Guild Wars 2

Essence Snow.3194:

Behellagh.1468:

Essence Snow.3194:

Schizo.1375:

Essence Snow.3194:

Like a pack of rabid wolves……..lol

Are we wrong? If so than please provide some input that shows it instead of snide insults.

You haven’t provided any insight on why you are right. Most all you do is argue semantics.

What would be wrong with a progressive tax placed at the end?

It would sink more gold.
It would slow the widening of the wealth gap.
It wouldn’t slow liquidity of trade.

I don’t see anything negative about it tbh. The rich wouldn’t be as rich, but they don’t need to be<—isn’t that one of ya’lls….lol

But a progressive tax on what? Net worth?

A progressive tax on transaction price only “hurts” the wealthy, since that’s the whole point about this discussion, if their wealth only came from flippy high priced items instead of flipping a metric ton of low priced items, earning a little off of each.

“Hey, you won the lottery and found a precursor but it’s for a weapon you don’t use. Now you can sell it for a ton of gold but the new progressive tax will take a much larger chunk because you must be a rich flipper.”

It would be on the gold collected via the tp. So lets say in a given week you took out 70g, well then you’d be taxed at the normal rate of 15%. If you took out 140g, then you’d taxed at 20%, etc etc. Ofc this is just an example for the sake of providing an example.

The players that mostly use the tp for day to day transactions wouldn’t see any difference. Those that got lucky with a drop would still be lucky for the drop just not as much gold would come from it. They’d still be profiting from the drop much more than from any normal drop. Those that make massive profit on the tp would be the ones effected. They’d still be the richest, as playing the tp would still be the most profitable method of obtaining gold, but at a reduced rate. They just have to work a bit harder if the wanted what they don’t need.

So somebody who farms more than 10g of loot per day, will get punished?
People who get a valuable item worth more than 70g will get punished?
Someone, who makes 4% profit (after fees and taxes) while trading 140g worth of goods in a week will actually make a loss of 1% at the end of the week?

And how are taxes collected retroactively? Will Evon make house calls?

What if i hide my gold in a guild bank? Will i get banned from the TP?

I know that you said its just an example but unfortunately its a bad one at that because it wont change the fact that some people earn more on the tp than others in pve. So why change the system, if it hurts everybody and doesnt change the status quo?

Wanze.8410:

Essence Snow.3194:

Behellagh.1468:

Essence Snow.3194:

Schizo.1375:

Essence Snow.3194:

Like a pack of rabid wolves……..lol

Are we wrong? If so than please provide some input that shows it instead of snide insults.

You haven’t provided any insight on why you are right. Most all you do is argue semantics.

What would be wrong with a progressive tax placed at the end?

It would sink more gold.
It would slow the widening of the wealth gap.
It wouldn’t slow liquidity of trade.

I don’t see anything negative about it tbh. The rich wouldn’t be as rich, but they don’t need to be<—isn’t that one of ya’lls….lol

But a progressive tax on what? Net worth?

A progressive tax on transaction price only “hurts” the wealthy, since that’s the whole point about this discussion, if their wealth only came from flippy high priced items instead of flipping a metric ton of low priced items, earning a little off of each.

“Hey, you won the lottery and found a precursor but it’s for a weapon you don’t use. Now you can sell it for a ton of gold but the new progressive tax will take a much larger chunk because you must be a rich flipper.”

It would be on the gold collected via the tp. So lets say in a given week you took out 70g, well then you’d be taxed at the normal rate of 15%. If you took out 140g, then you’d taxed at 20%, etc etc. Ofc this is just an example for the sake of providing an example.

The players that mostly use the tp for day to day transactions wouldn’t see any difference. Those that got lucky with a drop would still be lucky for the drop just not as much gold would come from it. They’d still be profiting from the drop much more than from any normal drop. Those that make massive profit on the tp would be the ones effected. They’d still be the richest, as playing the tp would still be the most profitable method of obtaining gold, but at a reduced rate. They just have to work a bit harder if the wanted what they don’t need.

So somebody who farms more than 10g of loot per day, will get punished?
People who get a valuable item worth more than 70g will get punished?
Someone, who makes 4% profit (after fees and taxes) while trading 140g worth of goods in a week will actually make a loss of 1% at the end of the week?

And how are taxes collected retroactively? Will Evon make house calls?

What if i hide my gold in a guild bank? Will i get banned from the TP?

I know that you said its just an example but unfortunately its a bad one at that because it wont change the fact that some people earn more on the tp than others in pve. So why change the system, if it hurts everybody and doesnt change the status quo?

Everything there is semantics…………you even admit it. So what was the point of even posting it?

Essence Snow.3194:

Everything there is semantics…………you even admit it. So what was the point of even posting it?

Excuse me? I just admitted to the study of meaning?

You have been suggesting a progressive tax to hurt rich players in several topics while only giving vague examples that wont serve this purpose, while punished every player.

And you claim that you are concerned with the overall health of GW2?

Why not make a proper, thought out suggestion?

Personally i am not generally against a progressive tax towards players that make alot of profit just because i am one of them. I accumulated enough value that i dont need more gold. I play the tp for fun.

So why do you post about usual suspects and rabid wolves, if you got nothing contructive to add?

You’re excused.

There’s no point in of a proper thought out suggestion on a forum infested with mmo forum goers. The median is not very productive..we all know this. Lots of mmo forum goers simply post to mess with other ppl for one reason or another. If I thought that something good might have a chance of coming from it, I might. But realistically there isn’t a chance in he double hockey sticks.

