Guild Wars 2

Aidan Savage.2078:

Quite frankly, the only way to siphon money from “rich” players so their wealth is in line with other players is to take it from them. That is the only solution to the perceived problem. Any other “solution” is going to impact the very players you’re attempting to benefit.

So then we ignore siphoning money and go with my freaking suggestion.

Here’s the biggest problem I’m seeing right now: We tell you that money making is out of whack, because people who put in equivalent work and effort into the game make less than those who put equivalent work and effort into the TP in certain instances. So the suggestion is to “nerf” the TP and bring TP earnings in line with the rest of the game.

You say “No, that’s unfair” (ignoring that it’s already unfair that equivalent effort is not being equivalently rewarded)

We say “Fine, then let’s bring the rest of the game on par with how much TP flippers make”

You say “No, that will cause rampant inflation”

So if fairness is important, but inflation needs to be avoided, it is as simple as adding everything currently available in game, sans gemstore items, to every type of currency merchant: karma, laurel, fractal, badge, token, whatever else.

This has the potential to completely devalue gold, however, if these items are made tradeable. So the easy fix is to account bind those purchases. All this does is give people more options and make things more fair. And we’ve already determined that fairness is important.

Ugh, if this keeps up, I’m gonna have to defer to Schizo or something, because I have just about lost my patience. You guys say to “suggest a solution that doesn’t hurt any players”, but when I do just that, everybody but him ignores it.

Aidan Savage.2078:

~~~snip~~~

Actually, there is a problem, but it’s not with the game or mechanics of the Trading Post. The problem is with players who feel they deserve everything for nothing.

Granted, having a sense of Entitlement isn’t good or bad in general. It’s human nature to want things. It gets bad when they try to base arguments for balance using this as an excuse.

Examples of invalid arguments:

-Bob just got Dusk as a drop in WvW. Everyone should now get a Dusk because that would be fair.
-Annie sold her Jetpack for 500 Gold, but I sold it for only 300 Gold two weeks ago. It’s only fair Anet gives me 200 Gold to make up the difference.
-Colin invested in 100 stacks of Silk at a price of 10 Copper per, and sold it for 2 Silver per. All players should now get XX,XXX Gold because Colin made that much.
-John completed the Clocktower JP for the Exotic chest at the end. It’s only fair that all players get credit too.
-Anet should develop a system that’s focused on common ownership, and eliminate the need for money and markets.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Aidan Savage.2078:

~~~snip~~~

Actually, there is a problem, but it’s not with the game or mechanics of the Trading Post. The problem is with players who feel they deserve everything for nothing.

Granted, having a sense of Entitlement isn’t good or bad in general. It’s human nature to want things. It gets bad when they try to base arguments for balance using this as an excuse.

If they want everything for nothing, then they should play the TP like the very people they dislike
More seriously, if everything was to be a no-risk same-reward “system,” you essentially destroy the fun of the game. This isnt kindergarten where everyone gets a trophy for playing a game. This is the Real World (comparatively, at least) where you have the grunts who supply resources, the “smert peepulz” that make them into the intermediate and final products, the “customers” who think they’re right, and finally, you have the people who do all of the previous on a “corporate” scale and make a lot of money out of it.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

The problem is with players who feel they deserve everything for nothing.

Nobody is saying this though.

Wanting to be rewarded for equivalent effort when effort is the bar being set for getting rewards is not wanting everything for nothing.

If fairness is important, and effort is important, then equivalent effort has to be equivalently rewarded. If that doesn’t happen, then fairness and effort are meaningless.

My thoughts on equivalent effort for equivalent reward. If you can show that doing speed runs of dungeons or champ trains or any other mindless activities for getting gold in PvE is equal to the amount of effort that is used to determine which sigils I should buy for the new patch to make a profit, then we can talk. Also you aren’t always rewarded in the TP, sometimes you are penalized, severely.

Sola.7250:

Save silver, lose gold!

No repair cost + less loot for those who win = reward for failure!!

It’s a bad sign when a game starts to reward failure.

I wouldn’t call champ farming “winning.”

Gene Archer.8560:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

The problem is with players who feel they deserve everything for nothing.

