Guild Wars 2

eithinan.9841:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

If Anet allows way too profitable farms to exist, the value of the currency will drop. Take a look at D3, and how poor their economy was. Money was too abundant, and in turn, made it near worthless on the market. So while I can’t make as much money anymore, I can forgive them for stealing my farms.

Do you remember the D2 “Eye of Jordan” ring based economy. lawl

I do remember. It was Stones of Jordan (SoJs), and I made hundreds, if not thousands of dollars selling those on Ebay.

GW2 economy will never break like that, because Anet employs actual people who understand how economies work.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

eithinan.9841:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

If Anet allows way too profitable farms to exist, the value of the currency will drop. Take a look at D3, and how poor their economy was. Money was too abundant, and in turn, made it near worthless on the market. So while I can’t make as much money anymore, I can forgive them for stealing my farms.

Do you remember the D2 “Eye of Jordan” ring based economy. lawl

I do remember. It was Stones of Jordan (SoJs), and I made hundreds, if not thousands of dollars selling those on Ebay.

GW2 economy will never break like that, because Anet employs actual people who understand how economies work.

Maybe you can talk crap about other mmorpg instead of a game which isn’t even mmorpg.

beside you are making fun of a franchise that make a lot of money.

The same reason, it is hard to be over critical of GW2, since I can’t say it is actually doing bad compare to other mmorpg on the market.

Bombsaway.7198:

John:

Let me respectfully call you out on your answer as being well intentioned but IMHO misguided. Without getting into a credentialing match, I think both of us have had our share of economics, analytics and theoretical modeling. I am shall we say amazed by your answer.

I struggle with your answers as if somehow an MMO can be looked at as an economy when there are no actual limitations (you can simply change them on a moment’s notice by whatever delta of change your choose). Hence, the economy is less economic and more of a loyalty tool (a sophisticated CRM if you will).

Indeed, CRM/loyalty is the only purpose of that “economy”.

This is why I find your posts utterly frustrating, because they warp the economics of a real resource constrained system with a game that has no such restrictions. In doing so, you focus on somewhat senseless charts versus gamer expectation, perception and ultimately interest which is a far better measure of if the “economy” is working.

In short, this quest for “efficiency” is meaningless despite its “correlation” to economic theory IF it doesn’t accomplish the goal of loyalty/fun/name it what you will. The only thing the economic model can do (if well marketed) is create a “sense” of fairness.

The perception of inflation is more important than the reality in an MMO. The segmentation of that perception of inflation if it leads to a frustration or a “I can’t progress” attitude won’t change because your charts say it is wrong. The net result is the same.

If the goal is to create a sense or perception of fairness, but increasingly there is a trouble or “sense” that the “economy” is “off” even if only to one or more key customer segmentations, the mission is a failure despite pie charts and line graphs.

You keep trying to prove things are not as they seem to the customer. I wish you would quit telling posters to “learn economics”. Trust someone who clearly has, you are chasing the wrong issue. You are using an unfamiliar language to most of your consumers of the game to mask a very simple consumer issue:

To many it simply feels, right or wrong, that the economy is “boxing them out”. “Proof” is not going to replace the need to fix the perception. I dare say the customer and OP is far more “right” than you are. In an MMO, it matters not if you are economically disenfranchised, it only matters if you feel disenfranchised.

In short, I would be very hesitant to jump in and alter the conversation that the OP had. The value is the discussion over whether the “economy” “feels fair or different” rather than overwhelming the poor OP telling him to learn economics which may truly stifle the very conversation as a consumerologist I would suggest ANET would definitely want.

You mean well. I hope you realize I do too with this post.

I think you’re largely right about the perception of the economy as being unfair and out of control, but I think you’re misdiagnosing the problem. John is correct in that the economy is largely fine; gold is easier to get than it used to be but we’ve had no real inflation shocks on a Stone of Jordan kind of level, despite much wilder fluctuations in the availability of resources. It looks like the worse it got was the first Crown Pavillion, but it feels like things are more stable this year. While I question why silk and charged lodestones seem to get over-utilised in crafting and why T2-4 mats aren’t more widely available, these things are easily fixed and we’ve seen temporary resource drains correct these kinds of problems with great success.

The perception is real, but I think it stems from a rewards problem, not an economy problem, and John is not part of the rewards team. At the moment almost everything that players want drops rarely and unpredictably, from T6 mats, to lodestones, to attractive crafting blueprints, to precursors. The rest drops at a slow trickle, requiring large amounts of repetition of content that’s not particularly challenging or variable. The guiding principle of the rewards system is that players should be able to do what they want, and gold will fill in the gaps, but what actually happens is that just grinding gold and buying everything you want is far more effective, and the TP is not as exciting to buy from as an NPC vendor with predictable pricing is.

TP prices move around, because it is an economy and not an NPC vendor. Saving up for a thing you want becomes far less satisfying if the price is constantly moving because you keep noticing it when it spikes, even though it will come back down again. This is a fine model for some things (having rich players fight over who can drain the most gold out of the economy , as they did for the Lyssa backpiece, does wonders for inflation), but if players have to do it for even simple things, they come to the conclusion that it’s the market that’s making things hard.

laokoko.7403:

The same reason, it is hard to be over critical of GW2, since I can’t say it is actually doing bad compare to other mmorpg on the market.

This.

The economic design and stability of GW2 are way better than most MMO’s in my experience.

