Guild Wars 2

People here seem to have an issue differentiating between inflation in an economy and the natural effects of supply/demand on specific items.

eithinan.9841:

People here seem to have an issue differentiating between inflation in an economy and the natural effects of supply/demand on specific items.

doesnt really matter what the word for it is, The point is, items people want keep rising at a higher rate than thier earnings. If it was real inflation, only people who mostly save would be upset.

I mean it helps to be using the same terms in a discussion, but the heart of communication is figuring out what the person intends to say, or feels.

phys.7689:

eithinan.9841:

People here seem to have an issue differentiating between inflation in an economy and the natural effects of supply/demand on specific items.

doesnt really matter what the word for it is, The point is, items people want keep rising at a higher rate than thier earnings. If it was real inflation, only people who mostly save would be upset.

I mean it helps to be using the same terms in a discussion, but the heart of communication is figuring out what the person intends to say, or feels.

How can one properly communicate if the words don’t matter? I have no responsibility in trying to decipher what someone else is trying to say when they wont even put forth the effort to say it correctly.

I would argue that the “heart of communication” is properly phrasing your statements so all can understand what you are saying. If one does not have the knowledge or background on the subject material then they should refrain from sharing their uneducated opinions on said subject.

Lothirieth.3408:

John Smith.4610:

Short and sweet:
If you think inflation is a major issue in Guild Wars 2, you should do more research on MMO economies and general economics.

And here is one of the largest problems: do you really think the majority of the GW2 population actually has an interest in economics and would find this fun?

I’d think (and of course I could be wrong) most people in the game want a fun game to play and earn items through playing content (better, shinier items through challenging content), not this random money grind that’s been set up.

No but then again, GW2 makes it simple enough that players don’t NEED to have a interest in Economics to play it successfully.

I would think that after 2 years, people at some point would come around to realize that if they want their items as direct rewards from content, GW2 just ISN’T that kind of game and I doubt it will be for two reasons:

1. The amount of work it would take to make it that kind of game.
2. Maybe I’m jaded by years of gaming but earning loot directly though content just sucks because if I’m after specific and awesome loot, the only way to make it hard to get is to make people play REPEATED, hard content; not a few times … a few dozen maybe, perhaps hundreds. GW2 throws that tired garbage out the window. Now I can do What I want, When I want, How I want with Who I want and get anything I want … and people are complaining about this? Honestly, go back to WoW.

eithinan.9841:

phys.7689:

eithinan.9841:

People here seem to have an issue differentiating between inflation in an economy and the natural effects of supply/demand on specific items.

doesnt really matter what the word for it is, The point is, items people want keep rising at a higher rate than thier earnings. If it was real inflation, only people who mostly save would be upset.

I mean it helps to be using the same terms in a discussion, but the heart of communication is figuring out what the person intends to say, or feels.

How can one properly communicate if the words don’t matter? I have no responsibility in trying to decipher what someone else is trying to say when they wont even put forth the effort to say it correctly.

I would argue that the “heart of communication” is properly phrasing your statements so all can understand what you are saying. If one does not have the knowledge or background on the subject material then they should refrain from sharing their uneducated opinions on said subject.

Communication is a two way street, they may be wrong for using the wrong words, but you arent helping by not looking for what they are trying to say. So while its valid to correct them, its not productive to stop your desire to understand at that moment. How in the world would any one communicate in such a rigid system? Word use and ideas differ from subculture to subculture, proffession to profession, language to language. worlds also evolve and change with time, and with changes in the field of study.
This is why people tend to use more than just a few words to communicate an idea, because it makes it less likely that using one word the party doesnt understand, or misunderstands, does obscure the meaning completely.

Lastly, its a false premise that somene who doesnt share the same vocabulary as you knows less or has less understanding of an issue than you, or cant make valid observations. Its a classic mistake for academics to think this way.

Obtena.7952:

Lothirieth.3408:

John Smith.4610:

Short and sweet:
If you think inflation is a major issue in Guild Wars 2, you should do more research on MMO economies and general economics.

And here is one of the largest problems: do you really think the majority of the GW2 population actually has an interest in economics and would find this fun?

I’d think (and of course I could be wrong) most people in the game want a fun game to play and earn items through playing content (better, shinier items through challenging content), not this random money grind that’s been set up.

No but then again, GW2 makes it simple enough that players don’t NEED to have a interest in Economics to play it successfully.

I would think that after 2 years, people at some point would come around to realize that if they want their items as direct rewards from content, GW2 just ISN’T that kind of game and I doubt it will be for two reasons:

1. The amount of work it would take to make it that kind of game.
2. Maybe I’m jaded by years of gaming but earning loot directly though content just sucks because if I’m after specific and awesome loot, the only way to make it hard to get is to make people play REPEATED, hard content; not a few times … a few dozen maybe, perhaps hundreds. GW2 throws that tired garbage out the window. Now I can do What I want, When I want, How I want with Who I want and get anything I want … and people are complaining about this? Honestly, go back to WoW.

now you can do repeated easy content while you are watching netflix, and get more rewards than doing a lot more paying attention and work. Well, makes sense from an effeciency and attention required per reward sense. But doesnt really make sense from a game design perspective.

