Guild Wars 2

Look, I get it. GW2 is free to play with a cash shop. I have no problem with that and I am glad when the game makes money. If the game isn’t making money it won’t last and continue to be developed. I like the game so I want to see it succeed.

I don’t buy gems with real money. Sorry. It isn’t that I’d be unwilling to, I’m just really good at making gold. So I don’t need to. But again, I want the game to succeed. I’ll buy expansions and what not. And I know my guildies buy gems sometimes.

Now here’s what’s pissed me off. It’s something really simple. Your Black Friday event is advertising Black Lion Keys at 50% off if you buy 25. The prices as advertised are:

1 for 125 gems
5 for 450 gems
25 for 1560 gems (50% off!!)

Now, for anyone with a shred of common sense or math skills, that doesn’t add up. The real cost of 25 keys is currently 450 × 5 for 2250. Half off would be 1125, not 1560. 1560 is only half price if you assume I’m buying 25 keys individually. And who would do that?

This is just one silly example, but it illustrates a problem in the marketing of the gem shop. You seem to think your customers are stupid. We really aren’t. We know bad math when we see it. And I don’t personally have any problem at all with pricing your gems at 125 per, or 5 for 450, or with offering 25 keys at 69.33% of the regular price instead of buying 5×5 (that’s the real discount) or however you happen to price things. Just please, don’t act like we’re stupid.

Like it or not, your economy is being driven by smart players. You can make -some- money off dumb players by hoping they don’t notice a bad deal when they see one. But you can make a lot more money off smart players by offering a good deal instead. Just FYI.

Observation offered with the best of intentions. Cause I like this game and want it to succeed.

I agree with you on this. This type of advertising & marketing is a real put off to people with any common sense.

I agree, this is just plain shameful. It is obvious they only added the extra “25” category in order to do this deceitful ploy. If they had advertised the 5-pack as 50% off they would have actually had to list it at 225 gems (50% off of its original price of 450), but instead they found a loophole and added a new category which if it had existed previously would NEVER have sold for 3125 gems (since it would offer WORSE value than the 5-pack, being the same value as buying 25 singles). Absolutely disgusting.

The embarrassing thing is I actually bought one (thankfully not with real money, which frankly I never want to give them any more of at this point) because I didn’t check the math and assumed Anet was trustworthy enough to not pull this kind of moneygrabbing crap. Silly me. That’s a mistake I’ll never make again. You are ruining your brand more and more with every passing week and that is a truly sad state of affairs.

If you go to a shop and you see three packages…

1 pie for 5$.
2 pies for 8$.
4 pies for 14$.

For me, these 4 pies are indeed 30% off.

You can not argue that you should count the discount based on the ALREADY DISCOUNTED items, because that is not how any marketing sales does it: you always show the discount from the INITIAL price.

If this insult your intelligence, then please, never do groceries in real life!

^this

let’s take an easy example on how you guys see it :

1 item = 1$
then, 25% if you buy 4 so 4items = 3$
then, 50% if you buy 8 so 8 items = 4$

that seems logic uh?

Now, here’s the way you would sell this same stuff :

1item=1$
25% so 4 items = 3$
50% according to the price of the 4 pack so 8 = 6*50/100 = 3$.

Man, open a shop that work that way and i’ll come right now.

25 * 125 * 0.5 = 1562, thats roughly 1560, makes perfect sense to me. Its not 50% off the already discounted price for buying 25.

Its still cheaper than before! If someone wanted to buy keys, now is the time, thats not taking advantage of stupid customers, thats smart customers taking advantage of a good offer.

They put the keys in at a discount and you complain. If they sent you $100 bills, you’d complain how they were folded.

The other thread exactly like this except with a dev response has more information. The short version is: there is inconsistency between the stones and the keys with what they consider to be the advertised % off (base price vs. discounted price). Also, if you buy gems with gold today and buy the most discounted key package, you’re still actually losing money (as compared to buying keys at any point before the Black Friday deals were announced).

@OP, although it may seems misleading to you, you are not actually using common sense.

Let me break down some math for you :

> 1 × 125 = 125 gems per key
> 25 × 1560 = 1560/25 = 62.4 gems per key

[1-(62.4/125)*100] = 50.008% off

The 5 pieces for 450 gems is a different promotion packet with different discount. (NOT 50%).

> 1 × 125 gems = 125 gems per key
> 5 × 450 gems = 450/5 = 90 gems per key

[1- (90/125)] * 100 = 28% off

It’s simple marketing people.
You receive the half price discount on the original price of the product, not half price on an already discounted product.

angan, Thank you, you said that beautifully and accurately.
why people cannot understand that the discount is on the original price and not a discounted price is beyond me

birdiegirl.2463:

angan, Thank you, you said that beautifully and accurately.
why people cannot understand that the discount is on the original price and not a discounted price is beyond me

Because people want the world when it comes to discounting.

