Guild Wars 2

Due the latest patch, the gold going in the economy has increase(the gold drops form champs, and the greens/blues sold to vendor) while the gold sinks has not( or decrease because of reduce wp, one could say)

I believe the Anet would have known this would happen, so the question is simple. Why would they commit such action?

Side note:
Current champ farming/The Crown Pavilion, I make 6-7g per hour, 4-5g comes selling blues and greens with monster drops

bragging friend makes 8-11g per hour(mf gear, food,ascended stuff, but I think he makes more if you count the value of skill points)

Lets see if I can help.

Prior to this the two big faucets for gold were CoF path 1 and playing the TP. We’ve seen substantial gains in landscape coin gain from the support reminders during the last leg of the Living Story. Now we have massive repeat runs of CoF 1 shot dead in the street and a huge legendary-killing train running in the Crown Pavilion – an activity you can actually perform well in playing solo.

Its like after a year, they finally wanted to say ’I’m sorry" to all the casual solo players they’ve been kicking in the junk since launch. With a side order of shutting down a grotesquely abusable farm and putting a megaton more crafting materials into circulation so that you can actually gather some of them on your own instead of having to bow before the TP.

Its not just new coin coming into the system – its WHERE in the playstyles spectrum it’s being introduced.

Nike.2631:

Prior to this the two big faucets for gold were CoF path 1 and playing the TP.

“Playing the TP” is not a gold faucet.

As for gold sinks, it is possible they have increased due to the higher volume of materials selling across the TP.

I think there is about the same amount of gold being distributed but now it is being distributed evenly instead of just to the hard core CoF farmers. All the new ascended recipes that will be coming out soon should balance evreything out as I am sure it will be expensive to make.

Well it was a faucet from a player’s point of view even though by it’s use, the TP, gold was still being sunk out of the active economy.

Nike.2631:

Its like after a year, they finally wanted to say ’I’m sorry" to all the casual solo players they’ve been kicking in the junk since launch. With a side order of shutting down a grotesquely abusable farm and putting a megaton more crafting materials into circulation so that you can actually gather some of them on your own instead of having to bow before the TP.

This.

Julie Yann.5379:

All the new ascended recipes that will be coming out soon should balance evreything out as I am sure it will be expensive to make.

And this. They’ve stated that the upcoming T7 mats will be made by combining lower tier mats. This will eat up a lot of T6 mats and increase the demand for them. I’ll bet the devs want to make sure we have a good pool to work with.

Nike.2631:

Lets see if I can help.

Prior to this the two big faucets for gold were CoF path 1 and playing the TP. We’ve seen substantial gains in landscape coin gain from the support reminders during the last leg of the Living Story. Now we have massive repeat runs of CoF 1 shot dead in the street and a huge legendary-killing train running in the Crown Pavilion – an activity you can actually perform well in playing solo.

Its like after a year, they finally wanted to say ’I’m sorry" to all the casual solo players they’ve been kicking in the junk since launch. With a side order of shutting down a grotesquely abusable farm and putting a megaton more crafting materials into circulation so that you can actually gather some of them on your own instead of having to bow before the TP.

Its not just new coin coming into the system – its WHERE in the playstyles spectrum it’s being introduced.

I sense an emotional or desire messing up your logic.Also, you not seeing the big picture.

This is a prefect example of when a government simply prints moneys into circulation of the economy. it causes inflation and prices will adjust accordingly. It might be a great temporary fix however, in the long run it will cause inflation and we will be the same place, we were before.

Ursan.7846:

“Playing the TP” is not a gold faucet.

As for gold sinks, it is possible they have increased due to the higher volume of materials selling across the TP.

They have not increased. The amount of gold is being taken is the same because the prices went down (decreasing the quantity of the gold being taken out). However, the quantity of materials, being traded, has increased.Leading it to stay the same, I suspect.

Julie Yann.5379:

I think there is about the same amount of gold being distributed but now it is being distributed evenly instead of just to the hard core CoF farmers. All the new ascended recipes that will be coming out soon should balance evreything out as I am sure it will be expensive to make.

1) The amount of gold being distributed now is far greater then the amount being to hardcore CoF. A larger base of players is able to farm the current events then CoF, thus resulting more gold put into the economy. Also, the amount being made in the current events is greater then the amount being made in CoF.

Note: CoF path 1 has not been nerfed. All they did is simply added 1g per day when it is done and removed the coin bags i think(which give 1-5s).

2)I don’t think the ascended gold sink is going to match the incoming gold of the current events taking place. The reason for this is because most players can get 1 or 2 sets of ascended gear however, farming can be done unlimited times.

