Guild Wars 2

Charismatic Harm.9683:

But….but….aren’t the odds 100% that you’ll get something from the Black Lion Chest? So, you ALWAYS win. Every single time, you win. You never lose.

You may not get what YOU want….but you ALWAYS get something.

There’s actually no gambling involved at all when you win every time.

This isn’t the point at all, everyone of those items are purchasable by other means. If i want a booster pack i’ll buy one, if i want a backpack i’ll buy one, if i want dyes i’ll buy them.

Ursan.7846:

munkiman.3068:

I won’t comment on the comprehension/communication thing, it adds nothing.

Then don’t bring it up.

munkiman.3068:

You can’t use gambling here as a valid argument, if i buy in, i know what my odds are and the possible return on my bid.

Do you know what are the odds of a Booster Pack in Yugioh containing a rare card?

Man, those vendors were sure unethical.

Good, continue to focus on the ethics, then read the now 2 posts which i admit i went over the top including that in my argument.

In your rare card scenario, if you really want one, i bet you can buy one.

munkiman.3068:

This isn’t the point at all, everyone of those items are purchasable by other means. If i want a booster pack i’ll buy one, if i want a backpack i’ll buy one, if i want dyes i’ll buy them.

So your entire point is that it’s not good to have something obtained purely through random chance, as opposed to a choice between random chance and a guarenteed purchase through the TP or by other means.

Then we’re in agreement that it’s stupid

However.

munkiman.3068:

Does it make it a fair ethical practice? Not even remotely.

No, it’s not unethical at all. And I’m glad that you realized how stupid that notion was.

munkiman.3068:

Charismatic Harm.9683:

But….but….aren’t the odds 100% that you’ll get something from the Black Lion Chest? So, you ALWAYS win. Every single time, you win. You never lose.

You may not get what YOU want….but you ALWAYS get something.

There’s actually no gambling involved at all when you win every time.

This isn’t the point at all, everyone of those items are purchasable by other means. If i want a booster pack i’ll buy one, if i want a backpack i’ll buy one, if i want dyes i’ll buy them.

Actually….that’s EXACTLY my point. The definition of gambling and “winning” are what seem to be in question.

These skins are not the only items exclusive to the Black Lion Chest. Here is a list of all of the other things you can only get from the chest (Source: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Black_Lion_Chest):

• Tonics
  • 1 Endless Mystery Tonic

• Boosters
  • Armor Booster
  • Speed Booster
  • Strength Booster

• Backpacks
  • Pink Quaggan Backpack Set
  • Tiger Charr Backpack Set

• Influence
  • 1 Small Guild Discovery
  • 1 Medium Guild Discovery
  • 1 Large Guild Discovery

• Tools
  • 1 Black Lion Harvesting Sickle
  • 1 Black Lion Logging Axe
  • 1 Black Lion Mining Pick

• Everlasting items
  • 1 Permanent Bank Access Contract
  • 1 Permanent Black Lion Merchant Contract
  • 1 Permanent Trading Post Express Contract
  • 1 Permanent Hair Stylist Contract

When opening a Black Lion Chest, you always get something so, in the sense of gambling, you always win. If it were gambling, then you could lose, which means you would get nothing. That’s not the case here. Again….you always get something.

The problem players are having is that they’re not getting exactly what they want and the only way to get them is from the chest. Whether or not they find the other items in the chest of value to them, that doesn’t mean they’re getting nothing. It means they’re getting “nothing of value to them”. There’s a BIG difference.

All of the items on the list above are “rare”. Players are choosing to select a single item from a list of “rare” items that they want as the only thing of value in the chest. While this may be the case for them, it is not the case when discussing the chest in general. What one player deems “valuable” is not what all players deem “valuable”.

As for the gambling argument…it’s silly. Black Lion Chests are not gambling because you never lose.

Ursan.7846:

Do you know what are the odds of a Booster Pack in Yugioh containing a rare card?

Well, not to pick nits, but the odds of a rare in a booster pack are published/known:
Yugioh booster pack content

MTG booster pack content

As to which rare thing was in the pack, well you could calculate out the odds because the pool of cards the pack draws from is known and the make up of the packs is known.

The general contents of a BLC are known, but the problem is that even though there’s a known pool of items that can go into a particular slot, we have no idea how rare a particular rare is, and we have no guarantee that the chest will contain at least one rare or uncommon.

@Charismatic

That’s why i did it anyway… I’m not arguing the gambling issue at all. Everyone of those items are purchasable by other means or have a similar item you can purchase outside of getting them from chests. I’ve actually gotten a Permanent Hair Stylist Contract from them which i promptly sold on the TP. I’m not even arguing the value of any of the items, since they actually have defined values, accept for one, the tickets for fused skins, which is how this whole thing got heated to begin with. I’m unsure why you’re quoting me when you talk about gambling and winning?

I don’t go to Vegas and gamble money, there are other ways to obtain money.

Unless it’s for a good cause, I don’t buy raffle tickets at a chance to win a car, I can simply go buy a car if that’s my goal.

I rarely play the lotto, but I do think at least some of the money is going to the schools, not enough IMHO, but at least there’s that.

