Guild Wars 2

Ok, well i didn’t bother with these, but as that’s the case then it too is bad and they obviously aren’t listening at all or simply don’t care. Put a chance at one of the 3 exclusive dyes plus another random dye or just one of the 3 exclusive colors and leave it at that. It’s getting tired and old already with this “buy this item for a chance at getting something you want” garbage.

Ari Kagura.9182:

Looks like the new Frost and Flame Dye Kits still have an RNG element in them in that you might still get an ordinary dye instead of an exclusive dye.

However, there is a difference compared to the RNG in the chests— the odds are published on the item.

Assuming: all 25 colors in the pack have an equal unbiased chance of being revealed upon consumption (in other words, not “rigged”), you have a 24% chance that you will get any themed dye over regular dyes. If you’re aiming for a specific dye, you have a 4% chance of acquiring one.

I bought one Frost Dye Kit. I got Glacial Sky. I think I’ll stop.
…

Best to be careful about those kind of assumptions.

I personally don’t recall any rates being officially stated.

It would not be impossible for dyes to have unequal, predetermined rates.

Mourningcry.9428:

Best to be careful about those kind of assumptions.
I personally don’t recall any rates being officially stated.
It would not be impossible for dyes to have unequal, predetermined rates.

That’s a good point, but the way it’s worded leads me to believe it’s an equal chance. “One random dye from a pool of 25 that includes 6 exclusive colors”. Nothing about rarity.

I’m not inclined to buy one. If it was a set up so that you would get one of the 6 exclusive dyes without knowing which one, it would be more attractive to me, even if it was more expensive or there was a mix of common/uncommon/rare among the 6 dyes.

The folks that are interested in dyes probably already have the non-exclusive ones. Is there a way to tell which 25 dyes are in the pool (other than various shades and saturations of blue)? I don’t see anything on the wiki.

Nothing about rarity is nothing about rarity. If the table were unweighted (making these a fabulous way to get some of the rares in the pool), that would be such an attractive proposition that there’s no way I’d forget to specifically say so in my ad-copy…

Mourningcry.9428:

Best to be careful about those kind of assumptions.

I personally don’t recall any rates being officially stated.

It would not be impossible for dyes to have unequal, predetermined rates.

I suppose you have a point there— for instance, fishing the toilet for precursors. Assuming I’m using exotics to dump in the mystic toilet, I’m lead to believe that there are “common” Exotics, “rare” Exotics, and finally the “precursor” Exotic that have different weighted chances of obtaining one. Of course, that’s a different topic all together; but that’s the only example I can think of.

But numbers are numbers. They at least say something. It’s better than not knowing what the odds are in obtaining one.

I’d say more “science” is required to see if the chances are actually 24% in getting a themed dye. Fortunately, someone in this thread sparked up the idea in contributing to that science: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/bltc/Flame-Frost-Themed-Dye-drop-data

Nike.2631:

Nothing about rarity is nothing about rarity. If the table were unweighted (making these a fabulous way to get some of the rares in the pool), that would be such an attractive proposition that there’s no way I’d forget to specifically say so in my ad-copy…

Well if only 6 out of 25 are exclusive, that’s a way to add rarity, even though the chances of getting any one of the 25 are the same.

It’s not a proposition I find attractive. I understand that something you can just buy with cash isn’t rare and special unless it is exorbitantly expensive, but I don’t think things in the gem store should be rare Edit – well maybe some things like exotic minis that are tradeable I haven’t really thought it completely through. I think it is enough that there is a rare chance that you’ll get something expensive from a chest or dye pack.

Why not just accept that folks with a tiger charr or pink quaggan back pack are just may be folks that spent more in the gem store and not necessarily folks that got lucky? I sort of get the feeling that you don’t want folks to have all of the special stuff in the game just because they have a lot of disposable income, but the reality is that trying to make that happen makes more folks unhappy than happy.

Yup, i’m actually proof of one of those people that got both backpacks and a ticket, but it took 267 chests to get there. I’m not particularly happy with what my odds turned out to be, which is why i won’t be buying keys anymore over these kind of item offers. Very similar to why i won’t be buying the dye packs either.

As others, I’m far less bothered by the randomness of the various lottery tickets in the Gem Store than I am about Arenanet’s desire to continue putting new ticket styles in the Store. I’ve gambled a few times and lost every one, but I knew that going in.