Behellagh.1468:

Well it was a faucet from a player’s point of view even though by it’s use, the TP, gold was still being sunk out of the active economy.

However, do you understand that overall, the rate of incoming gold into the economy is far greater then what it used to be.

The rate of gold incoming has increase while the gold leaving the economy has, overall, stay the same. Which, it will result in inflation.

Aruemar.7891:

…while the gold leaving the economy has, overall, stay the same.

Why do you think that?

Originally I thought nothing could bring in more gold to the economy then CoF farming did…

I was wrong. There are 3-4 different activities in this patch that EASILY yield 8-10g/hr in pure gold creation, plus an additional 4-5 g/hr in selling drops.

Not really sure what the devs were thinking when they did this.

There are gold sinks in the new events. While each of the new rune/sigil recipes require gears, they also require gold to purchase. Tickets themselves also require gold, which I imagine is being spent by players fighting Liadri over and over again.

Aruemar.7891:

Behellagh.1468:

Well it was a faucet from a player’s point of view even though by it’s use, the TP, gold was still being sunk out of the active economy.

However, do you understand that overall, the rate of incoming gold into the economy is far greater then what it used to be.

The rate of gold incoming has increase while the gold leaving the economy has, overall, stay the same. Which, it will result in inflation.

More gold in the economy would drive up prices as long as item supply remains constant. Increase price means increase sunk from TP use or set aside from Gem exchange.

We have no evidence that gold incoming has increased. The devs have attempted to balance the rewards across all dungeons so everything NOT CoFp1 gets run. We don’t know if these net changes are increasing or decreasing total incoming gold. Also you may be of the opinion that everyone runs dungeons all day but most players I know don’t.

Now the Queen’s Jubilee is certainly pouring coin and T6 mats into the economy. Maybe the devs mined from their “big data” that simply playing the game is leaving too many players coin poor while only the subgroup of dungeon Zerk speed runners and TP traders are the only ones making enough money to go horizontal at 80. Isn’t doing something you don’t care to do to achieve some game goal one definition of grind? And isn’t that something they try not to do?

And it also may be that the economy is now “mature” in size and that the sinks are working too well so it was time to up the supply side of things.

Doesn’t matter which of these are true or not, I dismiss your premise that the economy is on the verge of some inflationary cycle. Remember inflation is economy wide, not just a class of items.

Ursan.7846:

Nike.2631:

Prior to this the two big faucets for gold were CoF path 1 and playing the TP.

“Playing the TP” is not a gold faucet.

As for gold sinks, it is possible they have increased due to the higher volume of materials selling across the TP.

Apologies – it is NOT a faucet. It is one of the two most effective ways of amassing personal wealth. It concentrates existing coin at a preposterous rate .

Aruemar.7891:

I sense an emotional or desire messing up your logic. Also, you not seeing the big picture.

Its not an emotional statement to observe that money is now flowing into the system to a different demographic than before. That’s a factual observation. What’s emotional is my APPROVAL for this change, as I am not a big guild member or TP merchant prince. I log in, I kill some stuff, I harvest a bit, I occasionally get asked to do dungeons by one of the half dozen or so players who know that I’ll provide decent skills, decent scenario knowledge, and some light hearted chit-chat during the run. Then I log out.

These changes have allowed me to amass gold this last week at rates previously reserved for people who don’t claw their own eyes out at the soul-crushing boredom that is CoF runs. I keep between 10 and 30g on hand for occasional splurges, but most of the not inconsiderable value of my account is tied up in eight fully exotic or better 80th level characters, several with 2 or more full sets of gear depending on the build I’m tinkering with. I own a LOT of orange armor . And I’m probably only barely middle class in this game. After riding (and frequently directing) the Boss-train in the Crown Pavillion, I’ve had the gold to buy all kinds of mats I’ve been holding off on, even if the prices have climbed slightly.

This is a prefect example of when a government simply prints moneys into circulation of the economy. it causes inflation and prices will adjust accordingly. It might be a great temporary fix however, in the long run it will cause inflation and we will be the same place, we were before.

I’m perfectly capable of distinguishing between costs finding their mean and redistribution of wealth. The consequences of printing money into the economy are entirely different depending on how that money is distributed. If I’m abruptly making 50% more per hour, I don’t care if prices go up 25%… not only am I still better off, but the folks sitting on over 1000g built on the past paradigm also just lost a bunch of the lead they had. You can guess my emotional reaction to that .

(incidentally I have the highest regard for a number of our merchant prices – most of whom I think will do just fine parting the newly rich from their coin. The ones who measure their prowess by their current success rather than past bank-balance are going to keep on winning the part of the game they like to play )

I think I finally understand the actions of Anet. I will explain what I understand in my next reply . Also,I thank you Nike.However, let me correct one misunderstand you have.

