Guild Wars 2

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Kraggy.4169:

Geotherma.2395:

Lol people shouldn’t “need” to convert gems to gold. It isn’t that hard to earn

Well, since most people seem to make gold in-game by ‘flipping’ items on TP and price-gouging, rather than actually doing something positive then I’ll pass on that, thanks.

Actually by the very definition of what price flipping is, it requires that 1 person has to lose money for the other to gain that much -15%. So “most” is not even a possibility let alone a reality. A small % of people make a small amount of money using flipping and an even smaller % make a lot of money using flipping.

Economics is not a zero sum game. No one “loses” money because of flippers. In fact, flippers provide several fantastic benefits to everyone in the economy. Furthermore, the more people there are flipping, the smaller the margins are, which means higher insta-sell prices and lower insta-buy prices than the economy would have absent their presence.

The gem to gold conversion rate is governed by supply and demand driven by players.

If you think the rate is too high, convince more people to buy more gems with money or convince people to stop buying gems with gold.

@Gasoline: You appear to feel you’re somehow entitled to the items in the gem store under your own terms. Why? The items in the store are entirely unnecessary conveniences. The fact that it’s possible to trade in-game gold for what are essentially commodities ANet needs to sell (for real $$) to produce revenue to continue to fund the game is pretty kitten generous, IMO.

If someone offers you water when you’re parched, do you complain that the bottle isn’t big enough?

Syeria.4812:

Economics is not a zero sum game. No one “loses” money because of flippers. In fact, flippers provide several fantastic benefits to everyone in the economy. Furthermore, the more people there are flipping, the smaller the margins are, which means higher insta-sell prices and lower insta-buy prices than the economy would have absent their presence.

I keep hearing about how flippers benefit everyone. I am curios to how. So they bring prices to equilibrium faster…..who does that benefit and why?

From what I gather from your post, it benefits impatient players and flippers. On the same token doesn’t that take away from player who are not impatient?

With the sheer number of players using the bltc the liquidity of most functional items is not really an issue. I contest that flipping creates more of an “irrational exuberance” for said items.

Kruhljak.2705:

If someone offers you water when you’re parched, do you complain that the bottle isn’t big enough?

No, he sends it back and demands a name brand instead of generic

Essence Snow.3194:

Syeria.4812:

Economics is not a zero sum game. No one “loses” money because of flippers. In fact, flippers provide several fantastic benefits to everyone in the economy. Furthermore, the more people there are flipping, the smaller the margins are, which means higher insta-sell prices and lower insta-buy prices than the economy would have absent their presence.

I keep hearing about how flippers benefit everyone. I am curios to how. So they bring prices to equilibrium faster…..who does that benefit and why?

From what I gather from your post, it benefits impatient players and flippers. On the same token doesn’t that take away from player who are not impatient?

With the sheer number of players using the bltc the liquidity of most functional items is not really an issue. I contest that flipping creates more of an “irrational exuberance” for said items.

Beautiful strawman.

Flippers are the sole reason for price stability (which benefits everyone except for speculators) and market liquidity. So many people have pointed out ways that flippers benefit the economy (you even listed one in your own post!) but zero people have pointed out ways they harm it.

People that ask for lower gem prices clearly miss the point of the gem store.

ANet will defend extreem high gem prices because THAT IS HOW THEY MAKE MONEY.

They hide this very well, ofcourse, claiming that players determine the price.
This is nonsense: ANet decided on the price mechanism, not the players.
- ANet sells all the gems that players buy and ANet sets the price for this. you can’t choice the price to sell gems, ANet will tell you what the price is.
- ANet did not put in buy and sell orders.
- ANet wrote the rules on gem prices, not the players.
- ANet never made their pricing formula public.

High gem prices are in ANet’s advantage. The higher the gem price in gold, the more people will pay with dollars. And in the end, that is what ANet want. ANet makes more money with high gem prices. They will not allow them to go down.

It’s basic economy.

Syeria.4812:

Essence Snow.3194:

Syeria.4812:

Economics is not a zero sum game. No one “loses” money because of flippers. In fact, flippers provide several fantastic benefits to everyone in the economy. Furthermore, the more people there are flipping, the smaller the margins are, which means higher insta-sell prices and lower insta-buy prices than the economy would have absent their presence.

I keep hearing about how flippers benefit everyone. I am curios to how. So they bring prices to equilibrium faster…..who does that benefit and why?

From what I gather from your post, it benefits impatient players and flippers. On the same token doesn’t that take away from player who are not impatient?

With the sheer number of players using the bltc the liquidity of most functional items is not really an issue. I contest that flipping creates more of an “irrational exuberance” for said items.

Beautiful strawman.

Flippers are the sole reason for price stability (which benefits everyone except for speculators) and market liquidity. So many people have pointed out ways that flippers benefit the economy (you even listed one in your own post!) but zero people have pointed out ways they harm it.

Sole reason? Is there any evidence of that? How is “irrational exuberance” a strawman on items that have high liquidity w/o flippers? Are you suggesting that no items would have it w/o flipping?

Ofcourse Anet is aware that it is next-to-impossible for casual players to buy gems with gold.

But guess what. ANet wants the gem prices to be high. ANet doesn’t want players to buy gems with gold, ANet wants you to buy them with dollars.

So, they don’t consider these high prices a problem. At the contrary.

Kruhljak.2705:

If someone offers you water when you’re parched, do you complain that the bottle isn’t big enough?

He doesn’t complain thatthe bottle isn’t big enough.

He complains that the price rises faster than an normal player can pay in gold.

It’s like saying ‘Oh, you’re parched? Well, too bad, this water is for rich people only’.

Essence Snow.3194:

Syeria.4812:

Essence Snow.3194:

Syeria.4812:

Economics is not a zero sum game. No one “loses” money because of flippers. In fact, flippers provide several fantastic benefits to everyone in the economy. Furthermore, the more people there are flipping, the smaller the margins are, which means higher insta-sell prices and lower insta-buy prices than the economy would have absent their presence.

