Guild Wars 2

phys.7689:

Behellagh.1468:

silvermember.8941:

Behellagh.1468:

So we went from discussing inflation back to the old standby of “fair” earning per hour.

If Wanze makes a ton of money per week from players not willing to be smart about buying and selling on the TP, good for him.

but it is not fair because for some reason video games specifically MMO have always been a bastion of fairness.

[sardonic]

I think it’s more EGO self gratification. Only LEET players with SKILZ should earn the most and get the best items. Therefore displaying them proudly on your character is proof of your greatness. Any game play that opposes that is a sign of the game being broken. Allowing players to buy such an item with earnings from sources that aren’t rewards from being a LEET player with SKILZ tarnishes the rep of that item which in turn diminishes their use as symbol of a players greatness.

So therefore it burns their buns when a player can earn money doing an activity that doesn’t highlight SKILZ. But it turns out that it’s because these LEET players are actually the ones throwing their “excess” gold to those who understand how to gather it for themselves on the TP.

So sure, your skills rescued the Queen in record time but all that loot you simply dumped onto the TP as fast as possible (kitten error selling bug slowing you down), well a TP master was able to turn a profit on them because you couldn’t be bothered to spend the 5 minutes earning it yourself. It’s the age old Brains vs Brawn rivalry. And like the tech industry in the real world, brains win. And this ticks off brawn to no end.

i dont believe every reward should be focused on leet player with skills, but they should have some things that you can best obtain by reaching that level. I think that ideally, they would reward different players diffierently appropriate to their chosen playstyles, and have the rewards get better as you progress in that content, whether that be through leet skills, time put in, or ingenuity.
An even more ideal structure would some how reward players for adding value to the game, but that would be complex to design.

But to the point of the thread, rare items will always be expensive with this system, and will generally move out of reach until the people with greater resources get theirs first, essentially lowering demand. It doesnt have to be inflation for this to occur. In fact such items can go up in value even while general earning and many other items stay the same or maintain their value.

This is basically the way this system will express itself given the right circumstances.

How do you define a leet player? Everything in PvE can be accomplished either by persistence or by following a guide some better player has made for you. The point being there is no such thing as some leet level.

So how exactly do you define leet?

Just like in life, wealth favors the lucky and the most intelligent, it doesn’t reward the foot soldier, it never can because being a foot soldier is a matter of following a guide presented to you by dulfy. If you give everybody something, you end up giving them nothing.

Anyways, your suggestions will never really work unless they completely get rid of player’s laziness or lack of foresight which is the driving force behind the fastest way to acquire gold.

These weren’t suggestions silvermember. I’m making fun of the notion brought up time and time again that raking in money on the TP is somehow unfair to those that “play the game”.

The countless threads wanting more ways to filter the not LEET from joining your party. The threads complaining that you can’t sell your loot on the TP fast enough to get back to your next speedrun/boss train stop. The threads that insist that the most desirable items should only be dropped from the hardest content so only those “worthy” can get them. The threads asking for super tough content. The threads asking for mounts to show off on. The threads on how the new wardrobe devalues legendary weapons allowing them to be skinned onto lesser weapons over and over again. The threads complaining how expensive it is now to get free gems to buy exclusive skins.

They all dovetail together into a picture of a player who is upset that the game is unfair to the talented player, by allowing the untalented (in their eyes) to succeed. A player who values their appearance as a way to establish their skill who gets upset because others can achieve it without the same dedication.

Maybe this goes back to WoW style repetitive raiding until you “put in your dues” and get a full set of BIS for your character, thereby establishing this notion between BIS gear and ability level. If people can buy BIS gear, or the look of BIS gear, that destroys this notion. This leads to wanting to see AP, gear stats, trait picks, etc of other players because you can’t simply look at and judge. It leads to threads where players are upset that other players are earning more doing activities that they see as not core gameplay, ie bopping things on the head.

And some of these notions have popped up in this thread as well. That wealth is “unfairly” distributed across the player base. That it’s the wealthy’s fault that prices go up and that gems cost so much now. And how did they get so wealthy? Well it must be because they are filthy flippers who control the market and ratchet prices up just to see if they can. “Burn him, he’s a flipper!” hysteria.

I’m neither LEET or a flipper. I simply enjoy playing an hour or two and I feel that I earn enough for what I want. I’m patient. I place bids if I want something or price my own sell orders to sell off the night’s haul. 99.9% of everything sells in 24 hours and I’m earning 10-20% on top of those who sell to highest bidder. These are observations from reading this and the GW2 Discussion board.

I’m not suggesting fixes because I don’t see a problem. If the price spikes the first thing I check is it’s chart to see what supply and demand did. I don’t call every bubble inflation. Is there inflation? Yes. But it’s not what’s happening 9 out of 10 times someone drops that word.

silvermember.8941:

How do you define a leet player? Everything in PvE can be accomplished either by persistence or by following a guide some better player has made for you. The point being there is no such thing as some leet level.

So how exactly do you define leet?

Just like in life, wealth favors the lucky and the most intelligent, it doesn’t reward the foot soldier, it never can because being a foot soldier is a matter of following a guide presented to you by dulfy. If you give everybody something, you end up giving them nothing.

Anyways, your suggestions will never really work unless they completely get rid of player’s laziness or lack of foresight which is the driving force behind the fastest way to acquire gold.

actually life many times favors the foot soldier. Life varies, sometimes the strong rule, some times the smart, some times the resilient, some times the lucky.
As far as following the guide, that has to do with planning, its easier with a guide, but sometimes it still takes skill and planning to execute, some times the guide doesnt work for you. I will admit in this game right now, there is little challenging content but thats a different thread.

Anyhow the key to my ideal situation is to reward different kinds of progress with rewards that fit that style of play.

People who love being social be more social, and get social type rewards, the more social they are, the more rewards they have access to. (progress in being social = social rewards)
People who love organizing events, get more and better tools, are able to reach more people, etc. get better at organizing successful events, get more tools with which to do it, and more incentives to get pople involved.
People who love doing dungeons get access to more dungeons, and dungeon skills/traits/options and dungeon related loot
people who love doing dynamic events get dynamic event trackers, dynamic event plotlines, back stories, and can start new unique dynamic events. Npcs throughout the world know them, and they get karma boosts, and access to enhanced movement in open world, etc.

so on and so forth, as far as whats leet? that can be determined by the players, all the designers have to do is have different levels for people to surpass, for some content it would be about numbers, for others it might be player appreciation, for others it might be beating harder content.