Just pointing out the obvious….tis all.

Gonna give this a break for today…bb tomorrow….lol

DarkSpirit.7046:

[…]

You forget something very important.

Guild Wars 2 is a game.

It’s meant to be fun.

And doing those things is extremely boring.

No one has fun with that. If they tell you they have fun doing that, they are lying. They have fun with the stuff they get with he money they make, but they never have fun doing that.

People doing that will earn more, but those that find that boring would have to choose between having fun and having coin.

GW2 has lots of alternate ways to make money, but most of them give more or less the same amount of coin. Easier things giving less, harder things giving a bit more.

These TP schemes are a spike in earnings that if it’s not to be stopped, should at least be put in line with the rest of income sources.

Essence Snow.3194:

You’re excused.

There’s no point in of a proper thought out suggestion on a forum infested with mmo forum goers. The median is not very productive..we all know this. Lots of mmo forum goers simply post to mess with other ppl for one reason or another. If I thought that something good might have a chance of coming from it, I might. But realistically there isn’t a chance in he double hockey sticks.

Just pointing out the obvious….tis all.

Gonna give this a break for today…bb tomorrow….lol

Your own post sums you up pretty nicely but dont assume the same for everybody else.

But thanks for your honesty about just being here to troll, i will just ignore you on the forums then.

Please refrain from sending me pms in the future.

Ohoni.6057:

… My own argument here is that ANet should step in and add mechanisms that make trading a less profitable system, one that is more of a waste of time, so that people trading now will not want to continue trading…
Continued. . .

That’s a poorly thought out argument. The TP is a massive source of resources and there is limited ability to farm specific materials. If it’s not profitable to trade, people are less likely to use the TP and post mats they have less use for and prices would go up for people that want these materials for specific items. As long as mats are semi-randomly gotten and the TP is the main source of these specific mats, TP trading needs to be ENCOURAGED.

But they are valid points President Snow (see what I did there ).

If you base the tax rate on the amount waiting for pickup at the TP then it hurts those who pick up infrequently and doesn’t impact those who camp there.

If you base it on the price it’s was sold at then it only affects those selling big ticket items Vs those selling a lot of smaller ticket items.

If at the first of the month you generate a tax bill based on total amount sold what happens if they player doesn’t have that amount of coin on hand? Ban them from selling until the tax is paid?

Do you look at the player’s net worth on the TP? The coin for all the bids they have in plus sale price of all items up for sale. Wouldn’t a salvager or MF gambler also be caught up in that net?

It’s easy to say tax the rich, or in this case the supposedly wealthy TP mavens, but the trick is differentiating them from the lucky or everyday player in Tyria. And secondary is what would the impact be to the marketplace that would affect all players. Will prices go down or up? How about supply?

It complicated trying to shaft one group without impacting others.

MithranArkanere.8957:

DarkSpirit.7046:

[…]

You forget something very important.

Guild Wars 2 is a game.

It’s meant to be fun.

And doing those things is extremely boring.

I’ll be the first person to say that fun is more subjective than you think. Some people here have said that crafting is boring but I find crafting to be fun and I am making lots of exciting profits from it. Crafting is also challenging for me to come up with workable solutions. Most scripts like those in gw2spidy or gw2craft assume that there are infinite number of items at a given cost. It even says so on its website:

http://www.gw2crafts.net/

“This script does assume there are “infinite” of an item at a given cost, so if they all get bought up, or there is very few available during the update window prices may be wrong until the next update"

But I am proud to have written a better algorithm that doesn’t have to assume “infinite”. So I have essentially taken something that is suppose to be bland and boring and turn it into a personal challenge that is rewarding.

Sure, I am extending what crafting means outside the game box, but as long as I am having fun and not breaking any rules, who cares? I am not going to let you or anyone else tell me what is suppose to be fun and what is not. I believe I am more than capable of defining that for myself. I love solving puzzles and improving on how things can be done. That is my idea of having fun.

Ohhh, well why didn’t you SAY so earlier!

No.

Well I don’t expect the people who currently game the system to love the idea. Ask the banks what bank regulations would be nice to have. . .

1) It puts pressure on the “poor player” who now has to pay more for the same goods
2) Not all “rich players” are Flippers. Farmers who sell Rare/Exotic items they find will get richer faster, since they’re only hit with a 5% tax on listing fees.

1. Maybe, I’m not so sure. Since the prices are currently set by how much people are willing to pay, it’s possible that if a fee is shifted to the consumer, that the market would correct itself. Prices would shift to be 10% lower, or at least close to it. I’m not sure on that, but it’s possible.

2. I don’t see that as a problem. Those people are at least out playing the game, if perhaps a bit too often. If the farmers are viewed as a problem, then the solution involves anti-farming mechanisms, not marketplace mechanisms, such as having a global DR after a certain point. I’m not sure that I would pull that trigger myself though.

And I agree on principle with essence, the goal is not to “punish” rich players, that implies a moral deficit at play that I don’t believe is necessary here. This is merely a corrective measure to bring their profits more in line with the average player’s, it is not that they are doing something “bad” and should be reprimanded for them, it’s just that the tactics that the game allows them to use are unbalanced, and so balancing measures need to be taken.

It’s no different than Zerker Warriors, they currently do a lot of damage with very low risk, but that’s not the fault of any players, and players should not be “punished” for that, but that doesn’t mean it’s unreasonable to either nerf that build a bit, or buff up other builds so that the imbalance is corrected.