Buying gems with cash i feel is also going to a good cause, but this skin thing they keep doing with these chests is simply annoying and unfair in my mind.

Charismatic Harm.9683:

These skins are not the only items exclusive to the Black Lion Chest. Here is a list of all of the other things you can only get from the chest (Source: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Black_Lion_Chest):

• Tonics
  • 1 Endless Mystery Tonic

You can get something similar enough with vanilla mystery tonics which are common and craftable.

• Boosters
  • Armor Booster
  • Speed Booster
  • Strength Booster

Consumables that are nice, but don’t give you something permanent.

• Backpacks
  • Pink Quaggan Backpack Set
  • Tiger Charr Backpack Set

You can buy items that are very similar/the same.

• Influence
  • 1 Small Guild Discovery
  • 1 Medium Guild Discovery
  • 1 Large Guild Discovery

• Tools
  • 1 Black Lion Harvesting Sickle
  • 1 Black Lion Logging Axe
  • 1 Black Lion Mining Pick

You can buy influence and harvesting tools (although the extra chance of a rare harvest is nice, the low stack size stinks).

• Everlasting items
  • 1 Permanent Bank Access Contract
  • 1 Permanent Black Lion Merchant Contract
  • 1 Permanent Trading Post Express Contract
  • 1 Permanent Hair Stylist Contract

These can be bought from the TP right? (I’m not positive about all of them not being account bound)

I’m not arguing the point about chests always containing something – I agree that viewing keys as a “chance to win” doesn’t really sync up. My point is that all of these “only drop from chests” items are either temporary or have a substitute that can be purchased outright.

They continue to add gambling because people continue to fall for it.

The only solution is for players to stop buying anything gambling related from the gem store.

Pandemoniac.4739:

I’m not arguing the point about chests always containing something – I agree that viewing keys as a “chance to win” doesn’t really sync up. My point is that all of these “only drop from chests” items are either temporary or have a substitute that can be purchased outright.

If your argument is that there are substitutes for those items, I’ll agree….there are. There are also substitutes for weapon skins too….LOTS of them. A substitute is something similar, but not exactly the same….right?

That’s not really the argument though. The argument is that THESE skins are not available anywhere else. I see that as a good thing….a VERY good thing, in fact.

Players complain there isn’t enough rarity or customization in the game and that everyone looks the same. Having one of these skins is “prestigious” in the minds of some players. The argument boils down to the same thing that it does in every other thread regarding a prestigious item…..

“I want that shiny, but….”

• “I don’t want to pay that much for it.”
• “I want other ways to get it.”
• “I don’t want to spend real money for it.”
• “I don’t want to gamble for it.”

Those are all subjective opinions. If a player doesn’t like the method of acquisition, then don’t participate. If they don’t like how much it costs, don’t buy it. If they don’t want to spend real money on it, then don’t spend real money on it. If you don’t want to “gamble”, then don’t. As long as players continue to support the methods of acquisition, ArenaNet will continue to use that business model. Money talks….as does the lack of money.

Charismatic Harm.9683:

If your argument is that there are substitutes for those items, I’ll agree….there are. There are also substitutes for weapon skins too….LOTS of them. A substitute is something similar, but not exactly the same….right?

That’s not really the argument though. The argument is that THESE skins are not available anywhere else. I see that as a good thing….a VERY good thing, in fact.

All weapons skins are not substitutes for all other weapon skins.

This short bow is really cool looking in my opinion:
http://www.guildwars2guru.com/gallery/image/4387-fused-shortbow-skin/

What skin would I go buy that is similar but maybe not quite as cool? I don’t see anything on Argos Soft that has the same flame forged industrial look to it.

The destroyer bow is flame forged but organic looking.

The avenger’s bow is sort of mechanical looking, but it’s too shiny and sleek.

There’s nothing wrong with rare. There’s nothing wrong with me not being able to afford everything I want. The problem is that I could spend millions of gold and not get that skin or anything that even comes close to being that skin. That’s why folks are upset.

Is it evil/unethical/unfair? I don’t think so. It’s just not a happy situation and I don’t think it’s irrational for folks to be disappointed or upset about it.

Edit – Sorry I missed this part:

Charismatic Harm.9683:

If they don’t like how much it costs, don’t buy it.

How much does a fusion weapon ticket cost? That’s the crux of the matter.

Pandemoniac.4739:

The problem is that I could spend millions of gold and not get that skin or anything that even comes close to being that skin. That’s why folks are upset.

Is it evil/unethical/unfair? I don’t think so. It’s just not a happy situation and I don’t think it’s irrational for folks to be disappointed or upset about it.

Basically this. This method was an incredibly stupid move by Anet. Unethical/evil? Not in the least. My only hope is that this method did terrible overall sales so that they do not do it again.

Gambling is defined at the moment where you enter a game of chance in exchange for money. Gambling is not defined by the outcome. Gambling is not defined by the availability of alternatives to purchase any of the prices. This is the very European cultural distinction/misunderstanding at the core.