And what is gold for? well its to trade some of the things you get easily for the things obtained for things you dont like doing, or dont do well. As long as people make progress towards things they enjoy, they are usually happy.

But i realize this will not happen, the game isnt going to have that much of a drastic change.
The system we have is as is, and it will have its pluses and minuses, one of them is saving for big expensive items probably wont work out too well if your income isnt past a certain point.

Behellagh.1468:

These weren’t suggestions silvermember. I’m making fun of the notion brought up time and time again that raking in money on the TP is somehow unfair to those that “play the game”.

The countless threads wanting more ways to filter the not LEET from joining your party. The threads complaining that you can’t sell your loot on the TP fast enough to get back to your next speedrun/boss train stop. The threads that insist that the most desirable items should only be dropped from the hardest content so only those “worthy” can get them. The threads asking for super tough content. The threads asking for mounts to show off on. The threads on how the new wardrobe devalues legendary weapons allowing them to be skinned onto lesser weapons over and over again. The threads complaining how expensive it is now to get free gems to buy exclusive skins.

They all dovetail together into a picture of a player who is upset that the game is unfair to the talented player, by allowing the untalented (in their eyes) to succeed. A player who values their appearance as a way to establish their skill who gets upset because others can achieve it without the same dedication.

Maybe this goes back to WoW style repetitive raiding until you “put in your dues” and get a full set of BIS for your character, thereby establishing this notion between BIS gear and ability level. If people can buy BIS gear, or the look of BIS gear, that destroys this notion. This leads to wanting to see AP, gear stats, trait picks, etc of other players because you can’t simply look at and judge. It leads to threads where players are upset that other players are earning more doing activities that they see as not core gameplay, ie bopping things on the head.

And some of these notions have popped up in this thread as well. That wealth is “unfairly” distributed across the player base. That it’s the wealthy’s fault that prices go up and that gems cost so much now. And how did they get so wealthy? Well it must be because they are filthy flippers who control the market and ratchet prices up just to see if they can. “Burn him, he’s a flipper!” hysteria.

I’m neither LEET or a flipper. I simply enjoy playing an hour or two and I feel that I earn enough for what I want. I’m patient. I place bids if I want something or price my own sell orders to sell off the night’s haul. 99.9% of everything sells in 24 hours and I’m earning 10-20% on top of those who sell to highest bidder. These are observations from reading this and the GW2 Discussion board.

I’m not suggesting fixes because I don’t see a problem. If the price spikes the first thing I check is it’s chart to see what supply and demand did. I don’t call every bubble inflation. Is there inflation? Yes. But it’s not what’s happening 9 out of 10 times someone drops that word.

really it comes down to incentives, Some people play games to get good, it annoys them that the best way to succeed in this game is not to do that. I do feel it detracts somewhat not to have incentives to improve. But regardless, the reasoning that a meritocracy based on game skills is not valid, why is a meritocracy based on gold earned any more valid? The cries of the Elite Skills people sound exactly the same as the leet money earners.

l2p
work harder
get good
be smarter
survival of the fittest

but now they are applying it to their own strengths. Its basically the same thing except the leet game mode isnt dungeon running, but competitive gold earning.

phys.7689:

really it comes down to incentives, Some people play games to get good, it annoys them that the best way to succeed in this game is not to do that. I do feel it detracts somewhat not to have incentives to improve. But regardless, the reasoning that a meritocracy based on game skills is not valid, why is a meritocracy based on gold earned any more valid? The cries of the Elite Skills people sound exactly the same as the leet money earners.

l2p
work harder
get good
be smarter
survival of the fittest

but now they are applying it to their own strengths. Its basically the same thing except the leet game mode isnt dungeon running, but competitive gold earning.

1st people always misinterpret “survival of the fittest”. They believe it applies to some kind of gladiatorial combat instead of who is most fittest to the environment. In that case if you judge accumulation of gold as the selector, then talented flippers are clearly the winner of “survival of the fittest”. Probably also winner of “be smarter” too.

But it still boils down to this false idea that gold is the only measure of success in this game and therefore the pursuit of it is the sole goal that any normal player should playing toward. Why? Is it because players are too cheap to spend cash for gem shop items? That enjoy playing doesn’t count for some reason?

And if they rank acquiring gold so high, then why do they throw away so much potential wealth by selling to the highest bidder? Why do they ignore the costs of waypointing to do the boss train if that depletes their daily income by 1/2 g or more a day? They complain about rewards but ignore the hole in their purse.

phys.7689:

i dont even really get your point, are you contending that items with high demand, and low supply will not be marketed to the wealthy? because that is the basic premise of what i am saying.

Yes. I’m saying items are not marketed to the wealthy. You are saying the exact opposite of that as evidence by your post with the made up drop rate and how long it would take for players to supposedly all get a precursor.

phys.7689:

It is totally logical, and makes total sense within this economy, that the people with more money are the market for rare, sought after items. in previous posts you said this is normal and expected. Mathematics is about relationships, you can plug in different numbers but the relationships are the same.

There is no niche market in this game where items are specifically available for certain players. Also, nowhere did I state this and that this assumption was normal and expected. This assumption was created by you so please do not say it was from me and then twist my own argument that was against it as a way to support it.

I agree that math is about relationships between numbers. However, you’re missing the point that I was making. You created some arbitrary calculation using numbers you pulled out of the air and then passed that “relationship” as some evidence to your point. I can say that X + Y = Z to argue for argument A when X and Y have nothing to do with Z and Z also has no bearing on argument A. That’s what you did.

phys.7689:

given that it is normal and expected, if the wealth curve is constructed in certain ways, these items will be disproportionally difficult, and time consuming for regular players to get.

If 50% of the population earns 40 gold per week
and 20% of the population earns 400 gold or more per week
and an item is rare enough that only 1.8% of the population can get one per year, who do you think thats items price will be aimed at? what the 40 gold per week player thinks is fair, or what the 400+ gold player thinks is fair?

Again you’re using a made up number that you got from some arbitrary calculation that you used to pose as having a mathematical relationship with the prices or whatever. I will also point out that players only need one precursor as the legendary they create from it will have its skin saved to their wardrobe.