Working 17 days maximum to unlock the best crafting seems rather short to me and should seem even shorter to you since your philosophy seems to be all about PvE grinding to get rewards.

I don’t think “grinding” is a positive goal, but I do believe that PvE activities should result in the best rewards. It’s to that 17 days is an unreasonable amount of time in and of itself, but my point was that a player with a lot of gold on hand could accomplish the goal within an hour or less. You pointed out that it would only take the player with no money a couple of weeks to accomplish the same task, which doesn’t exactly kill my point that the monied have an easier path towards a lot of the ingame rewards.

That everyone should play the game the same as you.

I don’t think everyone should play the game the same as me. If you want to play the TP all day, knock yourself out. I just don’t think that ANY method, even the one I prefer, should be so massively more rewarding than any other. I spend most of my time doing world events. I get that this is not the most efficient method, even through PvE combat, of earning gold, but I enjoy it. If they made it so that world event daily chests suddenly started dropping 2g each, allowing me to make 14-18g per night playing my usual way, I’d find that pretty great, but I’d also understand that it isn’t balanced relative to other activities, and if they then chose to nerf it back down to more usual levels, or buffed up other activities to similar levels, then I’d have no justification for complaining about it.

This has nothing to do with wanting other players to play any differently than they do now, it is about balancing the rewards. If your assertion is that players currently ONLY play the markets because it offers the best rewards, and that they would stop if it did not, then that’s fine, let them do other things. If they play the TP because that’s what they enjoy, then they should continue doing so even if the rewards from it are no better than from other activities.

You make it sound easy to just drop thousands of gold on something. But what about the work that went into building up that wealth? The months, the research, the failures, everything to earn the wealth theses people have today? Is this really not “personal achievement”?

Yeah, but I’ve put in the same amount of months of work and effort, and I don’t have that choice to make. There’s a thread on reddit right now where people are talking about how they’ve sold multiple Legendaries, I’ve never had enough to afford even one, much less to gear up several of my characters. I’m not saying that TP players don’t put in any effort, or that they don’t deserve any reward, I’m just saying that currently they make way more reward for their effort than through other activities, and that needs to be balanced out.

Please accept this fact: No master planning whatsoever will keep the players BOTH 1) completely “equal” in level of wealth and 2) playing the game. The former will result in negation of the latter. If there are no players, this entire conversation is ethereal.

First, nobody is asking for or expecting “completely equal,” just something a bit closer to equal. Second, players that would leave just because they couldn’t be richer than other players are no great loss. Let them go if they want. The majority of players would be happier to have the stuff that they wanted.

Ohhh capitalist shiny object just popped in my head: I need a couple experienced game coders… given the increasing number of people going down this road in games lately, I think I have a great idea for a new game tailoring to them… thinking Forward!Online is kinda catchy.

I think you’d be better off just making a market simulator. For people that really enjoy playing the TP, why do they even need all the maps and sword and monsters, even the 3D graphics? Just have the TP interface as a web/mobile app, have NPCs “fighting mobs” to “get loot” and adding the armor and weapons and mats to the TP, and all the players do all day is buy and sell them to make currency. The TP players could have all their fun without disrupting the economy that all the other players have to work with. If as many players as you insist really love the TP play, then I don’t see how it could fail.

The TP is a massive source of resources and there is limited ability to farm specific materials. I

To paraphrase those inflationistas out there, the TP is not a source of anything. Every item on the TP came from another player, the TP is just a transportation mechanism.

Now yes, the TP is an invaluable way of balancing out RNG and farming, by allowing players to convert gold from one activity into specific rewards that they did not drop, and nobody’s talking about reducing the TP’s function in that role, but hardcore traders are not needed to keep that running. All you need is the players who find items they don’t want, and the players who want items that they weren’t able to find themselves, and both of these player types would exist with or without hardcore traders siphoning profits in the middle.

ESO currently has a 25% transaction fee on their markets, and I am in NO way suggesting that here, ESO’s markets are an unbridled fiasco, but I’m only mentioning it to point out that even with those fees players still list items on the markets, it doesn’t stop anyone.

If I end up with mats or loot I don’t need, and I can sell them for even a few net copper over vendor, I’ll sell them. Hell, even if I’ll just break even on vendor I’ll often TP them, just to “give them a good home.” If I need an item on the market, and it’s reasonably affordable, I’ll buy it. It would be very difficult for them to make changes to the TP that would actually kill it’s primary function, but of course any corrective measures they take should be minimal, just enough to balance out the profit margins of high volume/high value trading, with minimal impact to the average player.

If you base the tax rate on the amount waiting for pickup at the TP then it hurts those who pick up infrequently and doesn’t impact those who camp there.

If you base it on the price it’s was sold at then it only affects those selling big ticket items Vs those selling a lot of smaller ticket items.

What if you base it on the amount waiting for pick-up, but the rate only applies to their next pick-up, and degrades over time? I haven’t considered the balance of these numbers, so don’t bother telling me they are too high or low, I’m just discussing the principle here, but let’s say that you sell 100g of goods, and you collect on that, and receive the standard 85g in returns. Then the next day you make another 100g, this time an additional 10% tax is applied, but you also lose 1% of that bonus tax each day, so you only make 76g back. The next day you’ve accrued another 10% tax, and gained another 1% back, so you’d bring in 65g, and so on if you continue to make such profits until it soft caps off at some point.