Nobody is saying this though.

Wanting to be rewarded for equivalent effort when effort is the bar being set for getting rewards is not wanting everything for nothing.

If fairness is important, and effort is important, then equivalent effort has to be equivalently rewarded. If that doesn’t happen, then fairness and effort are meaningless.

But this is what you want. You want to make 100 Gold for the same efforts as I did. So then I’ll explain that all I did was sit on my rear for 5 minutes, clicked a few buttons, and smiled. Basically, my efforts amounts to “nothing”, and you feel you deserve to get the same as I?

But I think the reason why all your arguments are fundamentally flawed, is because you think making profit on the TP is a “reward”. Doing a Jumping Puzzle for the end chest is a reward. Claiming Stone Mist and getting WXP and Dragonite is a reward. You complete tasks to get something back from the game.

Being smart and knowing what to buy and sell on a market is business. The game doesn’t reward you for playing the TP. The individual player controls how much money they can make or lose. It’s not like Evon gives me Karma and XP each time I make a sale.

Aidan Savage.2078:

More seriously, if everything was to be a no-risk same-reward “system,” you essentially destroy the fun of the game.

Explain. How is the fun destroyed? What’s fun about copying the real world that people are playing a video game to try and escape from in their off time?

What is fun about copying the very things that people want to get away from?

Schizo.1375:

My thoughts on equivalent effort for equivalent reward. If you can show that doing speed runs of dungeons or champ trains or any other mindless activities for being gold in PvE is equal the the amount of effort that is used to determine which sigils I should buy for the new patch, then we can talk.

This was already done by Smooth. He said that the effort he put in was the result of some thinking, a few mouse clicks, and number pressing

I imagine it was the same for you.

So there’s your bar by which to measure effort for everyone. Did they do those things. If yes, then equivalence has been achieved.

If you want to then say that you did extra work by doing research outside the game, I will note that people aside from flippers also do research outside of the game. Which puts us back at square one and equivalence.

Schizo.1375:

Also you aren’t always rewarded in the TP, sometimes you are penalized.

You aren’t always rewarded in dungeons runs or the like, either. Sometimes you are penalized.

william dj.6953:

Gene Archer.8560 " We tell you that money making is out of whack, because people who put in equivalent work and effort into the game make less than those who put equivalent work and effort into the TP in certain instances."

True, I love exploring the open world but people in Fractals earn more gold than I do within the same amount of time.

They have no proof as I said there are a lot of contradictions in what they said. They want us to believe:

1. Playing the TP is relatively risk-free, doesn’t take much time, and yet yields lots and lots of free gold.
2. There are lots and lots of poor and desperate people in the game who can’t afford to buy basic items

My question is, why don’t the poor people in the game just play the TP whenever they run low on gold then? Nobody could answer that.

My conclusion: There are not that many poor people in the game. Most of the people who complain here are complaining about the price of luxury items like having multiple legendaries, instead of basic items.

Also that the TP is not as great a source of free gold, which is supposedly risk-free with almost no time investment, as they try to lead others to believe.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

But this is what you want. You want to make 100 Gold for the same efforts as I did.

Yes, because that’s what it means to be fair. And we’ve established that fairness is important.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

So then I’ll explain that all I did was sit on my rear for 5 minutes, clicked a few buttons, and smiled. Basically, my efforts amounts to “nothing”, and you feel you deserve to get the same as I?

If I did equivalent things to that, or that specifically, then yes. So if the problem is that “nothing” was done, and you have a problem with “nothing” being done and yet being rewarded, then why is it okay for you to do “nothing” and be rewarded, but not okay for me to do “nothing” and be rewarded?

Your argument is that it’s fair for you to do “nothing” and yet get something for doing it, and yet also fair for myself to do “nothing” and -not- get rewarded for it. But that isn’t fair at all.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

But I think the reason why all your arguments are fundamentally flawed, is because you think making profit on the TP is a “reward”.

Because it is. The profit, and the buying power it gives you is your reward for successfully using the TP. Or at the very least, it leads to the reward, which would be being able to buy basically everything the game has to offer, except for outright buying ascended gear, which even then can still have the overwhelming majority of its parts purchased.