As far as the gold rate, yes it is fair. People who put the time and effort to earn more gold deserve the item more than though who do not. Self entitlement does not get people very far. The percentage are not set in stone and players are very easily able to earn more money if they choose.

phys.7689:

As far as having no data, JS specifically said, try to come up with reasonable logic, because we have no data, this means we have to assume things, to get a better understanding, By coming up with data, you can test your hypothesis by comparing it to data, and see how the changes in that data change the relationships. You can figure what data is the most relevant. Its pointless to say you have no data in science. You still hypothesize, then you test, or approximate, and repeat the process.

I bolded the part that you’re missing. Reasonable normally means that it’s backed up by something. Pulling something out of the air and plugging the numbers into some formula you created is not that. Especially when there’s strong economic theories that explain it. That last bit you did not do so I don’t know why you included it.

phys.7689:

With these mathematical relationships, you can then figure out at what supply would a high demand item, be able to be priced so that the people in a certain segment of the wealth gap arent the target.

Yes. But these mathematical relationships are based on proven economic theory. Something of which yours are not. Again, items in this game are not priced for a certain segment of wealthy players in this game.

phys.7689:

but to be perfectly honest, the problem is more one of philosophy, the current descsion is gold earning is the meter of success as far as itemization goes. As long as this is the case, the most desired items with low supply will always be out of the reach of most players(the ones who dont play gold focused), until the demand drops.

Gold is not the only measure of success in this game. So you’re telling me that highly desired items should be obtainable without gold?

Ayrilana.1396:

1) Yes. I’m saying items are not marketed to the wealthy. You are saying the exact opposite of that as evidence by your post with the made up drop rate and how long it would take for players to supposedly all get a precursor.

2)There is no niche market in this game where items are specifically available for certain players. Also, nowhere did I state this and that this assumption was normal and expected. This assumption was created by you so please do not say it was from me and then twist my own argument that was against it as a way to support it.

3)I agree that math is about relationships between numbers. However, you’re missing the point that I was making. You created some arbitrary calculation using numbers

4)Again you’re using a made up number that you got from some arbitrary calculation that you used to pose as having a mathematical relationship with the prices or whatever. I will also point out that players only need one precursor as the legendary they create from it will have its skin saved to their wardrobe.

5)As far as the gold rate, yes it is fair. People who put the time and effort to earn more gold deserve the item more than though who do not. Self entitlement does not get people very far. The percentage are not set in stone and players are very easily able to earn more money if they choose.

6)I bolded the part that you’re missing. Reasonable normally means that it’s backed up by something. Pulling something out of the air and plugging the numbers into some formula you created is not that. Especially when there’s strong economic theories that explain it. That last bit you did not do so I don’t know why you included it.

7)Yes. But these mathematical relationships are based on proven economic theory. Something of which yours are not. Again, items in this game are not priced for a certain segment of wealthy players in this game.

8)Gold is not the only measure of success in this game. So you’re telling me that highly desired items should be obtainable without gold?

1) in relation to your point you never said that it was the way it was supposed to be and normal in an economy:

Ayrilana.1396:

phys.7689:

but i dont think this can be avoided, we have come to a fairly unbalanced economy in terms of the haves and the have nots. Basically anything of value is marketed on top earner basis first and foremost, and they earn money faster than other people. Im not just speaking of TP barons, but anyone who is somewhat focused on the economic side of the game.

That’s in every economy and it’s supposed to be “unbalanced” in the way you stated. Just look to the real world’s economy.

i basically said, the economy is unbalanced, and everything of value is marketed to top earners, you said that is every economy, and thats the way its supposed to be. Never mind it really isnt in every economy, look at the most common basic structure of economies, families, but never mind that. *you directly said its supposed to be unbalanced the way i said, like a real world economy"

2) Yes, items are marketed towards certain players, i dont even know if its possible for them not be. it kind of happens naturally.
look at this
http://www.gw2spidy.com/recipe/6773
these items are not marketed to those who want to craft givers at a profit, they are priced for a different market. Every item has its markets, and that determines its price. I dont even know if this is debatable.
as to your second part about me making up you saying this, look at answer to number 1, i dont make up anything, if you didnt mean to present that image, thats on you, not me, but that exactly what that your response presents.

3)the relationship is not created by the numbers, the relationship is created by logical analysis, numbers are provided to give context.

(how many of an item are sold a year)/(the population of the game) = the % of population who has that item in a year.

If you are talking about a high demand item, lets represent it as the %of people who would pay something for an item. to figure out what % of the people who want the item have gotten it, you can divide that by the % of people who want the item in the population.
the % of the population who has item in a year/the % of people who want that item = the % of the population who has the item who wants that item after a year. lets call this B so i dont have to write it again

If your purpose as a seller is to get that most money for your product within a year, you will sell it at the highest price that B is willing to pay for it. essentially you dont price it for the bottom of the demand curve, because then you wont get the most money, you price it for as much as B is willing to pay.

A big factor for how much something is worth to a person is how much money they have, so now we can look at the difference in wealth to different segments of the population to see how approachable an item aimed at different groups is worth.

Lets say a player decides this item is worth 10% of my excess money in 2 months, that number is very different if what they make in two months is very different.

all of this is logic based analysis, without any numbers, i plug in numbers to make it easier to understand, and give people a context.
my value for population is severely scaled back and based on released numbers sold. If i didnt scale it back, it would look even crazier. i went from 3 million+ sold to 500,000 playing
the number for a low supplied item was based on when JS told us how many dusks sold in a time frame
the numbers for the wealth distribution are based on graphs for the US, even though i believe we our actual graph will be more harsh when comparing the top 20% to the bottom 50%.

point is, the mathematics is based on logic, the numbers, you can ask JS for those numbers and see what it brings, but i dont think that will happen.

4) i explained the that the relationships were generated logically, without numbers, then i put numbers estimated from known data to simulate the situation as i stated above. My logical representation accounts for each player only needing and wanting one precursor, it actually simplifies the relationship, so that helps.

5) once again, you as a gold focused player see it in terms of gold, why is it people who focus on gold more deserving of items than people who focus on community? or people who focus on fighting other players? people who focus on saving the game world? people who focus on exploration? What is it about focusing specifically on earning gold that makes it more valuable than spending the same time, energy, ingenuity on another facet of the game?
The answer? nothing really, but they had to decide on something. For what ever reasons they went with gold, so this is a natural result of that.