I have some pet peeves too, of course. I’m not a fan of how crafting feels more like a path to endgame token redemption then an economic activity, for example. I also feel like there aren’t nearly enough options for characters or players to specialize in being good at one economic activity versus another.

But those are probably more overall game design issues than things that could be solved economically. And taken as a whole the GW2 economy seems to be a lot better designed and is definitely more simple-yet-satisfying than the other MMO’s I’ve played.

And let’s face it, you see basically this same thread on every MMO forum pretty often. To me that says that as obvious as “solutions” might seem intuitively, designing and managing an artificial economy that doesn’t include the same frustrations as the real economy is actually hilariously difficult. I have yet to see one that everyone points to as the gold standard to be imitated. (And I’d actually personally suggest that the interplay between RMT and gold in GW2 is the gold standard to be imitated for that aspect- and frankly getting even that one thing right is pretty darn impressive.)

Merus.9475:

I think you’re largely right about the perception of the economy as being unfair and out of control, but I think you’re misdiagnosing the problem. John is correct in that the economy is largely fine; gold is easier to get than it used to be but we’ve had no real inflation shocks on a Stone of Jordan kind of level, despite much wilder fluctuations in the availability of resources. It looks like the worse it got was the first Crown Pavillion, but it feels like things are more stable this year. While I question why silk and charged lodestones seem to get over-utilised in crafting and why T2-4 mats aren’t more widely available, these things are easily fixed and we’ve seen temporary resource drains correct these kinds of problems with great success.

The perception is real, but I think it stems from a rewards problem, not an economy problem, and John is not part of the rewards team. At the moment almost everything that players want drops rarely and unpredictably, from T6 mats, to lodestones, to attractive crafting blueprints, to precursors. The rest drops at a slow trickle, requiring large amounts of repetition of content that’s not particularly challenging or variable. The guiding principle of the rewards system is that players should be able to do what they want, and gold will fill in the gaps, but what actually happens is that just grinding gold and buying everything you want is far more effective, and the TP is not as exciting to buy from as an NPC vendor with predictable pricing is.

TP prices move around, because it is an economy and not an NPC vendor. Saving up for a thing you want becomes far less satisfying if the price is constantly moving because you keep noticing it when it spikes, even though it will come back down again. This is a fine model for some things (having rich players fight over who can drain the most gold out of the economy , as they did for the Lyssa backpiece, does wonders for inflation), but if players have to do it for even simple things, they come to the conclusion that it’s the market that’s making things hard.

I think john is either on the rewards team or works closely with them, i remember multiple developers talking about having to run reward ideas by john to tell if would break the game.

Hey john, does your role as head of game economics get you involved with rewards? I would assume so since one of the basics of economics is managing goods and services, which in this game is basically rewards.

Silalus.8760:

laokoko.7403:

The same reason, it is hard to be over critical of GW2, since I can’t say it is actually doing bad compare to other mmorpg on the market.

This.

The economic design and stability of GW2 are way better than most MMO’s in my experience.

I have some pet peeves too, of course. I’m not a fan of how crafting feels more like a path to endgame token redemption then an economic activity, for example. I also feel like there aren’t nearly enough options for characters or players to specialize in being good at one economic activity versus another.

But those are probably more overall game design issues than things that could be solved economically. And taken as a whole the GW2 economy seems to be a lot better designed and is definitely more simple-yet-satisfying than the other MMO’s I’ve played.

And let’s face it, you see basically this same thread on every MMO forum pretty often. To me that says that as obvious as “solutions” might seem intuitively, designing and managing an artificial economy that doesn’t include the same frustrations as the real economy is actually hilariously difficult. I have yet to see one that everyone points to as the gold standard to be imitated. (And I’d actually personally suggest that the interplay between RMT and gold in GW2 is the gold standard to be imitated for that aspect- and frankly getting even that one thing right is pretty darn impressive.)

Id say the economic engine, (the TP) is fairly well designed, and the economy isnt that unstable(as far as MMOs go). But i think the game design itself is too based around the gold economy. And doesnt feel too good at a high level. That said many MMO economies kind of suck, but then again their game isnt really revolving around gold as much.

Yeah the whole learn to economics thing seems like a cleverly disguised insult to me.

phys.7689:

I think john is either on the rewards team or works closely with them, i remember multiple developers talking about having to run reward ideas by john to tell if would break the game.

Well let me correct myself: John doesn’t design the rewards systems in-game. He is consulted on the flow of items and clearly provides advice on what things appear to be over supplied.

There is inflation in gw2. Period. If John smith doesn’t agree with this, he’s a bad economist. However, put things in perspective, gw2’s inflation is much better then a lot of other mmo’s out there. It’s actually 1000 000 times better (litteraly), then certain free to play mmo’s. Prices of cash shop items (tradable, like double exp for an hour in a more grindy level mmo, 200 levels, lvl 150 takes 1 month to farm), went from 1 000 000, to 1000 000 000 000 ingame currency. So bad is the inflation there.

Guild wars inflation ranges from 1,2x to 2x (i got way to few data to be sure of it). But based on ecto’s, armor, weapons, t6 mats, precursors, cooking mats etc, i think it average’s out at about 1,5x to 2x inflation. Now John smith may deny that, but this estimation is made by a PLAYER, not a game statistics owning Anet employee.