If I’m abruptly making 50% more per hour, I don’t care if prices go up 25%.

This is incorrect. You should note that It is not only you, but everyone. Everyone is making 50% more per so prices will increasing 50%(if only only supply and demand stays the same which for most items, it will. ). Mostly due to inflation of the pure gold going into the economy.

People already making their money be doing CoF 1 over and over aren’t seeing that kind of jump, percentagewise. Likewise a merchant prince is not suddenly making multiples over what they were before because of the Crown Pavilion train, and that is why there is redistribution at work. It’s NOT “everyone” that has gone up. It’s more like an increase to minimum wage .

I tried out the Champ farms personally. I don’t see any inflation in work to be honest.

1) Mats drop = increase in supply, deflationary

2) Champ Weapon Drop = Go to TP, TP is gold sink, thus deflationary

3) Around 10+ Bag coins = one COF P1 run, which net about 50 to 70 silver per run. Time wise I would say they are about the same.

4)Tons of Greens = I sold all my green from a 30 mins run for around 20 silver. Superior to COF P1 greens, thus inflationary but mildly.

5)COFP1 Char Carvings for trade in weapon -> mixed bag effect, don’t want to explain it here.

To sum it up, the coin bag which give 5 to 6 silvers might be the strongest inflationary effect. Once the silvers amount is lowered to 3 silver, it should be good.

Been a while since this topic reared its head again.

Assuming that an exclusive increase in the money supply equates to an increase in inflation is incomplete at best, and just plain ignnorant at worst.

If you’re going to apply classic economic theory as the basis for your arguement, money supply is just one factor to consider. What about the others?

Come back with a better, or at least more comprehensive, theory and we’ll have a chance at a better discussion.

Mourningcry.9428:

Been a while since this topic reared its head again.

Assuming that an exclusive increase in the money supply equates to an increase in inflation is incomplete at best, and just plain ignnorant at worst.

If you’re going to apply classic economic theory as the basis for your arguement, money supply is just one factor to consider. What about the others?

Come back with a better, or at least more comprehensive, theory and we’ll have a chance at a better discussion.

LOL, you tell me to include money multiplier, monetary policy and fiscal policy, etc. into the discussion? Buddy, this isn’t the real world, and I work in a real world investment firm and I can tell the difference.

If you know any economics at all, all effect is talked in the term of ceteris paribus. If you don’t even know what that means, you know nothing about economics theory.

By the way, most Central Bank policy maker will say more money = higher inflation. The other factors in the real economy does not come into play in a simple virtual economy such as guildwars 2.

Your comment just totally ticked me off. This game’s economy is simply explainable with classical economic theory. The shock is Anet’s wild decisions of doing things, adding skins, adding champ farms. Period. WTH is the point trying to complicate everything when simple model works the best? That’s right, people who do real world investment care about what is practical.

Hell Avenger.7021:

LOL, you tell me to include money multiplier, monetary policy and fiscal policy, etc. into the discussion? Buddy, this isn’t the real world, and I work in a real world investment firm and I can tell the difference.

Do you really want to make this a comparison of credentials?

As I said, if you the OP wanted to apply real-world economic theory to a virtual world which lacks numerous factors, then at least make a more compelling arguement.

Hell Avenger.7021:

If you know any economics at all, all effect is talked in the term of ceteris paribus. If you don’t even know what that means, you know nothing about economics theory.

By the way, most Central Bank policy maker will say more money = higher inflation. The other factors in the real economy does not come into play in a simple virtual economy such as guildwars 2.

The problem with comparing real-world economics with virtual economies is simply that ceteris paribus isn’t valid. All other things are not equal.

You’re doing the same thing as the OP by brining in Central Bank policy and the current bias towards interest rate targeting, also ignorning that all these real-world examples and conclusions have come in no small part to empirical evidence experienced in the real economies.

My problem is that this is just another, in a slew of past threads that come in and try to apply one aspect of real world economic theory to the GW2 virtual economy with precious little else to substantiate such claims.

Hell Avenger.7021:

Your comment just totally ticked me off. This game’s economy is simply explainable with classical economic theory. The shock is Anet’s wild decisions of doing things, adding skins, adding champ farms. Period. WTH is the point trying to complicate everything when simple model works the best? That’s right, people who do real world investment care about what is practical.

You edited this in as I was replying.

The very fact that ANet can implement wide sweeping changes that can dramatically affect the short run outlook of the economy in a instant makes trying to apply simple models difficult at best.