6)reasonable means that it is backed by reason, or logic, and mathematics,my relationships are reasonable.
What strong economic theories are you talking about that explain something? you talk of these strong economic theories, but you never present any. Being that my logic and mathematics is pretty simple, im pretty sure economic theory already has much of it somewhere in its thought process.

7) again i disagree, items are marketed for certain segments of the population, their different prices reflect this, as i pointed out, its why some items are not profitable to make, its because the price selected is not marketed towards people who want to use it for that purpose. You must be thinking of marketing in terms of advertisements, Im talking about figuring out who is your target demographic, and figuring out what they are willing to pay for said item. Its a very basic principle of business.

8) gold is not the only measure of success in the game, but it is by far the most targeted in terms of what you can actually obtain by achieving success.

Am i saying highly desired items should be obtainable without gold, yeah that could be viable, but notice i didnt say that you couldnt use gold to obtain it, i said it would be obtainable(in a reasonable fashion) without gold. As an example, in another game, they had big hard to kill world bosses, they had some drops that could be sold, so you had two choices, gather and kill this big hard to kill boss, and sell the drop, or make enough money that the people who could kill this thing thought it was worth it for them to sell it to you. There was another drop, that you could get more of based on how well you played a certain instance, that was an ingredient for one of the super long term best items, so you could either buy it, or get good at that instance and play it again and again.
Its not really a foreign concept.

Due to the rng nature of drops in this game, that type of thing isnt really an option. Many of the goods come to the market by accident.

Behellagh.1468:

These weren’t suggestions silvermember. I’m making fun of the notion brought up time and time again that raking in money on the TP is somehow unfair to those that “play the game”.

The countless threads wanting more ways to filter the not LEET from joining your party. The threads complaining that you can’t sell your loot on the TP fast enough to get back to your next speedrun/boss train stop. The threads that insist that the most desirable items should only be dropped from the hardest content so only those “worthy” can get them. The threads asking for super tough content. The threads asking for mounts to show off on. The threads on how the new wardrobe devalues legendary weapons allowing them to be skinned onto lesser weapons over and over again. The threads complaining how expensive it is now to get free gems to buy exclusive skins.

They all dovetail together into a picture of a player who is upset that the game is unfair to the talented player, by allowing the untalented (in their eyes) to succeed. A player who values their appearance as a way to establish their skill who gets upset because others can achieve it without the same dedication.

Maybe this goes back to WoW style repetitive raiding until you “put in your dues” and get a full set of BIS for your character, thereby establishing this notion between BIS gear and ability level. If people can buy BIS gear, or the look of BIS gear, that destroys this notion. This leads to wanting to see AP, gear stats, trait picks, etc of other players because you can’t simply look at and judge. It leads to threads where players are upset that other players are earning more doing activities that they see as not core gameplay, ie bopping things on the head.

And some of these notions have popped up in this thread as well. That wealth is “unfairly” distributed across the player base. That it’s the wealthy’s fault that prices go up and that gems cost so much now. And how did they get so wealthy? Well it must be because they are filthy flippers who control the market and ratchet prices up just to see if they can. “Burn him, he’s a flipper!” hysteria.

I’m neither LEET or a flipper. I simply enjoy playing an hour or two and I feel that I earn enough for what I want. I’m patient. I place bids if I want something or price my own sell orders to sell off the night’s haul. 99.9% of everything sells in 24 hours and I’m earning 10-20% on top of those who sell to highest bidder. These are observations from reading this and the GW2 Discussion board.

I’m not suggesting fixes because I don’t see a problem. If the price spikes the first thing I check is it’s chart to see what supply and demand did. I don’t call every bubble inflation. Is there inflation? Yes. But it’s not what’s happening 9 out of 10 times someone drops that word.

+10 to that.

I’m so sick and tired of the people here that seem to want another EQ-Style game here where only 0,5% of the player can get the currently best items so that they can show up how leet they are .. and of course (even if they always say they are not interested in non-raid content) can farm all lower content waaaaay much better.

I’m somebody who really play a lot, but since i simply hate raiding i was always somebody who simply “hasn’t earned it” to get the better stuff.

I came to GW2 exactly for the reason that i can get here best armor and most skins without beeing forced to do raids in any way. And i really wish all these elitist kinds of players would leave and go to Wildstar or whatever instead of bringing the devs to give us things like ascended and Teq 2.0

Beldin.5498:

Behellagh.1468:

These weren’t suggestions silvermember. I’m making fun of the notion brought up time and time again that raking in money on the TP is somehow unfair to those that “play the game”.

The countless threads wanting more ways to filter the not LEET from joining your party. The threads complaining that you can’t sell your loot on the TP fast enough to get back to your next speedrun/boss train stop. The threads that insist that the most desirable items should only be dropped from the hardest content so only those “worthy” can get them. The threads asking for super tough content. The threads asking for mounts to show off on. The threads on how the new wardrobe devalues legendary weapons allowing them to be skinned onto lesser weapons over and over again. The threads complaining how expensive it is now to get free gems to buy exclusive skins.

They all dovetail together into a picture of a player who is upset that the game is unfair to the talented player, by allowing the untalented (in their eyes) to succeed. A player who values their appearance as a way to establish their skill who gets upset because others can achieve it without the same dedication.

Maybe this goes back to WoW style repetitive raiding until you “put in your dues” and get a full set of BIS for your character, thereby establishing this notion between BIS gear and ability level. If people can buy BIS gear, or the look of BIS gear, that destroys this notion. This leads to wanting to see AP, gear stats, trait picks, etc of other players because you can’t simply look at and judge. It leads to threads where players are upset that other players are earning more doing activities that they see as not core gameplay, ie bopping things on the head.

And some of these notions have popped up in this thread as well. That wealth is “unfairly” distributed across the player base. That it’s the wealthy’s fault that prices go up and that gems cost so much now. And how did they get so wealthy? Well it must be because they are filthy flippers who control the market and ratchet prices up just to see if they can. “Burn him, he’s a flipper!” hysteria.

I’m neither LEET or a flipper. I simply enjoy playing an hour or two and I feel that I earn enough for what I want. I’m patient. I place bids if I want something or price my own sell orders to sell off the night’s haul. 99.9% of everything sells in 24 hours and I’m earning 10-20% on top of those who sell to highest bidder. These are observations from reading this and the GW2 Discussion board.