John Smith.4610:

LordByron.8369:

You are wrong.
There are some reasons why inflation coesn t take in account value of alpacas in France.

For the same reason should not take in account all the stuff that has almost no (real) demand.

While T6, Precursors, lodestones, gems, etc etc etc should be the best indicators.

@Wanze… i won t answer since i don t find most of your comments “useful”.

First off, there is a huge amount of demand for alpacas, they’re pretty awesome.

Short and sweet:
If you think inflation is a major issue in Guild Wars 2, you should do more research on MMO economies and general economics.

Excuse me if this uneducated player just posted how inflation is officially calculated in Italy by Istat (national institute of statistic).

And that calculation is used for balancing salaries.

@Phoebe: in other games luckily you are not forced usually to use the TP but can farm your stuff.
In GW2 farming everything you need is not realistic.
Just like diablo 3 economy, that led to some unpleasant consequences that we have even here even if in a watered down form.

I’m really not seeing the points here. I don’t understand how inflation can be measured without taking into account EVERYTHING. I mean, how can you accurately calculate the spending power of a currency by limiting your search criteria to only the most expensive or in demand items on the market. Seems like gauging the price of groceries by looking at the cost of a luxury sports car.

Phoebe Ascension.8437:

There is inflation in gw2. Period. If John smith doesn’t agree with this, he’s a bad economist. However, put things in perspective, gw2’s inflation is much better then a lot of other mmo’s out there. It’s actually 1000 000 times better (litteraly), then certain free to play mmo’s. Prices of cash shop items (tradable, like double exp for an hour in a more grindy level mmo, 200 levels, lvl 150 takes 1 month to farm), went from 1 000 000, to 1000 000 000 000 ingame currency. So bad is the inflation there.

Guild wars inflation ranges from 1,2x to 2x (i got way to few data to be sure of it). But based on ecto’s, armor, weapons, t6 mats, precursors, cooking mats etc, i think it average’s out at about 1,5x to 2x inflation. Now John smith may deny that, but this estimation is made by a PLAYER, not a game statistics owning Anet employee.

I just relish in the humor of you saying, “If JS doesn’t agree with (me), then he’s a bad economist.” Then you proceed to make sweeping assertions while including condemning vocabulary like “maybe”, “about”, and, my personal favorite, “I got way too few data to be sure(I have no hard evidence to support my claims)”. Then you end with, ‘well, he can deny my assertions, but I’m just a player with hardly the amount of tools he has at his disposal to make a more informed analysis’.

#footinmouth

Also note that they are already aware of the ‘game changers’ coming down the road.
Sure we seen some price swings here and there for certain items. These were ALL high demand items and occurred right before or after HUGE additions/changes to the game. Sure, we had the Living Story farm fest that flooded the market with basic materials. This was immediately followed by Ascended gear crafting which relied, heavily, on those very same materials. Then there was the champ bag shenanigans that flooded the market with a hefty supply of T6 mats for several months right before the wardrobe system drove Legendary demands up rapidly. These price swings are natural as the game evolves and our speculation is trivial with the absence of knowledge of pending future game changes. Imagine if there never was this ebb and flow of materials and gold etc, yet these huge changes were made.

I think all this talk of ‘inflationopomgplznerf’ is primarily a noticing of extreme highs and lows of in-demand items with little context taken into account for what is responsible and why. Impatience will drive this mindset. If you have to have something while the market you’re interested in is fluctuating b/c of recent changes to core aspects of the game, then you can’t disreguard the others also interested in those things and then just chalk it up to ‘inflation has gone crazy’.

You can say there’s been natural inflation since launch, b/c each account started with 0g0s0c. That’s about it though.

John Smith.4610:

Short and sweet:
If you think inflation is a major issue in Guild Wars 2, you should do more research on MMO economies and general economics.

And here is one of the largest problems: do you really think the majority of the GW2 population actually has an interest in economics and would find this fun?

I’d think (and of course I could be wrong) most people in the game want a fun game to play and earn items through playing content (better, shinier items through challenging content), not this random money grind that’s been set up.

Lothirieth.3408:

John Smith.4610:

Short and sweet:
If you think inflation is a major issue in Guild Wars 2, you should do more research on MMO economies and general economics.

And here is one of the largest problems: do you really think the majority of the GW2 population actually has an interest in economics and would find this fun?

I’d think (and of course I could be wrong) most people in the game want a fun game to play and earn items through playing content (better, shinier items through challenging content), not this random money grind that’s been set up.

I do think that sometimes looking at things on a macro and systemic level, makes you miss the general reality. Mathematically, every reward can be broken down to money, or value equivalents, then they can more easily balance them. Also specific items uses should balance their creation, etc.

But at the end of the day, that can lead to some well regulated but unsatisfying systems.

LordByron.8369:

John Smith.4610:

LordByron.8369:

You are wrong.
There are some reasons why inflation coesn t take in account value of alpacas in France.

For the same reason should not take in account all the stuff that has almost no (real) demand.

While T6, Precursors, lodestones, gems, etc etc etc should be the best indicators.

@Wanze… i won t answer since i don t find most of your comments “useful”.

First off, there is a huge amount of demand for alpacas, they’re pretty awesome.

Short and sweet:
If you think inflation is a major issue in Guild Wars 2, you should do more research on MMO economies and general economics.

Excuse me if this uneducated player just posted how inflation is officially calculated in Italy by Istat (national institute of statistic).