The problem I have is that, as others have said, I don’t even get the option to get one skin in the end because they don’t even offer the certainty of it for a premium. $10 for that cool new sword/bow/focus skin? Maybe I will this time. $5 for a batch of chances? Pass. (Pulling numbers out of my butt here, so bear with me.)

The cash shop on GW1 was awesome. Spent lots o’ money there to get what I wanted even knowing it was just a costume. The more I’m told by Anet that GW2’s cash shop is ultimately a crap shoot, the less I’ll spend. I might eventually find something else to play. And that would make me very sad since all the GW1 cash I spent I knew was going into making GW2 a great game.

C’mon, Anet. Stop gambling your players away.

GW1 cash shop? Seriously? GW2 cash shop has everything the GW1 cash shop had and more. GW2 shop also has guaranteed purchases of costumes, bank slots, makeover kits and name changes, which is pretty much what the GW1 shop had. (In addition to content gated by money. Zzzzz)

GW2 cash shop offers a TON more options than GW1 shop. In addition to costumes (both town clothes and actual armor) it offers you boosters, dyes, weapon skins, back item skins, convenience items (perma mining pick, insta-access to merchants) AND on top of it all you can use in-game gold to purchase it all.

GW2 cash sho kitten o far superior to the GW1 cash shop, it’s not even funny. Try taking your nostalgia goggles off sometimes.

Though I do hope Anet continues their gambling boxes (hopefully not account-bound. More Halloween-style RNG boxes, not Molten weapon account-bound crap). More money for Anet is always good, since the gambling doesn’t affect me since I don’t buy it, and more money for the developer is always more content for me down the line!

I have no problem with paying for good content. I just don’t like being told “the only way you can get this sparkly item here is to gamble at it.” That’s not good business, that’s fleecing suckers.

As for comparing cash shops: yes, GW2 has more options and cooler stuff all around. But GW1 was all about purchasing an item or upgrade. GW2 doesn’t guarantee that, which is entirely my point. And at least I used to be able to wear costumes while I fought. Here, you can’t adventure in town clothes which is the Lion’s share of apparel in GW2’s cash shop. Most of the other items mentioned are gambling tickets.

Aurelian Omenkind.2470:

But GW1 was all about purchasing an item or upgrade. GW2 doesn’t guarantee that, which is entirely my point.

Seriously, take off your nostalgia goggles. I’m wondering if you actually looked at GW2’s Gem Shop at all.

In GW2, you can purchase everything you can purchase in GW1. GUARANTEED. Except content (content gated by money? No thanks), mercenary heroes, and skill unlocks (doesn’t apply to combat system).

Costumes (Both town cloths and actual armor skins. Guaranteed purchases)
More bank space (Guaranteed purchase.)
More inventory space (Guaranteed purchase.)
Makeover pack (Guaranteed purchase.)
Name Change (Guaranteed purchase.)

On top of all that, GW2 adds boosters and convenience items .

Infinite mining pick (Guaranteed purchase.)
Boosters of all kinds. EXP/karma/MF/Crafting (Guaranteed purchases.)
Convenience items such as Merchant/Trader/Banker summons (Guaranteed purchases.)

Aaaaaaaand three random boxes.

Minis
Dyes
Black Lion Box/Keys.

Which all contain items which can be purchased with in-game gold or Gems, with the exception Fused Weapon Skins.

So tell me why the GW1 shop is better than the GW2 shop again? Because re-reading your quote, I’m under the impression that you haven’t actually looked at GW2’s Gem Shop. GW2 has PLENTY of guaranteed purchases. I have no idea what you mean when you say “GW2 doesn’t guarentee an item or upgrade.” It does, for the majority of the purchases.

Ursan.7846:

So Anet is selling a box with random cosmetic/luxury items. They clearly stated that this was random. A consenting customer purchased this box with random goodies.

If you think this is unethical, by gods I hope you don’t play Magic the Gathering.

Basically this.

As somebody who used to play those kinds of card games a long time ago, I second your comment there.

Arganthium.5638:

Ursan.7846:

So Anet is selling a box with random cosmetic/luxury items. They clearly stated that this was random. A consenting customer purchased this box with random goodies.