Another player makes 100g, and again takes the standard 85g from that, and on his next transaction he would see that additional 10% tax, but the next day it goes down by 1%, and the next by another 1%, and so on, so within ten days it would be gone, and so if he only made 100g on average around once or twice month, he wouldn’t much notice.

Again, I have not worked out what the appropriate balance points would be, that’s the job for a skilled economist, but I think that in principle you could set a fee that would be enough to discourage high volume trading, while not being a burden on standard trading.

I do agree though that it would be difficult to come up with a good way to tax “total assets” efficiently.

Ohoni.6057:

wall of text

Just some general feedback. I usually dont have a problem with a bit of reading, if it is substantial, but your way of quoting without names of the OPs generally makes me ignore it.

Just some general feedback. I usually dont have a problem with a bit of reading, if it is substantial, but your way of quoting without names of the OPs generally makes me ignore it.

Just some general feedback, whatever.

Oh look it’s the exact same people using the exact same arguments as in every other “nerf da TP!” thread.

1. “MUH BALANCE!!!”: If you are going to complain about disparity and ask for balance, then you need to outline exactly what the disparity is, give evidence, figures and facts. Then go on to explain how this is harming the games economy and playerbase. You also need to present evidence as to why two systems with totally different underlying core mechanics need to be “balanced”.

Funnily enough I asked for the above from these same posters in the very last “hurr TP QQ” thread. Amazingly enough none of them managed to give an answer with a shred of evidence. What a surprise.

2. “I CAN’T AFFORD STUFFZ!”: Well it has been pointed out repeatedly that you can in fact make a rather large amount of gold from pve. More than enough to buy all the “stuffz” you want. If you don’t want to do that, tough.

3. “GO PLAY ANOTHER GAME!”: lol. Perhaps take your own advice and go and find a game with no market?

John Smith.4610:

There are about 17 reasons I cannot answer that question.

Do those include the CEO of ANet? :P

JCROY.5730:

John Smith.4610:

There are about 17 reasons I cannot answer that question.

Do those include the CEO of ANet? :P

I dont even think that Arena Net itself has a CEO.

Ohoni.6057:

Just some general feedback. I usually dont have a problem with a bit of reading, if it is substantial, but your way of quoting without names of the OPs generally makes me ignore it.

Just some general feedback, whatever.

OK, talk to my mount then. You can quote it any way you want.

This thread shows exactly why the tp forums should have been closed instead of the WvW matchups, a toxic bunch of “players” with all the time in the world on their hands. Of course this can’t happen because it’s the baby of the “economist”.

sirflamesword.3896:

This thread shows exactly why the tp forums should have been closed instead of the WvW matchups, a toxic bunch of “players” with all the time in the world on their hands. Of course this can’t happen because it’s the baby of the “economist”.

If you feel strongly about this one, why dont you open a new topic and ask for the BLTC Forum to be closed?

The majority of people who posted a toxic comment in this topic, also had multiple constructive ones, except you.

I would also argue that the economy itself is the “baby” of the Economist, not this Forum.

Wanze.8410:

Ohoni.6057:

wall of text

Just some general feedback. I usually dont have a problem with a bit of reading, if it is substantial, but your way of quoting without names of the OPs generally makes me ignore it.

Ohoni really has a leg up on ya’ll. The majority of their posts are rather constructive. I guess that’s why they get snide replies like the one quoted.

That aside. I take it you do not care for getting a taste of your own medicine. Which is fantastic to know.

Essence Snow.3194:

Wanze.8410:

Ohoni.6057:

wall of text

Just some general feedback. I usually dont have a problem with a bit of reading, if it is substantial, but your way of quoting without names of the OPs generally makes me ignore it.

Ohoni really has a leg up on ya’ll. The majority of their posts are rather constructive. I guess that’s why they get snide replies like the one quoted.

That aside. I take it you do not care for getting a taste of your own medicine. Which is fantastic to know.

My feedback was actually meant positively. Nothing wrong with making 2 walls of text, expressing his opinion and replying to other posts in the same post. It would just be easier to see, in which part he replies to me and not someone else. I dont see the point to leave out the name, if you reply to someone.

He responded with a snide reply.

@Ohoni

I’m starting to understand your motivation a bit more and I’m sorry to say that this can’t happen. Regardless of whether or not it should happen it just won’t. Getting gold through the normal game can be hard for the average player. This is on purpose so that people buy gems to convert to gold and this how Anet makes their money so that the game remains free. So buffing gold drops on normal game activities isn’t really an option. And bring down the ability to make a profit on the TP, as shown throughout this thread, will hurt everyone which will end up hurting the average player more than the guy who already has a lot of gold.

Ohoni.6057:

And the third is just player concentration. If a given activity is much more efficient than others for making gold in PvE, then players feel compelled to migrating to that activity, whether they enjoy it or not. This leads them to burn out more quickly because it turns play into work, but they have to struggle to do other things because they know they will not recieve similar reward for them.

Wanting to avoid this, the devs add DR to certain activities, to encourage players to diversify their experiences, that maybe a given activity is most efficient for a little bit, but after some time they’ll have to do something else or lose that efficiency. The same philosophy applies to the trading post.

ArenaNet does not implement DR to break up groups of players. That is quite honestly the single most ridiculous thing I’ve ever read on these forums. The whole POINT of an MMO is to form groups of players! ArenaNet targets activities that generate too much coin out of thin air. Those happen to frequently have a lot of players doing them because they generate too much coin out of thin air. It has nothing to do with “burn out”.