I keep hearing about how flippers benefit everyone. I am curios to how. So they bring prices to equilibrium faster…..who does that benefit and why?

From what I gather from your post, it benefits impatient players and flippers. On the same token doesn’t that take away from player who are not impatient?

With the sheer number of players using the bltc the liquidity of most functional items is not really an issue. I contest that flipping creates more of an “irrational exuberance” for said items.

Beautiful strawman.

Flippers are the sole reason for price stability (which benefits everyone except for speculators) and market liquidity. So many people have pointed out ways that flippers benefit the economy (you even listed one in your own post!) but zero people have pointed out ways they harm it.

Sole reason? Is there any evidence of that? How is “irrational exuberance” a strawman on items that have high liquidity w/o flippers? Are you suggesting that no items would have it w/o flipping?

That’s not what a strawman is. The strawman is where you said “from what I gathered from your post” and then made up a really really silly claim so you could try discredit people who disagree with you, even though no one actually thinks the thing you claimed.

“Irrational exuberance” simply isn’t a thing. Flippers don’t create prices, and don’t meaningfully affect equilibrium prices so there’s really no negative you could be finding here. There are no items which are currently flipped who would have as small a spread between bid and ask in the absence of flippers. Having a limited spread is inherently a good thing for the market. Since there’s no negative results that anyone has established from flipping, that means flippers are necessarily a good thing.

Syeria.4812:

Essence Snow.3194:

Syeria.4812:

Essence Snow.3194:

Syeria.4812:

Economics is not a zero sum game. No one “loses” money because of flippers. In fact, flippers provide several fantastic benefits to everyone in the economy. Furthermore, the more people there are flipping, the smaller the margins are, which means higher insta-sell prices and lower insta-buy prices than the economy would have absent their presence.

I keep hearing about how flippers benefit everyone. I am curios to how. So they bring prices to equilibrium faster…..who does that benefit and why?

From what I gather from your post, it benefits impatient players and flippers. On the same token doesn’t that take away from player who are not impatient?

With the sheer number of players using the bltc the liquidity of most functional items is not really an issue. I contest that flipping creates more of an “irrational exuberance” for said items.

Beautiful strawman.

Flippers are the sole reason for price stability (which benefits everyone except for speculators) and market liquidity. So many people have pointed out ways that flippers benefit the economy (you even listed one in your own post!) but zero people have pointed out ways they harm it.

Sole reason? Is there any evidence of that? How is “irrational exuberance” a strawman on items that have high liquidity w/o flippers? Are you suggesting that no items would have it w/o flipping?

That’s not what a strawman is. The strawman is where you said “from what I gathered from your post” and then made up a really really silly claim so you could try discredit people who disagree with you, even though no one actually thinks the thing you claimed.

“Irrational exuberance” simply isn’t a thing. Flippers don’t create prices, and don’t meaningfully affect equilibrium prices so there’s really no negative you could be finding here. There are no items which are currently flipped who would have as small a spread between bid and ask in the absence of flippers. Having a limited spread is inherently a good thing for the market. Since there’s no negative results that anyone has established from flipping, that means flippers are necessarily a good thing.

When you denoted “insta-buy” and “insta-sell” as one of you points….my comment was directed at that, which would be in direct conflict of straw man definition.

I would contest that your position of a straw man was actually the straw man.

The bolded section of the quote seem to be in contradiction of each other.

“Irrational exuberance” was in quotations for a reason. The term implies a negative effect that creates unnecessarily high prices.

The only reason the gem prices are this high is because of the new Sab items and the Molten Alliance Pick, give it like two weeks they will be back to normal. In the meantime stop complaining. Thanks.

@Tallis: So, in other words, he’s complaining that there’s financial inequality between players? He might as well complain that some players have better-paying real world jobs as they too can acquire gems less painfully.

There will always be haves and have-less’es, and there’s no practical way around it—some players play 15 hours a day, some can’t, some can zoom through dungeons racking up tons of profits while others would rather slit their wrists that grind like that.

If the ratio were fixed at some mythical point where those who are complaining would stop complaining, there will be no incentive at all for those ex-complainers to spend actual $$ on gems, thus ANet will simply be cutting off a major potential, albeit grudging, revenue stream to please people that apparently have no desire to help fund the continued existence of the game they’re spending so much time enjoying (presumably). Simultaneously, it will bring more players that are willing to spend some cash here and there for gems into the group that doesn’t have to (i.e. a “moderate” fixed ratio means players need less in-game cash to get the stuff they want, thus reducing the revenue even more).

As I said before, the stuff in the gem store is not an entitlement, they’re not gifts for your time spent hacking mobs in the game (but even so, they/some CAN be). They’re there for ANet to make ends meet and then some. If you don’t like the exchange rate, frankly, tough beans (or come up with an actual FEASIBLE, mutually-beneficial alternative that will appeal to you and ANet…seems some folks think that’s easy to do…g’head…do it).

It may behoove some complainers to tone down their googly eyes and become practical like they have to in the real world. You can’t have it all in either place, because someone’s got to supply it, and they want reasonable compensation to keep doing so. In-game gold is entirely worthless to ANet. Not sure where the disconnect is between a game and the real world is when it comes to this basic concept.

Apologies for the length.

Tallis.5607:

People that ask for lower gem prices clearly miss the point of the gem store.

ANet will defend extreem high gem prices because THAT IS HOW THEY MAKE MONEY.

They hide this very well, ofcourse, claiming that players determine the price.
This is nonsense: ANet decided on the price mechanism, not the players.
- ANet sells all the gems that players buy and ANet sets the price for this. you can’t choice the price to sell gems, ANet will tell you what the price is.
- ANet did not put in buy and sell orders.
- ANet wrote the rules on gem prices, not the players.
- ANet never made their pricing formula public.

