Guild Wars 2

You already charge us to post an item for sale.
Please, whoever else agrees with me support this thread

I do not agree.

MMOs need gold sinks. So no.

I will agree if it works only for me. Not for you all

This game already has gold sinks. (ex: Teleporting, Armor Repair)
The 15% makes crafting pretty much non profitable.

It’s not that. It’s the fact that you can post stuff you come across directly from your bag to the TP. This needs to be killed and then the “1c more than vendor” prices will disappear.

More like, people need to be made aware of the 10% tax when you sell your item, not just the 5% listing fee.

Tom Gore.4035:

It’s not that. It’s the fact that you can post stuff you come across directly from your bag to the TP. This needs to be killed and then the “1c more than vendor” prices will disappear.

No, this needs to remain. The 5% to post an item is in place people because people would just use the TP as storage, posting things for a thousand gold, knowing no one would ever be able to buy it and when they got back to town just take down the item.

ShadowbaneX.6273:

Tom Gore.4035:

It’s not that. It’s the fact that you can post stuff you come across directly from your bag to the TP. This needs to be killed and then the “1c more than vendor” prices will disappear.

No, this needs to remain. The 5% to post an item is in place people because people would just use the TP as storage, posting things for a thousand gold, knowing no one would ever be able to buy it and when they got back to town just take down the item.

I think many people miss the point here.
The reason so many people post for 1 copper above merchant value is that they don’t know any better.
I suspect that some players may be willing to sacrifice the list price to get it out of their inventory from the middle of a zone.

However, I think that while the listing fee may be simple enough, the overwhelming majority of players don’t realize that the 5% list price is followed by another 10% when it sells. I sure didn’t pick up on it right away.

Do you know why?

The game never tells you. You can only find out by “counting your change” and double-checking the math upon pickup, or by reading the complaints of others.

The real problem here isn’t simply fees. The problem is hidden fees, and I hope that will be corrected in the very near future. Not necessarily by the removal of any fees, but at the very least, by a more transparent (or visible) tax notification.

The 15% ‘tax’ is a good thing.

The market interface that doesnt show the tax is incredibly stupid.

Black Lion is like those credit card and mobile phone companies with all the hidden fees. Yeah it’s not right. Anet needs to at least warn players there’s a 10% charge on successfully sold items. Most player’s don’t know this and are short changing themselves instead of just vendoring their items.

It’s also extremely difficult to make any money from crafting. At 400 armorsmith I should be able to buy all my mats on the TP, craft an item, and sell for a small profit. Can I do this? No. Besides the 15% fees I think the main problem is the worldwide market, it’s so saturated that there is always more supply than demand on virtually every item.

“Hello, thank you for calling Black Lion Prime Credit, this is Peggy…”

I understand the functional need for the fees but I always say boo for hidden fees. Just add a subtotal to the sale notification to reflect the fees. Transparency is good.

The listing fee is fine and serves a useful purpose. The hidden 10% sales tax is a real problem though since still a large proportion of players are not aware of it AND it hinders players, crafters and traders in making a profit.

Personally I would remove the sales tax but keep the listing fee – HOWEVER I would apply the listing fee to buy orders as well in order to prevent the market speculation that we are seeing. There, 2 problems solved, one simple solution.

Rather like to be able to see how much I would be taxed after the sales. I need to calculate it by myself.

Or you know, you could do it simpler… it simply states how much of a cut it’s going to take when the item is sold. You guys are slightly over thinking it when all it needs to be done is simply a “bump” down in the interface next to the listing fee. You could call it an transaction fee or whatever. Regardless, not much needs to be changed other than putting it in the trading post interface when you are selling a item how much you will be charged when the item is sold.

The 15% tax should not go but I do agree that hiding information like charges from a customer is extremely bad business practice and cannot believe ANet have had the cheek to do this and let it go on for so long.

I picked up on it faily quick but it is like me getting paid and my boss taking £50 out my paycheck without even informing me. That kitten is not cool!

Although this seems to be a policy somewhat, don’t inform the consumer. We have anti farm code we are not informed of, karma diminishes we are not informed of, patch changes we are not informed of. It’s like the gaming Illuminati I tell you.