Im not saying everything should be in raids (i dont raid) but the best rewards should come from playing the game well. preferably in ways that highlight well designed content.
in various modes of play.

phys.7689:

eithinan.9841:

phys.7689:

eithinan.9841:

People here seem to have an issue differentiating between inflation in an economy and the natural effects of supply/demand on specific items.

doesnt really matter what the word for it is, The point is, items people want keep rising at a higher rate than thier earnings. If it was real inflation, only people who mostly save would be upset.

I mean it helps to be using the same terms in a discussion, but the heart of communication is figuring out what the person intends to say, or feels.

How can one properly communicate if the words don’t matter? I have no responsibility in trying to decipher what someone else is trying to say when they wont even put forth the effort to say it correctly.

I would argue that the “heart of communication” is properly phrasing your statements so all can understand what you are saying. If one does not have the knowledge or background on the subject material then they should refrain from sharing their uneducated opinions on said subject.

Communication is a two way street, they may be wrong for using the wrong words, but you arent helping by not looking for what they are trying to say. So while its valid to correct them, its not productive to stop your desire to understand at that moment. How in the world would any one communicate in such a rigid system? Word use and ideas differ from subculture to subculture, proffession to profession, language to language. worlds also evolve and change with time, and with changes in the field of study.
This is why people tend to use more than just a few words to communicate an idea, because it makes it less likely that using one word the party doesnt understand, or misunderstands, does obscure the meaning completely.

Lastly, its a false premise that somene who doesnt share the same vocabulary as you knows less or has less understanding of an issue than you, or cant make valid observations. Its a classic mistake for academics to think this way.

So, Im going to address the claim that I am an Acedemic with a hearty BWAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

In response to “you arent helping by not looking for what they are trying to say.” I will leave my first post here.

eithinan.9841:

People here seem to have an issue differentiating between inflation in an economy and the natural effects of supply/demand on specific items.

I think that post was much more helpful than you telling everyone that

phys.7689:

doesnt really matter what the word for it is

You see I was trying to educate people who kept making WRONG statements over and over again. I never stopped trying to understand what was being said. I can sum up my opinion on what people are saying in this thread with the following,

if there is an issue to be addressed with the price of certain items on the TP then they will be addressed by Anet with loot table adjustment or some farm event. But no matter what, high demand/ low supply items will always be expensive. This is what I keep reading people complaining about. But it is not INFLATION. It never has been and never will be. ever.

Inflation: a general increase in prices and fall in the purchasing value of money.

There has been and will be inflation in GW2. Always and forever because there is always going to be players playing the game and infusing new gold(rewards) into the economy. To this end the hoarders who have the 50k stockpiles of gold in their banks and such are actually responsible for slowing down the rate of inflation in GW2 by removing that active capital from the economy.

“LaLaLaLaLa! I’m not listening! I don’t care if it’s not inflation, that’s what I’m calling it so it’s inflation.”

Which seems to be the position of some in this thread. eithinan so far summed up the whole issue in as few words as possible.

/clap

Inflation is a problem when items you need to play the game become more expensive than the average player can afford. You don’t need a Legendary or ascended gear or a weapon skin from a BL chest to play the game.

When your toon reaches level 40 and you spend 50s on a new set of armor and weapons, then it reaches 50 a week later and you need but don’t have 15g for replacement (blue/green) gear, there’s a problem.

Players compete for rare items by throwing piles of money at them. As the game goes on, those piles of money get bigger. It’s not a problem, it’s just how that part of the game works. If you want to play with them, have a bigger pile of money than they do.

^ Exactly so.

However, the flip side of the equation is if cosmetics are by and large meant to be GW2’s “endgame”, at what point does the difficulty of obtaining those cosmetics begin to get large enough that it starts to turn away prospective players? (Or those who play for a bit, think it’s too hard to get those cool shinies, and stop playing as a result.)

Of course, on the hypothetical third hand, if skins were made easier to get, how many of those players would simply quit the game once they’d reached their goal, as opposed to striving for more skins to collect?

eithinan.9841:

phys.7689:

eithinan.9841:

phys.7689:

eithinan.9841:

People here seem to have an issue differentiating between inflation in an economy and the natural effects of supply/demand on specific items.

doesnt really matter what the word for it is, The point is, items people want keep rising at a higher rate than thier earnings. If it was real inflation, only people who mostly save would be upset.

I mean it helps to be using the same terms in a discussion, but the heart of communication is figuring out what the person intends to say, or feels.

How can one properly communicate if the words don’t matter? I have no responsibility in trying to decipher what someone else is trying to say when they wont even put forth the effort to say it correctly.

I would argue that the “heart of communication” is properly phrasing your statements so all can understand what you are saying. If one does not have the knowledge or background on the subject material then they should refrain from sharing their uneducated opinions on said subject.

Communication is a two way street, they may be wrong for using the wrong words, but you arent helping by not looking for what they are trying to say. So while its valid to correct them, its not productive to stop your desire to understand at that moment. How in the world would any one communicate in such a rigid system? Word use and ideas differ from subculture to subculture, proffession to profession, language to language. worlds also evolve and change with time, and with changes in the field of study.
This is why people tend to use more than just a few words to communicate an idea, because it makes it less likely that using one word the party doesnt understand, or misunderstands, does obscure the meaning completely.