High gem prices are in ANet’s advantage. The higher the gem price in gold, the more people will pay with dollars. And in the end, that is what ANet want. ANet makes more money with high gem prices. They will not allow them to go down.

It’s basic economy.

It’s the Gnomes of Zurich controlling ArenaNet through their Orbital Mind Control Lasers I’m telling you! Get your tin foil hats on, it’s your only chance!

You are missing the point that ArenaNet didn’t need to provide a means to get Gems with in game currency at all. Sure early adopters got it cheap compared to today (also wasn’t a lot of gold in play at that point either) but as the exchange rate increases, more players will buy Gems as a way to generate Gold and not just for buying items in the store.

They aren’t actively manipulating the exchange rate other than releasing items into the store that a lot of (cheap/poor) people want. We do the rest.

Astraea.6075:

Hi Goatjugsoup,
As a fellow kiwi with a limited income I can empathize with your predicament, but there are some options you could try. I’ve been able to use my visa debit card to buy gems in the past, but failing that, you could look at getting one of the prepaid visa cards (think they may be called pressie cards or something similar). Another option could be to ask your local gamestore (such as EB Games) if they would consider carrying gem cards.

Hope these suggestions help.

I did try asking at one or two of them and they didn’t think there would be enough of a demand. I would be interested in looking into the visa prepaid thingie though, thanks for the suggestion.

Tallis.5607:

Kruhljak.2705:

If someone offers you water when you’re parched, do you complain that the bottle isn’t big enough?

He doesn’t complain thatthe bottle isn’t big enough.

He complains that the price rises faster than an normal player can pay in gold.

It’s like saying ‘Oh, you’re parched? Well, too bad, this water is for rich people only’.

Except the water is coca cola and your in the middle of the desert….
You don’t need soda, you need water. And the water is free, the soda is an unneeded convenience.

Behellagh.1468:

Sure early adopters got it cheap compared to today (also wasn’t a lot of gold in play at that point either)

You can turn it any way you want, but in the end the problem is very simple: casual players cannot buy gems with gold, plain and simple. And ANet allows this because that is how they make money: by selling gems for dollars.

I know that alot of people have warm and fuzzy feelings about gaming companies, loving their products and what they do.

But these companies have shareholders that need money every 3 months.
These companies have marketing departements to take every penny from your pocket.
And these companies have spin-doctors trying to convince you that they are not after your money but that YOU are in control.
I don’t know if ANet goes as far as -say- Apple and hire people to pretend to be customers.

But companies focus on making money.

High gem prices are a part of that.

Behellagh.1468:

They aren’t actively manipulating the exchange rate other than releasing items into the store that a lot of (cheap/poor) people want. We do the rest.

And you knows this because… ?

You know how they calculate prices? You are sure that they did not pick a mechanism that drives gem prices higher and higher?

How exactly do you know? Please tell me, I would like to know what information ANet ever released that makes you think that their price mechanism isn’t designed to raise the gem prices over time.

@Tallis: I’m unaware of any mechanism in the game that stops casual players from using the gem exchange to purchase gems with gold. If you perhaps mean that they can’t buy as many gems as people who spend 8 hours a day farming, then that’s not very surprising really.

And while I concede that the algorithm behind the exchange may indeed be weighted towards an increasing exchange rate (as I cannot provide evidence to prove or disprove such a theory), observing the history of the gem exchange rate has yet to show me any incidence of active manipulation by ANet.

Essence Snow.3194:

Syeria.4812:

Essence Snow.3194:

Syeria.4812:

Essence Snow.3194:

Syeria.4812:

Economics is not a zero sum game. No one “loses” money because of flippers. In fact, flippers provide several fantastic benefits to everyone in the economy. Furthermore, the more people there are flipping, the smaller the margins are, which means higher insta-sell prices and lower insta-buy prices than the economy would have absent their presence.

I keep hearing about how flippers benefit everyone. I am curios to how. So they bring prices to equilibrium faster…..who does that benefit and why?

From what I gather from your post, it benefits impatient players and flippers. On the same token doesn’t that take away from player who are not impatient?

With the sheer number of players using the bltc the liquidity of most functional items is not really an issue. I contest that flipping creates more of an “irrational exuberance” for said items.

Beautiful strawman.

Flippers are the sole reason for price stability (which benefits everyone except for speculators) and market liquidity. So many people have pointed out ways that flippers benefit the economy (you even listed one in your own post!) but zero people have pointed out ways they harm it.

Sole reason? Is there any evidence of that? How is “irrational exuberance” a strawman on items that have high liquidity w/o flippers? Are you suggesting that no items would have it w/o flipping?

That’s not what a strawman is. The strawman is where you said “from what I gathered from your post” and then made up a really really silly claim so you could try discredit people who disagree with you, even though no one actually thinks the thing you claimed.

“Irrational exuberance” simply isn’t a thing. Flippers don’t create prices, and don’t meaningfully affect equilibrium prices so there’s really no negative you could be finding here. There are no items which are currently flipped who would have as small a spread between bid and ask in the absence of flippers. Having a limited spread is inherently a good thing for the market. Since there’s no negative results that anyone has established from flipping, that means flippers are necessarily a good thing.

When you denoted “insta-buy” and “insta-sell” as one of you points….my comment was directed at that, which would be in direct conflict of straw man definition.

I would contest that your position of a straw man was actually the straw man.

The bolded section of the quote seem to be in contradiction of each other.

“Irrational exuberance” was in quotations for a reason. The term implies a negative effect that creates unnecessarily high prices.