And again, what people do in the real world of investing isn’t necessarily akin to what goes on here.

Mourningcry.9428:

The problem with comparing real-world economics with virtual economies is simply that ceteris paribus isn’t valid. All other things are not equal.

I guess you don’t know what ceteris paribus mean in economics, and merely looked up the meaning of the Latin words. Just as I thought. It is apply for analyze economics factors/shocks while keeping other factors constant in order to determine the effect of the one factor. You do that multiple time, you will have a better understanding of each factors. Then you can bring all factors together to create a multi-factors model with predicative capabilities.

No one really know how much more (pure) gold is created. But remember the supply of materials are also increased, so the “inflation” that you maybe worrying may not be that much different. Also note that the TP gold sink increases with the activity. With so many rare items/high end mats dropped instead of solid gold like from cof p1, a larger amount of these items should be going in the TP (I don’t have time to check). And that is increased gold sink.

Aruemar.7891:

Due the latest patch, the gold going in the economy has increase(the gold drops form champs, and the greens/blues sold to vendor) while the gold sinks has not( or decrease because of reduce wp, one could say)

I believe the Anet would have known this would happen, so the question is simple. Why would they commit such action?

Side note:
Current champ farming/The Crown Pavilion, I make 6-7g per hour, 4-5g comes selling blues and greens with monster drops

bragging friend makes 8-11g per hour(mf gear, food,ascended stuff, but I think he makes more if you count the value of skill points)

Because the peasants were getting restless and needed a bone.

Because ANet didn’t have any other good ideas for this two week period.

Because the champion farm distracts attention from the dungeon gold nerf.

Because the gold influx removed from the dungeon nerf >= gold produced from the champion farm.

Because the gold introduced during this month will be relatively minor in the grand scheme.

Because no one was bothering to fight champions, they needed more reward to make it worth the effort and ANet trusts John to make it work.

TooBz.3065:

Aruemar.7891:

Due the latest patch, the gold going in the economy has increase(the gold drops form champs, and the greens/blues sold to vendor) while the gold sinks has not( or decrease because of reduce wp, one could say)

I believe the Anet would have known this would happen, so the question is simple. Why would they commit such action?

Side note:
Current champ farming/The Crown Pavilion, I make 6-7g per hour, 4-5g comes selling blues and greens with monster drops

bragging friend makes 8-11g per hour(mf gear, food,ascended stuff, but I think he makes more if you count the value of skill points)

Because the peasants were getting restless and needed a bone.

Because ANet didn’t have any other good ideas for this two week period.

Because the champion farm distracts attention from the dungeon gold nerf.

Because the gold influx removed from the dungeon nerf >= gold produced from the champion farm.

Because the gold introduced during this month will be relatively minor in the grand scheme.

Because no one was bothering to fight champions, they needed more reward to make it worth the effort and ANet trusts John to make it work.

almost like easing people from withdrawing from COF P1 addiction.

Hell Avenger.7021:

Mourningcry.9428:

The problem with comparing real-world economics with virtual economies is simply that ceteris paribus isn’t valid. All other things are not equal.

I guess you don’t know what ceteris paribus mean in economics, and merely looked up the meaning of the Latin words. Just as I thought. It is apply for analyze economics factors/shocks while keeping other factors constant in order to determine the effect of the one factor. You do that multiple time, you will have a better understanding of each factors. Then you can bring all factors together to create a multi-factors model with predicative capabilities.

I understand the meaning, (and in fact have a multifactor model open in front of me, financial, not economic) and my response was a play on words (literally) referring to the two economies. Apologies for the trying to be cute.

The point, which I’ve stated multiple times, and you’ve not adressed, is that the factors that exist in the real world that were used to evolve the economic theories being thrown around here that simply do not exist in the virtual economy.

Simply paraphrasing Friedman doesn’t make it absolute.

Mourningcry.9428:

The point, which I’ve stated multiple times, and you’ve not adressed, is that the factors that exist in the real world that were used to evolve the economic theories being thrown around here that simply do not exist in the virtual economy.

Isn’t that my point? Classical eco theory is enough for this game’s virtual economy.

Hell Avenger.7021:

TooBz.3065:

Aruemar.7891:

Due the latest patch, the gold going in the economy has increase(the gold drops form champs, and the greens/blues sold to vendor) while the gold sinks has not( or decrease because of reduce wp, one could say)

I believe the Anet would have known this would happen, so the question is simple. Why would they commit such action?

Side note:
Current champ farming/The Crown Pavilion, I make 6-7g per hour, 4-5g comes selling blues and greens with monster drops

bragging friend makes 8-11g per hour(mf gear, food,ascended stuff, but I think he makes more if you count the value of skill points)

Because the peasants were getting restless and needed a bone.