If you think this is unethical, by gods I hope you don’t play Magic the Gathering.

Basically this.

As somebody who used to play those kinds of card games a long time ago, I second your comment there.

For those who want those items have no other choice but to purchase them for a chance to obtain them, it’s a gamble , just like that in a casino – drop a coin , pull the lever and hope you walk away with that gold filled jackpot- this is not comparable to a TCG.

It’s unethical because their using these desirables that are only obtained this in method supported in their promotions/marketing using big arty graphics, front page banner images etc promoting these rewards and hoping that this is something that will attract players to spend their money to gamble for a skin.
We also know the drop rates are quite low , else everyone would be having them by now, the rates are probable comparible to the average person going into the casino and walking out with more than $10,000 (or equiv in your own currency).
No one buys these boxes for the boosters, tonics, the karma rewards… they buy it for the super desirable item, the luxurious weapon skin.

Remove the "only obtained via this method (which this method actually has mechanics of gambling) " and this thread wouldn’t have even been made.

dronzer.8392:

Remove the "only obtained via this method (which this method actually has mechanics of gambling) " and this thread wouldn’t have even been made.

You missed Halloween and the Lost Shores. Random items which can be sold on the TP. People still complained.

Again, these are fully consenting customers here, and relating to purely luxury/cosmetic items. The “unethical” accusations are incredibly hard to take seriously.

dronzer.8392:

Arganthium.5638:

Ursan.7846:

So Anet is selling a box with random cosmetic/luxury items. They clearly stated that this was random. A consenting customer purchased this box with random goodies.

If you think this is unethical, by gods I hope you don’t play Magic the Gathering.

Basically this.

As somebody who used to play those kinds of card games a long time ago, I second your comment there.

For those who want those items have no other choice but to purchase them for a chance to obtain them, it’s a gamble , just like that in a casino – drop a coin , pull the lever and hope you walk away with that gold filled jackpot- this is not comparable to a TCG.

It’s unethical because their using these desirables that are only obtained this in method supported in their promotions/marketing using big arty graphics, front page banner images etc promoting these rewards and hoping that this is something that will attract players to spend their money to gamble for a skin.
We also know the drop rates are quite low , else everyone would be having them by now, the rates are probable comparible to the average person going into the casino and walking out with more than $10,000 (or equiv in your own currency).
No one buys these boxes for the boosters, tonics, the karma rewards… they buy it for the super desirable item, the luxurious weapon skin.

Remove the "only obtained via this method (which this method actually has mechanics of gambling) " and this thread wouldn’t have even been made.

A casino runs like this:
You spend money and-

A-You win something.
B-You lose and win nothing.

The keys/chests work like this:
You use a key and-

A-You win something.
B-You win “something”.

Granted it may not be what you want, but it is not a gamble. Chance and RNG is not gambling, it is simply fighting odds if YOU want a specific item. You are playing the RNG game, not the casino game. From someone who always “wins” something from the chests and has about 5 bank rows dedicated to those somethings, I can tell you it very much does not feel like a casino or gambling. You win something, sometimes you win something better. Either way you win.

And as for the “no one buys these for boosters etc”, thats your opinion. I buy them for boosters and salvage kits and whatever else it wants to give me. If it gives me another ticket (#5 for me), that is fine too.

Ursan.7846:

dronzer.8392:

Remove the "only obtained via this method (which this method actually has mechanics of gambling) " and this thread wouldn’t have even been made.

relating to purely luxury/cosmetic items. The “unethical” accusations are incredibly hard to take seriously.

So you’re considering it unethical based on your personal “value” of the rewards? okay lets change the reward then, a chance to win $1 million real world money (or equiv in your own currency). Anet makes a lot of money from the sales of these items and win rate is quite low, this in turn is actually accessible by people for all ages.

Would your stance then change?

At which point does it become unethical ? at which point is it ethical? just because it’s value is pixels vs real world currency does not negate the fact that this is gambling, pure and simple.

Geotherma.2395:

And as for the “no one buys these for boosters etc”, thats your opinion. I buy them for boosters and salvage kits and whatever else it wants to give me. If it gives me another ticket (#5 for me), that is fine too.