Lastly, its a false premise that somene who doesnt share the same vocabulary as you knows less or has less understanding of an issue than you, or cant make valid observations. Its a classic mistake for academics to think this way.

So, Im going to address the claim that I am an Acedemic with a hearty BWAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

In response to “you arent helping by not looking for what they are trying to say.” I will leave my first post here.

eithinan.9841:

People here seem to have an issue differentiating between inflation in an economy and the natural effects of supply/demand on specific items.

I think that post was much more helpful than you telling everyone that

phys.7689:

doesnt really matter what the word for it is

You see I was trying to educate people who kept making WRONG statements over and over again. I never stopped trying to understand what was being said. I can sum up my opinion on what people are saying in this thread with the following,

if there is an issue to be addressed with the price of certain items on the TP then they will be addressed by Anet with loot table adjustment or some farm event. But no matter what, high demand/ low supply items will always be expensive. This is what I keep reading people complaining about. But it is not INFLATION. It never has been and never will be. ever.

Inflation: a general increase in prices and fall in the purchasing value of money.

There has been and will be inflation in GW2. Always and forever because there is always going to be players playing the game and infusing new gold(rewards) into the economy. To this end the hoarders who have the 50k stockpiles of gold in their banks and such are actually responsible for slowing down the rate of inflation in GW2 by removing that active capital from the economy.

I got no problem with trying to get people to make what words the use mean more clear, that can promote understanding, but you clearly said if people dont know what the right words are they should not speak, i disagree with that statement.

As far as the issue, it is as some people have said, its that the things they want seem to be getting further and further away.

Its like when housing begins to cost more, and people in that area are making less and less, then you get a lot of people who become disatisfied with the economy. Now you could tell them to shut up, but its not something people like to see irl, why would they want to see it ingame?

Zaxares.5419:

^ Exactly so.

However, the flip side of the equation is if cosmetics are by and large meant to be GW2’s “endgame”, at what point does the difficulty of obtaining those cosmetics begin to get large enough that it starts to turn away prospective players? (Or those who play for a bit, think it’s too hard to get those cool shinies, and stop playing as a result.)

Of course, on the hypothetical third hand, if skins were made easier to get, how many of those players would simply quit the game once they’d reached their goal, as opposed to striving for more skins to collect?

and this is one of the keys, the reality is, these items are meant to be things people want to pursue, it keeps them playing and gives them goals. Anyhow whatever is clever, at the end of the day we will be able to look back and see how well it worked or didnt work. The game is still standing for now, so maybe its fine. If the game collapses, maybe it was a factor.

Wanze.8410:

LordByron.8369:

John Smith.4610:

LordByron.8369:

You are wrong.
There are some reasons why inflation coesn t take in account value of alpacas in France.

For the same reason should not take in account all the stuff that has almost no (real) demand.

While T6, Precursors, lodestones, gems, etc etc etc should be the best indicators.

@Wanze… i won t answer since i don t find most of your comments “useful”.

First off, there is a huge amount of demand for alpacas, they’re pretty awesome.

Short and sweet:
If you think inflation is a major issue in Guild Wars 2, you should do more research on MMO economies and general economics.

Excuse me if this uneducated player just posted how inflation is officially calculated in Italy by Istat (national institute of statistic).

And that calculation is used for balancing salaries.

@Phoebe: in other games luckily you are not forced usually to use the TP but can farm your stuff.
In GW2 farming everything you need is not realistic.
Just like diablo 3 economy, that led to some unpleasant consequences that we have even here even if in a watered down form.

Italy doesnt calculate its Consumer Price Index based on the price of t6 mats, lodestones or precursors either.
http://www3.istat.it/salastampa/comunicati/in_calendario/precon/20100223_00/consumer_price_jan_2010.pdf

And how is farming everything you need in guild wars 2 not realistic?
Its the stuff you want that is not realistically farmed in game, but thats a different matter.

Putting a link and playing with words its only a weak attempt at spreading false concepts.
What i said stands true, what you said its pointless as Always.

Now if this was a real economy we would see most of you charged for economic offenses, but here there is no antitrust and similar and even worse, the fact we didn’t even see any ban for the TP exploits of few weeks ago suggests a lot.

LordByron.8369:

Putting a link and playing with words its only a weak attempt at spreading false concepts.
What i said stands true, what you said its pointless as Always.

Now if this was a real economy we would see most of you charged for economic offenses, but here there is no antitrust and similar and even worse, the fact we didn’t even see any ban for the TP exploits of few weeks ago suggests a lot.

It shows that the company wants people to give up on earning something and just say: “I’ll only spend 20 bucks.” or anything along those lines. I hate posting in this forum section, because if anyone ever says anything negative about the in game economy you have a group of players who jump down your throat. What makes it even worse is that JS joins in and acts all superior and condescending without having any repercussions. JS at some point you will learn that there are people out there with much more knowledge and understanding than you, and hopefully all your condescension will come back to bite you. I honestly can’t believe anyone who works for a multi-million dollar company can say the things he does to the playerbase. Well it’s not like very many people are going to see this post because I’ll have an infraction(maybe suspension) and a deletion incoming.