The size of the German gambling market is roughly 32.000.000.000€ (32 billion). That’s roughly 500€ per adult on average. Which is an answer to the question of why the little leagues of gambling (DLC, Trading Card Games, Ü-Eier) get not hunted down relentlessly. But also raises the question of money laundering if you ask me.

FourthVariety.5463:

Gambling is defined at the moment where you enter a game of chance in exchange for money.

By this statement alone, Black Lion Chests are not gambling. Black Lion Keys are purchased with Gems….not money.

Gems can be purchased with either money or in-game gold.

Edit:

I get it….I really do. Players are upset because they want the skins from the chest and there’s no guarantee they’ll get it no matter how many keys they buy or chests they unlock.

As long as players continue to support these methods, ArenaNet will continue to put “awesome stuff” in these, or similar, chests.

Players can complain all they want, but nothing will change until ArenaNet isn’t making money using these types of business practices.

Charismatic Harm.9683:

FourthVariety.5463:

Gambling is defined at the moment where you enter a game of chance in exchange for money.

By this statement alone, Black Lion Chests are not gambling. Black Lion Keys are purchased with Gems….not money.

Gems can be purchased with either money or in-game gold.

Since there is an exchange rate, you could say that gems have a value, which in turn translates to in game gold. Just because you gamble with chips which can be traded for money, doesn’t all the suddenly make it not gambling anymore. Not that i really care about the whole gambling argument, i’m just pointing that out.

Ursan.7846:

Pandemoniac.4739:

The problem is that I could spend millions of gold and not get that skin or anything that even comes close to being that skin. That’s why folks are upset.

Is it evil/unethical/unfair? I don’t think so. It’s just not a happy situation and I don’t think it’s irrational for folks to be disappointed or upset about it.

Basically this. This method was an incredibly stupid move by Anet. Unethical/evil? Not in the least. My only hope is that this method did terrible overall sales so that they do not do it again.

Unfortunately, at least in my case, it sold pretty kitten well. Which is most of the reason i’m on here complaining about it. That and it’s slow at work

munkiman.3068:

Since there is an exchange rate, you could say that gems have a value, which in turn translates to in game gold. Just because you gamble with chips which can be traded for money, doesn’t all the suddenly make it not gambling anymore. Not that i really care about the whole gambling argument, i’m just pointing that out.

I don’t particularly care about the gambling argument either, but I think the fact that the conversion is one way (gold can’t be converted to cash) would be an important legal distinction.

Charismatic Harm.9683:

Edit:

I get it….I really do. Players are upset because they want the skins from the chest and there’s no guarantee they’ll get it no matter how many keys they buy or chests they unlock.

As long as players continue to support these methods, ArenaNet will continue to put “awesome stuff” in these, or similar, chests.

Players can complain all they want, but nothing will change until ArenaNet isn’t making money using these types of business practices.

This is where i hope we differ. I actually have hope in the fact that they can come up with other ways to make money off the shop, I guess i hold out hope for them to listen and do the “right” thing.

munkiman.3068:

Charismatic Harm.9683:

FourthVariety.5463:

Gambling is defined at the moment where you enter a game of chance in exchange for money.

By this statement alone, Black Lion Chests are not gambling. Black Lion Keys are purchased with Gems….not money.

Gems can be purchased with either money or in-game gold.

Since there is an exchange rate, you could say that gems have a value, which in turn translates to in game gold. Just because you gamble with chips which can be traded for money, doesn’t all the suddenly make it not gambling anymore. Not that i really care about the whole gambling argument, i’m just pointing that out.

You can say that Gems have a value all you want, but in reality, they don’t. If they do, then there would be somewhere that I could exchange my Gems for real money. If that exists, please show me.

The conversion of money into something else is a one way street. Nothing in Guild Wars 2 has a monetary value that can be directly associated with it (unless by means against the EULA or ToS).

Pandemoniac.4739:

munkiman.3068:

Since there is an exchange rate, you could say that gems have a value, which in turn translates to in game gold. Just because you gamble with chips which can be traded for money, doesn’t all the suddenly make it not gambling anymore. Not that i really care about the whole gambling argument, i’m just pointing that out.

I don’t particularly care about the gambling argument either, but I think the fact that the conversion is one way (gold can’t be converted to cash) would be an important legal distinction.

I don’t doubt that there have been plenty of legal discussions over this and I would imagine ANET isn’t to worried about it, but in this case a key cost $1.20 usd and you can clearly attach a monetary value on it. According to the Germany law argument that constitutes gambling there, even if all you are winning is pretty pixels. I’m no lawyer, German or otherwise, but if it is possible to get sued over it in Germany, maybe they should just pull the keys from the store there.

munkiman.3068:

Pandemoniac.4739:

munkiman.3068:

Since there is an exchange rate, you could say that gems have a value, which in turn translates to in game gold. Just because you gamble with chips which can be traded for money, doesn’t all the suddenly make it not gambling anymore. Not that i really care about the whole gambling argument, i’m just pointing that out.

I don’t particularly care about the gambling argument either, but I think the fact that the conversion is one way (gold can’t be converted to cash) would be an important legal distinction.