If that’s what motivates you to buy the boxes then that’s great! and good for you! but I suspect you’re in a very small minority for this, If one wanted boosters, salvage kits, wouldn’t it be wiser to just buy them direct rather than opening a box? o.O ).

…But for the majority this is not what is attracting the sales, it’s that chance to obtain that luxurious desirable item anything else is considered a loss, just like a casino, you consider the money the reward and everything else a loss, even if it’s a t-shirt given to you on the way out.

dronzer.8392:

So you’re considering it unethical based on your personal “value” of the rewards? okay lets change the reward then, a chance to win $1 million real world money (or equiv in your own currency). Anet makes a lot of money from the sales of these items and win rate is quite low, this in turn is actually accessible by people for all ages.

Would your stance then change?

No.

dronzer.8392:

At which point does it become unethical ? at which point is it ethical? just because it’s value is pixels vs real world currency does not negate the fact that this is gambling, pure and simple.

It matters quite a bit. People hold different ethical views, and their thresholds vary. Depending on what the reward is different amounts of people will be outraged.

If the right to continue playing this game was only obtainable through gambling, then I will assure you the rage will be vast.

Pretty pixels? Sure there will be a few people who’d consider it unethical, but to the majority of players it will be but a blip on their radar.

Gambling is gambling yes, but I’d postulate that only a minor portion of the player base sees pure gambling as “unethical,” while a majority of the player base could care less, especially on items which have no direct affect on their gameplay.

dronzer.8392:

Geotherma.2395:

And as for the “no one buys these for boosters etc”, thats your opinion. I buy them for boosters and salvage kits and whatever else it wants to give me. If it gives me another ticket (#5 for me), that is fine too.

If that’s what motivates you to buy the boxes then that’s great! and good for you! but I suspect you’re in a very small minority for this, If one wanted boosters, salvage kits, wouldn’t it be wiser to just buy them direct rather than opening a box? o.O ).

…But for the majority this is not what is attracting the sales, it’s that chance to obtain that luxurious desirable item anything else is considered a loss, just like a casino, you consider the money the reward and everything else a loss, even if it’s a t-shirt given to you on the way out.

No I don’t believe so. I’ve bought… a .. lot. And I can say from experience in the overall picture you get far more gems worth from keys than buying directly. Often times I get salvage kits 300 gems, more keys, total makeover kits, and other items. if you look at it from say 200 keys, you start to see that you really do wayyy better than buying directly. I really wanted to do a test for everyone to show my average, much like I did for BLSK VS Master kits on rares, but sadly my car brakes decided to fail me.. So there goes almost $600.. I still intend to do this even if it does not sway people either way, it is an idea of what you get. And over all I truly believe you get far more than your gems worth in the big scheme of things. I add up the gems worth I get every 5 keys I buy, so far I’ve yet to go back on my word. 3 months, and about 500 keys? ish. And you can hold me to my word, you will see me on here with a youtube video..someday. Assuming my car doesn’t do some other awful thing in the next 30 days..

Also, that loss you speak of is perspective. If someone thinks that getting tons of other items is a loss, i don’t know how to counter that argument.. If I spend $10 on a lottery ticket and the guy gives me a free snapple for “trying”, no way am I going to be angry.

Just like the lottery, the RNG is a gold sink. Unlike the lottery, it’s pretty much the only way to attain certain things. The alternative is to price the most valued items exhorbantly high.

So I ask you, which would go over better, to have a 1/500 chance of getting a particular rare die every time you spend 15 silver on a die.. Or to spend 750 gold on the die of your choice. It amounts to the same thing. The former is more entertaining and appealing to most though.

Ursan.7846:

dronzer.8392:

At which point does it become unethical ? at which point is it ethical? just because it’s value is pixels vs real world currency does not negate the fact that this is gambling, pure and simple.

It matters quite a bit. People hold different ethical views, and their thresholds vary. Depending on what the reward is different amounts of people will be outraged.

If the right to continue playing this game was only obtainable through gambling, then I will assure you the rage will be vast.

Pretty pixels? Sure there will be a few people who’d consider it unethical, but to the majority of players it will be but a blip on their radar.

Gambling is gambling yes, but I’d postulate that only a minor portion of the player base sees pure gambling as “unethical,” while a majority of the player base could care less, especially on items which have no direct affect on their gameplay.