I hear it everyday.

Drunken Mad King.8193:

birdiegirl.2463:

angan, Thank you, you said that beautifully and accurately.
why people cannot understand that the discount is on the original price and not a discounted price is beyond me

Because people want the world when it comes to discounting.

I hear it everyday.

I don’t believe that this is the issue.

This certainly isn’t an absurd marketing strategy, but I am a bit surprised to see it here.

I remember that one site would try to have players spend a couple of hundred dollars (or more) on their virtual currency by advertising 60% off, 70% off, 75% off, large discounts around there. However, as is the case here with the keys, they would base the discount off of the base (lowest) ratio. What many players didn’t realise was that on purchases above $50, the site would begin applying a minor discount, which would also increase as the purchase sum increases. Ultimately, the 60-75% discount only ever offered be worth 5-25% off of what you would have to pay on a normal day.
This tactic worked remarkably well because people who don’t normally purchase large sums at once or haven’t investigated it personally wouldn’t know about that discount.

Anyways, I took a screenshot of the front page in-game. I don’t feel like uploading it, so I’m just going to type out what it says:
~~~~
Black Lion Keys

(was 3125)
Buy 25 for: 1560
50% off!

Buy 1 for: 125

Buy 5 for: 450
~~~~

Now let’s analyse this logically.
5 × 125 = 625

However, the “Buy 5 for: 450” does not include a “28% off!” nor does it include a “was 625” in brackets.

I did not pay much attention to Key prices before now, so I’m just speculating this. (Apparently the price is normally 2250?…) Since the 5-pack price did not include any discount details (i.e. the normal base price for the 5-pack, nor the discount percentage), the 25-pack probably did not include any discount details (i.e. the normal pace price for the 25-pack, nor the discount percentage). The normal price (2250?…) is no longer visible, so a comparison cannot be made without further research.

Perhaps the figures change when you explore a bit further, but the first impression is what would trigger impulse purchases. Although a couple of calculations would reveal the reality of the discount, it’s intentionally misleading; customers would buy without investigation if they feel that they can trust the vendor.

A more communicative, user-friendly format would be either one of the following:

1. Change the “50%” to a “30%” and change the “was: 3125” to “was: 2250”

2. Leave the 25-pack alone, but add both “28% off!” and “was: 625” to the 5-pack.

I have to agree with the OP on the misleading nature of the sale. Yes, it is 50% off of buying them individually, but one look at how the Fine Transmutation Stone sale should demonstrate that something is a bit off.

Notice how the Fine Transmutation Stones come in packages of 5, 10 and 25? Notice how they all say 40% off? They don’t say 40% off, 46% off, and 52% off of the cost if buying them at the most expensive rate possible. They all show discounts off the already discounted price of buying them in bulk, whereas the Black Lion Key’s discount represents the discount off buying them individually. Not to mention, if all we’re concerned with is discount off the individual price, then the Buy 5 offer should have “28% off” on it to avoid confusion as well.

Saying that people shouldn’t complain because it’s cheaper is a lame, straw man argument. The complaint is over the inconsistency and the likelihood to mislead some buyers.

birdiegirl.2463:

angan, Thank you, you said that beautifully and accurately.
why people cannot understand that the discount is on the original price and not a discounted price is beyond me

Take a look at the discount on the other two items and maybe you’ll understand. Neither of the other two are discounts on the original price. Perhaps you’d like to revise your disbelief?

Sounds more to me like smart kitten players trying to con Anet.

The 5 keys for 450 gems is, in itself, a deal already, since that means each key is worth 90 gems now according to this package.

25 keys for 1560 gems (the exact number is 1562.5 btw) is another deal that is calculated off of the base value of the key (125 gems each). Exact same deal as the one above (discount based on the base value of the item).

Smart marketing? Yeah. Players are smarter? lol I fail to see how. As others has mentioned above, no companies in their right mind would do a discount on an already discounted item. I will never run into such a deal, because just about everyone would have buy them all out as soon as they noticed it.

TL;DR When was the last time you go shopping?

Duplicated.4715:

Smart marketing? Yeah. Players are smarter? lol I fail to see how. As others has mentioned above, no companies in their right mind would do a discount on an already discounted item. I will never run into such a deal, because just about everyone would have buy them all out as soon as they noticed it.

Then ANet is not in their right mind. Both Black Lion Merchant Express and Fine Transmutation Stone are discounted off an already existing discount. Do the math. =P

Its called a bulk discount…. you buy in bulk you get a lower price per item.