And that calculation is used for balancing salaries.

@Phoebe: in other games luckily you are not forced usually to use the TP but can farm your stuff.
In GW2 farming everything you need is not realistic.
Just like diablo 3 economy, that led to some unpleasant consequences that we have even here even if in a watered down form.

Italy doesnt calculate its Consumer Price Index based on the price of t6 mats, lodestones or precursors either.
http://www3.istat.it/salastampa/comunicati/in_calendario/precon/20100223_00/consumer_price_jan_2010.pdf

And how is farming everything you need in guild wars 2 not realistic?
Its the stuff you want that is not realistically farmed in game, but thats a different matter.

Lothirieth.3408:

John Smith.4610:

Short and sweet:
If you think inflation is a major issue in Guild Wars 2, you should do more research on MMO economies and general economics.

And here is one of the largest problems: do you really think the majority of the GW2 population actually has an interest in economics and would find this fun?

I’d think (and of course I could be wrong) most people in the game want a fun game to play and earn items through playing content (better, shinier items through challenging content), not this random money grind that’s been set up.

Unfortunately, you are really spot on what this game revolves around and John Smith does his job in light of this. I guess; from ANet’s point of view, he probably does a really good job. The whole TP system with the RNG in the game encourages you to farm gold or if you find it really tedious just grab your credit card and buy some gems then convert them to ingame gold. Inflation is rather good for this system actually since those who play very casually and can’t keep up with the prices will be more inclined to buy gems. Therefore, you won’t see any drastical changes from ANet regarding the current state of the economy of this game.

Dear John Smith

I don’t have to be an economist to see this. Anyone with a little thinking and a little playtime in this game can see through this system. I also don’t think that an ANet employee should answer posts in a manner you usually do. Since you often recommend us that we should learn economics, I’d like to give you a personal advice: Maybe you should learn community realitions to avoid insulting customers.

Seraphina.6859:

I don’t have to be an economist to see this. Anyone with a little thinking and a little playtime in this game can see through this system. I also don’t think that an ANet employee should answer posts in a manner you usually do. Since you often recommend us that we should learn economics, I’d like to give you a personal advice: Maybe you should learn community realitions to avoid insulting customers.

I appreciate JS’s honesty and directness. Most of the complaints come from ignorance, along the lines of “fix this bug right now” and “I could make better armor models in an afternoon with an etch-a-sketch” kind of thing. The reality is that these things are much more complicated than people on the outside of the industry realize. If it were a matter of merely pushing a few buttons or tweaking some numbers, bug fixes and game changes would happen in hours or days, not weeks and months.

The devs should be more direct with their answers, and say something like “we’ll work on it when we have time,” or “maybe in the future but it’s not even being discussed right now.” Of course, this kind of thing is bad for business, most people don’t want honesty, they want to be told what they already think.

I honestly don’t see why John has to act civil if people do nothing but berate the dude and tell him they can do his job better/ understand his field of study/ job better than he does. Sometimes people need to be slapped a little, you’re not just a customer you’re a person and if you can’t act like a decent one in the first place you don’t deserve to be treated like one. IMHO anyway.

Most of the stuff I see on here is just “You suck this sucks everything sucks because I can’t make a fortune MY way” Etc.

Ve Salu Sigtyr.4807:

Most of the stuff I see on here is just “You suck this sucks everything sucks because I can’t make a fortune MY way” Etc.

You just summed up the entertaining half of the BLTC forum.
The other half is very informative and helpful, but less animated and humorous.

mtpelion.4562:

Ve Salu Sigtyr.4807:

Most of the stuff I see on here is just “You suck this sucks everything sucks because I can’t make a fortune MY way” Etc.

You just summed up the entertaining half of the BLTC forum.
The other half is very informative and helpful, but less animated and humorous.

And JS is the rare individual who can be both at the same time.

A TOAST! TO JS! FOR BRAINTERTAINING US!? But no seriously mad props to the guy on the keyboard cause I’d be like yeah well see whats what you little expletive deleted! Yes, yesssss Giant Eyes shall be the new currency of the realm mwahahahahaha.

I am sorry to say this but “Short and sweet: If you think inflation is a major issue in Guild Wars 2, you should do more research on MMO economies and general economics.” is more like an insult rather than an actual attempt to explain his opinion on the matter (and this is not his first post in this manner). This sentence is on the level of the arguments of children. If this is the kind of answer and manner one can expect from an ANet employee than why do forum posters are reminded every time by ANet that we should give constructive feedback and be respectful. There is even a posting guideline for us. I can adhere to the guideline but in exchange I expect the same treatment from ANet towards me. Without mutual respect there cannot be good communication between the company and its customers.

“You are wrong.
There are some reasons why inflation coesn t take in account value of alpacas in France.
For the same reason should not take in account all the stuff that has almost no (real) demand.
While T6, Precursors, lodestones, gems, etc etc etc should be the best indicators.
@Wanze… i won t answer since i don t find most of your comments “useful”.”

Is what that was in a response to. I think that was the appropriate use of force for that particular exchange.

I don’t see how using half of a quote, out of context proves that he need to learn to treat his “customers” better. I don’t think were JS’ customers, I highly doubt this is all he does in life. I don’t think I’ve ever had a bad interaction with anyone at ANET and I’ve had plenty to get heated over. I’ve always been treated well.
“this sentence is on the level of the arguments of children” Based on the post he was answering to, he is probably talking to a child.