Gene Archer.8560:

This was already done by Smooth. He said that the effort he put in was the result of some thinking, a few mouse clicks, and number pressing

I imagine it was the same for you.

I think he was being facetious and reducing his effort to such low proportions for dramatic effect and show the ridiculousness of the argument some people are making that there is little effort in the TP.

But I could be wrong.

As for me, yes, mostly what I do is click a few buttons and look at some charts in the morning, do some buying, do some selling, do some crafting. Little effort in my part and I gain a couple extra gold every day. I’ve become busy lately and haven’t had a lot of time to do some research and thinking about how to expand the amount of gold I make per day. So as of right now I’m sure there are plenty of PvE farmers who make more gold than I do a day so maybe I’m not the best example. However that is not so say little effort was put in. It took me a lot of time and gold (as initial investment and the cost of experimentation) to figure out what items are popular but aren’t be supplied enough, how much can I buy with the amount of gold I currently have, what’s the best way to get these items out of all the sources listed, how many can I sell during the night, is the profit margin large enough to justify doing this, are there better items to focus on, etc. etc.

And despite all of this it still took a long time of this sort of research and experimentation before I even started making money and recouping my initial investments.

Gene Archer.8560:

If you want to then say that you did extra work by doing research outside the game, I will note that people aside from flippers also do research outside of the game. Which puts us back at square one and equivalence.

Just because the same acts are undertaken doesn’t mean it is the same effort. It takes 15-20 minutes to read the wiki on a particular dungeon path, champ train path, or farming path and understand the gist of what the general meta is in the forums for your profession.

If you can tell me what sigils or runes I should buy to make money in 15-20 minutes then we can say it’s equivalent. Or if you can tell me what are some items with a 15%-20% return for weekday to weekend flipping in 15-20 minutes then we can say it’s equivalent.

Gene Archer.8560:

You aren’t always rewarded in dungeons runs or the like, either. Sometimes you are penalized.

The penalties are either a few silver for armor repairs (edit: which I just remembered are gone in a few days), or lost time if someone leaves or you get kicked. But you would never loose out on the 1-2g you get for completing the path. When playing with investments, the bigger your potential reward, the bigger your chances of losing money, and losing A LOT of money. The only time you would lose out a few silver here and there in the TP is by expecting less than a 1g profit.

Gene Archer.8560:

Aidan Savage.2078:

More seriously, if everything was to be a no-risk same-reward “system,” you essentially destroy the fun of the game.

Explain. How is the fun destroyed? What’s fun about copying the real world that people are playing a video game to try and escape from in their off time?

What is fun about copying the very things that people want to get away from?

Because some people find activity A fun, and activity B brainless boring to the point of clinical depression. Because some people find the reverse equally true. They arent asking for their favorite activity to essentially become so dumbed down a corpse can find it fun.

Have you even considered the psychological aspect of it either? Maybe such people accrue mass wealth ingame because it fits the desire to not be “so poor I cant eat McD’s more than once a year” or something like it. And just because you find something as “not fun” gives you zero right to impact that something just because someone else happens to find it fun. If I hated how charr look, does that mean I can dictate to Anet that they should remove charr from the game to appease my wounded ego? Quite a few players would call such requests hilarious and say “then dont make a charr character.”

Quite frankly the basis of this thread’s topic is seeming more and more like it’s rooted in entitlement and jealousy.

That being said, can someone remind me what the problem this thread is attempting to resolve again?

Aidan Savage.2078:

That being said, can someone remind me what the problem this thread is attempting to resolve again?

The current quest is to show that there is a problem with the distribution of wealth.

The biggest issue with this whole argument is that this is all being viewed as “work” or an occupation rather than a game, sport or hobby, which GW2 really is. If you want to use a better example, here’s one for you.

Target Prize: A Ferrari

I enjoy bowling. At one time, I was on five bowling leagues and did quite well. Even though I was good at bowling, the amount of money I made doing this was negligible to the point where if I truly wanted to buy the Ferrari, I would have to save every dollar from tournament placing and league placing until I died, and I’d still never be able to afford that car. There are costs I have to incur while bowling, which further reduces the amount of money I can save up for that car. However, every hour, there is a raffle (RNG) for the car of my dreams. The odds of winning are very slim, so slim in fact that I don’t even think about the possibility of winning. I bowl because I enjoy bowling, and that’s good enough for me.