Reducing the number of transactions would not harm the playerbase. The playerbase is only concerned with having items available when they need them, and having them sell when they put them up. At the end of the day, both of those functions are served by the standard players, the non-flippers, so reducing the number of players on the TP would not reduce either of those functions. The transactions that would be reduced would only be those in the middle, the juggling of the items back and forth between its origin and its end, and those transactions benefit nobody by the flippers.

Reducing the number of transactions will mean three things:
1. The general playerbase will get less gold for the items they sell.
2. The general playerbase will pay more gold for the items they buy.
3. Farming will be significantly nerfed so that the general playerbase will be unable to generate as much income.

The poor would get many times poorer, to the point where they would quit.

That is what happens when you reduce trading volume. You widen the margin so that those with money get better deals and those without money get worse deals.

That is also what happens when your primary inflation fighting device is based on transaction volume.

And whether something creates gold or removes it is irrelevant, what matters is who HAS the gold. If an activity generates gold for a player, then it doesn’t matter whether that gold comes from ANet or another player, what matters is that the player has the gold. You may not agree, but accept that this is the position we are coming from. It is impossible to convince us that you are right if your endpoint is “nothing can be a problem unless it is inflationary.” There are plenty of problems that have nothing to do with inflation.

Who has gold is irrelevant. 100% irrelevant.

If that is where your argument is coming from, it’s no wonder it is so very, very wrong on every single level.

Stop caring about what others have and enjoy what you have.

Essence Snow.3194:

It would be on the gold collected via the tp. So lets say in a given week you took out 70g, well then you’d be taxed at the normal rate of 15%. If you took out 140g, then you’d taxed at 20%, etc etc. Ofc this is just an example for the sake of providing an example.

Wow .. great idea. So i personally farm a lot Iron, Platin, Lemongrass or other mats, or maybe kill Arctodus in Frostgorge for T6 mats.

So in the 4 weeks of the LA Events i made maybe 8-12g per hour with harvesting iron.

According to your example i’m now an “evil” TP flipper that needs to pay higher taxes, while everyone who just earns raw money from running dungeons can keep all they get.

Essence Snow.3194:

Ohoni really has a leg up on ya’ll. The majority of their posts are rather constructive. I guess that’s why they get snide replies like the one quoted.

If you consider spouting massive hyperbole, asking for nerfs when providing zero real evidence as to why they are justified and telling people to “go play other games” to be rather constructive then perhaps he might have a leg up in your opinion.

Personally I don’t agree.

The tp wouldn’t make people rich, if players didn’t opt to sell to highest buyer. Enabling the buyer to resell for a profit. The, I want my money now and don’t want to wait attitude from sellers is what makes traders rich. That and speculation.

Put the blame where it belongs. On the players, not the trading post.

Walls and walls of txt, nope not gonna read that. I find when someone has to put up pages and pages of something its usually to defend their opinion. If you cant point out why something is wrong in couple of sentences. The rest is just walls of feelings, which is irrelevant. Feelings belong on Phil.

william dj.6953:

The tp wouldn’t make people rich, if players didn’t opt to sell to highest buyer. Enabling the buyer to resell for a profit. The, I want my money now and don’t want to wait attitude from sellers is what makes traders rich. That and speculation.

I “like” it especially if people don’t even look for the prices on things like T6 mats. For example i sold vicious fangs maybe for 43s .. a while later i will sell what i just farmed and see suddenly its down to 37s .. using the “buy more” function i then see that maybe there are 5 at 38s and already 200 at 37s now.

At that moment i always wish i could do the “Homer chokes Bart” thing with them

Wanze.8410:

sirflamesword.3896:

This thread shows exactly why the tp forums should have been closed instead of the WvW matchups, a toxic bunch of “players” with all the time in the world on their hands. Of course this can’t happen because it’s the baby of the “economist”.

If you feel strongly about this one, why dont you open a new topic and ask for the BLTC Forum to be closed?

The majority of people who posted a toxic comment in this topic, also had multiple constructive ones, except you.

I would also argue that the economy itself is the “baby” of the Economist, not this Forum.

I d ask a more democratic CDI in general section about the perception of players about the great economy we have…

But seems any post will be moved in the speculators lair…..and obviously no CDI despite it got quite some votes during the CDI official poll.

LordByron.8369:

Wanze.8410:

sirflamesword.3896:

This thread shows exactly why the tp forums should have been closed instead of the WvW matchups, a toxic bunch of “players” with all the time in the world on their hands. Of course this can’t happen because it’s the baby of the “economist”.

If you feel strongly about this one, why dont you open a new topic and ask for the BLTC Forum to be closed?

The majority of people who posted a toxic comment in this topic, also had multiple constructive ones, except you.

I would also argue that the economy itself is the “baby” of the Economist, not this Forum.

I d ask a more democratic CDI in general section about the perception of players about the great economy we have…

But seems any post will be moved in the speculators lair…..and obviously no CDI despite it got quite some votes during the CDI official poll.

Really? In fact, i asked in general section just about a week ago, if we can expect a CDI concerning the Economy/Crafting/TP and it didnt get moved in the “speculators lair”.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Will-CDI-s-continue-after-Feature-Patch/first

I even got a response from Chris:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Hi,

There will indeed be more CDI’s. We were thinking of slipping the process evolution phase between topics this time as the new format worked out quite well.

The topic we are thinking about discussing is the Trading Post.

Note: Moving forward we will do 2 CDI topics concurrently at maximum.