Icegrx.4697:

This game already has gold sinks. (ex: Teleporting, Armor Repair)
The 15% makes crafting pretty much non profitable.

There are three types of gold sinks:
– One off sinks. As in, once a character has used them, they don’t get paid again. Eg the commander icon in WvW. Useless for the long term health of the economy, though they do have other uses.
– Fixed rates. Players use them regularly, their cost stays fixed, so they sink coin at a fixed rate (eg waypoints, repairs). A rate which will be less than the rate of coin production as balancing it exactly is impossible, and having it sink more coin than is being created leaves everyone too broke to use the sink (lowering its effectiveness), meaning inflation is only slowed down. But not stopped.
– Sales taxes. As inflation happens, prices rise. So these sink more coin. Slowing inflation. Eventually prices hit a point where the tax is sinking coin faster than it’s being created, causing deflation and lowering prices. So you get a cycle of inflation and deflation.

The sales tax is the most effective long-term sink, because it is the only one that stops inflation. The rest only slow it.

Though hiding the tax is simply unacceptable.

TL;DR most of them, but yes the tax should be explicitly stated somewhere.

There are definitely enough sinks in the game already. When I log in, my end goal is to have more money then when I started. Half of the time, I lose money by playing. Seriously? What am I doing wrong? How does one even make money.

Don’t sell at a loss? Calculate the 15% tax or get the android app that does it for you. Also, if you really want to save money don’t use way points or use them sparingly and buy tools with karma.

If they want 15% total transaction tax that is fine. Like most others in this thread have mentioned they need to make it appear at the front of the deal and not leave the plebs guessing.

The first time i used the TP to sell something i was not what i would call plus’d when i noticed i got taxed on the sale total as well. Dutch door action FTL >:(

When you have to limit your fast travel, and actively avoid death as much as i feel like i am having to do to get anything like ahead in this game money wise, i personally wouldn’t mind if they loosened up the games purse strings a touch. But only just a little mind you!

Being defeated and paying for both repairs and teleport should trump this motion.

Icegrx.4697:

There are definitely enough sinks in the game already.

So remove one of the other gold sinks instead of targeting the one that is most effective against inflation.
I’d suggest getting rid of repair and/or waypoint costs.

Leave it alone. The tax is fine.
Now we just need people to start selling stuff at a more realistic price.
Not 1 silver of a level 0-1 item
and not 23 copper for a level 26 item

I must add that in recent days I have seen a more realistic pricing for many of the level 0-1 items.
Even though there are still some that are WAY over priced.

Krosslite.1950:

Leave it alone. The tax is fine.
Now we just need people to start selling stuff at a more realistic price.
Not 1 silver of a level 0-1 item
and not 23 copper for a level 26 item

I must add that in recent days I have seen a more realistic pricing for many of the level 0-1 items.
Even though there are still some that are WAY over priced.

Well realistic pricing is going to happen either way. If there is a limited supply of 0-1 level items it’s because realistically, there is very few people getting and selling those items.

It’s all supply/demand and it changes daily and fluxes depending upon what people do. The economy is much like a real life stock market as it’s affected by what people do in the game. (much like if we buy gas or other various products, all of those things affect the stock market).

redcuce the tax for selling to 5 or 10% and create a tax for buying (5-10%)

most annoying on the 15% tax is that anet still didnt manage to make it public that its not just 5% as claimed.
i bet that there are houndretthousands of casuals just trading themselve broken over time, cause they just dont get it…

What do you guys mean 10% sales tax is not public knowledge?
Just type
/wiki trading post
in game and read the third line. That is pretty much on the level of your eyes when you open the page.
Its not hidden, ya guys just weren’t looking for any info before you started to rush into things.
Reminding of the 10% sales tax every time you sell something would: a) Look dumb on the GUI, b) Be rather annoying

The 15% effective tax rate is the only money sink that will stabilize the value of gold long-term.

Things like waypoint costs are more or less totally irrelevant to that end.