Jon Doe, meanwhile, enjoys playing tournament-style Texas Hold’em. He does quite well at it. In fact, he is as good at poker as I am at bowling. He puts every bit as much time in playing poker as I do, and his costs are higher in general and more volatile. Still, he’s good at what he does, and he makes more money playing poker than I do bowling. He doesn’t have the “luxury” of the raffle that I have, but he will still wind up with the Ferrari well before I do. And he expends no more time or effort in what he enjoys doing.

Now, having said that, should I be upset with John because he got the car? I don’t think so. I’m still enjoying bowling.

Schizo.1375:

Aidan Savage.2078:

That being said, can someone remind me what the problem this thread is attempting to resolve again?

The current quest is to show that there is a problem with the distribution of wealth.

Wouldnt that be dependent on it being difficult to earn wealth in the first place? Which, if I’m not mistaken, it is not.

Schizo.1375:

I think he was being facetious and reducing his effort to such low proportions for dramatic effect and show the ridiculousness of the argument some people are making that there is little effort in the TP.

But I haven’t argued that the TP requires little effort. I’ve only argued that putting in equivalent effort pays out less.

Schizo.1375:

As for me, yes, mostly what I do is click a few buttons and look at some charts…

(sorry for the cut, just trying to conserve space) And people have put time and work into their builds, learning the path of a jumping puzzle, etc. etc.

Schizo.1375:

And despite all of this it still took a long time of this sort of research and experimentation before I even started making money and recouping my initial investments.

And it can take a long time for builds and etc. to pay off. It definitely takes a long time for events to pay off considering the prices of things (thus again, my suggestion to avoid inflation and all that jazz).

Schizo.1375:

Just because the same acts are undertaken doesn’t mean it is the same effort.

Yes it does, though. Effort is just a serious attempt at doing something. So if you say “Effort needs to be applied”, then what you’re looking at is “Did they put in a serious attempt at their goal?”

Schizo.1375:

The penalties are either a few silver for armor repairs, or lost time if someone leaves or you get kicked. But you would never loose out on the 1-2g you get for completing the path.

This assumes you complete the path. If you only have so much time to play, and the dungeon fails and never completes for that 1-2g before you run out of time, then your penalization is that you did not make that 1-2g. You have lost out on your reward/profit due to failure.

TChalla.7146:

Now, having said that, should I be upset with John because he got the car? I don’t think so. I’m still enjoying bowling.

No more than I can be upset with someone in upper management at Microsoft for making more money than I do while flipping burgers at some grease-joint. No more than people running dungeons for money can be upset at TP players making more money.

Why should equivilent effort result in equivilent results? Why should different money making strategies results be equal?

The Meat Wagon.7194:

Why should equivilent effort result in equivilent results? Why should different money making strategies results be equal?

I agree… which led to me smiling a lot when people flipped the hell out that they couldn’t just buy Ascended gear when it first came out .

Aidan Savage.2078:

Have you even considered the psychological aspect of it either? Maybe such people accrue mass wealth ingame because it fits the desire to not be “so poor I cant eat McD’s more than once a year” or something like it. And just because you find something as “not fun” gives you zero right to impact that something just because someone else happens to find it fun.

My suggestion doesn’t impact that fun, though. They still can make all the gold they ever want, and be rich in gold. And that gold will even have meaning, still. It’s just that other people can be rich in other currencies, and also have the things they want, just like the people that want gold.

I feel like you keep attributing a different suggestion to me than the one I’m actually putting forward. And It’s really starting to confuse and annoy me.

The Meat Wagon.7194:

Why should equivilent effort result in equivilent results?

Because that’s what fairness is?

@TChalla: There’s only one flaw with your example: This game is built on luxuries. Luxuries are the endgame for GW2.

Gene Archer.8560:

@TChalla: There’s only one flaw with your example: This game is built on luxuries. Luxuries are the endgame for GW2.