Here is where OP failed. He/she decided arbitrarily to use the price for buying 5 keys (which has a lower price per key) instead of the price of a single key to make the math work in favor of his/her complaint.

Just like He/she used the price for the 5 keys bundle, we can use the price for a single key to prove him/her wrong.

Cancer.9065:

Its called a bulk discount…. you buy in bulk you get a lower price per item.

Here is where OP failed. He/she decided arbitrarily to use the price for buying 5 keys (which has a lower price per key) instead of the price of a single key to make the math work in favor of his complain.

Just like He/she used the price for the 5 keys bundle, we can use the price for a single key to prove him/her wrong.

Read the whole thread.

Black Lion Merchant Express, 35 gems for 1.

Buy 5 for 50 gems, was 125 gems, 60% off.

That’s 1 for 10 gems, or 71.5% off if you go by individual price. Care to explain the difference?

Serenity.6149:

Cancer.9065:

Its called a bulk discount…. you buy in bulk you get a lower price per item.

Here is where OP failed. He/she decided arbitrarily to use the price for buying 5 keys (which has a lower price per key) instead of the price of a single key to make the math work in favor of his complain.

Just like He/she used the price for the 5 keys bundle, we can use the price for a single key to prove him/her wrong.

Read the whole thread.

Black Lion Merchant Express, 35 gems for 1.

Buy 5 for 50 gems, was 125 gems, 60% off.

That’s 1 for 10 gems, or 71.5% off if you go by individual price. Care to explain the difference?

No need to read the whole thread.

I’m answering OP his / her math while correct is misleading. If you want me to check your math I can, bu would need to log in later to check the TP as I only have the pricing info for the keys.

Cancer.9065:

Serenity.6149:

Cancer.9065:

Its called a bulk discount…. you buy in bulk you get a lower price per item.

Here is where OP failed. He/she decided arbitrarily to use the price for buying 5 keys (which has a lower price per key) instead of the price of a single key to make the math work in favor of his complain.

Just like He/she used the price for the 5 keys bundle, we can use the price for a single key to prove him/her wrong.

Read the whole thread.

Black Lion Merchant Express, 35 gems for 1.

Buy 5 for 50 gems, was 125 gems, 60% off.

That’s 1 for 10 gems, or 71.5% off if you go by individual price. Care to explain the difference?

No need to read the whole thread.

I’m answering OP his / her math while correct is misleading. If you want me to check your math I can, bu would need to log in later to check the TP as I only have the pricing info for the keys.

You can’t conclude the OP is misleading without doing the math first. The only place OP failed was by not presenting the math on all the other items as well, but judging from most people’s adverse reaction to math, it was probably for the best.

You can do the math from the numbers I already quoted for one of the other sale items, unless you’re saying you think I may be fudging the numbers for my argument as well. =P

I’ve attached a screenshot of the prices for your convenience.

Black Lion Merchant Express
————————————————————
Individual Price: 35 gems

Bulk Rate for 5: 125 gems
Sale Price for 5: 50 gems
Discount: 60% off bulk rate for 5

If we used the individual rate, it would be 50/175 or 71% off.

Fine Transmutation Stone
————————————————————
Individual Price: n/a

Bulk Rate for 5: 200 gems
Sale Rate for 5: 120 gems
Discount: 40% off bulk rate for 5

Bulk Rate for 10: 360 gems
Sale Rate for 10: 215 gems
Discount: 40% off bulk rate for 10

Bulk Rate for 25: 800 gems
Sale Rate for 25: 480 gems
Discount: 40% off bulk rate for 25

Black Lion Key
————————————————————
Individual Rate: 125 gems
Sale Rate for 25: 1560 gems
Discount: 50% off individual rate for 25

As a note, neither the OP nor I are asking for anything more than increased transparency. We are not asking to receive an even lower rate on keys, nor for the world, etc, as some are suggesting. We are not complaining that the sale is not good enough. Those are straw man arguments and completely irrelevant. We’re asking for consistency.

When I got the e-mail I fully expected to get the 5 key pack at 50% off. It did not mention this new/invented 25 key purchase. Really don’t care about the math, when Anet invented the new 25 key purchase ( I am just short of the required amount) my gems stay in my pocket. Just a ripoff imho.

So did I make a mistake or not?… Do people agree or disagree my math?..

Cancer.9065:

Serenity.6149:

Read the whole thread.

No need to read the whole thread.
.

Oh.

…

Duplicated.4715:

Sounds more to me like smart kitten players trying to con Anet.