I don’t doubt that there have been plenty of legal discussions over this and I would imagine ANET isn’t to worried about it, but in this case a key cost $1.20 usd and you can clearly attach a monetary value on it. According to the Germany law argument that constitutes gambling there, even if all you are winning is pretty pixels. I’m no lawyer, German or otherwise, but if it is possible to get sued over it in Germany, maybe they should just pull the keys from the store there.

I think it’s the addition of the second layer of purchase, the fact that Gems do not have to be “purchased” with real money, Keys do not have to be purchased with Gems, and that Keys are not the only things in the Gem Store that can be purchased with Gems that gives them the legal grounds for them to fight a lawsuit regarding this, or any matter associated to it.

Charismatic Harm.9683:

munkiman.3068:

Pandemoniac.4739:

munkiman.3068:

Since there is an exchange rate, you could say that gems have a value, which in turn translates to in game gold. Just because you gamble with chips which can be traded for money, doesn’t all the suddenly make it not gambling anymore. Not that i really care about the whole gambling argument, i’m just pointing that out.

I don’t particularly care about the gambling argument either, but I think the fact that the conversion is one way (gold can’t be converted to cash) would be an important legal distinction.

I don’t doubt that there have been plenty of legal discussions over this and I would imagine ANET isn’t to worried about it, but in this case a key cost $1.20 usd and you can clearly attach a monetary value on it. According to the Germany law argument that constitutes gambling there, even if all you are winning is pretty pixels. I’m no lawyer, German or otherwise, but if it is possible to get sued over it in Germany, maybe they should just pull the keys from the store there.

I think it’s the addition of the second layer of purchase, the fact that Gems do not have to be “purchased” with real money, Keys do not have to be purchased with Gems, and that Keys are not the only things in the Gem Store that can be purchased with Gems that gives them the legal grounds for them to fight a lawsuit regarding this, or any matter associated to it.

hmm that might fly here just fine, but i’m not so sure based on what our Germany friend posted. Basically if a Germany player bought 150 gems and then bought a key with those gems, and someone could prove it without a doubt… Not sure that’s worth being tied up in red tape over. But then again, this is all theoretical since i have no desire to research the gambling laws in Germany. Anyway, enough crazy, semi-off-topic talk.

FourthVariety.5463:

German Gambling F.A.Q.:

Why can you buy BLKs? As long as nobody sues, you can pretty much do what you want in Germany.

Does the BLC constitute gambling as defined by German law: YES.

Does it matter in Germany whether you win real money or pixels: NO

Does it matter that buying a chance to win with money is but one chance among others? No

When does “gambling” trigger in Germany? The moment you pay more than 50 cent for a ticket to win something.

So what if BLCs cost 50cent? People tried with, people were shut down: Beschluss des VG Münster vom 14.06.2010, Az.: 1 L 155/10.

What is the deal with German law being split into gambling for money and gambling? If you “gamble for money” it is called lottery that’s all. Semantics.

Is GW2 a public venue? German gambling legislation also applies to non-public venues and membership-only environments.

When does gambling take place in Germany in the eyes of the law? Whenever you can participate in any type of gambling while your body is in Germany. Playing poker on a Chinese sever while sitting in Berlin still means you are gambling.

Do you need a legal precedent in Germany to start legal battle over this? No.

What other risks are involved in case of a legal battle? For players, it is the police securing evidence, i.e. bagging and tagging servers.

Anything else? All advertisements aiming at participation at gambling (make no mistake, there is a giant state monopoly on gambling in Germany) must declare the chances of winning.

So what if I challenged for a game of dice in the pub? Devil may care.

Who is in the crossfire the most? German government running lottery and sports bets is huge business, they will defend this market aggressively. f2p and video games are just below the radar.

What has the EU to say about it? They are in a tug of war with das Merkel about the German state monopoly on gambling.

What do the heads of the federal states of Germany say? Do you want to be the governor explaining why gave away millions in revenue by opening up gambling schemes to companies?

My father-in-law is a Sous Chef. He taught me some recipes for braised short ribs, to which I now make for my wife. That doesn’t mean I’m now an a expert cook, nor does it mean I can call myself a Sous Chef on my resume either.

Your insistence on quoting German law, something which you admit you aren’t an expert in, to argue gambling might have other reasons. I’ve already shut down your argument from my legal background, but now allow me to assist you with my psychology background. I think, and tell me if I’m wrong, that you’re angry at the Black Lion Chests because you failed to get what you wanted. The emotional pain you are feeling is a byproduct of the desire to get a certain item, through a means with no guaranteed outcome. I feel your pain, as I too have rolled the dice. It is human nature to feel anger and regret, but realize that attacking the game for personal choices you’ve made is not the best solution. I think the first step would be to take a deep breath outside, and allow your anger disappear into the air.

A wise man once said: Anger leads to hate, and hate leads to suffering.

As I said very often, it does not matter if you actually buy the keys with gems. Else casinos using casino tokens would be legal without a license, which they are not.