I have to agree with Essence here. I can see where Syeria is coming from in that flippers create extra transactions in the economy, and competition between flippers will result in driving the price of an item/commodity towards its equilibrium faster. However, this is something that would have happened naturally over time anyway by first-time sellers (people who actually found/mined the item in the first place) seeing what their competitors are selling at, seeing what the customer base is willing to spend for it, and then pricing their item somewhere in the middle. Some of these sellers will also check back frequently, see that their listed price has risen above the lowest seller, and pull their item to re-list again at a lower price. Given the sheer volume of players using the TP, I think that any item would find its equilibrium within a short amount of time even without the presence of flippers.

I’ve also heard arguments that flippers guarantee stock presence in the market, but this is a false benefit considering that you can list items on the TP indefinitely, meaning that unlike a real world shop where the proprietor has to frequently clear his shelves to make room for new stock, any seller could just throw their items on the TP and let it sit there forever until a buyer does turn up. At the same time, any player can put up a buy order for whatever obscure item they want at any time, and wait for a seller to arrive. Flippers are just acting as middlemen, and are effectively an unnecessary link in the chain between buyer and seller.

Essence Snow.3194:

John Smith.4610:

I see no current issues with the exchange, it’s functioning very well. Remember for every opinion on which way should be “favored” there is at least one opinion for the opposite.

PS please stop calling everything inflation, it’s driving me mad.

For the new or casual player there definitely is an issue (ofc we have to look into what we define as an issue) as gold>gem is really not an option for them.

For the non casual or seasoned player…yeah, I’ll agree there’s no direct issue.

You’re still living with the false idea that gold>gems is the primary way to buy stuff in the gem store. It is an option for the dedicated, was always presented as such. As casuals, we got the gems>gold. That’s the whole set up.
This market is even dominated by the casuals, as gems have to be converted to gold, before the opposite is even possible.

What’s personally ticking me off is the HUGE difference between the sell price and the buy price for gems.

Average price to buy 100 gems: 2g 89s
Average price you get for 100 gems: 2g 14s

Where does that 75s go? Is it transaction costs? That means an almost 26% procent difference. That’s 12, yes, 12!!!!! TIMES AS MUCH AS ON THE ACTUAL FREAKING REAL LIFE STOCK MARKET.

It’s ridiculous. I know they want to make a profit by taking gold out of the economy. Personally I think it’s discouraging people from buying gems with real money and selling it for gold as well. Especially since they know they’re only going to get 75% of the actual value.

Rewiinded.9401:

What’s personally ticking me off is the HUGE difference between the sell price and the buy price for gems.

Average price to buy 100 gems: 2g 89s
Average price you get for 100 gems: 2g 14s

Where does that 75s go? Is it transaction costs? That means an almost 26% procent difference. That’s 12, yes, 12!!!!! TIMES AS MUCH AS ON THE ACTUAL FREAKING REAL LIFE STOCK MARKET.

It’s ridiculous. I know they want to make a profit by taking gold out of the economy. Personally I think it’s discouraging people from buying gems with real money and selling it for gold as well. Especially since they know they’re only going to get 75% of the actual value.

The bold part is quite important here.
Of course they want to discourage people from selling the gems for gold, since they want as many as possible to buy the gems with real money.

lordkrall.7241:

Rewiinded.9401:

What’s personally ticking me off is the HUGE difference between the sell price and the buy price for gems.

Average price to buy 100 gems: 2g 89s
Average price you get for 100 gems: 2g 14s

Where does that 75s go? Is it transaction costs? That means an almost 26% procent difference. That’s 12, yes, 12!!!!! TIMES AS MUCH AS ON THE ACTUAL FREAKING REAL LIFE STOCK MARKET.

It’s ridiculous. I know they want to make a profit by taking gold out of the economy. Personally I think it’s discouraging people from buying gems with real money and selling it for gold as well. Especially since they know they’re only going to get 75% of the actual value.

The bold part is quite important here.
Of course they want to discourage people from selling the gems for gold, since they want as many as possible to buy the gems with real money.

That’s why I think that giving a fair price in gold for the gems would in fact promote the buying of gems. Why? Because people won’t feel completely ripped off if they want some extra gold and want to take the shortcut of buying gems and selling them for gold.

Rewiinded.9401:

What’s personally ticking me off is the HUGE difference between the sell price and the buy price for gems.

Average price to buy 100 gems: 2g 89s
Average price you get for 100 gems: 2g 14s

Where does that 75s go? Is it transaction costs? That means an almost 26% procent difference. That’s 12, yes, 12!!!!! TIMES AS MUCH AS ON THE ACTUAL FREAKING REAL LIFE STOCK MARKET.

It’s ridiculous. I know they want to make a profit by taking gold out of the economy. Personally I think it’s discouraging people from buying gems with real money and selling it for gold as well. Especially since they know they’re only going to get 75% of the actual value.

This has been discussed at length in other threads.

The spread is there to help prevent arbitrage between the Gem -> Gold, and Gold -> Gem exchanges.

No conspiracy here. And “they” in no way directly profit by taking gold out of the economy. Please elaborate if you feel otherwise.

And horrible analogy between a spread and a return of a market. And for what it’s worth, the Dow Jones is up 11%, the S&P 9%, Nasdaq 6%, Nikkei 30%, and the FTSE 6% all YTD at the time of this post. So, not even sure which market you’re referring to.

Rewiinded.9401:

lordkrall.7241:

Rewiinded.9401:

What’s personally ticking me off is the HUGE difference between the sell price and the buy price for gems.

Average price to buy 100 gems: 2g 89s
Average price you get for 100 gems: 2g 14s

Where does that 75s go? Is it transaction costs? That means an almost 26% procent difference. That’s 12, yes, 12!!!!! TIMES AS MUCH AS ON THE ACTUAL FREAKING REAL LIFE STOCK MARKET.

It’s ridiculous. I know they want to make a profit by taking gold out of the economy. Personally I think it’s discouraging people from buying gems with real money and selling it for gold as well. Especially since they know they’re only going to get 75% of the actual value.