I’m not suggesting fixes because I don’t see a problem. If the price spikes the first thing I check is it’s chart to see what supply and demand did. I don’t call every bubble inflation. Is there inflation? Yes. But it’s not what’s happening 9 out of 10 times someone drops that word.

+10 to that.

I’m so sick and tired of the people here that seem to want another EQ-Style game here where only 0,5% of the player can get the currently best items so that they can show up how leet they are .. and of course (even if they always say they are not interested in non-raid content) can farm all lower content waaaaay much better.

I’m somebody who really play a lot, but since i simply hate raiding i was always somebody who simply “hasn’t earned it” to get the better stuff.

I came to GW2 exactly for the reason that i can get here best armor and most skins without beeing forced to do raids in any way. And i really wish all these elitist kinds of players would leave and go to Wildstar or whatever instead of bringing the devs to give us things like ascended and Teq 2.0

These 2 hit it on the head, and Anet has included fight specific rewards like the Teq Weapons or specific minis. So go get your leet gear and rewards.

phys.7689:

6)reasonable means that it is backed by reason, or logic, and mathematics,my relationships are reasonable.
What strong economic theories are you talking about that explain something? you talk of these strong economic theories, but you never present any. Being that my logic and mathematics is pretty simple, im pretty sure economic theory already has much of it somewhere in its thought process.

Well I was going to respond to your posts until I read the bolded part above. It shows that you do not know much about economics, did not make an effort to look, nor read (or comprehended/remembered) what I was posting. This explains why this is just going in circles and why, against my better judgment, should have ducked out of this thread long ago.

So with that, this thread is yours and you can do what you wish with it.

Ayrilana.1396:

phys.7689:

6)reasonable means that it is backed by reason, or logic, and mathematics,my relationships are reasonable.
What strong economic theories are you talking about that explain something? you talk of these strong economic theories, but you never present any. Being that my logic and mathematics is pretty simple, im pretty sure economic theory already has much of it somewhere in its thought process.

Well I was going to respond to your posts until I read the bolded part above. It shows that you do not know much about economics, did not make an effort to look, nor read (or comprehended/remembered) what I was posting. This explains why this is just going in circles and why, against my better judgment, should have ducked out of this thread long ago.

So with that, this thread is yours and you can do what you wish with it.

good day sir

Bombsaway.7198:

John:

Let me respectfully call you out on your answer as being well intentioned but IMHO misguided. Without getting into a credentialing match, I think both of us have had our share of economics, analytics and theoretical modeling. I am shall we say amazed by your answer.

I struggle with your answers as if somehow an MMO can be looked at as an economy when there are no actual limitations (you can simply change them on a moment’s notice by whatever delta of change your choose). Hence, the economy is less economic and more of a loyalty tool (a sophisticated CRM if you will).

Indeed, CRM/loyalty is the only purpose of that “economy”.

This is why I find your posts utterly frustrating, because they warp the economics of a real resource constrained system with a game that has no such restrictions. In doing so, you focus on somewhat senseless charts versus gamer expectation, perception and ultimately interest which is a far better measure of if the “economy” is working.

In short, this quest for “efficiency” is meaningless despite its “correlation” to economic theory IF it doesn’t accomplish the goal of loyalty/fun/name it what you will. The only thing the economic model can do (if well marketed) is create a “sense” of fairness.

The perception of inflation is more important than the reality in an MMO. The segmentation of that perception of inflation if it leads to a frustration or a “I can’t progress” attitude won’t change because your charts say it is wrong. The net result is the same.

If the goal is to create a sense or perception of fairness, but increasingly there is a trouble or “sense” that the “economy” is “off” even if only to one or more key customer segmentations, the mission is a failure despite pie charts and line graphs.

You keep trying to prove things are not as they seem to the customer. I wish you would quit telling posters to “learn economics”. Trust someone who clearly has, you are chasing the wrong issue. You are using an unfamiliar language to most of your consumers of the game to mask a very simple consumer issue:

To many it simply feels, right or wrong, that the economy is “boxing them out”. “Proof” is not going to replace the need to fix the perception. I dare say the customer and OP is far more “right” than you are. In an MMO, it matters not if you are economically disenfranchised, it only matters if you feel disenfranchised.

In short, I would be very hesitant to jump in and alter the conversation that the OP had. The value is the discussion over whether the “economy” “feels fair or different” rather than overwhelming the poor OP telling him to learn economics which may truly stifle the very conversation as a consumerologist I would suggest ANET would definitely want.

You mean well. I hope you realize I do too with this post.

The symbiotic connection between morale and market can not exist without a rational economic ecosystem and I dare any economic ecosystem to not try being rational.

Talk about meaning too well

John Smith.4610:

LordByron.8369:

You are wrong.
There are some reasons why inflation coesn t take in account value of alpacas in France.

For the same reason should not take in account all the stuff that has almost no (real) demand.

While T6, Precursors, lodestones, gems, etc etc etc should be the best indicators.

@Wanze… i won t answer since i don t find most of your comments “useful”.

First off, there is a huge amount of demand for alpacas, they’re pretty awesome.

Short and sweet:
If you think inflation is a major issue in Guild Wars 2, you should do more research on MMO economies and general economics.

When applied to economic ecosystems, the terms ‘inflation’ and ‘deflation’ apply to the direction in change of state of the system parity between available currency and energy available to do work.

I am going to use analogies to demonstrate currency at work. Analogies can not be complete descriptions of complex abstract systems and should always be approached defensively.

Currency is to an economic ecosystem
as
Electron Flow is to the real world electric grid, from power plant to toaster

The analog is true enough to demonstrate the role of inflation. If power plants decreased the output of electrons, work would slow down.

Real world economies struggle to maintain an efficient work slope for system parity and the will to work is provided by just humans.

How would Valhalla handle currency when every deceased Viking gains access to pedal and coin powered Star Trek replicators?

None of what I said changes the truth that a system rational Tyrian gold is a luxury currency and Precursors are a good index for Tyrian gold.

The price of Precursors describe the nature and nurture of luxury.

opened edit but made no changes

Psientist.6437:

None of what I said changes the truth that a system rational Tyrian gold is a luxury currency and Precursors are a good index for Tyrian gold.

The price of Precursors describe the nature and nurture of luxury.