Chris

LordByron.8369:

Wanze.8410:

sirflamesword.3896:

This thread shows exactly why the tp forums should have been closed instead of the WvW matchups, a toxic bunch of “players” with all the time in the world on their hands. Of course this can’t happen because it’s the baby of the “economist”.

If you feel strongly about this one, why dont you open a new topic and ask for the BLTC Forum to be closed?

The majority of people who posted a toxic comment in this topic, also had multiple constructive ones, except you.

I would also argue that the economy itself is the “baby” of the Economist, not this Forum.

I d ask a more democratic CDI in general section about the perception of players about the great economy we have…

But seems any post will be moved in the speculators lair…..and obviously no CDI despite it got quite some votes during the CDI official poll.

I think John Smith mentioned at some point he wanted to do a CDI. But yes I’m sure it will take place in these forums. If there’s is a lack of participation in the BLTC forums of “other players” it is because they don’t care or don’t see a problem with current state as you do. Apathy is, in a way, consent.

Or maybe…just maybe…some posters band together and jump on anyone who dare post anything other than the highest praise regarding the tp. It’s pretty evident if you look through the threads in this section. It happens every time and has resulted in this section being inhospitable to most I dare say.

Essence Snow.3194:

Or maybe…just maybe…some posters band together and jump on anyone who dare post anything other than the highest praise regarding the tp. It’s pretty evident if you look through the threads in this section. It happens every time and has resulted in this section being inhospitable to most I dare say.

That is just utterly incorrect.
There is a difference between thinking the economy and TP is perfect and that everyone should praise it, and pulling apart the stuff we see in qq/nerf threads like this.

The reality of the situation is that we see the same two or three posters, posting the same utterly nonsensical arguments, nearly verbatim in every single qq/nerf thread that pops up on this subsection of the forums.

They blast out exactly the same hyberbole and “muh feelings” posts time after time again regardless to the fact that people have patiently and frequently pointed out exactly why their arguments are poor over and over again.

What we saw from the exact same two or three people in the last major qq/nerf thread:

“The disparity in potential earnings is too large, it is killing the game and needs balancing because it’s not fair and um, people who play the TP should just go play market simulators! I can’t make enough gold via pve for stuff!”.

How people responded:

“State exactly how large the disparity is, citing evidence, state exactly how that is hurting the economy, with evidence. State why systems with completely different underlying mechanics should be balanced along the exact same lines. Then we can address the evidence presented. Oh and here is actual factual evidence which proves that you can make more than enough gold via pve”.

The response:
“Er I can’t” You personally even stated what was tantamount to “i’m just being contrarian”….

And now, in this latest qq thread? Oh look the same two or three people are saying:

“The disparity in potential earnings is too large, it is killing the game and needs balancing because it’s not fair and um, people who play the TP should just go play market simulators! I can’t make enough gold via pve for stuff!”….

And you are bemoaning the fact people are being inhospitable? Really? You will find that if someone comes on here and expresses concern with the current model, tries to present some actual evidence and listens. People will help and be kind. If the same people jabber out the same old horse muck over and over again, then understandably, people get tired of it rather quickly.

^perfect example of why this section is not very amicable

Evidence has been posted and should not be needed to be reposted in every thread.

Essence Snow.3194:

^perfect example of why this section is not very amicable

Evidence has been posted and should not be needed to be reposted in every thread.

How is it not amicable to provide people with information they have missed?

Essence Snow.3194:

^perfect example of why this section is not very amicable

Evidence has been posted and should not be needed to be reposted in every thread.

No evidence has been posted. Wait you don’t think “but I can only make less than 5g per hour in pve” is evidence do you?

I challenged you in the last major qq thread to present some, you summarily failed to do so, as did everyone else asking for nerfs. Hence the “I’m just being contrarian/contrarian viewpoint” comment you made.

Perhaps you would like me to relist the same questions, perhaps you actually have some real factual evidence now? Maybe you should take the line of Ohoni and simply state we should all go play another game? That’s amicable right?

And yes, pointing out that the same two or three people spam up every qq thread with “won’t somebody think of the children and nerf the rich!” posts is indeed perfectly pointing out exactly why threads like this can be far from amicable.

Wanze.8410:

Essence Snow.3194:

^perfect example of why this section is not very amicable

Evidence has been posted and should not be needed to be reposted in every thread.

How is it not amicable to provide people with information they have missed?

Your smarter than that, I hope, I thought. Can you really not see how that post is less than amicable?

Essence Snow.3194:

Wanze.8410:

Essence Snow.3194:

^perfect example of why this section is not very amicable

Evidence has been posted and should not be needed to be reposted in every thread.

How is it not amicable to provide people with information they have missed?

Your smarter than that, I hope, I thought. Can you really not see how that post is less than amicable?

Its less amicable to you because you are only here to troll us without ever contributing anything substantial.
All you do, is label us in a bad way.

ITT: Economically clueless people giving bad suggestions.

Wanze.8410:

Essence Snow.3194:

Wanze.8410:

Essence Snow.3194:

^perfect example of why this section is not very amicable

Evidence has been posted and should not be needed to be reposted in every thread.

How is it not amicable to provide people with information they have missed?

Your smarter than that, I hope, I thought. Can you really not see how that post is less than amicable?

Its less amicable to you because you are only here to troll us without ever contributing anything substantial.
All you do, is label us in a bad way.

Not everyone just certain ppl that treat others in that same manner. IE don’t dish out what you yourself cannot take. Since there isn’t any moderation against posters dolling it out, I don’t see any reason there should be any when it comes back to them.