@Smooth Penguin
My involvement with Black Lion Keys is doing a speedrun guide for a German website. I farmed a few keys, made a nice video, even got a fused skin because I am a lucker noob. I did not even trade it in yet, because I care so little about the actual contents. If it was possible, I would send it to you. I find it entertaining that you use a three way approach to defuse my argument. You claim I was angry, you made an unsustainable analogy and you take issue with not getting the information first hand form the chief expert lawyer of the European Union on that topic. All I can say, the topic was brought to me, I did the best to pass it on as best I could, if people attack me with the same arguments while ignoring that I already posted statements regarding those arguments, then you will find I can be quite enduring repeating myself.

I think I understand his point, despite some flawed anaologies of chips in casinos (can’t convert gems to money, unlike chips). He says it doesn’t matter whether you can buy the gems with gold. The fact that you can buy them with money is what counts. According to him, this triggers his national gambling laws, where you need a permit to even hold a raffle.

Edit: I like the card deck analogy. If those “magic, the gathering” cards can be sold in Germany, so can black lion keys.

Buttercup.5871:

I think I understand his point, despite some flawed anaologies of chips in casinos (can’t convert gems to money, unlike chips). He says it doesn’t matter whether you can buy the gems with gold. The fact that you can buy them with money is what counts. According to him, this triggers his national gambling laws, where you need a permit to even hold a raffle.

Yes, I understand his interpretation of the law as it’s written. The problem is that without citing any sort of a precedent for your interpretation of the text, it’s all just opinion. Even if you are actually a lawyer, your reading of the text of the law doesn’t hold any more water than my interpretation unless you point to a related case where a judge heard the arguments for and against and ruled on them.

Gems are not poker chips. They can’t be traded in for cash, and they can be used to purchase other items than black lion keys.

Opening a chest is not a game of chance. The chest always contains something, you just don’t know what it is until you open it.

By his logic, buying the game would be gambling. I have to pay money to buy play the game so that I can kill the dragon to open a chest which may or may not have a precursor in it.

I’m not versed in German law, so I hope your comment was directed at the right person. But you’re basically rehashing what has been stated before, including what has been said about those card packs you can buy. With which i said I agreed. The dragon chest comparison, however, goes nowhere and only dilutes the discussion.

Buttercup.5871:

The dragon chest comparison, however, goes nowhere and only dilutes the discussion.

In what way?

FourthVariety.5463:

Gambling is defined at the moment where you enter a game of chance in exchange for money. Gambling is not defined by the outcome. Gambling is not defined by the availability of alternatives to purchase any of the prices.

FourthVariety has insisted that opening BLCs are a game of chance and that even if your ability to open the chest is removed by several layers from the actual point where you paid money, that doesn’t affect its legal status as gambling. By that logic, opening any chest is a game of chance, and if you paid for the opportunity to open it, it’s gambling in Germany. You can’t open any chest in GW2 without paying for the game. Ergo, ANet and every other game with RNG mechanisms must get a gambling permit to be sold in Germany.

Yes, it’s absurd, which is my point. If folks want to talk about legalities, the discussion is going to inevitably head down the path of picking apart arguments. I find it a bit fun as long as it stays friendly, it moves forward, and folks avoid ad hominem.

In my opinion, the law was written to close loopholes used by real gambling operations to avoid the tax, and was never intended to apply to all games with an element of chance. No law can be written so that it covers all situations unambiguously. That’s why every sound legal system has trials with judges to apply the intent of the law to a specific situation.

The problem with is argument is that he believes gems have monetary value.

They don’t. Buying a BLK costs 0$. Buying the gems is what costs money.

Furthermore gems can be attained from in game currency, further reinforcing the above. If gems could not be attained via in game currency you could claim that gems are just a farce to get around the law and have a monetary equivalence.

Also remember you are not buying BLK chests off the Gem store, but BLK keys. The chests are entirely obtained playing the game. Keys can also be attained while playing the game.

The scenario would be. Germany player buys gems with cash then trades gems for keys, there is a direct monetary value there. Then said player proceeds to open chest, with the sole intention of a change for a skin. All of which would have to be provable in the Germany courts i imagine.

Pandemoniac.4739:

Charismatic Harm.9683:

If your argument is that there are substitutes for those items, I’ll agree….there are. There are also substitutes for weapon skins too….LOTS of them. A substitute is something similar, but not exactly the same….right?

That’s not really the argument though. The argument is that THESE skins are not available anywhere else. I see that as a good thing….a VERY good thing, in fact.

All weapons skins are not substitutes for all other weapon skins.

This short bow is really cool looking in my opinion:
http://www.guildwars2guru.com/gallery/image/4387-fused-shortbow-skin/

What skin would I go buy that is similar but maybe not quite as cool? I don’t see anything on Argos Soft that has the same flame forged industrial look to it.

The destroyer bow is flame forged but organic looking.

The avenger’s bow is sort of mechanical looking, but it’s too shiny and sleek.

But your own argument was that items that are not the same, but somehow potential substitutes makes those items different from the skins people are so concerned about. There is one way, and one way only to get the Tiger Charr backpack, and there is no perfect substitute for it. The difference between the Tiger Charr backpack and the Plush Charr backpack is essentially identical to the difference between the Fused Shortbow and the Molten Shortbow.