So tell me what part of that was constructive feedback? What part of “you’re wrong” is respectful? Taking only expensive items into account when calculating inflation isn’t constructive its asinine, telling someone you won’t even respond to their posts because you don’t find them “useful” or whatever isn’t respectful, its childish.

You’re welcome to your opinion, but I grew up just before the “everyone’s a special snowflake” era of parenting, and sometimes you just have to find a tactful way to say “you don’t have any idea what you’re talking about.” JS will explain and has explained concepts related to the TP and economy, but there are individuals such as Byron who constantly ignore these explanations and make the same accusations over and over because it gets more attention than saying “oh, you’re right, I didn’t think of that.”

If I were in JS’s place, I would have been fired or at least forbidden to so much as look at the forums months ago.

Yeah I endured through the Era of Givers Inscriptions for everyone! You’re a special snowflake, you’re a special snowflake! Everyone here is a special snowflake!!! But anyway, back on the “topic”.

“Inflation” I saw ectos at ^40s per today, anyone know whats up with that? Did I miss something or are people just stocking up on stuff waiting for the mysteries of season 2?

Seraphina.6859:

I am sorry to say this but “Short and sweet: If you think inflation is a major issue in Guild Wars 2, you should do more research on MMO economies and general economics.” is more like an insult rather than an actual attempt to explain his opinion on the matter (and this is not his first post in this manner). This sentence is on the level of the arguments of children. If this is the kind answer and manner one can expect from an ANet employee than why do forum posters are reminded every time by ANet that we should give constructive feedback and be respectful. There is even a posting guideline for us. I can adhere to the guideline but in exchange I expect the same treatment from ANet towards me. Without mutual respect there cannot be good communication between the company and its customers.

Some posters in these forums have lost their “mutual respect” privileges for being intentionally uninformed despite receiving direct answers that would have corrected their uninformed status.

When you see the same people saying the same wrong things all the time, you no longer respect them and your posts reflect that.

Just because I disagree with John, make no mistake, John is no dummy. Far from it.

Let me summarize what I have gathered his position more or less is. If wrong, please do correct.

What his theme seems to be is that overtime there has been the same relative ability to purchase items given so many units of “labor” or “currency”. Sure prices may inflate, but on whole, the access and availability of these digital goods is fairly consistent and there is the proper amount of scarcity so that the model shows the desired flow and availability of goods (as well as pricing being “within some type of appropriate range”). (Again, I note the danger of trying to summarize someone else’s thoughts).

As they would say in agriculture, the water is flowing and the tiles are as full as we want them to be.

He makes a good point, but is it the right point to make? And what is the right approach to tackle that point, if it is the right one to make?

My point is quite a bit different and represents more of an approach difference. I would argue that the reality of the availability of goods/access to rewards over a period of time is much less important than the perception players have at various points in time. MMOs are fundamentally about building loyalty so that even when a game mode is slower to develop (or between Seasons etc), you stay. And there are points in time that matter more. For example, when a new set of gear comes out, prior to a Season, when you just turn 80, etc.

As a result, I would spend far more time trying to understand the sentiment of posters (especially new or casual players who are developing stickiness to the game) like the OP. In short, rather than defending the objective truth, I would focus on understanding the perception misses and understand that a macro objective truth can impact individual gamers or groups of gamers quite differently.

Now, I am 100% happy to learn that perhaps I am off, old school, wrong relative to the data, etc. etc. etc. My real issue is far less the difference in approaching data and the role of an online economy versus how ANET might want to think about approaching the issue on the boards.

My board approach would be empathy first, understanding second and explaining/defending third.

My concern is that John’s posts often unintentionally appear more defensive than engaging and the unintended result is that very important conversation stops because the economist has spoken (often in a language that is difficult for the average player to then feel comfortable speaking up after).

Often, when you are the smartest guy in the room (or on a board) it is far more important to listen and engage than talk/defend. Otherwise, you effectively cut off the very conversation I would think you want to hear and understand (and a bit of hyperbole about 10k legendaries really isn’t the issue).

The OP is not “wrong” really. Instead, it should be viewed as “the economy is not working for me (and likely others like me”. Isn’t that exactly the dialog we should have?

mtpelion.4562:

Seraphina.6859:

I am sorry to say this but “Short and sweet: If you think inflation is a major issue in Guild Wars 2, you should do more research on MMO economies and general economics.” is more like an insult rather than an actual attempt to explain his opinion on the matter (and this is not his first post in this manner). This sentence is on the level of the arguments of children. If this is the kind answer and manner one can expect from an ANet employee than why do forum posters are reminded every time by ANet that we should give constructive feedback and be respectful. There is even a posting guideline for us. I can adhere to the guideline but in exchange I expect the same treatment from ANet towards me. Without mutual respect there cannot be good communication between the company and its customers.

Some posters in these forums have lost their “mutual respect” privileges for being intentionally uninformed despite receiving direct answers that would have corrected their uninformed status.

When you see the same people saying the same wrong things all the time, you no longer respect them and your posts reflect that.

As long as the posters are not violating the coc or tos here, I would hope the company would hold their reps to a higher standard.

It is common practice in most all industry to expect better of it’s representatives, It is why we constantly see companies apologizing for employee acts/comments even though most of us think them in the right.