PS: I thought you were going to stop responding to me? Might do us both a favor and do what you said.

Essence Snow.3194:

Wanze.8410:

Essence Snow.3194:

Wanze.8410:

Essence Snow.3194:

^perfect example of why this section is not very amicable

Evidence has been posted and should not be needed to be reposted in every thread.

How is it not amicable to provide people with information they have missed?

Your smarter than that, I hope, I thought. Can you really not see how that post is less than amicable?

Its less amicable to you because you are only here to troll us without ever contributing anything substantial.
All you do, is label us in a bad way.

Not everyone just certain ppl that treat others in that same manner. IE don’t dish out what you yourself cannot take. Since there isn’t any moderation against posters dolling it out, I don’t see any reason there should be any when it comes back to them.

Since when arent these forums moderated?

Wanze.8410:

Essence Snow.3194:

Wanze.8410:

Essence Snow.3194:

Wanze.8410:

Essence Snow.3194:

^perfect example of why this section is not very amicable

Evidence has been posted and should not be needed to be reposted in every thread.

How is it not amicable to provide people with information they have missed?

Your smarter than that, I hope, I thought. Can you really not see how that post is less than amicable?

Its less amicable to you because you are only here to troll us without ever contributing anything substantial.
All you do, is label us in a bad way.

Not everyone just certain ppl that treat others in that same manner. IE don’t dish out what you yourself cannot take. Since there isn’t any moderation against posters dolling it out, I don’t see any reason there should be any when it comes back to them.

Since when arent these forums moderated?

Did I say they weren’t at all? No. I noted that one specific aspect was not being moderated against.

I’m going to go ahead and chime in, because….why not? I have an opinion too.

TL;DR: This post highlights what the Trading Post is currently and some of the ideas that have been brought up in this, and previous, threads. It also asks some questions to us, the player-base, as to how effective some of those suggested changes would be.

I fully understand the arguments on both sides of the fence. I’ve read this entire thread….and ALL of the other ones that came before it.

For this thread specifically, the OP thinks the Trading Post fees should be increased by 1% to balance out the gold sinks that were removed with free trait resets and free armor repair instead of reducing the gold faucet that comes from Champion Bags. Since then, the comments in this thread have taken it to the same place all of the other threads go. It’s a discussion as to whether or not players should be able to profit using the Trading Post.

Let’s look at the Trading Post for what it is intended to be. My opinion is that it was created to do three things:

• Give players that find loot in the world a place to sell their goods quickly and easily, for a price they deem worthy, if that loot is unwanted and do so in a secure manner.
• Give players that want to buy goods they don’t currently have a place they can buy them, for a price they deem worthy, quickly and easily and do so in a secure manner.
• To be a gold sink

Does the Trading Post do those three things? The answer is “yes….quite effectively” to all three. Keep in mind, it does all of those things without injecting any money into the economy. It merely moves money between players while also removing 15% of every transaction.

There are two points of view beyond this. The first point of view stems from players that don’t want to, or are not capable of, playing the Trading Post in order to increase the amount of gold they have. The other comes from players that do use the Trading Post to increase the amount of gold they have, or from players that do not see anything wrong with the Trading Post in its current form.

Many players that share the first point of view would like to see a change made to the Trading Post that limits the amount of gold another player acquire using the Trading Post to be more in line with what can be acquired through “farming”. Several ideas have cropped up along this line and are as follows:

• Tax the “rich”: Players that make over a certain amount of money using the Trading Post should be taxed a higher percentage than “normal” players. How would this actually work? How much is “too much”? As the game goes on, would this idea actually end up affecting everyone, thereby making the Trading Post unusable due to the taxes for using it?
• Bind on Purchase: Any item purchased from the Trading Post is immediately Account Bound and cannot be resold. This idea was originally suggested to combat “flipping”. While it would certainly do that, it would NOT remove the ability of savvy players to profit using the Trading Post. The programming complications that would arise from this idea would be a nightmare as well. Imagine two of every item in the game….a trade-able one and an Account Bound one. Would the two items be able to stack together? What would happen to crafting? What would happen to the Mystic Forge?
• Remove the Trading Post: Players that want to buy and sell items now do so through a Vendor. All prices are set by ArenaNet. This idea “looks good on paper” because the prices of goods will never go up. I have a feeling that this idea would greatly affect crafting. The only items that would be worth crafting are the ones that can’t be purchased (i.e. Ascended Items). Crafting would become an enormous gold sink as the items you create to level up have little to no value when sold to a vendor. Many players would avoid crafting all together in hopes of finding the items they need “out in the world”. Would this idea work to equalize how much money a player could make based on their preferred play-style, or would there be a new way to make money most effectively? Would it be good for the game to remove the single largest gold sink?
• Player to Player Trading: Introduce a secure trading window like in GW1. This idea is brought up many times by players that want to avoid the 15% “tax” from the Trading Post. This idea would be great for that, but it would be more difficult for the players as now they have to find someone selling the item they want, then open up trade with them and begin “haggling”. It also opens up a barter system. Cool idea, but it too has it’s drawbacks. The largest of which will be the likely return of “Spamadan”. The second of which would be the increase in the number of scams that happen between players. Would this idea reduce, or remove, the ability of a player to make more money through trading than can be acquired through “normal” play?

Continued…..