Because ANet didn’t have any other good ideas for this two week period.

Because the champion farm distracts attention from the dungeon gold nerf.

Because the gold influx removed from the dungeon nerf >= gold produced from the champion farm.

Because the gold introduced during this month will be relatively minor in the grand scheme.

Because no one was bothering to fight champions, they needed more reward to make it worth the effort and ANet trusts John to make it work.

almost like easing people from withdrawing from COF P1 addiction.

Maybe.

Obviously, I don’t really know why ANet does anything, but there a host of reasons that the game designers may decide to do things that appear to be bad for the economy and I wanted to point out that they may not actually be that bad.

Hell Avenger.7021:

Isn’t that my point? Classical eco theory is enough for this game’s virtual economy.

Ok. So, in the most simple sense, why is Friedman more correct over Keyens for this game’s virtual economy?

Edit: I’m not trying to sound like an kitten , just trying to make the point that I tend to see a lot of peanut gallery commentary throwing out very general concepts that may be completely valid, but the details of why they may be as such are compeltely ignored or disregarded.

I’m not at all arguing that the quantity theory is not aplicacble to this virtual economy – I’m just saying that blindly stating it doesn’t necessarily make it so.

Mourningcry.9428:

Ok. So, in the most simple sense, why is Friedman more correct over Keyens for this game’s virtual economy?

Neither are particularly relevant to a game economy (at least, this game’s economy).

The effects their work tried to explain are a consequence of finance (that is, the ability to borrow or lend money) and contracts (or ongoing trade relationships in general), and how those interact with changes in production. GW2 has no contracts, and no financial system, hence none of that applies.

An across-the-board increase in money supply would increase prices – but an across-the-board increase in the drop rate of non-money goods would decrease prices. With this patch we saw both simultaneously. Therefore we cannot say for certain how prices are going to move in the aggregate, since it depends on the relative changes in the two.

Ensign.2189:

Mourningcry.9428:

Ok. So, in the most simple sense, why is Friedman more correct over Keyens for this game’s virtual economy?

Neither are particularly relevant to a game economy (at least, this game’s economy).

The effects their work tried to explain are a consequence of finance (that is, the ability to borrow or lend money) and contracts (or ongoing trade relationships in general), and how those interact with changes in production. GW2 has no contracts, and no financial system, hence none of that applies.

An across-the-board increase in money supply would increase prices – but an across-the-board increase in the drop rate of non-money goods would decrease prices. With this patch we saw both simultaneously. Therefore we cannot say for certain how prices are going to move in the aggregate, since it depends on the relative changes in the two.

Heh… where were you a few hours ago?

This is pretty much to my original point, way up top and so on down. And to my “Edit” in the post you quoted, sorry about that.

The F v. K statement was me be fecitious (in the most basic sense of money supply vs demand affecting price)- and as you alluded to, there’s no easy way to immediately answer that.

Mourningcry.9428:

Ensign.2189:

Mourningcry.9428:

Ok. So, in the most simple sense, why is Friedman more correct over Keyens for this game’s virtual economy?

Neither are particularly relevant to a game economy (at least, this game’s economy).

The effects their work tried to explain are a consequence of finance (that is, the ability to borrow or lend money) and contracts (or ongoing trade relationships in general), and how those interact with changes in production. GW2 has no contracts, and no financial system, hence none of that applies.

An across-the-board increase in money supply would increase prices – but an across-the-board increase in the drop rate of non-money goods would decrease prices. With this patch we saw both simultaneously. Therefore we cannot say for certain how prices are going to move in the aggregate, since it depends on the relative changes in the two.

Heh… where were you a few hours ago?

This is pretty much to my original point, way up top and so on down. And to my “Edit” in the post you quoted, sorry about that.

The F v. K statement was me be fecitious (in the most basic sense of money supply vs demand affecting price)- and as you alluded to, there’s no easy way to immediately answer that.

That is Demand and Supply with a fixed money supply. Don’t forget this virtual economy has a variable money supply.

I don’t think the lousy 3-7 silver we get from Champ Coffers is going to continue to cause massive inflation once the Pavillion thing ends. ….As long as there’s an Equal amount of T5 “large” fine mats (claws, fangs, totems, etc) dropping, then a lot of the Gold will actually get {Sinked} {sic} very rapidly by Crafters converting them into Ectos & Dust.

Anet just needs to make darn sure that those T5’s are in every other Coffer/Bag that gets opened instead of the Silk/Leather we’re getting 3/4’s of the time right now…