Odd… I thought the game was built on having fun. I for one don’t worry about the luxuries, because that’s not my idea of fun. If luxury item acquisition is the only fun someone else receives from the game, then they should do what gets them the rewards the fastest, regardless of the method.

TChalla.7146:

Odd… I thought the game was built on having fun.

And one of the main ways of having fun in this game is getting luxuries.

It’s not the only one, but I’m not saying it’s the only one. I am saying the game is built around luxuries, though, because it is. This is an mmo built around cosmetics, and cosmetics are referred to as luxuries, so this is a game built around luxuries, unlike another MMO that cannot be named, which is built around stat and gear progression and raids.

Gene Archer.8560:

TChalla.7146:

Odd… I thought the game was built on having fun.

And one of the main ways of having fun in this game is getting luxuries.

It’s not the only one, but I’m not saying it’s the only one. I am saying the game is built around luxuries, though, because it is. This is an mmo built around cosmetics, and cosmetics are referred to as luxuries, so this is a game built around luxuries, unlike another MMO that cannot be named, which is built around stat and gear progression and raids.

The luxury items are just one of a many facet around which the game was built. And the cosmetics can all be obtained regardless of the mode of fun you choose. Fun should be the primary driving force of the game play time. The cosmetics are simply a bonus for playing the game. I still do not see why one should complain because someone else gets the bonus faster because they choose a different path of fun. I’m still… having fun.

I think the debate at hand has evolved. It went from arguing about fairness, to being entitled for equal payouts. To sum up the ideas from the complainers:

Equality = Each player should make X-amount of Gold for every Y-amount of minutes they spend in game.

No more RNG, no more variable rewards, no more TP, no more rich or poor class. Anet just deposits coin into your wallet, simply from being online.

We should also build a wall that separates Lion’s Arch from Bloodtide Coast, to prevent the Risen from buying out state-subsidized goods in LA .

Gene Archer.8560:

Yes it does, though. Effort is just a serious attempt at doing something. So if you say “Effort needs to be applied”, then what you’re looking at is “Did they put in a serious attempt at their goal?”

So the student who studied medicine to become an RN should receive the same pay as someone who studied medicine to become a doctor?

Gene Archer.8560:

The Meat Wagon.7194:

Why should equivilent effort result in equivilent results?

Because that’s what fairness is?

No, that is what insanity is when speaking purely about gold/cash rewards.

I keep seeing this “effort” argument wheeled out, it is utter nonsense.

Potential reward is down to more than effort alone, it is down to multiple factors inculding skill, competition, risk, the inherent underlying systems, secondary variables and a whole host of other factors.

A low skilled, badly built player might put just as much “effort” into running dungeons as meta build, speed run groups do. They get less rewards (i’ve done 3-5+ dungeons in the time they’ve done 1) because for all their effort, they are not doing it well. Skill, knowledge and effort rewards more than effort alone.

A person playing a zero risk, zero competition game might put just as much as “effort” into it as someone playing a high risk, high competition game. Amazingly enough it is usually the case and totally right, that the latter has a higher potential reward ceiling. Risk and effort rewards more than effort alone.

A person pvping in hotjoins might be putting as much “effort” into it as someone taking part in a top level cash tourny, who gets the biggest reward again? Competition and effort rewards more than effort alone.

A person using 1g seed capital might put just as much “effort” into their trading as someone using “1000g”, amazingly enough they don’t have the same potential risk, nor upside. Capital, risk and effort rewards more than effort alone.

A person exploring might put just as much effort into it as someone who is dedicated farming. Because the latter is going all out to maximise gold return and the former isn’t, amazingly enough in terms of monetary rewards, the latter gains more. Effort 100% focused on making gold, makes more gold than effort alone.

Those supposedly making massive amounts of gold via the TP are taking part in a zero sum competitive game (pver’s are not), they have a medium to high amount of risk (pvers have low to zero), they lock up large amounts of seed capital (pvers lock up zero), they gain zero secondary bonuses (pvers gain AP, SP, karma, XP, tokens, badges, laurels and the chance for pre drops).