The 5 keys for 450 gems is, in itself, a deal already, since that means each key is worth 90 gems now according to this package.

25 keys for 1560 gems (the exact number is 1562.5 btw) is another deal that is calculated off of the base value of the key (125 gems each). Exact same deal as the one above (discount based on the base value of the item).

Smart marketing? Yeah. Players are smarter? lol I fail to see how. As others has mentioned above, no companies in their right mind would do a discount on an already discounted item. I will never run into such a deal, because just about everyone would have buy them all out as soon as they noticed it.

TL;DR When was the last time you go shopping?

Six hours ago, for stationery.

Stationery store sells a mechanical pencil for $3. The manufacturer also sells the mechanical pencil in a 2-pack, which is essentially two mechanical pencils in plastic+cardboard packaging. This 2-pack is sold for $5.

When the store has a sale and puts a $1 discount on the 2-pack, it becomes $4. They say that’s 20% off.

They don’t calculate : $4 / $6 for two individual pencils = 66%
They don’t call that 33% off.

Same concept.

Serenity.6149:

As a note, neither the OP nor I are asking for anything more than increased transparency. We are not asking to receive an even lower rate on keys, nor for the world, etc, as some are suggesting. We are not complaining that the sale is not good enough. Those are straw man arguments and completely irrelevant.

I agree. It’s not a matter of “I’m not happy with the discount I’m receiving,” but rather “the actual details of the sale should be less ambiguous i.e. clearer.”

Yeah, they’re straw hat arguments. I haven’t heard that term used in so long… Also, this is unnecessary:

TL;DR When was the last time you go shopping?

It seems the heart of this argument is the discrepancies between the way they present the discounts with one item vs another item. With the stones, the “WAS” price lists what the actual price was for the discount packs before Black Friday, versus the keys which lists the price of 25 individual keys (not the discount pack price) before Black Friday.

While it may seem confusing, or even deceptive, stores across the nation do this every day. Have you ever noticed that, for example, stores will list some soda prices by $ per weight, and some by $ per volume? Two different ratios for two similar products, side-by-side on the shelf. They do this to make one product seem more appealing than another. Does it fool people? Sometimes. But anybody who has used common sense while shopping reads labels and makes the necessary conversions in their head to find the best deal.

• The short of it:
  When you decide to buy something, the smart course of action would be to research the price (or any current “deal”) to see if you’re being swindled. It doesn’t matter if they list a deal price against the product’s individual price, use a different unit of measure, or tell you the cost in lire. Always do your research, because impulse buying is the worst way to purchase anything.

Optimist Prime.3860:

It seems the heart of this argument is the discrepancies between the way they present the discounts with one item vs another item. With the stones, the “WAS” price lists what the actual price was for the discount packs before Black Friday, versus the keys which lists the price of 25 individual keys (not the discount pack price) before Black Friday.

While it may seem confusing, or even deceptive, stores across the nation do this every day. Have you ever noticed that, for example, stores will list some soda prices by $ per weight, and some by $ per volume? Two different ratios for two similar products, side-by-side on the shelf. They do this to make one product seem more appealing than another. Does it fool people? Sometimes. But anybody who has used common sense while shopping reads labels and makes the necessary conversions in their head to find the best deal.

• The short of it:
  When you decide to buy something, the smart course of action would be to research the price (or any current “deal”) to see if you’re being swindled. It doesn’t matter if they list a deal price against the product’s individual price, use a different unit of measure, or tell you the cost in lire. Always do your research, because impulse buying is the worst way to purchase anything.

Agreed.

See, this response is actually constructive to the discussion (and I thank you for it). While we may have differing opinions on the importance of consistency, everything you state is indeed correct.

To ArenaNet – Thank you for correcting the problem that I identified here in all subsequent sale days. Since this initial issue, discounts have been appropriately applied both to individual items and to the bulk packages.

To those who choose to think this was complaining, and that I was full of it for bringing this up – see above.

Note – I am under no illusions ArenaNet is bringing us deeper discounts as a consequence. They are most likely only presenting those discounts more honestly. But I’m fine with that, as I always was.

Final note – If most of us are buying bulk items in bulk already, offering a discount based on the individual price is, indeed, disingenuous. That’s like advertising four winter tires at 50% off and then applying it against the price you’d normally pay for one multiplied by four, when most people buy four at a time and are budgeting based on the price for four. You can claim otherwise, if you like. But it’s still oddball math.

This was never about what ArenaNet must do or must not do. It isn’t even about right and wrong. It’s only a question of whether they choose to respect their players’ intelligence or if they prefer flea market economics. I’m very pleased they’ve taken the high road, and I respect their willingness to adjust.