Syeria.4812:

Pandemoniac.4739:

This short bow is really cool looking in my opinion:
http://www.guildwars2guru.com/gallery/image/4387-fused-shortbow-skin/

What skin would I go buy that is similar but maybe not quite as cool? I don’t see

The difference between the Tiger Charr backpack and the Plush Charr backpack is essentially identical to the difference between the Fused Shortbow and the Molten Shortbow.

Nope it’s not, or folks would have been screaming bloody murder over the Tiger Charr backpack too. The charr backpack is a texture difference. Molten is a completely different skin. Frankly, I much prefer my Ebon Vanguard shortbow over the Molten.

Edit – attached the fused image for easier comparison

Syeria.4812:

Pandemoniac.4739:

Charismatic Harm.9683:

If your argument is that there are substitutes for those items, I’ll agree….there are. There are also substitutes for weapon skins too….LOTS of them. A substitute is something similar, but not exactly the same….right?

That’s not really the argument though. The argument is that THESE skins are not available anywhere else. I see that as a good thing….a VERY good thing, in fact.

All weapons skins are not substitutes for all other weapon skins.

This short bow is really cool looking in my opinion:
http://www.guildwars2guru.com/gallery/image/4387-fused-shortbow-skin/

What skin would I go buy that is similar but maybe not quite as cool? I don’t see anything on Argos Soft that has the same flame forged industrial look to it.

The destroyer bow is flame forged but organic looking.

The avenger’s bow is sort of mechanical looking, but it’s too shiny and sleek.

But your own argument was that items that are not the same, but somehow potential substitutes makes those items different from the skins people are so concerned about. There is one way, and one way only to get the Tiger Charr backpack, and there is no perfect substitute for it. The difference between the Tiger Charr backpack and the Plush Charr backpack is essentially identical to the difference between the Fused Shortbow and the Molten Shortbow.

Other than the Harvesting tools (which are arguable no better than using ori tools because of the extremely limited uses), everything else from the boxes can be purchased, crafted or otherwise substituted, equally or better than what it’s worth to use a key for. There is always the chance at getting the permanent stuff or the backpacks which are both worth a good amount of gold, but you might as well just trade your gems for gold, if your just going for the items to sell, since it might take you 100 bucks or more to get one.

FourthVariety.5463:

snip

Sorry mate. I’ve taken your opinions, and applied the law as it stands. Because you don’t understand law, I can tell why you are so confident in your responses. Yes US and German laws are different, but as the quoted statues you posted stand, Anet is no where near the definition of “gambling”. But you insist on having a debate, so allow me to further educate you. The following is taken from the User Agreement:

“vii: You acknowledge that Gems are digital material with no cash value, that no interest is paid or earned with respect to Gems, that Gems are not personal property, that the quantity of Gems in Your Account may be increased or decreased by NCSOFT in its sole and absolute discretion for any reason or no reason whatsoever, that You have no right to a refund related to Gems, that there is no right to transfer or exchange Gems, and that NCSOFT may limit Your license to use Gems with respect to any Item, service, Content or time period related thereto. You further acknowledge that additional restrictions related to Gems, as determined in the sole and absolute discretion of NCSOFT, may be applicable if, and when, Gems are made available to You or thereafter. NCSOFT may restrict the award or use of Gems based on Your country of residence or other factors.”

While you may have purchased Gems for your personal use, nothing you pay for is owned by you. You are paying for the right to use the software, and the right to use Gems. So the following applies: 1) Gems have no monetary value. 2) You do not own Gems

So by your own words:

FourthVariety.5463:

Gambling is defined at the moment where you enter a game of chance in exchange for money. Gambling is not defined by the outcome. Gambling is not defined by the availability of alternatives to purchase any of the prices. This is the very European cultural distinction/misunderstanding at the core.

There has been no exchange of money when opening Black Lion Chests, no matter how you look at it. You used Gems (0 value) to open chests (0 value). Your argument might have more merit IF you paid money directly for a chance to open these chests (i.e. $10 for 10 chests). But a stipulation would be that you couldn’t get Black Lion Chests any other way.

As it stands, your argument can be countered in multiple ways, regardless of which assumptions you base your theories on. Case dismissed.

Not so fast buddy. The rules are nice, but if a court finds – based on national gambling laws – this practice constitutes gambling in their country, no agreement you sign can invalidate that ruling. Also, I get a bit tired of quoting the same jurisprudence over and over that you can have “ownership”, like you own your passport (which is, technically, property of the state), over a virtual item. Regardless of the user agreement.

If a casino were to introduce blue chips, and made you sign an agreement that they hold no value, but nonetheless these chips allowed you to buy, say, green chips. And with those green chips, boy can you go nuts on that roulette table! Knowing full well that there’s this guy at the back door that’s willing to pay top dollar for some of the prizes you can win at that table. You think a court would say this establishment was legal?

Again, the reason why this isn’t gambling, the conclusion with which I agree, is not in the user agreement, or veiled attempt by a company to hide gambling. It’s the threshold (which, apparantly the card game , “magic: the gathering” does not meet, even in Germany) for what makes something gambling, and the lack of any interested party to enforce compliance in the event that there would be gambling involved, that is the problem.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

snip

The fact that ArenaNet claims nothing being of any value is of no consequence. Germany has shut down Fantasy Football Leagues in the past because they violated gambling rules. The remaining games had to change their rules quite considerably. It does not matter what the worth of the price is, as long as ArenaNet takes money for participation.