Edit* Again, great post Bombsaway +1

@ Seraphina, it’s why I mentioned that if he thinks there’s no inflation, he’s probably a bad econimist. I didn’t mean to say he is one. I’m pretty sure he knows there’s inflation, (and thus isn’t a bad economist). But hi sentence (last post) is so double-edged, that it can range from ‘gw2 has no inflation’, to ‘gw2 has severe inflation but still a bit behind worst mmo’s. Hence my double-edged answer.

@ Tman, if you read my post more carefully I actually agree for a large part with John smith. free to play mmo has 1000 000x inflation, gw2 about 2×. That’s basically saying John smith is correct. Hence I hoped people would understand the ‘bad economist’ part was just more pilosophical (just like his last post), then anything else. He never truly stated there’s NO INFLATION, so my ‘If sentence’, doesn’t come true, and the accusation is mooth. But i hoped others would be smarter and see this. To bad i gotta rectify it in a reply post. Editing is not an option either, since you quoted me already. So to remove all doubt, it wasn’t a personal attack on JS, more like hint. (that we hope, all his crazy deep economy studies payed off after all, wich i’m pretty sure it did, he’s just holded back to post information by his bosses).

And before you say, ‘why not be more straight’? Because John smith isn’t :p

Phoebe Ascension.8437:

@ Seraphina, it’s why I mentioned that if he thinks there’s no inflation, he’s probably a bad econimist. I didn’t mean to say he is one. I’m pretty sure he knows there’s inflation, (and thus isn’t a bad economist). But hi sentence (last post) is so double-edged, that it can range from ‘gw2 has no inflation’, to ‘gw2 has severe inflation but still a bit behind worst mmo’s. Hence my double-edged answer.

I think the gist of John’s post is that inflation is not a problem in GW2.

The OPs “feeling poorer” now, is a perception issue that nobody can do anything about.

The suggestion that 1g a month after launch was more money than 200g now is nonsensical. There is just much more available to the OP now (much of which was simply not aware of then) and with that knowledge comes the desire for items that cannot be currently obtained.

Some of this is due to a gradual shift from many players from playing the game for fun and entertainment to playing the game for rewards…..

I think the gist of John’s post is that inflation is not a problem in GW2.

This.

I in no way read John’s post as “there is no inflation”. By definition, the game has experienced inflation. John understands this, and in all likelihood has charts that map where he expects the inflation to be at a given point in the foreseeable future. But, as he said, inflation isn’t a problem. It may become a problem, but inflation is not inherently a bad thing, it is something that can become a problem in certain situations. It could be we are getting close to that situation, but right now everything looks relatively healthy to me.

Phoebe Ascension.8437:

@ Seraphina, it’s why I mentioned that if he thinks there’s no inflation, he’s probably a bad econimist. I didn’t mean to say he is one. I’m pretty sure he knows there’s inflation, (and thus isn’t a bad economist). But hi sentence (last post) is so double-edged, that it can range from ‘gw2 has no inflation’, to ‘gw2 has severe inflation but still a bit behind worst mmo’s. Hence my double-edged answer.

You might want learn to read slowly because JS never said they was no inflation. All he said was that inflation is NOT an issue in guild wars 2 relative to most MMORPG.

First off, there is a huge amount of demand for alpacas, they’re pretty awesome.

Short and sweet:
If you think inflation is a major issue in Guild Wars 2, you should do more research on MMO economies and general economics.

laokoko.7403:

well people are not happy with price increase, I’m not sure if that’s called a problem.

But at the same time, the Anet economist probably are more worried about how much money they make next fiscal period. Unless inflation is actually hurting their profit, they dont’ consider it a problem.

So it depend how you look at it, from a player’s POV, or from their POV.

One of the things you should have known by now, MMORPG players are never really happy about anything. Give them something and they will still complain.

If one day Arenanet made getting everything easy like it was at release players will whine at how there is nothing to work on. If you make things take longer but not harder like ascended crafting, they will complain it takes too much work.

The point being players will never be happy about anything, the most important thing is doing what seems fair or makes sense for the context of the game.

JS has different things to worry about versus the players that are complaining. Players expect things to be handed to them at the same time expect things to not be handed to them.

well people are not happy with price increase, I’m not sure if that’s called a problem.

But at the same time, the Anet economist probably are more worried about how much money they make next fiscal period. Unless inflation is actually hurting their profit, they dont’ consider it a problem. Besides, the gemshop make money from people spending real cash, and inflation help people stay poor so they’ll spend real cash.

So it depend how you look at it, from a player’s POV, or from their POV.

laokoko.7403:

So it depend how you look at it, from a player’s POV, or from their POV.

As a player, I would be much more worried about the alternative positions we could be in. The economy probably could be better, so Anet should probably try and make it better. But it’s doing well enough that I worry that attempting to change it will make it worse.

serapheles.5409:

laokoko.7403:

So it depend how you look at it, from a player’s POV, or from their POV.

As a player, I would be much more worried about the alternative positions we could be in. The economy probably could be better, so Anet should probably try and make it better. But it’s doing well enough that I worry that attempting to change it will make it worse.

I dont’ know what you mean by the economy could be better. I think the topic is about inflation. Most community whine and complain about inflation especially when people’s earning isn’t increased to the same level of inflation. So I think people complaining is perfectly normal.