Why don’t pve and the TP give exactly the same reward potential? Because whilst people can put the same amount of “effort” into each, both have completely and utterly different underlying mechanics, risk profiles and the like. Amazingly enough, in this 12 page thread, not one, not one single person, has managed to prove that said potential disparity in rewards is harmful for the game or damaging the economy. They haven’t even managed to give any evidence whatsoever which even points to the size of this supposed earthshattering disparity.

As for luxury items, it has been pointed out, repeatedly, how they can be obtained by non TP players. My first legendary, my first craft skill to 500, my first full set of ascended armor, all came from gold generated via pve, gold generated in a very short time frame.

Schizo.1375:

So the student who studied medicine to become an RN should receive the same pay as someone who studied medicine to become a doctor?

Is effort the yardstick for measurement? Did they both put equivalent effort in?

If yes to both, then yes.

Is there a reason they shouldn’t?

Gene Archer.8560:

Schizo.1375:

So the student who studied medicine to become an RN should receive the same pay as someone who studied medicine to become a doctor?

Is effort the yardstick for measurement? Did they both put equivalent effort in?

If yes to both, then yes.

Is there a reason they shouldn’t?

Yes, a doctor and a nurse do not take on the same level of risk.

Fenrir.3609:

No, that is what insanity is when speaking purely about gold/cash rewards.

Agreed.

Now if only someone in this thread had suggested something that would allow rewards to be reached through effort without relying on gold/cash, so that crazy inflation couldn’t occur but everyone could still get the things they wanted, even if they weren’t good at making gold, but were good at other things, like completing their dailies, or doing dungeons, or doing fractals, or gathering up karma from event chains.

Oh, if only someone had made such a suggestion. But no, such a suggestion must be impossible since nobody has stepped forward and made that suggestion. Clearly it must be lost to the vast reaches of space.

The Meat Wagon.7194:

Yes, a doctor and a nurse do not take on the same level of risk.

But risk isn’t effort, and we’ve established for this argument that effort is the measuring stick. Not risk.

Please stop with the rl stuff. Wage inequality when it comes to rl issues has a far higher impact than anything you’ll ever find in a video game. Income inequality ruins societies, it’s historically proven time and again.

What proof do people actually need? I made 50s just opening heavy bags for about 5 minutes of my time and i only did a stack at buy now prices, i could easily triple that with buy offers and a couple extra minutes of my time. There are plenty of avenues in the market that could earn you 500g in a week, i’ve seen it done. My point is purely that the TP is the best game in town for amassing gold. There are plenty of video and guides that say the same thing, i’ve watched a player friend of mine get 1200ish gold in less than 2 weeks. It’s hardly unheard of.

When CoF was found to be a high earner while skipping most of the fights, it was changed. While many of you think it’s difficult and high risk, i assure you it’s not. Even a moderate flipper can conservatively earn more gold than any other avenue in the game.

william dj.6953:

Dr. vs RN. I think I would pay the one who is doing the cutting and repairing more money.

Fairness = what I deserve=entitlement.

Still waiting on any shred of proof to demonstrate the evils of the tp players. Yet 12 pages later nothing. Says a lot about those complaints.

Fair, adjective:

“A state in which the party of the first part has an advantage that is unknown to the party of the second part.”

That’s how people apply the term, regardless of how they say they do.

william dj.6953:

Dr. vs RN. I think I would pay the one who is doing the cutting and repairing more money.

That’s adding in another variable. Effort is the only variable being discussed in regards to the doctor question.

william dj.6953:

Fairness = what I deserve=entitlement.

Entitlement is not inherently bad or wrong.

william dj.6953:

Still waiting on any shred of proof to demonstrate the evils of the tp players. Yet 12 pages later nothing. Says a lot about those complaints.

You’ll never get that proof since I’m not suggesting TP players are evil.

Though if you keep this up, I may start suggesting that you are evil.

Gene Archer.8560:

That’s adding in another variable. Effort is the only variable being discussed in regards to the doctor question.

Perhaps I missed something, why are we limiting the discussion to a single variable in a sea of variables?

william dj.6953:

Dr. vs RN. I think I would pay the one who is doing the cutting and repairing more money.