The bold part is quite important here.
Of course they want to discourage people from selling the gems for gold, since they want as many as possible to buy the gems with real money.

That’s why I think that giving a fair price in gold for the gems would in fact promote the buying of gems. Why? Because people won’t feel completely ripped off if they want some extra gold and want to take the shortcut of buying gems and selling them for gold.

The price is fair actually, the base price set at release for gold to gems was somewhere in the 25s per 100 range. The price for real world money to gems hasn’t changed at all.

In your fair price scenario, would the gem→gold→gem be equal? If so, what would prevent players from buying 1000’s of gems when the rate was say 1g, sitting on it for about 20 minutes and selling it back @ 1.2g? The disparity prevents this short term flipping and helps actually stabilize the market, keeping players from flooding the economy with gold.

I reflect again what John Smith said and say the gem market is performing really well.

Tallis.5607:

Behellagh.1468:

Sure early adopters got it cheap compared to today (also wasn’t a lot of gold in play at that point either)

You can turn it any way you want, but in the end the problem is very simple: casual players cannot buy gems with gold, plain and simple. And ANet allows this because that is how they make money: by selling gems for dollars.

I know that alot of people have warm and fuzzy feelings about gaming companies, loving their products and what they do.

But these companies have shareholders that need money every 3 months.
These companies have marketing departements to take every penny from your pocket.
And these companies have spin-doctors trying to convince you that they are not after your money but that YOU are in control.
I don’t know if ANet goes as far as -say- Apple and hire people to pretend to be customers.

But companies focus on making money.

High gem prices are a part of that.

Behellagh.1468:

They aren’t actively manipulating the exchange rate other than releasing items into the store that a lot of (cheap/poor) people want. We do the rest.

And you knows this because… ?

You know how they calculate prices? You are sure that they did not pick a mechanism that drives gem prices higher and higher?

How exactly do you know? Please tell me, I would like to know what information ANet ever released that makes you think that their price mechanism isn’t designed to raise the gem prices over time.

Wrong because I’m a casual player and I buy gems for gold all the time. A little every week. And it suffices because I don’t buy a lot of stuff at the Gem store. I’m saving up for extra character slots.

And you completely ignored my comment that they didn’t have to provide that at all and just have a straight up cash shop like most non-subscription MMOs.

And yes Gem sales are ArenaNet’s only source of income after game sale right now. So what, you thought the game is going to keep running on Facebook likes and retweets? Gem cards/proxy currency are meant for casual gamers. Can’t afford $15 a month, buy only when you need it. The gold to gem method is for either “hard core” players farming dungeons and established market mavens OR for some of us who convert a bit of our savings into gems every week.

And John Smith has described in broad strokes the workings of the exchange. Two pools, one stocked with a extremely large quantity of gems, one with gold when the game went live. The ratio between the two is used to set the exchange rates. As gold is converted to gems, the gem pool decreases while the gold pool increases and the ratio of gold to gems increases. Gems are only created in game via cash purchase and are destroyed at the gem store.

Yes this means that the exchange can run out of gems. Of course it also means that the price will go astronomical when that happens which should drive players to buy gems for cash to convert them to gold so the rate falls. We simply haven’t reached equilibrium yet.

As for inflation, well assuming the difference in the exchange rates doesn’t destroy gold like the BLTC fees do, then the gold pool will increase during parity exchanges and the rate will edge up.

Rewiinded.9401:

What’s personally ticking me off is the HUGE difference between the sell price and the buy price for gems.

Average price to buy 100 gems: 2g 89s
Average price you get for 100 gems: 2g 14s

Where does that 75s go? Is it transaction costs? That means an almost 26% procent difference. That’s 12, yes, 12!!!!! TIMES AS MUCH AS ON THE ACTUAL FREAKING REAL LIFE STOCK MARKET.

It’s ridiculous. I know they want to make a profit by taking gold out of the economy. Personally I think it’s discouraging people from buying gems with real money and selling it for gold as well. Especially since they know they’re only going to get 75% of the actual value.

If it wasn’t like this people would be transferring gems and playing the gem>gold/gold>gem market. Currently someone can not just sit in the game and transfer back and forth to make millions of gold or gems because of the loss from gold > gems. Which is a very good thing.

And the bolded part, who says they are only getting 75% of their value? How much is gold virtual currency worth in real life? If I head to the gas station and pay in GW2 gold, how much will it cost? Yea.. That doesn’t work. So the “worth” is your opinion. No one here can say what mine or your 1$ is worth in gems, or on gold, because it is an in game economy and always changing. But to clearly spell it out your 1$ is worth nothing in game, not a single penny. Because once that dollar goes in, it never becomes real tangible funds again.

With your view of how the exchange rate should work, I should be able to take my USD and go to any country and it should be worth the same. 1$=1euro, 1$=1pound. Not going to happen.

Nihevil.8024:

The only reason the gem prices are this high is because of the new Sab items and the Molten Alliance Pick, give it like two weeks they will be back to normal. In the meantime stop complaining. Thanks.

There’s no “normal”. The exchange ratio is mainly defined by the relationship between the goods that can be bought by gold on the trading post to those bought by gems in the shop. Every new product added to the cash shop makes it more attractive (relatively to the trading post). Thus after the initial spike the exchange ratio will decline a bit, but never return to its old level. To backup this argument: just take a loot at the graph at gw2spidy.
ANet will keep introducing new items to its store with every patch, so better get used to a high exchange ratio.

Pandemoniac.4739:

munkiman.3068:

John Smith.4610:

I see no current issues with the exchange, it’s functioning very well. Remember for every opinion on which way should be “favored” there is at least one opinion for the opposite.

PS please stop calling everything inflation, it’s driving me mad.

I mentioned this the other day in another thread, it bugs me too. The cost to play the game hasn’t changed one copper since release. The only thing that has increased is the desire to acquire those big screen tvs you guys are selling on the TP Too bad the parts to make them are scarce.