Fred Fargone.3127:

What do you guys mean 10% sales tax is not public knowledge?
Just type
/wiki trading post
in game and read the third line. That is pretty much on the level of your eyes when you open the page.
Its not hidden, ya guys just weren’t looking for any info before you started to rush into things.
Reminding of the 10% sales tax every time you sell something would: a) Look dumb on the GUI, b) Be rather annoying

Yeah, everyone goes and reads wikis of the game before playing it.

Information not available easily, such as, on the actualkittenauction house interface or in game that any noob can see it = a lot of people don’t know about it.

I disagree. Of all the gold sinks, it is the one that makes the most sense to me, because it is directly connected to making money. Waypoint and repair costs need a nerf, but not trade taxing.

The 15% tax should be more clearly identified/explained to players, though.

Fred Fargone.3127:

What do you guys mean 10% sales tax is not public knowledge?
Just type
/wiki trading post
in game and read the third line. That is pretty much on the level of your eyes when you open the page.
Its not hidden, ya guys just weren’t looking for any info before you started to rush into things.
Reminding of the 10% sales tax every time you sell something would: a) Look dumb on the GUI, b) Be rather annoying

If by “Public Knowledge” you mean “accessible to everyone”, then yes, it’s common knowledge. If you mean “something practically everyone is aware of”, no, it’s not. I for one am flabbergasted to just now learn that /wiki commands exists from in-game.
The 10% tax is not hidden, but it’s something you don’t learn of untill you do actual research (however easy that might be). Considering that the listing fee is right there in your face when you post a sale, it’s not an unreasonable assumption for the uneducated to believe this to be the only tax involved.

Personally, I noticed the 10% tax after doing some trading that I expected to generate a profit, but the profit wasn’t there.

They managed to include the 5% fee in the GUI without either looking dumb or annoying the user. I’m sure they can do something similar for the 10% tax (show the tax from currents transactions next to withdrawable amount under completed transactions?)

The 15% is not the problem. The minimum amount is the issues. It should be raised to 20% above vendor value instead of 1 C above vendor value.

The waypoint cost could also be lowered.

I somewhat agree with the OP but I think we need more time to evaluate exactly how this tax effects the economy. I don’t think it needs to go away altogether but I am leaning toward it being too high at the moment.

My gut reaction is that it seems like it will in the long term stifle interaction and interdependancy between players. Why would I go to a jewelry crafter who needs to offset prices by 15% just to break even when I can easily enough level jewel crafting myself.

Because the cost to trade is SO high I am better served by avoiding the market altogether on those items that I can acquire or combine on my own. There is absolutely no market for “pushing combine” and thus tradeskills are not useful to level as a money maker but only to avoid losing money from the trading post for items you may need.

Overtime I really think most players will come to the conclusion that they are better off avoiding the trading post altogether if they can. I don’t think this is apparent just yet because, as has been mentioned in this thread, a great deal of the players posting aren’t precisely aware of the tax and how high it actually is.

@MrGorkajuice

Well, while you might feel like the information is hidden, I do not. While I might feel like having even more information crammed in the GUI that wasn’t designed for that would look ugly, you might not.
So I guess our opinions differ.

However, the simple fact remains that even though there are currently scores of people who do not know about the sales tax, most of them are not interested in using TP for profit anyways. And those who are, will quickly learn even if its not stuffed to their face every time they’re making transactions.
(As we can see, most of the people here didn’t know, noticed and learned.)

However, maybe add some Trading Post tutorial NPC somewhere near the TP in LA, so people who are unsure can get the info in game, if they can’t be bothered to do a simple search.

To be honest, iFail to understand the need for any extra info in the TP GUI.
If you want to argue about whether “Practically everyone knows”… Well, I’d say if we look at the people who actually use the TP for buy & sell, yeah, “practically everyone knows”. If we take your average player who just doesn’t care about the TP, maybe occasionally throws in some equipment because he can’t bother to vendor it, no, they don’t know about it.
Why pester the guys who do care for the sake of the people who don’t? Keep it simple, keep it efficient.

Trevien.9236:

The 15% is not the problem. The minimum amount is the issues. It should be raised to 20% above vendor value instead of 1 C above vendor value.
…

And how exactly it will solve problem of oversupply?