It also does not matter if you exchange money for gems before you then exchange gems for the “chance to win”. I cannot say this often enough. Even if ArenaNet claims gems had no value by writing it in their Eula. This is to prevent gambling with casino chips at a casino which does not cash out those chips and instead you sell them to another person not involved with the casino (wink).

It also does not matter if you “own” anything, or if the item you win is physical or not.

ok, i understand you run the risk or chance with gambling. I understand the fact that fused weapons are a luxury item as they are just skins.

But I have spent 200$ worth of gems on BL keys alone to get ONE fused weapon. Still haven’t gotten it. Doesn’t anyone think this is a little ridiculous and outrageous?

I agree, and sadly 99% of all the times in the chests are crap to begin with!

FourthVariety, am I gambling if I use gems to purchase gold to buy loot bags off the TP for the chance to “win” lodestones/cores? and if not, how is that different then using gems to buy keys to open BLC for the chance to “win” a rare skin?

@kitanas

That is another angle to screw with ArenaNet. Find the right judge and he might rule that gambling as well. Often enough the question is “shouldn’t that be gambling?” Most of the time the answer is “sure, yeah, but nobody sued yet, so lets continue doing it for as long as we can get away with it”.

Just because nobody is judging you for having dirty boots, doesn’t mean you hover over the mire.

wetwillyhip.7254:

ok, i understand you run the risk or chance with gambling. I understand the fact that fused weapons are a luxury item as they are just skins.

But I have spent 200$ worth of gems on BL keys alone to get ONE fused weapon. Still haven’t gotten it. Doesn’t anyone think this is a little ridiculous and outrageous?

The question is, does ANet think its ridiculous or outrageous? When a company puts out a product and buyers express intense interest by buying multiples of it then the company is going to feel that the product is a success. If some have buyer’s remorse afterwards, the company can still consider it a win if the money they make exceeds what they would have made selling the item without RNG. Some may be unhappy, but the company can look at their sales and conclude that the majority was not. I read somewhere that they feel people like “gambling” with the BL chests and I would say the sales validate their belief.

As long as people spend money on RNG then you can expect the gem store to sell it. It’s a business decision.

Astral Projections.7320:

wetwillyhip.7254:

ok, i understand you run the risk or chance with gambling. I understand the fact that fused weapons are a luxury item as they are just skins.

But I have spent 200$ worth of gems on BL keys alone to get ONE fused weapon. Still haven’t gotten it. Doesn’t anyone think this is a little ridiculous and outrageous?

The question is, does ANet think its ridiculous or outrageous? When a company puts out a product and buyers express intense interest by buying multiples of it then the company is going to feel that the product is a success. If some have buyer’s remorse afterwards, the company can still consider it a win if the money they make exceeds what they would have made selling the item without RNG. Some may be unhappy, but the company can look at their sales and conclude that the majority was not. I read somewhere that they feel people like “gambling” with the BL chests and I would say the sales validate their belief.

As long as people spend money on RNG then you can expect the gem store to sell it. It’s a business decision.

I can see your points very valid. I agree with what you’ve said. The fact that I have spent 150-200$ on BLChests can be successful. Anet can see my payments as a success… but at what end should gem-buyers be rewarded?

These kinds of odds will upset gem-buyers to the point I’ve heard so many times: "I"m not spending a cent more in the gem store". I think these odds could hurt Anet’s potential profits. In my mind, 100$ of gambling in a VIDEO game, should net out some sort of reward. That’s just my expectation from a video game that does gambling. They could at least put the fused weapons in the store for 300 gems each, or even 500. This still guarantees profit for anet, but they now have accumulated a bit of frustrated customers who have spent more than I and have gained nothing as well.

To what end should the odds be I think is a subjective matter.

Even if I didn’t get a fused ticket, I haven’t received any sort of other rare-reward from the chests.. same old crap. What motivation is there for me left to get them? Which puts potential gem purchases for me at a low.

FourthVariety.5463:

Just because nobody is judging you for having dirty boots, doesn’t mean you hover over the mire.

So what is the penalty for a German citizen who participates in an unlicensed gambling operation?

I’m of the mind that you keep your own boots clean before you starting looking for dirt on other folks’ boots.

FourthVariety.5463:

@kitanas

That is another angle to screw with ArenaNet. Find the right judge and he might rule that gambling as well. Often enough the question is “shouldn’t that be gambling?” Most of the time the answer is “sure, yeah, but nobody sued yet, so lets continue doing it for as long as we can get away with it”.

Just because nobody is judging you for having dirty boots, doesn’t mean you hover over the mire.

It’s not gambling. Despite your apparent desire to “screw with ArenaNet”, I think you’ll have difficulty finding a judge who will support the legal argument you’re attempting.