Very true, and I agree with you on your response but one, regardless of their player status should not have to be driven to playing this gambling game for these skins if they so desire it.
I see both sides of the fence but I sit with those that agree that this is wrong, purely because If I was to ever have children, I would definitely not want them to spend their money on gambling regardless of the reward, I would want them to be able to either buy it or obtain it another way (Which is why I have no complaints against the Halloween skins as you could obtain them directly via TP if you should wish).

The other items in those boxes can be obtained directly so why should these skins be treated so differently?
It’s the fact that this is the only method to get them if one wants them, the mechanic of obtaining them is gambling for them which from what I can gather in this thread a fair number are against.

dronzer.8392:

Geotherma.2395:

And as for the “no one buys these for boosters etc”, thats your opinion. I buy them for boosters and salvage kits and whatever else it wants to give me. If it gives me another ticket (#5 for me), that is fine too.

If that’s what motivates you to buy the boxes then that’s great! and good for you! but I suspect you’re in a very small minority for this, If one wanted boosters, salvage kits, wouldn’t it be wiser to just buy them direct rather than opening a box? o.O ).

…But for the majority this is not what is attracting the sales, it’s that chance to obtain that luxurious desirable item anything else is considered a loss, just like a casino, you consider the money the reward and everything else a loss, even if it’s a t-shirt given to you on the way out.

Actually, that’s the only thing that motivated me to buy the keys for the chance at the ticket (260 something opened before i got one). I’m for sure going to use every single item i got from them. I’m not happy that i was forced to do it that way, however, I’m also going to use what i got, i paid for it.

I hate the online gambling aspect of these skins. I don’t buy black lion keys due to it. I would be far more likely to buy the skins if they were available directly via a set price on the gem store.

However, due to people with poor self-control, I imagine the gambling system makes more money. This is exploitative and reflects poorly on ANet.

etiolate.9185:

I hate the online gambling aspect of these skins. I don’t buy black lion keys due to it. I would be far more likely to buy the skins if they were available directly via a set price on the gem store.

Then I hope you like looking at other people’s whistfully, because you are never going to have one.

Straight up question – would you pay 4000 gems for one?

(that hugely lowballing the cost assuming they’re as common as 1-in-50 in the boxes…)

I spent 30$ trying to get fused skins..I figured why not, throw my guys a bone and get some nifty stuffs. But…it didn’t feel very good in the end, and the fact that there’s NO OTHER METHOD of obtaining these skins, including the LIVING STORY they are based on is pretty bad, and I won’t do it again. Love the game to death, but the fact that so many event themed skins (which is always the thing I want) you have to gamble to get…….I’m glad people with disposable income are supporting you, I know that these thing DO bring in quite a bit of money, but just ya know..make it POSSIBLE in some way for poor folks to taste the glory, yea?

dimurea.7810:

Love the game to death, but the fact that so many event themed skins (which is always the thing I want) you have to gamble to get…….

I don’t understand. Fused skins are so far the only event-themed skins that you have to gamble to get. Halloween, Lost Shores, and Wintersday themed skins all gave you the option of purchasing these skins off the TP. Wintersday even had a separate set which you could purchase directly from the gem store.

Nike.2631:

etiolate.9185:

I hate the online gambling aspect of these skins. I don’t buy black lion keys due to it. I would be far more likely to buy the skins if they were available directly via a set price on the gem store.

Then I hope you like looking at other people’s whistfully, because you are never going to have one.

Straight up question – would you pay 4000 gems for one?

(that hugely lowballing the cost assuming they’re as common as 1-in-50 in the boxes…)

No, and like I said, I understand the gambling system may be making them more money. They are just making less money from people like me and hurting community relations.

Calae.1738:

You’re comparing a gingerbread sword to a sword with molten lava on it.

Arenanet thinks we’re going to spend hundreds of dollars to look cool and only a few dollars to look stupid. I’d like to meet these designers and have a chat with them.

I don’t understand what your point is. My point is that the Fused Skins are so far the only weapon skins obtained solely through random chance. Every other event-themed weapon skins have been obtainable straight from the Gem Store (Wintersday) or can be purchased from the TP (Halloween, Lost Shores, Wintersday).

What does your personal opinion of the aesthetics of the Wintersday/Fused skins have to do with my point?