Zaxares.5419

Of course, on the hypothetical third hand, if skins were made easier to get, how many of those players would simply quit the game once they’d reached their goal, as opposed to striving for more skins to collect?

Remember that it’s the players, not Anet, putting a high value on these items. They are only as expensive as someone is willing to pay. Anet can inject more of an item into the economy by reintroducing old items through LS rewards and other means, lowering the value by making it more common if price becomes a problem.

But the other way around, if players don’t have anything to strive for, they keep going through the motions and building up a pile of coin that goes nowhere and gold becomes worth less… and eventually worthless. Every transaction for those ultra-rare items removes hundreds of gold from the economy through TP fees, and one item can change hands several times. Without that, common items would become more expensive just because older players have too much money and nothing to spend it on.

LordByron.8369:

Putting a link and playing with words its only a weak attempt at spreading false concepts.
What i said stands true, what you said its pointless as Always.

Can you post any evidence for your claims? No.

That’s it. We clearly need JS to publish GW2’s CPI, consumer sentiment surveys, and M1 (gold coins in circulation and in guild bank accounts) / m2 (M1 + gold value of gems). Forward guidance would also be nice.

Before people forget, there was a time when charged lodestones were hitting around 4-5g each, Onyx lodestones were 1.5g each, t6 blood was around 1g each, ectos were hitting kitten . T6 dust also reached around 50-60s each. Of course, those also were the times when a chaos gun was around 100-200g only. (legendaries are crazy now)

I’m no economics guy. But if inflation was that severe, wouldn’t it affect all kinds of goods instead of a few luxury pieces? Like, wouldn’t my 70g now have less purchasing power than back then? (I was gone for more than 6 months more or less) Honestly I feel I can still buy the things I want/need the same as before. And its even easier now, coz just by playing casually, I managed to get 40g more just buy playing the game over a few days (which would probably be pennies to most of you guys).

Mckeone.9804:

That’s it. We clearly need JS to publish GW2’s CPI, consumer sentiment surveys, and M1 (gold coins in circulation and in guild bank accounts) / m2 (M1 + gold value of gems). Forward guidance would also be nice.

A CPI can easily be done by the player base, we got all the tools for it. Someone actually done it a couple of months ago but unfortunately the website is not online anymore, it was interesting data.

The only thing we dont have info about is the average gold faucet and sink per player.

penatbater.4710:

Before people forget, there was a time when charged lodestones were hitting around 4-5g each, Onyx lodestones were 1.5g each, t6 blood was around 1g each, ectos were hitting kitten . T6 dust also reached around 50-60s each. Of course, those also were the times when a chaos gun was around 100-200g only. (legendaries are crazy now)

I’m no economics guy. But if inflation was that severe, wouldn’t it affect all kinds of goods instead of a few luxury pieces? Like, wouldn’t my 70g now have less purchasing power than back then? (I was gone for more than 6 months more or less) Honestly I feel I can still buy the things I want/need the same as before. And its even easier now, coz just by playing casually, I managed to get 40g more just buy playing the game over a few days (which would probably be pennies to most of you guys).

Thing is almost all material are tied in with legendary and ascended gear. So it will compose of a huge percent of the CPI. If you look at your collection, only thing not related are cooking material and miniature.

Anet controlled the lodestone price at that time with orian jewel box, and t6 dust with ecto salvaging. I suppose the champ bag helps stabilize the core and lodestone price after that.

I don’t know what you getting at for luxury item. You can play in exotic and not worry about the economy. If that’s what you mean. Because just about every item do went up in price.

I don’t really know about fancy indicators and bizarre definitions, but 12 months ago if you could make 5g/hr you were at the top of the farming game, and doing well.

Today you would get laughed at if you were only making 5g/hr and considered that good. Usually people expect 8-10g/hr playing the game now and some people claim up to 15g/hr. So the amount of money you make is certainly much higher then it was a year ago, not sure what that says about inflation.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

I don’t really know about fancy indicators and bizarre definitions, but 12 months ago if you could make 5g/hr you were at the top of the farming game, and doing well.

Today you would get laughed at if you were only making 5g/hr and considered that good. Usually people expect 8-10g/hr playing the game now and some people claim up to 15g/hr. So the amount of money you make is certainly much higher then it was a year ago, not sure what that says about inflation.

That in and of itself says nothing about inflation, but rather the rate at which gold supply enters the economy.

Gold supply can impact inflation if it is not offset with appropriate gold sinks.

you probably need to be actively farming to make 8-10g/hr.

that being said, all people do is farm in this game, so that is probably correct.

and there is actually the people who dont farm, so they spend their time complaining on the forum and talk about he manifesto “oh we don’t want you to swing your sword 1000 times to….”

Behellagh.1468:

“LaLaLaLaLa! I’m not listening! I don’t care if it’s not inflation, that’s what I’m calling it so it’s inflation.”

Which seems to be the position of some in this thread. eithinan so far summed up the whole issue in as few words as possible.