Maxster.4521:

Trevien.9236:

The 15% is not the problem. The minimum amount is the issues. It should be raised to 20% above vendor value instead of 1 C above vendor value.
…

And how exactly it will solve problem of oversupply?

I do not believe that I was talking about any issue other than the minimum listing amount needs to be raised to account for the 15% cut that will go to the trading post. Over supply on the AH is another issue entirely and one that I do not really care about. As it stands more profit is made from vendoring items instead of posting them on the trading post do to the fact that people do no pay attention to the cost that items are put up for. Raising the minimum post amount to 20% above vendor value will allow people to actually make money when posting items. As it stands right now I would rather vendor them.

Other options would be to limit the number of items people can have on the AH (not an idea I like but would prevent people from using the TP as a 2nd bank as I have heard is done). Or taking a larger cut when unsold items are pulled off the market, like 30% of list value (again, not an option I like, but targets the same group of people). Personally, I think raising the minimum amount is the best option… it will not fix the real issue with this specific concern, again, I do not care about what people consider oversupply, which is that people just blindly put things up for minimum amount as a form of storage while out doing other things.

yes let’s kill the gold sink so money can pour into the game and TOTALLY destroy gem prices

Trevien.9236:

Maxster.4521:

Trevien.9236:

The 15% is not the problem. The minimum amount is the issues. It should be raised to 20% above vendor value instead of 1 C above vendor value.
…

And how exactly it will solve problem of oversupply?

I do not believe that I was talking about any issue other than the minimum listing amount needs to be raised to account for the 15% cut that will go to the trading post. Over supply on the AH is another issue entirely and one that I do not really care about. As it stands more profit is made from vendoring items instead of posting them on the trading post do to the fact that people do no pay attention to the cost that items are put up for. Raising the minimum post amount to 20% above vendor value will allow people to actually make money when posting items. As it stands right now I would rather vendor them.

How exactly people will get profit, if there is no demand for an item? That will solve nothing at all.

Other options would be to limit the number of items people can have on the AH (not an idea I like but would prevent people from using the TP as a 2nd bank as I have heard is done). Or taking a larger cut when unsold items are pulled off the market, like 30% of list value (again, not an option I like, but targets the same group of people). Personally, I think raising the minimum amount is the best option… it will not fix the real issue with this specific concern, again, I do not care about what people consider oversupply, which is that people just blindly put things up for minimum amount as a form of storage while out doing other things.

First solution not very good.
Second is complete fail. Adding to already high cost of listing item(5%) 30% more – no one will use TP then.
Limiting listing items number, and allowing to increase that limit by using gold – would be better.

As for oversupply – if you change minimum amount – it will be same picture, just other price. No one will buy that anyway. Also, no one will store something, that has no value.
And if item has value, it could be bought by someone.

Trevien.9236:

people just blindly put things up for minimum amount as a form of storage while out doing other things.

I don’t believe this actually ever happens. While people are out doing other things, they might dump stuff at the minimum value to get it out of their inventory and eventually get some copper later (though less than if they sold it to a vendor). I highly doubt anyone is using it as a bank (with the intent of using those items later), and I definitely refuse to believe that’s what the one-copper-over-vendor-price listers are doing, seeing as their items will sell first.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/10g6m6/do_people_completely_ignore_the_tp_listing_fee/

We can see there that people use it to just empty bags

what Trevien said.
Yes they are using it as a garbage can.
What needs to be done for this issue is not remove the tax, but add another tax.
One that is hurts the pocket book of those that do this.
In another thread I suggested that after 20 day in the TP. they are sent a warning (maybe at about day 15) that if they do not remove the item it will be returned to them at vendor cost.
EXAMPLE:

selling to vendor cost 15 copper.
person listed it for 16 copper.
they let it stay there for 20 day. Even after receiving the warning.
At that time the item is either returned to them or destroyed, but 15 copper is removed from their money as well.

Yes, I know people use it as a garbage can. I was denying that people use it for storage.

Icegrx.4697:

You already charge us to post an item for sale.
Please, whoever else agrees with me support this thread

This is a complaint without a solution. Why is your complaint more valid than anyone else’s?