I think people’s earning are increasing though. Some people mentioned farming some tier6 material for good money. So if people are earning more money, that cancel the effect of inflation.

Behellagh.1468:

I average two to three gold a day and I don’t do dungeons, boss trains, farm or play the TP. This is from going around killing things and selling their drops. What are you doing so wrong Trice?

on a bad day i average ~7g a day. and i don’t even pve at all. what are you doing wrong?

I give John Smith a big Two Thumbs Up for the overall management of the Guild Wars economy. This includes the current topic of possible Inflation in-game. As a long time player of many games over the years Guild Wars is the only one where Game Gold continues to hold any value. That his reply “If you think inflation is a major issue in Guild Wars 2, you should do more research on MMO economies and general economics.” ruffled feathers of a few speaks more to the few than to John.

That he has spent the time to reply to this and other topics speaks for itself when it comes to Community Involvement.

Seraphina.6859:

I am sorry to say this but “Short and sweet: If you think inflation is a major issue in Guild Wars 2, you should do more research on MMO economies and general economics.” is more like an insult rather than an actual attempt to explain his opinion on the matter.

That’s because it is more of a dismissal than an actual attempt to explain the matter. To most people versed in economics, non-specific complaints about inflation read something like ‘I have no idea what I’m talking about but I am unhappy about outcomes and have been conditioned to blame inflation, blargh!’ It’s code for being deeply unserious.

Inflation is really not an issue in this game; and yes, “being an issue” means different things in a game economy than it does in a national economy, but it’s still not an issue.

That isn’t to say that there aren’t other issues; the reward system of this game is not good, to put it kindly. Their item system and drops were slapped together over a weekend. It’s not the way you’d want to design a reward system, at all.

They’re also mostly stuck with it, because the game is popular, and it would be ridiculously disruptive to actually overhaul it and put something good in place. So instead we get some spackle in the biggest holes and a lot of duct tape.

If someone wants to complain about that, I’m sure he’d be happy to engage you, to the extent that he can given NDAs and proprietary information and all that.

But failing to mention that at all and just complaining about inflation? There’s nothing there. Either ask to get educated or go figure out something intelligible before trying again.

on a bad day i average ~7g a day. and i don’t even pve at all. what are you doing wrong?

Not playing the TP.

laokoko.7403:

Most community whine and complain about inflation especially when people’s earning isn’t increased to the same level of inflation.

Except their earnings are increased to match inflation – assuming they are ‘just playing the game’ of course, and not power-farming dungeons or otherwise just farming raw coin. That’s not the issue.

The issues, from thinking about it a couple minutes, are something like:

1). Players measure their worth in coin, and stockpile coin when saving for things, and that savings of coin does get punched when prices move around.

2). Players don’t immediately sell everything they get; they compress things to materials, which they deposit and don’t think about as their income (when material drops are 80+% of their income).

Now the latter is actually closer to what you want to do while saving – keeping a ton of drops as materials hedges really hard against inflation, and you’re basically indexed to whatever changes take place in the background and your net worth is insulated. But if you’re totally unhedged and just have a bunch of cash, that cash gets punched by inflation and you don’t see your income move on a day to day basis to match, and get kittened off.

If you have a solution (even a bad solution) for this, I’d love to hear it.

John Smith.4610:

I very much don’t agree with several of the concepts you’ve posted here. Overall though, remember the medium and that “proof” is more to show evidence that a biased sample doesn’t necessarily represent the entirety of the population.

I don’t think replying with more jargon is helping your case John. Driving off people from their complaints by using “industry terms” to make them look like idiots isn’t solving their dissatisfaction, nor does it improve community relations (which is already bad considering ANET’s track record these past 2 years).

INSTEAD of relying on sophistry, why not release data to us so that we can analyze it (to those of us who have a background in statistics or economics)? You talk about biased samples, but in no way do you try to support your statement that inflation complaints are “biased samples/outliers.”

Ensign.2189:

laokoko.7403:

Most community whine and complain about inflation especially when people’s earning isn’t increased to the same level of inflation.

Except their earnings are increased to match inflation – assuming they are ‘just playing the game’ of course, and not power-farming dungeons or otherwise just farming raw coin. That’s not the issue.

As a farmer I can honestly say my earning power is decreased. I am indeed earning much more money. But it would take me more time to farm to earn things I want compare to before. eg. tier6 materials.

If you just play the game normally. You probably dont’ earn much money. The difference of money given to farmers and people who play normally is quite big.

Quite honestly I don’t really care. Legendary, ascended armor, skins are the 3 main money sink, and I really don’t care atm. Most people playing normally probably dont’ really care too.

I honestly just look at it as Anet trying to make some money from gem store, that’s why the economy is what it is. I don’t know why people think there’s too much deep complex system going on.

Ensign.2189:

Seraphina.6859:

I am sorry to say this but “Short and sweet: If you think inflation is a major issue in Guild Wars 2, you should do more research on MMO economies and general economics.” is more like an insult rather than an actual attempt to explain his opinion on the matter.

That’s because it is more of a dismissal than an actual attempt to explain the matter. To most people versed in economics, non-specific complaints about inflation read something like ‘I have no idea what I’m talking about but I am unhappy about outcomes and have been conditioned to blame inflation, blargh!’ It’s code for being deeply unserious.

Inflation is really not an issue in this game; and yes, “being an issue” means different things in a game economy than it does in a national economy, but it’s still not an issue.