Inflation is awesome – it lets you live in a more expensive neighborhood without moving!

I pre-ordered so I’ve been playing since the head start and I’ve been pretty happy with how well my gold has retained its value. I’ve been entertaining myself by clicking the “all” button on Spidy, and it’s impressive really how quickly most items found their value and how little prices are rising in the long term. There are some exceptions, but we’re talking about inflation, so they aren’t relevant.

inflation is a hidden tax…..

marnick.4305:

Essence Snow.3194:

John Smith.4610:

I see no current issues with the exchange, it’s functioning very well. Remember for every opinion on which way should be “favored” there is at least one opinion for the opposite.

PS please stop calling everything inflation, it’s driving me mad.

For the new or casual player there definitely is an issue (ofc we have to look into what we define as an issue) as gold>gem is really not an option for them.

For the non casual or seasoned player…yeah, I’ll agree there’s no direct issue.

You’re still living with the false idea that gold>gems is the primary way to buy stuff in the gem store. It is an option for the dedicated, was always presented as such. As casuals, we got the gems>gold. That’s the whole set up.
This market is even dominated by the casuals, as gems have to be converted to gold, before the opposite is even possible.

Well ty for telling me what my ideas are. I was evidently unaware that I thought it was the primary way.

The bolded is what I actually take issue with. The issue that the whole thing is ever becoming less of an option for the casual and new players. Some of the major draws of GW2 (apart from general gameplay) for a lot of players were 1) no montlhy fee 2) no advantages in cs. No. 2 got sidestepped by using the term conveniences and offering the option of converting ig currency to gems. Well since the latter is trending in one direction, I am afraid it’ll have a negative effect on new and casual players, which are needed to sustain a healthy population in this genre. A cutting off one’s nose despite one’s face sorta deal. It’s counter intuitive imo.

Geotherma.2395:

Kraggy.4169:

Geotherma.2395:

Lol people shouldn’t “need” to convert gems to gold. It isn’t that hard to earn

Well, since most people seem to make gold in-game by ‘flipping’ items on TP and price-gouging, rather than actually doing something positive then I’ll pass on that, thanks.

I don’t I work for mine, no TP flipping here :P

I for one would love to know how you do this. I’ve been playing since before halloween last year, and I regularly do dungeons/fractals (at lvl 20 atm) and wvw. I haven’t done any “flipping” and I would say that I probably have around 30g floating between my characters. My main mesmer is fairly decently equipped in full exotics and ascended items(no legendaries or custom made armour) and I have master crafting completed. I would estimate that I’ve lost at least 100g to gold sinks in the game, holding runes (not even the 20 slot ones) and siege equipment etc. So far the best return I’ve found in the game is to run lvl 18+ fractals, probably netting around 1.5g per run. I don’t see how this is a good return for time spent by any measure considering the price of just 1 berserker insignia let alone a legendary precursor for example. So lets be generous and say that all in all, over the ~8 months I’ve been playing the game, I’ve netted 180g, of which at least 50g has been lost in essential taxes (WPs and repairs).

I like the idea of crafting, and imo it should be possible to make a decent in-game “living” off of it. unfortunately atm margin for actually crafting items is 0% when compared to the raw materials, and while I am financially inclined irl, I’m not really interested in wasting a lot of time playing an in-game market.

I should be also able to earn decent cash by gearing up well and going to kill stuff that is otherwise difficult/impossible to kill. Atm it is all so randomized and littered with junk that forces me to eventually fill up inventory and go sink maybe 6 silver into waypoint travel to sell. Kind of reminds me of the Karka event where 1/200 people opened the chest and got precursors worth many 100s of gold (they were minimum of 300g on TP at the time IIRC), while everyone else makes do with drops barely worth 1g if that, even though we all fought our behinds off.

I know this post sounds a bit sour, but I’m certainly not feeling like my effort in-game has been suitably rewarded.

Aurisai.3416:

Geotherma.2395:

Kraggy.4169:

Geotherma.2395:

Lol people shouldn’t “need” to convert gems to gold. It isn’t that hard to earn

Well, since most people seem to make gold in-game by ‘flipping’ items on TP and price-gouging, rather than actually doing something positive then I’ll pass on that, thanks.

I don’t I work for mine, no TP flipping here :P

I for one would love to know how you do this. I’ve been playing since before halloween last year, and I regularly do dungeons/fractals (at lvl 20 atm) and wvw. I haven’t done any “flipping” and I would say that I probably have around 30g floating between my characters. My main mesmer is fairly decently equipped in full exotics and ascended items(no legendaries or custom made armour) and I have master crafting completed. I would estimate that I’ve lost at least 100g to gold sinks in the game, holding runes (not even the 20 slot ones) and siege equipment etc. So far the best return I’ve found in the game is to run lvl 18+ fractals, probably netting around 1.5g per run. I don’t see how this is a good return for time spent by any measure considering the price of just 1 berserker insignia let alone a legendary precursor for example. So lets be generous and say that all in all, over the ~8 months I’ve been playing the game, I’ve netted 180g, of which at least 50g has been lost in essential taxes (WPs and repairs).

I like the idea of crafting, and imo it should be possible to make a decent in-game “living” off of it. unfortunately atm margin for actually crafting items is 0% when compared to the raw materials, and while I am financially inclined irl, I’m not really interested in wasting a lot of time playing an in-game market.

I should be also able to earn decent cash by gearing up well and going to kill stuff that is otherwise difficult/impossible to kill. Atm it is all so randomized and littered with junk that forces me to eventually fill up inventory and go sink maybe 6 silver into waypoint travel to sell. Kind of reminds me of the Karka event where 1/200 people opened the chest and got precursors worth many 100s of gold (they were minimum of 300g on TP at the time IIRC), while everyone else makes do with drops barely worth 1g if that, even though we all fought our behinds off.