+1,000,000,000!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yep. Just like how yachts, mansions, Bugatti’s, Louis Vuitton purses, and so on are good indicators of our economy. You are so right. It makes so much sense that items in a small segment of a market would reflect the entire market as a whole. I finally can see the light! Hallelujah!!!

Ooh. Ooh. I just finished reading some rad articles that just blew my mind. They were so far out. I don’t think my life will ever be the same now. Life altering, man.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/134576/virtual_economic_theory_how_mmos_.php?print=1

http://www.investopedia.com/university/inflation/

http://www.clevelandfed.org/research/Data/US-Inflation/cpi.cfm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_index

http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottdecarlo/2013/09/18/cost-of-living-extremely-well-index-the-price-of-the-good-life/

‘Yachts, mansions, Bugatti’s, Louis Vuitton purses, and so on’ are not Tyrian system rational equivalents to Precursors.

You make Bugattis out of Yugos with information not work.

In Tyria everyone has access to all the supply lines, material and information,for Real World rational luxury goods equivilant to a national space program. Tyrians just need to pay or pedal. Which is awesome, Thank you Tyria.

The work load we would generally index for a single currency rational system would be indexed against karma in Tyria.

Again, Thank you Tyria

edited for syntax
edit The work load we would generally index for a single currency rational system would find parity with Tyrian Karma.

It would be easier to answer what a mirror is to a kitten than answer what luxury in Tyria is,

Psientist.6437:

‘Yachts, mansions, Bugatti’s, Louis Vuitton purses, and so on’ are not Tyrian system rational equivalents to Precursors.

Nuh uh! They are like, um, so are too! They’re all rare goods that are not a necessity AKA luxury goods. They’re also items that are part of a small segment in an overall market.

Psientist.6437:

You make Bugattis out of Yugos with information not work.

Say whaaaaaat? I r confused. /sadface

Psientist.6437:

In Tyria everyone has access to all the supply lines, material and information,for Real World rational luxury goods equivilant to a national space program. Tyrians just need to pay or pedal. Which is awesome, Thank you Tyria.

Pedal? You mean we can exercise to get luxury goods? Awesome! I’m going to be so swimming in luxury goods. Speaking of swimming, if they ever give us player housing, I’m like so going to buy a luxury pool and then host pool parties. Just cover your eyes when you see those Norn in speedos. Not a pretty sight. I’m super cereal.

You cannot produce precursors. They are gained by luck through drops are playing in the mystical toilet. Until they can be crafted, there’s really no supply line. Most players will likely not see them from either source but instead purchase them off the TP. Like in the real world, if people want to afford these items, they just need to do activities that award enough currency to eventually purchase these items. It’s actually much easier to do this in the game as it’s much more simplified and less time consuming.

Psientist.6437:

The work load we would generally index for a single currency rational system would be indexed against karma in Tyria.

Again, Thank you Tyria

Tyria thanks you for your patronage. It’s people like you that keeps the world running and our land free of the crab people and Manbearpig. The latter being more unholy and dangerous than Zhaitan on an bad hair day.

Please define rational. I think there’s a language barrier as your usage of rational doesn’t make much sense. Karma fluctuates based on event, boosts, participation, and completion status. There’s also all of those nifty karma consumables. The currency based on karma does not make much sense as doing events has no bearing on karma.

Psientist.6437:

edited for syntax
edit The work load we would generally index for a single currency rational system would find parity with Tyrian Karma.

No.

Ayrilana,

Rationality is a very abstract concept and definitions (analogies) for it are treacherous. A good start would be to define rationality as remaining system rational. When presented with two systems be sure the systems are similar before using ‘how something works in one system’ as ‘how something works in all systems’.

a treacherous analogy applied to the Tyrian/Earth supersystem

Tyria is to Earth
as
Player is to State
as
Precursor is to plutonium

So… umm… yeah. How exactly can a definition to something refer back to itself?

Treacherous? Really? The dictionary had no problem.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/rationality

Ayrilana.1396:

Psientist.6437:

‘Yachts, mansions, Bugatti’s, Louis Vuitton purses, and so on’ are not Tyrian system rational equivalents to Precursors.

SNIP!

edited for syntax
edit The work load we would generally index for a single currency rational system would find parity with Tyrian Karma.

No.

Please show your work behind that ‘No.’

Will an ‘economic ecosystem’ using one currency express the same ‘currency valuation landscape’ as an ‘economic ecosystem’ using 3 currencies?

While Baseball and American Football share the common definitions of physics (gravity, motion, etc), they express very different scoring landscapes.

Your proof for that ‘no’ will demonstrate how to score a touchdown on a baseball diamond.

Psientist.6437:

Ayrilana.1396:

Psientist.6437:

‘Yachts, mansions, Bugatti’s, Louis Vuitton purses, and so on’ are not Tyrian system rational equivalents to Precursors.

SNIP!

edited for syntax
edit The work load we would generally index for a single currency rational system would find parity with Tyrian Karma.

No.

Please show your work behind that ‘No.’

Will an ‘economic ecosystem’ using one currency express the same ‘currency valuation landscape’ as an ‘economic ecosystem’ using 3 currencies?

While Baseball and American Football share the common definitions of physics (gravity, motion, etc), they express very different scoring landscapes.

Your proof for that ‘no’ will demonstrate how to score a touchdown on a baseball diamond.

Read my comment above what you quoted. I said no because it was wrong and I had already answered it.

I also want to add this.

John Smith.4610:

xxxzavulonxxx.8413:

Noerknhar.3826:

I think it’s fair to judge inflation on the items that are worth to think about in end game. Maybe the precursor example is a bit limiting, but it’s the best example for what i meant to say

You would be entirely incorrect in an economic standpoint.

Inflation is measured by the price levels of goods people buy regularly, not the price tags on private jets or other “endgame” goods people buy when they’re extremely wealthy.

This is correct, you cannot measure inflation by luxury goods, or by a single good, or by the several other assumptions you’re making (sell orders represent sales?).

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/bltc/Help-I-don-t-understand-gem-supply-concept/first#post1539660

John Smith.4610:

The lost shores event was not the only modification to precursors.

We’re tracking the changing economy. The changed prices come from a lack of supply relative to demand, not from a substantial increase in inflation (this is apparent when you look at the TP as a whole bundle of good rather than just a few items).