Fairness = what I deserve=entitlement.

Still waiting on any shred of proof to demonstrate the evils of the tp players. Yet 12 pages later nothing. Says a lot about those complaints.

Proof either way is extraneous unless we can get the mandatory information needed.

It is as inconsequential as asking you to prove it that it does not.

any proof showing tp players hurt the economy. Even one little itty bitty tiny piece of PROOF.

And yes you would be correct. And not the first to suggest that. And I am certain will not be the last.

mtpelion.4562:

Gene Archer.8560:

That’s adding in another variable. Effort is the only variable being discussed in regards to the doctor question.

Perhaps I missed something, why are we limiting the discussion to a single variable in a sea of variables?

Effort is what was latched on to. It’s what the most people said in their defense of keeping the status quo. That they put effort into what they did.

The argument I’ve been making is that equivalent effort should result in equivalent reward. That’s all I’ve been saying. That’s all I’ve said this entire time. That if you do equivalent work and equivalent effort, you should get equivalent reward, because that’s what fairness is.

william dj.6953:

I know big words to Essence. Watermelon and Mississippi. But you know what else I know. I know for a fact all the claims about the tp made by so many are done so without any proof what so ever. If I was going to go online to make claims about how bad something is. The very least I would do is be able to prove it before I start running off at the mouth. But that’s just me. I know some people think their “opinions” are the god’s honest truth. Why? Well, it’s because it’s their opinion so it must be true.

The point is you cannot prove that they are not having a negative impact anymore than I can prove that they are because all of the proof (data) is withheld from us. It’s a impossibility on both ends. The redundancy of continually asking for it will not change that.

Is it less redundant than to continue to say it over and over without proof?

Apparently so, depending which side of the fence your on. Which shows the complete ridiculousness of this discussion.

See you say one thing, then turn right around and contradict yourself. Telling me how wrong I am by saying such a thing, when you are doing the exact same thing. Just silly imo

That’ll I can agree with. If we ever get access to some hard data, we’ll be in a much better place to say the least.

And that I will agree with as well. The data would be nice. But is it something we as players are entitled to? I don’t think so.

Gene Archer.8560:

The argument I’ve been making is that equivalent effort should result in equivalent reward. That’s all I’ve been saying. That’s all I’ve said this entire time.

And it has been pointed out why that notion is a bad one. “Effort” is but one factor within a sea of factors which should and does go to impact upon potential reward.

“Effort” and risk rewards more than “effort”.
“Effort” and competition, rewards more than “effort”.
“Effort” and a whole host of other facts and variabes, goes to impact upon potential rewards.

william dj.6953:

any proof showing tp players hurt the economy. Even one little itty bitty tiny piece of PROOF.

And yes you would be correct. And not the first to suggest that. And I am certain will not be the last.

while i cannot provide any telling data, it’s not that “TP barons” hurt the economy, it’s the fact that you can become a TP Baron in the first place. While i’m not saying they do hurt my playtime in anyway, they do, in numbers, impact the market, they would have to, if you look at it logically. I’m going to use legendaries again as an example only since it’s the highest ticket item in the game. Do you honestly believe that there would even be one for sale for 2000 gold (or even 1000g) if there weren’t people with enough earning potential to pay that price in a reasonable amount of time? If you knew you could make yourself what it cost to buy a legendary in in maybe 2-3 weeks of aggressive trading, while other it took months or even years, that you wouldn’t bat an eye over an outright purchase? If i know i can make oodles of money doing something whats that money really worth to me?

If i found an endless Ori node and farmed it @ 4s a second for 24 hours straight, would you consider that an exploit?

I have 0 problems with traders that make it a practice to earn gold moving product around in the TP, i do have a problem with it being as lucrative as it is. It’s basically an unregulated global system that, if even a minor amount of patience can net an interested, invested player a pretty extreme amount of gold, i see that as a problem.

Gene Archer.8560:

Effort is what was latched on to. It’s what the most people said in their defense of keeping the status quo. That they put effort into what they did.