/clap

Well, in fairness, most westerners have been beaten over the head with “inflation bad! INFLATION BAD!” for like 35 years now, and while very few people actually know what it is, everyone knows it is very very bad, so you might as well call whatever that thing prices are doing that you don’t like inflation to tap into that sentiment.

mtpelion.4562:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

I don’t really know about fancy indicators and bizarre definitions, but 12 months ago if you could make 5g/hr you were at the top of the farming game, and doing well.

Today you would get laughed at if you were only making 5g/hr and considered that good. Usually people expect 8-10g/hr playing the game now and some people claim up to 15g/hr. So the amount of money you make is certainly much higher then it was a year ago, not sure what that says about inflation.

That in and of itself says nothing about inflation, but rather the rate at which gold supply enters the economy.

Gold supply can impact inflation if it is not offset with appropriate gold sinks.

I think what he’s saying is why does it matter if there’s inflation. Dusk sell for 700 but everyone makes 5 gold/hour. Dusk sell for 1400 but everyone makes 10 gold/hour. That’s the same thing right?

Not taking account into item hoarder or gold hoarder, the amount of time to acquire an item is the same.

laokoko.7403:

mtpelion.4562:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

I don’t really know about fancy indicators and bizarre definitions, but 12 months ago if you could make 5g/hr you were at the top of the farming game, and doing well.

Today you would get laughed at if you were only making 5g/hr and considered that good. Usually people expect 8-10g/hr playing the game now and some people claim up to 15g/hr. So the amount of money you make is certainly much higher then it was a year ago, not sure what that says about inflation.

That in and of itself says nothing about inflation, but rather the rate at which gold supply enters the economy.

Gold supply can impact inflation if it is not offset with appropriate gold sinks.

I think what he’s saying is why does it matter if there’s inflation. Dusk sell for 700 but everyone makes 5 gold/hour. Dusk sell for 1400 but everyone makes 10 gold/hour. That’s the same thing right?

Not taking account into item hoarder or gold hoarder, the amount of time to acquire an item is the same.

If earnings increase at the same rate as prices, you don’t have a personal reduction in buying power so while there would be “inflation” in the sense that 1 gold is worth less, there wouldn’t be any negative impact on the players because now they can earn 2 gold in the time it took to earn 1 gold before.

The problem is when Dusk goes from 700 to 1400 but everyone’s earnings go from 5 to 8 gold/hour because now it takes longer to buy Dusk.

laokoko.7403:

mtpelion.4562:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

I don’t really know about fancy indicators and bizarre definitions, but 12 months ago if you could make 5g/hr you were at the top of the farming game, and doing well.

Today you would get laughed at if you were only making 5g/hr and considered that good. Usually people expect 8-10g/hr playing the game now and some people claim up to 15g/hr. So the amount of money you make is certainly much higher then it was a year ago, not sure what that says about inflation.

That in and of itself says nothing about inflation, but rather the rate at which gold supply enters the economy.

Gold supply can impact inflation if it is not offset with appropriate gold sinks.

I think what he’s saying is why does it matter if there’s inflation. Dusk sell for 700 but everyone makes 5 gold/hour. Dusk sell for 1400 but everyone makes 10 gold/hour. That’s the same thing right?

Not taking account into item hoarder or gold hoarder, the amount of time to acquire an item is the same.

“Dusk sell for 700 but everyone makes 5 gold/hour. Dusk sell for 1400 but everyone makes 10 gold/hour. That’s the same thing right?”

This is the same thing if you ignore the factor of time. Unfortunately, it takes many players time to save up for something. While the purchasing power of the player earning is proportional, as time go by, the purchasing power of the saving diminishes.

HTH
-Bachopin

phys.7689:

Obtena.7952:

Lothirieth.3408:

John Smith.4610:

Short and sweet:
If you think inflation is a major issue in Guild Wars 2, you should do more research on MMO economies and general economics.

And here is one of the largest problems: do you really think the majority of the GW2 population actually has an interest in economics and would find this fun?

I’d think (and of course I could be wrong) most people in the game want a fun game to play and earn items through playing content (better, shinier items through challenging content), not this random money grind that’s been set up.

No but then again, GW2 makes it simple enough that players don’t NEED to have a interest in Economics to play it successfully.

I would think that after 2 years, people at some point would come around to realize that if they want their items as direct rewards from content, GW2 just ISN’T that kind of game and I doubt it will be for two reasons:

1. The amount of work it would take to make it that kind of game.
2. Maybe I’m jaded by years of gaming but earning loot directly though content just sucks because if I’m after specific and awesome loot, the only way to make it hard to get is to make people play REPEATED, hard content; not a few times … a few dozen maybe, perhaps hundreds. GW2 throws that tired garbage out the window. Now I can do What I want, When I want, How I want with Who I want and get anything I want … and people are complaining about this? Honestly, go back to WoW.

Im not saying everything should be in raids (i dont raid) but the best rewards should come from playing the game well. preferably in ways that highlight well designed content.
in various modes of play.