There is a vast difference between pointing to a dictionary and writing a book.

John Smith describes how to build an index when measuring the effects of a single currency economic ecosystem. Tyria employs a triple currency economic ecosystem.
In the quote you posted, John Smith is not describing the Tyrian economic ecosystem.

An index discovers where and how a currency behaves most efficiently. Tyrian Karma is most efficiently used to cover the workload of everyday needful things in Tyria up to and including Exotic level gear. Tyrian Gold is most efficiently used to cover the workload of luxury goods.

edit.

The principle difference between single and multi-currency economic ecosystems is the effect of selection bias when calculating and applying competitive currency efficiency.

Here’s a little gem that John gave earlier. Some people just throw around words like “inflation”, without knowing or understanding the proper meaning. Because the word has some negative connotations associated with it, people use it to try and prove points based on fallacies.

John Smith.4610:

I think the problem here is two separate arguments are being made that shouldn’t be made at the same time.

1. Inflation is increasing prices drastically and causing a series of negative outcomes.
A. This simply isn’t true. Inflation is very, very well controlled in gw2.

2. T6 prices are too high, the material drops are too rare.
A. There are arguments that can be made here on both sides that I think are valid. (I know this is really frustrating so I apologize for the generic response) I can’t give my opinion on either side for fear of shocking those markets which won’t be positive either way. What I can say is that it’s something we watch, there’s always room for improvement, and we will continue to work to make the game better.

For me, an interesting part of the ‘index discussion’ is that we technically don’t need an index. Because we can view the Tyrian economic ecosystem from the outside, we can measure system totals for available currency and workload. When John Smith says inflation is not a critically dangerous issue for Tyria, I do believe him.

Only players need an index, a way of measuring the efficiency of ‘their’ currency. When measuring the efficiency of our currency holdings, should we ignore the fact that our currencies have native efficiency when finding parity with workload?

edit:
I think current Precusor pricing demonstrates the compounding effects of low supply/high demand and a maturing (amount and efficiency of application) supply of Tyrian gold. I see Precursors selectively saving the effects of inflation over deflation.

When considering the accuracy of this statement; keep in mind, that we want Tyria to offer us Legend and we are responsible for nurturing that Legend.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but, doesn’t less farming places/methods equate to lower gold/gem conversion rate?
Less gold, less gems bought, gems cost less.

Nick.6972:

Correct me if I’m wrong, but, doesn’t less farming places/methods equate to lower gold/gem conversion rate?
Less gold, less gems bought, gems cost less.

I do not see that as the desired outcome. I have not run the theory explicitly, but my instincts reject a lower gem cost as the desired or even necessary outcome.

John Smith?

when I apply this analog to the Tyrian economic ecosystem rationale (all kittens can chase and catch the Legend of Lazer pointing):

Arbitrated Competition is to The Economic Ecosystem
as
AC Bias is to The Recording, Transmission, and Playback of Music

i see the obvious lack of a playable DC economic signal

edited for clarity

Nick.6972:

Correct me if I’m wrong, but, doesn’t less farming places/methods equate to lower gold/gem conversion rate?
Less gold, less gems bought, gems cost less.

gems may cost less with less money in the market, however, its not as big an issue as you think, whats important is how hard you have to work for them, and what you are giving up when give up your gold.

but honestly i think the rate is more effected by demand of gem store items, versus demand of gold items. Gem store costs are rising at a higher rate than inflation, primarily because gold is seen as less valuable and gem store items as more valuable compared to what it once was.

Oh yeah, and gold sellers are messing up the equation by being competition for your product as gold—>gem seller, and messing up anet profits, by allowing people to directly cash out, instead of giving the money back to the gem store.

they essentially cause the prices gold→gem to rise by making the exchange feel like there are less people who desire gold, which also helps them by allowing them to charge more since the official source is charging more, and makes their product look more attractive.

Alright, I’ll briefly take this thread seriously again to respond to a few of your points.

Psientist.6437:

There is a vast difference between pointing to a dictionary and writing a book.

Yes, however we’re talking about the usage of a single word. You do not need a book to define that word.

Psientist.6437:

John Smith describes how to build an index when measuring the effects of a single currency economic ecosystem. Tyria employs a triple currency economic ecosystem.
In the quote you posted, John Smith is not describing the Tyrian economic ecosystem.

I don’t belief you have a grasp yet on currencies and their impact on an economy. In the real world you have hundreds, if not more, currencies all of which can be used to purchase any good. Granted, you’ll have to be mindful of the exchange rates. In Tyria, each currency other than gold is very limited to what it can be used for.

An index how the price level of a certain range of selected goods behaves over a period of time. That’s it. If you have an index of all precursors then it will show you how the prices of the precursor market have behaved over a period of time. You can do the same for just about anything. However, when it comes to measuring inflation, you have to take a very broad and general look across all items in the economy. Most often, you’re looking at goods that people commonly buy.

An index is still very much valid with multiple ways to acquire items. I suggest reading up on indexes rather than try to strike something down because of perceived mismatches in economies. To often I see people people attack where a widely accepted principle is being used based on the differences of where it’s used when knowledge of that principle would show that it very well does indeed apply.

Psientist.6437:

An index discovers where and how a currency behaves most efficiently. Tyrian Karma is most efficiently used to cover the workload of everyday needful things in Tyria up to and including Exotic level gear. Tyrian Gold is most efficiently used to cover the workload of luxury goods.

I bolded part of your quote above. It’s wrong for two reasons. An index does not determine how efficient a currency is. You’re just comparing how prices were at this point in time to another. That’s not efficiency. The second reason is that an index only shows how a currency is based on what’s listed in the index. You cannot base an entire currency on an index for luxury goods. I’ve stated this several times.

Karma does not cover the work load for everyday needs. You cannot buy berserker armor, runes, sigils, weapons, food, sharpening stones, and many other things. Karma can only buy a very few things. None of which covers the everyday needs. Karma is also much more difficult to amass than gold. Likely, by the time you get enough karma to purchase armor with karma, you could have easily gotten it with gold. The same goes with dungeon tokens due to the rewards nerf.

Tyrian gold is not used for just luxury goods for reason already stated.

EDIT:

Also, what’s with this ecosystem concept? I do not see anything about it other than someone’s book where they tried to relate the economy to a biological ecosystem.