I know this post sounds a bit sour, but I’m certainly not feeling like my effort in-game has been suitably rewarded.

If your goal is to make money you will find a way. Not every way to make money is fun, and not every fun thing to do makes money. If you play just to enjoy the game you probably won’t see that kind of gold unless what you enjoy falls under a few various routes of play. The biggest secret to making money in GW2 is the same for most every MMO and that is efficiency. Knowing what makes you money, and how much time you need to dedicate to it is how you get what you want. I dislike dungeons, so it isn’t COF, and I don’t do TP flipping. But people focus far too much on trying to make money through one single thing, and that is exactly what is holding them back. Game wasn’t created in a way that you can just corner one aspect and be rich, or get everything. But I can’t write a guide on how to make money either, because I had to learn my own way and what I enjoyed doing. And that balance can’t be found in any guide.

Now on the other side of this I just want to mention you can do just fine playing the game normally. You may not see hundreds of gold, but you will have fun and make enough to get by. And the best things in game can’t be bought with gold anyway.

Aurisai.3416:

So lets be generous and say that all in all, over the ~8 months I’ve been playing the game, I’ve netted 180g, of which at least 50g has been lost in essential taxes (WPs and repairs).

This was my experience as well. I’ve been playing since September and prior to the changes they made to boss event loot I was barely scraping 200g (most of which has gone toward account upgrades). Even now I make maybe ~1.5g a day (if I’m lucky) and that’s only if the rares I get from the events sell.

I know this post sounds a bit sour, but I’m certainly not feeling like my effort in-game has been suitably rewarded.

Well, I relate. I’ve tried everything but CoF runs because I hate dungeons. I’m basically a failure at anything related to the TP. I’ve tried farming Orr, but I’ve never made anywhere near the per hour profit others claim nor can I stand to do it for long.

As an altoholic, it really sucks. This is the first MMO I’ve played where having an alt is a financial burden instead of a boon, especially when they add items like the mining pick that aren’t even account bound. There’s definitely no way my income can keep up with having to buy separate items for 8 different characters.

Kaiza.4618:

I get it that ANet needs to make some cash on Gem sales, I really do but if the common player like myself or a new player is unable to even buy bag or bank slots for a reasonable value with what he/she earns, this game is going to die a quick death Imo.

I’ve only been playing the game solid for a month or so myself. Thanks to the high rate of gold for gems, a couple days back I was able to cash in 100 gems and score a full Tier 1 cultural set for my main. Now he’s rocking the Sylvari pimp coat. If the rate stays high today, I’ll cash in another 100 gems so I can shore up the crafting materials he’ll need to make his level 40 gear. I thank everyone glutting the market with their excess gold, its coming in handy for some of us up and coming crafters.

And new players having to spend cash for bank and alt slots is a bad thing? We already paid $40 plus to get in the door, and its not like we’re already paying $15 a month. Its a cash shop, not a grind shop.

The gem price……
http://i36.tinypic.com/4gy7p.jpg

Gems are a rich man’s investment. Just buy hundreds and hundreds of gold’s worth. Put feet up. Come back in a few months and convert back. Oh look… ££££ Profit!

There should definitely NOT be a regulation of prices. The players will regulate it themselves. Just because you’re too poor too afford it, doesn’t mean the system isn’t working.

Also, it’s not half the price for the conversion, it’s 30%, to keep people from flipping gems (even though you still can… or could have, for long term).

Once the prices are too high, people will start converting gems to gold, cash out on their investment, and the prices will drop until people start converting gold to gems again.

It’s fine the way it is, I’d rather Anet not regulate it (even though already do with gold drop)

Uruz Six.6594:

Kaiza.4618:

I get it that ANet needs to make some cash on Gem sales, I really do but if the common player like myself or a new player is unable to even buy bag or bank slots for a reasonable value with what he/she earns, this game is going to die a quick death Imo.

I’ve only been playing the game solid for a month or so myself. Thanks to the high rate of gold for gems, a couple days back I was able to cash in 100 gems and score a full Tier 1 cultural set for my main. Now he’s rocking the Sylvari pimp coat. If the rate stays high today, I’ll cash in another 100 gems so I can shore up the crafting materials he’ll need to make his level 40 gear. I thank everyone glutting the market with their excess gold, its coming in handy for some of us up and coming crafters.

And new players having to spend cash for bank and alt slots is a bad thing? We already paid $40 plus to get in the door, and its not like we’re already paying $15 a month. Its a cash shop, not a grind shop.

I was under the impression it wasnt supposed to be a cash shop to begin with. All this does now is give the F2P haters more fuel for their fire, and I can no longer argue against them.

Where’d you get that impression? What else did you think it would be? It’s the method ANet uses to generate revenue to keep the game moving along, and there was nothing hidden about it. They can’t do it with in-game gold, after all. There was no chicanery involved in the way it was described, if that’s what you mean. It’s a place to buy conveniences and basic options such as character slots…with gems(=cash). There’s no pay to win in there, since there is no WoWist infinite gear treadmill carrot in the game to “win.”

Just so happens there’s also an option to trade in-game gold for those gems. Which, one would think, should put a nice clamp on any F2P whiners out there; though no doubt, nothing short of an industrial vise could hope to shut them up.

I just wish I’d had a ton of gold to spend on gems right after launch when 100gems was 30s.

Kruhljak.2705:

Where’d you get that impression? What else did you think it would be? It’s the method ANet uses to generate revenue to keep the game moving along, and there was nothing hidden about it. They can’t do it with in-game gold, after all. There was no chicanery involved in the way it was described, if that’s what you mean. It’s a place to buy conveniences and basic options such as character slots…with gems(=cash). There’s no pay to win in there, since there is no WoWist infinite gear treadmill carrot in the game to “win.”