That isn’t to say that there aren’t other issues; the reward system of this game is not good, to put it kindly. Their item system and drops were slapped together over a weekend. It’s not the way you’d want to design a reward system, at all.

They’re also mostly stuck with it, because the game is popular, and it would be ridiculously disruptive to actually overhaul it and put something good in place. So instead we get some spackle in the biggest holes and a lot of duct tape.

If someone wants to complain about that, I’m sure he’d be happy to engage you, to the extent that he can given NDAs and proprietary information and all that.

But failing to mention that at all and just complaining about inflation? There’s nothing there. Either ask to get educated or go figure out something intelligible before trying again.

once again looking at it from a far distance, and comparing it to other popular MMOs, inflation isnt an issue, comparitively. However, when you actually play in the system, its pretty bad. See the things people want keep going up in value at a faster rate than the thier earnings. While in general materials maintain their value better, its only certain specific items that do well with inflation.

The major difference between this game and other games, the primary means of obtaining any item was through some form a focused play. Money is just a means of exchange. So even though the prices may have been off putting, the game itself wasnt.
You want best in slot? play this content. You want the best crafted armor? go to these places and hit these nodes/kill these enemies, then put it together. So this system tends to feel unsatisfactory because you HAVE to farm money to get anything, or else spend way more time trying to obtain it.

this system makes gold earning an end in itself rather than a means of exchange between value/playtypes/what you are good at/enjoy.

and gold earning isnt well designed to accentuate the best content of the game to boot

The problem is items with high demand and a very limited flow of new supply will always be priced so only the most wealthy in the game can afford it. Especially if supply is entirely not within the player’s control. T6 isn’t as much of a problem because if the price is sexy enough more players could go out and harvest those mats bolstering supply. Playing the mystic slots for a precursor is a rich mans game.

So the problem is not a growth in the overall money supply but the concentration of it among a few so if only the wealthy, say 10%, are the only ones who can fight for those items and what some are calling inflation is really a bidding war among the wealthy while the rest of us sit on the sidelines sighing at the price rise.

Behellagh.1468:

The problem is items with high demand and a very limited flow of new supply will always be priced so only the most wealthy in the game can afford it. Especially if supply is entirely not within the player’s control. T6 isn’t as much of a problem because if the price is sexy enough more players could go out and harvest those mats bolstering supply. Playing the mystic slots for a precursor is a rich mans game.

So the problem is not a growth in the overall money supply but the concentration of it among a few so if only the wealthy, say 10%, are the only ones who can fight for those items and what some are calling inflation are seeing a bidding war among the wealthy while the rest of us sit on the sidelines sighing at the price rise.

So what you are saying is, I should not worry when Balmer spends 2 billion on the clippers, because stuff like that only affects the really rich?

Unless he tries to make it back on the back of fans but the ticket prices are already insane for NBA games and I can’t see the wealthy happy sitting in the nose bleeds.

Behellagh.1468:

what some are calling inflation are seeing a bidding war among the wealthy while the rest of us sit on the sidelines sighing at the price rise.

What people are usually complaining about when they talk about inflation is precursor prices. Precursor prices, at least for high demand precursors, are more or less indexed to the price of T5 materials – mithril ore, elder wood, and the fine mats. My experience is that the bulk of my income, regardless of what I’m doing in game, comes from T5 mats, T6 mats, and globs of ectoplasm, all of which have risen in price as well.

I get that if you were, say, a Queensdale champ train farmer that your income has gotten punched, because that was specifically nerfed. If you do nothing but run dungeons and collect the raw gold rewards, sure, a price surge has eaten away at that value. Anything you do that rewards mats and ectos should have seen its income surge 25% or so in the past couple months, though, more or less in line with the surges in precursor prices.

This is a market telling people to stop farming dungeons and to go farm more mats.

What am I missing?

Ensign.2189:

Behellagh.1468:

what some are calling inflation are seeing a bidding war among the wealthy while the rest of us sit on the sidelines sighing at the price rise.

What people are usually complaining about when they talk about inflation is precursor prices. Precursor prices, at least for high demand precursors, are more or less indexed to the price of T5 materials – mithril ore, elder wood, and the fine mats. My experience is that the bulk of my income, regardless of what I’m doing in game, comes from T5 mats, T6 mats, and globs of ectoplasm, all of which have risen in price as well.

I get that if you were, say, a Queensdale champ train farmer that your income has gotten punched, because that was specifically nerfed. If you do nothing but run dungeons and collect the raw gold rewards, sure, a price surge has eaten away at that value. Anything you do that rewards mats and ectos should have seen its income surge 25% or so in the past couple months, though, more or less in line with the surges in precursor prices.

This is a market telling people to stop farming dungeons and to go farm more mats.

What am I missing?

Not much, except that the best way to get mats would probably be, run in circles doing 3-4 dynamic events in groups of 20+ over and over. Which is the issue, the game is just about get as much gold as fast as you can, rather than getting good at different types of well designed content.

the other factor is the vast majority of items you are talking about, are not the items you get.
so when these things inflate, perhaps 1/5th your drops inflate well, the rest dont, silk, wood, mithril, yellow sigils/runes, blues/greens, junk items, which means overall you are probably behind the inflation of high end stuff like gems, precursors, mats for special weapons, and new items that can be bought that they add in the future.