The rewards do come from playing the game well from various modes of play … I can get much more done or higher scores if I play the game better than the next guy, increasing my potential to earn more. Are you trying to suggest it’s not? If so, go ahead and illustrate your point with real examples. Here are a few of my own:

1. Openworkd farming … more rewarding if you know where to go, understand the market, outfit yourself accordingly.
2. Dungeons – The difference between speed running and Cleric-equipped PUGS is significant
3. WvW/PvP – Perfect example of how skills in these aspects increases your satisfaction in playing.

I’m certain the semi-AFK guy watching Netflix isn’t even close to game satisfaction and rewards the highest rated players in these game aspects are.

TLDR: What you say is needed already exists WITHIN the game model that Anet has built the game around.

Gold is not a rewarding reward for a lot of players. It’s a secondary result of going for desired rewards. That’s where this game misses the mark. It believes gold is the best reward.

Essence Snow.3194:

Gold is not a rewarding reward for a lot of players. It’s a secondary result of going for desired rewards.

Then GW2 is the game for those players because most game elements don’t make gold the primary reward. It’s certainly the case that the most accomplished PVP and WvW players don’t do it for gold. Even to a certain extent, a few PVE players don’t do spped runs in dungeons for gold either.

Essence Snow.3194:

That’s where this game misses the mark. It believes gold is the best reward.

Unless you have some specific examples, the only exception I can think of where this is true are the short paths in dungeons … rewards here don’t match difficulty IMO. I don’t believe these limited cases justify your belief that Anet thinks gold is the best reward.

To provide a counter example, Anet just recently nerfed Champ trains … because they believe gold is the best reward? Think again. Same is true when they changed dungeon loot to limit rewards from repeating paths a long time back. Sorry, but there are lots of examples that actually prove your statement to be just wrong.

Obtena.7952:

The rewards do come from playing the game well from various modes of play … I can get much more done or higher scores if I play the game better than the next guy, increasing my potential to earn more. Are you trying to suggest it’s not? If so, go ahead and illustrate your point with real examples. Here are a few of my own:

1. Openworkd farming … more rewarding if you know where to go, understand the market, outfit yourself accordingly.
2. Dungeons – The difference between speed running and Cleric-equipped PUGS is significant
3. WvW/PvP – Perfect example of how skills in these aspects increases your satisfaction in playing.

I’m certain the semi-AFK guy watching Netflix isn’t even close to game satisfaction and rewards the highest rated players in these game aspects are.

TLDR: What you say is needed already exists WITHIN the game model that Anet has built the game around.

1. Open world farming best to go where everyone else is going, the amount of stuff you kill is way more important than what you kill, unless you can get 20-30 people to go where you want. Or do a champ train.
2.Dungeons, your speed running skills help here, but there isnt much excitement in shaving 30 seconds off your time, since your reward or chance of good reward is the same, Essentially making a 10 minute run into a 9.5 minute run is just a 5% increase in time saved, since every path is daily anyhow, this will only make much of difference if you do like 12 paths in one day youll save a whopping 6 minutes of time. Getting the same rewards.
3.WvW is actually totally out of balance, you get the best rewards by not playing the game well. Karma train in EOTM is best rewards, and it has nothing to with skill, or the game mode. sPVP, you do get the best rewards for winning by a fair margin. This is probably in an ok place incentive wise, Though it could use some more skill based rewards.

How rewards could have been given to incentive better play, imo?

1)open world: Dynamic events give better rewards based on how difficult they are, Chain bonuses to rewards or chances of good items for completing different events in a zone. Additional bonuses for how well your group succeeds. Treasure chest challenges, get to X chest within X time from some starting point for better rewards. No death rewards, better or special rewards for experience earned while in a zone without dying, better rewards the more difficult the area/longer you have gone without dying in that area.

2)Dungeons. Added bonuses based on Dungeon clear rank, which is based on team deaths, speed of clear, objectives completed and non respawning enemies killed. Added bonuses for Secret random event completed, (difficult bosses fights hidden in a few random locations in dungeon) Overall difficulty of each dungeon path factored in to base reward for completion. Some items only available, or likely from bonus.

3) WvW: better rewards in actual WvW, System that can better track and reward defending. Bonus objectives bonuses, Map can vote pick 2 main objectives in an hour, if they complete the task they are awarded bonus points/rewards, if the opposing team prevents that goal, they award bonus points/rewards. Objectives like take enemy garrison, or hold Stone mist, OR control X amount of map for X long, take X amount of camps. Spvp, pretty fine, id add the ability to gamble on yourself, and team based stats/ratings. The tournament system was pretty good, reward wise, even though it didnt have the numbers playing it, perhaps limit the starting times, something like magic online does. Require an entrance fee which goes to the reward pot.

point is, the things that give the most reward in this game are actually pretty far from playing the best in general.
i can be more specific if you dont know what i mean.

Obtena.7952:

Essence Snow.3194:

Gold is not a rewarding reward for a lot of players. It’s a secondary result of going for desired rewards.

Then GW2 is the game for those players because most game elements don’t make gold the primary reward. It’s certainly the case that the most accomplished PVP and WvW players don’t do it for gold. Even to a certain extent, a few PVE players don’t do spped runs in dungeons for gold either.

Essence Snow.3194:

That’s where this game misses the mark. It believes gold is the best reward.