Psientist.6437:

For me, an interesting part of the ‘index discussion’ is that we technically don’t need an index. Because we can view the Tyrian economic ecosystem from the outside, we can measure system totals for available currency and workload. When John Smith says inflation is not a critically dangerous issue for Tyria, I do believe him.

Players cannot measure any of that from the outside. The price indices only measure price from one period in time to another. That’s all. The whole thread was about the prices of precursors. If you’re referring to Anet not needing it then yes.

Psientist.6437:

Only players need an index, a way of measuring the efficiency of ‘their’ currency. When measuring the efficiency of our currency holdings, should we ignore the fact that our currencies have native efficiency when finding parity with workload?

Like in my previous post, price indices do not measure efficiency. Workload can vary and people can make vast amounts of gold with little work.

Ayrilana, please stop stabbing the pig and trying to convince us that the pig is singing.

The DC signal can fit within a 2 type currency channel. Type 1 could be as numerous as needed and would behave as Bitcoin. Type 2 would compile comparative advantage internally and maintain relative to type 1 landscape.

“why not bounce”
is to
Legendary Heroic Parity
is to
ding-a-lings ping-a-ling-ing ping-alant-ing-ian-ism

release the Kritten

please accept the atypical nature of how I communicate.
very big abstracts
not enough words
extreme social anxiety

edited for clarity ;p

Psientist.6437:

Ayrilana, please stop stabbing the pig and trying to convince us that the pig is singing.

The DC signal can fit within a 2 type currency channel. Type 1 could be as numerous as needed and would behave as Bitcoin. Type 2 would compile comparative advantage internally and maintain relative to type 1 landscape.

“why not bounce”
is to
Legendary Heroic Parity
is to
ding-a-lings ping-a-ling-ing ping-alant-ing-ian-ism

release the Kritten

please accept the atypical nature of how I communicate.
very big abstracts
not enough words
extreme social anxiety

edited for clarity ;p

Stop with the nonsensical analogies that show you have no idea what you’re talking about and just hope to confuse people to the point that they give up.

I swear it’s like trying to use the book How a Puppy Lost it’s Way and compare it to the industrial revolution. Cookies to those that get the reference.

Psientist.6437:

Ayrilana, please stop stabbing the pig and trying to convince us that the pig is singing.

The DC signal can fit within a 2 type currency channel. Type 1 could be as numerous as needed and would behave as Bitcoin. Type 2 would compile comparative advantage internally and maintain relative to type 1 landscape.

“why not bounce”
is to
Legendary Heroic Parity
is to
ding-a-lings ping-a-ling-ing ping-alant-ing-ian-ism

release the Kritten

please accept the atypical nature of how I communicate.
very big abstracts
not enough words
extreme social anxiety

edited for clarity ;p

People don’t have to accept aberrant behavior
pseudo-intellectual
composition 101
aspergers is real

Psientist.6437:

Ayrilana, please stop stabbing the pig and trying to convince us that the pig is singing.

The DC signal can fit within a 2 type currency channel. Type 1 could be as numerous as needed and would behave as Bitcoin. Type 2 would compile comparative advantage internally and maintain relative to type 1 landscape.

“why not bounce”
is to
Legendary Heroic Parity
is to
ding-a-lings ping-a-ling-ing ping-alant-ing-ian-ism

release the Kritten

please accept the atypical nature of how I communicate.
very big abstracts
not enough words
extreme social anxiety

edited for clarity ;p

Did you roll asura? Because all I see here is technobabble

He’s actually just trolling and has been for awhile.

If you looked at all of his incoherent posts, notice how he has “edited for clarity” at the bottom? His post history also shows that he normally makes rational posts.

Edited for clarity.

Actually to be honest here I think Deflation is occurring because the game is just boring…at least until JULY FIRST I CANT WAIT; until then I TP FLIP. Also just because Jhon Smith says something, doesn’t mean he’s correct; he alone didn’t make the game.

He has direct access to all of the data. His job is a lead analyst which includes managing and studying the GW2 economy. I think he’s well qualified and more qualified than anyone else on the status of the GW2 economy.

Ayrilana.1396:

He has direct access to all of the data. His job is a lead analyst which includes managing and studying the GW2 economy. I think he’s well qualified and more qualified than anyone else on the status of the GW2 economy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superseded_scientific_theories

http://blog.chron.com/sciguy/2010/11/the-top-10-most-spectacularly-wrong-widely-held-scientific-theories/

any body can be wrong, even cool people who have studied for years. Not saying whether he is wrong, but the idea that he is a guy who is educated and employed does not make him infallible or always correct.

phys.7689:

Ayrilana.1396:

He has direct access to all of the data. His job is a lead analyst which includes managing and studying the GW2 economy. I think he’s well qualified and more qualified than anyone else on the status of the GW2 economy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superseded_scientific_theories

http://blog.chron.com/sciguy/2010/11/the-top-10-most-spectacularly-wrong-widely-held-scientific-theories/

any body can be wrong, even cool people who have studied for years. Not saying whether he is wrong, but the idea that he is a guy who is educated and employed does not make him infallible or always correct.

Those are theories though and not based on how someone used them. For you to use that in saying he’s wrong would be to imply that current economic theory is wrong as well as current methods on analyzing data. There’s a difference between using something incorrectly versus using something that is inherently incorrect. However, I do see what you are arguing towards and agree that not everyone is infallible.

Edit: I’ll also add that I wasn’t saying he was or wasn’t incorrect. I was just saying that he’s more qualified, and able, to analyze the state of the economy than any of us.

*edited for clarity

Lukyromero.6780:

Actually to be honest here I think Deflation is occurring because the game is just boring…at least until JULY FIRST I CANT WAIT; until then I TP FLIP. Also just because Jhon Smith says something, doesn’t mean he’s correct; he alone didn’t make the game.

Wait….

If we consider the game as a balloon; inflation describes the balloon growing and deflation would describe the balloon shrinking?!?!?

I would prefer a growing, inflating to bursting game!

Hrmmm…

we may have to put up with inflating precursors if we want to be superheroes in Tyria
but we really could use a meaningful way to discover them

edit for Tree

I grew up with just enough to be primary translator for more no mock here

It’s odd though that the posts from April 4th of this year and earlier make complete sense and the writing structure is consistent.

There’s about a two month gap and the writing structure is completely different. It’s as if there’s two different people who have posted on that account. Hmmm.