Those ideas are the ones that I see suggested most often, but is not an “all inclusive” list of ideas. Many of the ideas come from an individual perspective and little thought is given to how the suggested change would affect the game as a whole. Everyone plays the game differently and has a different opinion of how the game should be structured. Because of this, players tend to make suggestions that they feel would benefit them.

I’ve thought about ways to change the Trading Post to “make it more fair”, but have yet to come up with any ideas that would actually be so. The problem with trying to make it fair is that there are far too many different opinions of what’s fair. One point of view could be that it’s fair in its current form. It’s obvious that that opinion is not the only one though.

If we, as players of a game we enjoy, really want to introduce change, we need to view how the change we suggest would affect the game as a whole. If we’re only going to look at it from our point of view without taking into consideration the views of others, threads like this are going to continue to be giant arguments.

My personal opinion is that the Trading Post is working as intended. It is a quick, easy, and secure way for players to buy and sell goods and acts as a gold sink with each and every transaction.

Charismatic Harm.9683:

Those ideas are the ones that I see suggested most often, but is not an “all inclusive” list of ideas. Many of the ideas come from an individual perspective and little thought is given to how the suggested change would affect the game as a whole. Everyone plays the game differently and has a different opinion of how the game should be structured. Because of this, players tend to make suggestions that they feel would benefit them.

I’ve thought about ways to change the Trading Post to “make it more fair”, but have yet to come up with any ideas that would actually be so. The problem with trying to make it fair is that there are far too many different opinions of what’s fair. One point of view could be that it’s fair in its current form. It’s obvious that that opinion is not the only one though.

If we, as players of a game we enjoy, really want to introduce change, we need to view how the change we suggest would affect the game as a whole. If we’re only going to look at it from our point of view without taking into consideration the views of others, threads like this are going to continue to be giant arguments.

My personal opinion is that the Trading Post is working as intended. It is a quick, easy, and secure way for players to buy and sell goods and acts as a gold sink with each and every transaction.

Nice summary, +1.

+1

/+15 chars too

I’ll leave this here because obviously it is needed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_inequality

Essence Snow.3194:

I’ll leave this here because obviously it is needed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_inequality

We know what economic inequality is. We are aware that there is a huge gap between the wealthiest players who play the TP and the average player. But we aren’t cartoon scrouge mcducks who go swimming in their money and get kicks out of watching the average player struggle to pay for what he needs as we bleed their money dry from their pockets. Every time someone comes into this forum to ask advice on how to make money, the same people you are insulting are giving advice on how to do so intelligently and safely. And no matter how many times you shout these slurs or economic inequality to make yourself feel like you have the moral high ground, you still haven’t provided any valid ways to reduce this gap. So go stand on your mountain of good intentions but stop yelling down at us how we are hurting people when that is all you have suggested.

Essence Snow.3194:

I’ll leave this here because obviously it is needed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_inequality

When your character requires housing, food, and healthcare or else it will permanently die, you can raise economic inequality as a legitimate concern in a video game.

Schizo.1375:

Essence Snow.3194:

I’ll leave this here because obviously it is needed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_inequality

We know what economic inequality is. We are aware that there is a huge gap between the wealthiest players who play the TP and the average player. But we aren’t cartoon scrouge mcducks who go swimming in their money and get kicks out of watching the average player struggle to pay for what he needs as we bleed their money dry from their pockets. Every time someone comes into this forum to ask advice on how to make money, the same people you are insulting are giving advice on how to do so intelligently and safely. And no matter how many times you shout these slurs or economic inequality to make yourself feel like you have the moral high ground, you still haven’t provided any valid ways to reduce this gap. So go stand on your mountain of good intentions but stop yelling down at us how we are hurting people when that is all you have suggested.

Here’s the difference: This is a game, and wealth inequality has very few of the negative externalities of wealth inequality in the real world. It’s not like players with lots of gold can lobby John Smith to get him to alter fees. It’s not like rich players can monopolize markets in the long run (I think). It’s not like wealth players can regulate out the competition.

I would argue that the existence of super-rich players has a slight inflationary effect on the highest-priced luxury items (e.g. permanent hair contracts, etc.). But besides that, they don’t really have that much of an impact on everyone else. Real world wealth, on the other hand, is a completely different story, at least in the crony capitalist world we inhabit.

Bunda.2691:

Schizo.1375:

Essence Snow.3194:

I’ll leave this here because obviously it is needed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_inequality

We know what economic inequality is. We are aware that there is a huge gap between the wealthiest players who play the TP and the average player. But we aren’t cartoon scrouge mcducks who go swimming in their money and get kicks out of watching the average player struggle to pay for what he needs as we bleed their money dry from their pockets. Every time someone comes into this forum to ask advice on how to make money, the same people you are insulting are giving advice on how to do so intelligently and safely. And no matter how many times you shout these slurs or economic inequality to make yourself feel like you have the moral high ground, you still haven’t provided any valid ways to reduce this gap. So go stand on your mountain of good intentions but stop yelling down at us how we are hurting people when that is all you have suggested.

Here’s the difference: This is a game, and wealth inequality has very few of the negative externalities of wealth inequality in the real world. It’s not like players with lots of gold can lobby John Smith to get him to alter fees. It’s not like rich players can monopolize markets in the long run (I think). It’s not like wealth players can regulate out the competition.

I would argue that the existence of super-rich players has a slight inflationary effect on the highest-priced luxury items (e.g. permanant hair contracts, etc.). But besides that, they don’t really have that much of an impact on everyone else. Real world wealth, on the other hand, is a completely different story.

That’s my point. We are in agreement.