Unless you have some specific examples, the only exception I can think of where this is true are the short paths in dungeons … rewards here don’t match difficulty IMO. I don’t believe these limited cases justify your belief that Anet thinks gold is the best reward.

To provide a counter example, Anet just recently nerfed Champ trains … because they believe gold is the best reward? Think again. Same is true when they changed dungeon loot to limit rewards from repeating paths a long time back. Sorry, but there are lots of examples that actually prove your statement to be just wrong.

what you are saying here, is opposite of what you just told me i your higher post, this post says, the game doesnt reward gold for difficult play, but in your reply to me, you say the game gives you better rewards for playing better?

These two ideas are in direct opposition to each other.

I agree with your post here, the game does not give gold, or really any rewards for playing better. Even the people who like this system say you basically farm for rewards, and have fun or do challenging content seperately.
IMO this is a bad design, you should reward people for doing the best content you have available, whether it be open world, jump puzzles, dungeons, etc. You then reward them more for being good at it, whatever that it is. Lastly if you can, you tailor the rewards to the playtype, so that the type of people who do it, get the type of rewards they would want to have.

There is no opposition, you just didn’t read what I wrote … I provided an EXCEPTION where rewards don’t match difficulty as well as COUNTER-EXAMPLES to show Anet is working to make rewards match difficulty as the game evolves. Reading is fun. You don’t need to be more specific but you haven’t really made a counter to my point either.

More skilled players are always going to be rewarded better in this game, even if they aren’t playing according to some standard you set for them and that’s evident from the examples I provided. Again, the simplest example being farming: The better outfitted and knowledgeable player is going to be better rewarded than the clueless scrub. Being skilled actually means knowing the most efficient approach to successfully completing the content you do … i.e., being rewarded.

Obtena.7952:

Essence Snow.3194:

Gold is not a rewarding reward for a lot of players. It’s a secondary result of going for desired rewards.

Then GW2 is the game for those players because most game elements don’t make gold the primary reward. It’s certainly the case that the most accomplished PVP and WvW players don’t do it for gold. Even to a certain extent, a few PVE players don’t do spped runs in dungeons for gold either.

Essence Snow.3194:

That’s where this game misses the mark. It believes gold is the best reward.

Unless you have some specific examples, the only exception I can think of where this is true are the short paths in dungeons … rewards here don’t match difficulty IMO. I don’t believe these limited cases justify your belief that Anet thinks gold is the best reward.

To provide a counter example, Anet just recently nerfed Champ trains … because they believe gold is the best reward? Think again. Same is true when they changed dungeon loot to limit rewards from repeating paths a long time back. Sorry, but there are lots of examples that actually prove your statement to be just wrong.

The most obvious example is that players cannot reasonably go directly after most rewards. They are locked behind rng, thus it is best to go for gold instead. It’s in the core design.

tl;dr RNG gating is the example

Obtena.7952:

You don’t need to be more specific but you haven’t really made a counter to my point either.

More skilled players are always going to be rewarded better in this game, even if they aren’t playing according to some standard you set for them and that’s evident from the examples I provided. Being skilled actually means knowing the most efficient approach to successfully completing the content you do … i.e., being rewarded.

You mean lucky players?

^^ Are you going to QQ to me about the 1/10000 time someone pulls a precursor from a chest? Are you really going to make your argument based on highly improbable exceptions?

Essence Snow.3194:

Obtena.7952:

Essence Snow.3194:

Gold is not a rewarding reward for a lot of players. It’s a secondary result of going for desired rewards.

Then GW2 is the game for those players because most game elements don’t make gold the primary reward. It’s certainly the case that the most accomplished PVP and WvW players don’t do it for gold. Even to a certain extent, a few PVE players don’t do spped runs in dungeons for gold either.

Essence Snow.3194:

That’s where this game misses the mark. It believes gold is the best reward.

Unless you have some specific examples, the only exception I can think of where this is true are the short paths in dungeons … rewards here don’t match difficulty IMO. I don’t believe these limited cases justify your belief that Anet thinks gold is the best reward.

To provide a counter example, Anet just recently nerfed Champ trains … because they believe gold is the best reward? Think again. Same is true when they changed dungeon loot to limit rewards from repeating paths a long time back. Sorry, but there are lots of examples that actually prove your statement to be just wrong.

The most obvious example is that players cannot reasonably go directly after most rewards. They are locked behind rng, thus it is best to go for gold instead. It’s in the core design.

tl;dr RNG gating is the example

That example is WRONG because those same rewards can more frequently and more reliably be purchased on the TP. Furthermore, purchased with gold resulting from direct or sold rewards from doing any content you feel is most rewarding to YOU. The fact someone gets lucky doesn’t prove that, in general, the game rewards are not aligned to difficulty. There are exceptions but heir existence doesn’t invalidate Anet’s approach to rewarding players who are more skilled than others.

Obtena.7952:

Essence Snow.3194:

Obtena.7952:

Essence Snow.3194:

Gold is not a rewarding reward for a lot of players. It’s a secondary result of going for desired rewards.

Then GW2 is the game for those players because most game elements don’t make gold the primary reward. It’s certainly the case that the most accomplished PVP and WvW players don’t do it for gold. Even to a certain extent, a few PVE players don’t do spped runs in dungeons for gold either.