Money is not required to open these chests. Chests will always give you something when you open them. Most goods received from opening the chests are not transferable to other players, so any intrinsic monetary value that could be attached to them is based on what you could buy them for separately (in cases where it possible to do so).

wetwillyhip.7254:

Astral Projections.7320:

wetwillyhip.7254:

ok, i understand you run the risk or chance with gambling. I understand the fact that fused weapons are a luxury item as they are just skins.

But I have spent 200$ worth of gems on BL keys alone to get ONE fused weapon. Still haven’t gotten it. Doesn’t anyone think this is a little ridiculous and outrageous?

The question is, does ANet think its ridiculous or outrageous? When a company puts out a product and buyers express intense interest by buying multiples of it then the company is going to feel that the product is a success. If some have buyer’s remorse afterwards, the company can still consider it a win if the money they make exceeds what they would have made selling the item without RNG. Some may be unhappy, but the company can look at their sales and conclude that the majority was not. I read somewhere that they feel people like “gambling” with the BL chests and I would say the sales validate their belief.

As long as people spend money on RNG then you can expect the gem store to sell it. It’s a business decision.

I can see your points very valid. I agree with what you’ve said. The fact that I have spent 150-200$ on BLChests can be successful. Anet can see my payments as a success… but at what end should gem-buyers be rewarded?

These kinds of odds will upset gem-buyers to the point I’ve heard so many times: "I"m not spending a cent more in the gem store". I think these odds could hurt Anet’s potential profits. In my mind, 100$ of gambling in a VIDEO game, should net out some sort of reward. That’s just my expectation from a video game that does gambling. They could at least put the fused weapons in the store for 300 gems each, or even 500. This still guarantees profit for anet, but they now have accumulated a bit of frustrated customers who have spent more than I and have gained nothing as well.

To what end should the odds be I think is a subjective matter.

Even if I didn’t get a fused ticket, I haven’t received any sort of other rare-reward from the chests.. same old crap. What motivation is there for me left to get them? Which puts potential gem purchases for me at a low.

I would have been glad to buy at least one weapon if they sold it directly, but I got bit by RNG a few months back and swore off buying more keys. I’ve been doing key runs. ^^ It’s tedious but there is some personal satisfaction of getting these keys without paying for them.

If they are going to do this, they should increase the drop rate. I suspect from reading the forum that it’s 1 in 50 which means its easy to be unlucky and need 100 or more to get one.

-looks at the new dye packs-

I think ANet is unconvinced by the anti-gambling arguments.

Now I have to decide if I want to try my luck on the Frost Dye packs…

In subscriptionless pay-to-win games those of us who don’t spend money play at the expense of the impatient who want to get to max power quickly.

Here in GW2, those of us who don’t spend money after the box sale play at the expense of people too clueless to know that in gambling the house wins.

I wish they’d just offer cool things (like molten weapon skins) for a flat rate in the gem shop, and then I would pay my own share. I refuse to spend money, either in-game or RL, on a chance at something.

I was already invested in buying keys and getting at least a few other things i actually wanted back, which is what kept me going till i got a skin. I won’t be doing it in the future though. I’m sure i spent more money on this game at this point than i did on my release ps3. I think the pick is a good deal, however i already blew all my disposable income on keys.

munkiman.3068:

I won’t be doing it in the future though. I’m sure i spent more money on this game at this point than i did on my release ps3. I think the pick is a good deal, however i already blew all my disposable income on keys.

That’s the tricky thing about games without a subscription. I know I’ve spent more than $15 a month on GW (and yeah I just snagged the pick – limited time items impair my judgement). I’m actually contemplating whether I want to convert some gems to gold with the current conversion rate. I never was good at predicting when things hit their peak. Every time I get ready to pull the trigger something new shows up in the gem store and it goes a bit higher….

Yeah, i wish i hadn’t tossed my extra gems at the conversion to gold now. Thing is with the shop, it seems like it’s always going to go up once they have items like this appear every so often. I’m wondering what the cap actually is, or how many gems are actually available.

Looks like the new Frost and Flame Dye Kits still have an RNG element in them in that you might still get an ordinary dye instead of an exclusive dye.

However, there is a difference compared to the RNG in the chests— the odds are published on the item.

Assuming: all 25 colors in the pack have an equal unbiased chance of being revealed upon consumption (in other words, not “rigged”), you have a 24% chance that you will get any themed dye over regular dyes. If you’re aiming for a specific dye, you have a 4% chance of acquiring one.

I bought one Frost Dye Kit. I got Glacial Sky. I think I’ll stop.

Besides the point, perhaps ANet is listening to some of the concerns brought up in this thread, consulted their legal teams about it and continued the research on RNG-based rewards that involve the use of real-life money— “gambling” in a simple sense. Gambling can be interesting, but I believe that if real-life money is involve in any way shape or form, then that can develop some legal concerns about it.

With that said, the difference in this case is that we know our published odds on these dyes and that’s 24% for any themed dye and 4% for a specific dye. The odds of obtaining a Fused weapon ticket, however, seems to be up in the air. Does it make sense for the community to buy all these keys (with real life money) just “for science”?

Now only if I had the money to do the “science” and see if those odds are actually true for the new Dye Kits …