Just so happens there’s also an option to trade in-game gold for those gems. Which, one would think, should put a nice clamp on any F2P whiners out there; though no doubt, nothing short of an industrial vise could hope to shut them up.

You’re right, to a point. Fair enough, you can get full exotics, and 2/3 pieces of ascended gear without having to have too much gold. Currently to my knowledge, it is not possible to acquire ascended gear in all slots without a very significant amount of ectos (350 iirc) amongst other things. At 22s each, which was the last TP price I saw, that is 77g. Given that it would take me well over a month to grind that amount of gold, the person that just buys gold with gems has a very very clear advantage as they can just buy the items outright and have a stat advantage (ascended items are more powerful than exotics) over me until such time as I’m able to grind to get the gear.

Now I’m going to really drive our Anet friend crazy with my next statement (please don’t take offence) The very fact that it is possible to buy gold with rl money, albeit through indirect trade of gems, introduces a large amount of gold into the in-game economy that wasn’t “earned” through farming. If this increase in the gold supply is not counteracted strongly enough with gold sinks, we have a textbook economic definition of inflation (an expansion of the money supply, which cannot but eventually lead to higher prices).

Even with strong enough gold sinks, and imo the current gold sinks are pretty strong, these sinks are biased against those that merely play the game as opposed to those who buy their gold. Those who trade or flip for profit do have some form of gold sink levied against them in trade levies, but I would argue that since they indeed make a profit from the trade, once again the tax is just being redirected to the consumer of those goods, i.e. the people just playing the game for the pure enjoyment of it.

In short, I believe it is alright to turn gold into gems. It is not alright for gems to be translated into gold. The simple reason is this, someone who earns the gold in-game cannot hope to compete with someone that simply buys the gold. Therefore it follows logically that the person selling the item in demand will obviously ask for the higher price, thereby inflating the value of the item beyond the point which one could reasonably expect to earn the item by doing in-game activities.

Don’t get me wrong, it is completely reasonable for Anet to be compensated via the cash shop. The typical MMO that I’ve played in the past has been in the range of $10-$15 per month and I’m more than happy to spend that, and I have bought expansion slots and bank slots and bag slots etc etc. I just fundamentally don’t like the idea of buying in-game currency directly. Why go through the process of earning a legendary if I can just buy it?

Aurisai.3416:

…
Now I’m going to really drive our Anet friend crazy with my next statement (please don’t take offence) The very fact that it is possible to buy gold with rl money, albeit through indirect trade of gems, introduces a large amount of gold into the in-game economy that wasn’t “earned” through farming. If this increase in the gold supply is not counteracted strongly enough with gold sinks, we have a textbook economic definition of inflation (an expansion of the money supply, which cannot but eventually lead to higher prices).
…

Don’t worry about it.

Favorable Gem -> Gold simply means more gold is being exchanged for gems, which causes gem appreciation. Or, viewed another way, players have excess gold that they would rather exchange for BLTC Gem based items over in game Gold based items.

“Value” is relative, for someone with excess gold, Gold to Gems is favorable. Conversely, for someone with excess cash, Gems to Gold is more attractive. The exchange rate reflects the trending viewpoint.

As Mr. Smith mentioned, the BLTC is working as intended.

John Smith.4610:

Aurisai.3416:

If this increase in the gold supply is not counteracted strongly enough with gold sinks, we have a textbook economic definition of inflation.

“In economics, inflation is a rise in the general level of prices of goods and services in an economy over a period of time”

Time for new textbooks; change in money supply is not a change in price level, they are not interchangeable.

A quaggan dies every time Mr Smith has to explain and or see the word inf… I’ll save one, just this once.

There’s also no real cost of goods and services. Unless you’re paying all the npcs in the game a working wage to make all these goods and sell all these services

Not sure how you can take a game economy and relate it to a real world one in scope.

I still think the average earning potential of players is a bit on the low side. I would think in a video game, people probaly shouldn’t be struggling with getting some of those nifty luxury goods.

Geotherma.2395:

(…)
A quaggan dies every time Mr Smith has to explain and or see the word inf… I’ll save one, just this once.

Well, just a thought here, instead of explaining maybe it’s time to change people’s perception. You can say “it’s working as intended” all the time, but if the topic still keeps popping up and you are getting annoyed by it (paraphrasing, don’t remember what the exact words were) then maybe you should start doing something.

Not trying to be negative, just pointing out that there obviously is room for improvement – if not in functionality (because it works perfect) then in form and presentation.

Players can’t accept that gems in the exchange are a fixed quantity that will only decrease as long as people aren’t buying gems with cash and use them to convert to gold.

That decreasing quantity of supply at the exchange will naturally raise it’s price.

“Yes, but gems are virtual they can just make more.” Yes but gems bought with cash is what keeping the game alive. You pay cash, poof, they’ll create gems. They aren’t going to create any just to keep Joe cheap skate happy.

Game’s been up for nearly 8 months and if this was a subscription game and if you played the entire time ANet would have gotten around $100 from each of you. So loosen up your purse strings, quite buying your Starbuck coffee or late night dorm pizza delivery for a day and buy some gems if you really want something on sale (since the spikes mostly happen when something widely desirable goes on sale). Or do a little gem cost averaging by buying some gems every week knowing at some point it’s likely something you want will come along. What are you hording that gold for anyways, if you are really that cheap/poor?

Sorry if I come off a bit harsh but ANet needs money too.

John Smith.4610:

Aurisai.3416:

If this increase in the gold supply is not counteracted strongly enough with gold sinks, we have a textbook economic definition of inflation.

“In economics, inflation is a rise in the general level of prices of goods and services in an economy over a period of time”

Time for new textbooks; change in money supply is not a change in price level, they are not interchangeable.

However:

“Economists generally agree that high rates of inflation and hyperinflation are caused by an excessive growth of the money supply.”

(Same “textbook” source as your quote.)

~MRA