Essence Snow.3194:

That’s where this game misses the mark. It believes gold is the best reward.

Unless you have some specific examples, the only exception I can think of where this is true are the short paths in dungeons … rewards here don’t match difficulty IMO. I don’t believe these limited cases justify your belief that Anet thinks gold is the best reward.

To provide a counter example, Anet just recently nerfed Champ trains … because they believe gold is the best reward? Think again. Same is true when they changed dungeon loot to limit rewards from repeating paths a long time back. Sorry, but there are lots of examples that actually prove your statement to be just wrong.

The most obvious example is that players cannot reasonably go directly after most rewards. They are locked behind rng, thus it is best to go for gold instead. It’s in the core design.

tl;dr RNG gating is the example

Again, you’ve excluded the other most obvious example being that those same rewards can be purchased on the TP.

How can you counter that gold is a primary reward by saying you can use gold to buy rewards?

Skilled players are more rewarded in more ways than just gold and I believe based on how I see Anet changing the game (e.g. dungeon diminishing returns, champ train) as well as seeing how successful players actually play all the various aspects of the game. This doesn’t mean that if part of their reward is gold, there is a flaw in the reward system or that skilled players aren’t rewarded more because of it. I don’t see where you are going with your line of questions.

If you want to argue if gold is the ‘primary reward’, I don’t see how that’s relevant but if you think it’s relevant to the statement I made, back it up with examples (not exceptions) to show me why you think Gold as a primary reward DOESN’T reward skilled players more than scrubs. I don’t see skilled players complaining that they get gold from their activities, whether they consider it a primary reward or not.

Obtena.7952:

If you want to argue if gold is the ‘primary reward’, I don’t see how that’s relevant but if you think it’s relevant to the statement I made, back it up with examples (not exceptions) to show me why you think Gold as a primary reward DOESN’T reward skilled players more than scrubs. I don’t see skilled players complaining that they get gold from their activities, whether they consider it a primary reward or not.

Obtena.7952:

There is no opposition, you just didn’t read what I wrote … I provided an EXCEPTION where rewards don’t match difficulty as well as COUNTER-EXAMPLES to show Anet is working to make rewards match difficulty as the game evolves. Reading is fun. You don’t need to be more specific but you haven’t really made a counter to my point either.

So exceptions or no exceptions? or You can use them but we cannot?

Exceptions don’t prove or disprove general trends. I just acknowledged they exist to have an honest discussion. You attempted to use them to show unskilled players are rewarded as much as skilled ones. If you understood statistics (and they apply here because we are talking about a population) you would know why exceptions should be acknowledged and how they can be ignored because they are so infrequent that they don’t represent the whole population. That’s why I can ‘use them’ and you can’t.

The real difference is that the exception here doesn’t show that skilled players aren’t more rewarded. In fact, your example of RNG FAVOURS skilled players because skilled players get more opportunities for RNG to work in their favour than unskilled ones. The actual event of good loot form RNG is equal for a skilled or unskilled player, or a group of them, but skilled player get many more opportunities because they are more efficient.

rng is not the exception it is the rule in this game

It’s not even relevant if that’s true or not: Skilled players are more rewarded than unskilled ones even if you want to include RNG. Try again.

Try what again?

Dunno, but your trying really hard to do it by making so many posts that are irrelevant or don’t make sense.

You mean the ones that point out where you counter yourself?

You’re off track here:

I made the point that skilled players are more rewarded than unskilled ones, based on extra opportunities skilled players get that unskilled ones don’t. You seem to believe this isn’t the case and provided RNG as an example. RNG is just as relevant to my point for the same reason: extra opportunities gained by skilled players.

I thought it was about inflation…ie gold. What did you think it was about?

That’s a little obtuse. As a reminder to where this started, here is your response to one of my posts:

Essence Snow.3194:

Gold is not a rewarding reward for a lot of players. It’s a secondary result of going for desired rewards. That’s where this game misses the mark. It believes gold is the best reward.

You’re talking about rewards and how gold ‘ranks’ as a reward. I’m just following the flow of the discussion and disagreeing with you because Anet has done many things to show they believe Gold isn’t the best reward in all game aspects; it’s simply another reward. If you want to bring in back to inflation because you have nothing more relevant to say about how player skills relate to rewards that aren’t only gold, go ahead. I’m sure it will be a significant contribution to the thread if you do.

Obtena.7952:

That’s a little obtuse. As a reminder to where this started, here is your response to one of my posts:

Essence Snow.3194:

Gold is not a rewarding reward for a lot of players. It’s a secondary result of going for desired rewards. That’s where this game misses the mark. It believes gold is the best reward.

You’re talking about rewards and how gold ‘ranks’ as a reward. I’m just following the flow of the discussion and disagreeing with you because Anet has done many things to show they believe Gold isn’t the best reward in all game aspects; it’s simply another reward. If you want to bring in back to inflation because you have nothing more relevant to say about how player skills relate to rewards that aren’t only gold, go ahead. I’m sure it will be a significant contribution to the thread if you do.

Gold being the go to reward fuels inflation.