The argument I’ve been making is that equivalent effort should result in equivalent reward. That’s all I’ve been saying. That’s all I’ve said this entire time. That if you do equivalent work and equivalent effort, you should get equivalent reward, because that’s what fairness is.

I understand your position. I disagree with it fundamentally because I don’t believe that using a single metric to determine “fairness” is appropriate though.

That, and measuring effort is pretty much impossible.

This I think is a big part of the disconnect between the “sides” who are arguing here. We can’t even agree on the definition of simple terms, let alone higher level philosophical concepts.

Gene Archer.8560:

The argument I’ve been making is that equivalent effort should result in equivalent reward. That’s all I’ve been saying. That’s all I’ve said this entire time. That if you do equivalent work and equivalent effort, you should get equivalent reward, because that’s what fairness is.

I don’t think anyone is arguing this. What is being argued is that there is no way the usual PvE grinds are nearly the same amount of effort required. I could do jumping puzzles, champ trains, and dungeon runs as a bearbow ranger (I use this an example as it is considered to be the most despised and useless class/build, and I have done this) pressing buttons 1 through 5 with ease and great success. If I were to apply the same amount of effort (not even including skills and/or brains which are most definitely factors) that it takes to to this, I would only be making a few silver in about the same amount of time. In order to make the significant amount of profit that others are complaining about it takes much more effort. And again, PvE is nearly completely safe. Armor repair costs are going out and getting kicked out of a dungeon does not mean you lose that 1-2g since you never gave up that amount before starting, you never had it to begin with. You do not lose money like you can on the TP, worst case scenario you only lose 10-15 minutes of opportunity cost where as on the TP you have a chance of losing both depending on how much profit you are expecting. Could be similar to a getting kicked out of a dungeon near the end, could be 100’s of gold and 6 months of opportunity cost.

munkiman.3068:

Do you honestly believe that there would even be one for sale for 2000 gold (or even 1000g) if there weren’t people with enough earning potential to pay that price in a reasonable amount of time?

I do think so considering the amount of materials that go into crafting it and how much those materials cost. Have you seen the breakdown of one of those things?
http://www.bravevesperia.com/

I thought the issue being discussed here was not about wealth redistribution but the fact that the single most effective gold making method is not gameplay linked (sitting in DR all day or wherever flicking through windows is not gameplay or at the very least not intended).

Two simple questions.
1. Do you honestly see nothing wrong with a player being able to ignore all game-play and still earn large sums of gold? Potentially you can if played correctly with a small initial investment have 10000g without having left your starter city.

2.Do you feel that it is fair that a top player (for arguements sake define as runs lvl50 fractals , rank80 pvp etc good at every aspect of gameplay). I.e the pinnacle of game play and thus theoretically the most rewarded, has to be reduced to farming excessively just to keep up with flippers?

I don’t want equality (this is a game there are good players and bad players and everyone in-between and what you get out of the game will be based on where you fall in that scale) but I do want to prevent you from having all the rewards by doing nothing game wise.

Fenrir.3609:

And it has been pointed out why that notion is a bad one.

Yeah, just bit ago, by you, on this page.

Fenrir.3609:

“Effort” and risk rewards more than “effort”.

Agreed. So now the question is: How do we quantify risk? What is the risk for each activity in the game and how does one decide what is more of a risk than the other.

-snipped the rest cause it’s the same general idea, also the part that didn’t apply to me-

John Smith.4610:

Essence Snow.3194:

That’ll I can agree with. If we ever get access to some hard data, we’ll be in a much better place to say the least.

Please explain to me what your process would be for proving your theories if you had the data.

I would maybe sample how much TP activity an account has over the last 30 days before it goes dark for 30 days or more. Build a table sorting maybe 10,000 ‘dark’ accounts and see if there are any trends or clumps in level of final month market activity.

It could show if active TP participants are abruptly quitting, or it there is a period of disuse and possibly frustration with the TP before they quit the game entirely.

John Smith.4610:

Essence Snow.3194:

That’ll I can agree with. If we ever get access to some hard data, we’ll be in a much better place to say the least.

Please explain to me what your process would be for proving your theories if you had the data.

Start by seeing if there was a wealth gap, how large if present, and if it was growing. Then I could go from there.