I read the thread and you offered no solutions throughout.

If you are not making money, then you are either dying too much or not maximizing your revenue stream.

Here’s how I make money. Let’s assume you have a full inventory of goods.

1. I always carry crude salvage kits. They are cheap and if you start getting enough karma you can buy them from the weaponsmith trainer in Lion’s Arch.
2. I go to a merchant and instantly sell every green and blue over 40c that I cannot use. I also sell the junk using the handy button at the bottom.
3. Sell all white items over 25c.
4. Use crude kit to salvage all white items 24c or less.
5. Stow all collectibles.
6. If I have any yellows I check the price on the TP and then sell it. This is almost guaranteed to net me more than if I had sold it to a vendor.

I have no problems making money using this algorithm. Give it a shot. You’ll end up with valuables to sell [from salvaging] or to use in crafting to offset the costs.

Ensign.2189:

The 15% effective tax rate is the only money sink that will stabilize the value of gold long-term.

Things like waypoint costs are more or less totally irrelevant to that end.

Let’s see the math, spreadsheet and data points that authorizes this statement.

I’m fairly certain you don’t have it.

I’m fairly certain that ANet does.

Trevien.9236:

The 15% is not the problem. The minimum amount is the issues. It should be raised to 20% above vendor value instead of 1 C above vendor value.

The waypoint cost could also be lowered.

Raising the minimum amount will cause people to “profit” and then it will cause the price of EVERYTHING to raise in a correlation that is impossible to compute but it’s generally known as inflation.

It may give you warm fuzzies but then you’ll be asking for 30% while having solved nothing overall, unfortunately.

One thing though
I dont mind the tax thing
BUT
if you canceled an item that you’re selling on TP, Please allow FULL REFUND…

Yashino.5713:

One thing though
I dont mind the tax thing
BUT
if you are to cancel an item that you’re selling on TP, Please allow FULL REFUND…

Krosslite.1950:

what Trevien said.
Yes they are using it as a garbage can.
What needs to be done for this issue is not remove the tax, but add another tax.
One that is hurts the pocket book of those that do this.
In another thread I suggested that after 20 day in the TP. they are sent a warning (maybe at about day 15) that if they do not remove the item it will be returned to them at vendor cost.
EXAMPLE:

selling to vendor cost 15 copper.
person listed it for 16 copper.
they let it stay there for 20 day. Even after receiving the warning.
At that time the item is either returned to them or destroyed, but 15 copper is removed from their money as well.

Punishing people for their behavior is not an effective form of behavior modification for the most part except in rarer circumstances. Rewarding them for doing the desired behavior is more effective.

Your solution is to punish people for doing something you don’t like. They already took a 5% cut by using the TP as temporary storage. If they are storing at 1c over vendor they are taking a chance that someone will actually purchase it. If that happens they’ve lost 10% but that was a chance they took.

The reward of using the TP as storage is balanced against the risk of losing an extra 10% should they use the vendor+1c method and their item sells.

However, the stated problem is erroneous. If the issue is the vendor+1c and not being able to profit, then look somewhere else to profit. If a good is selling @ vendor + 1c… you wouldn’t profit off of it anyway – it isn’t valued at more than that in the first place. :P

Yashino.5713:

One thing though
I dont mind the tax thing
BUT
if you canceled an item that you’re selling on TP, Please allow FULL REFUND…

Completely removing risk by allowing a full refund will cause a distortion in people’s behaviors as they will be able to move in and out of the TP at will without having to put anything up for it.

John Smith won’t allow it.

Dishconnected.8360:

Trevien.9236:

The 15% is not the problem. The minimum amount is the issues. It should be raised to 20% above vendor value instead of 1 C above vendor value.

The waypoint cost could also be lowered.

Raising the minimum amount will cause people to “profit” and then it will cause the price of EVERYTHING to raise in a correlation that is impossible to compute but it’s generally known as inflation.

It may give you warm fuzzies but then you’ll be asking for 30% while having solved nothing overall, unfortunately.

Actually the only thing I am looking for is for the TP to be useful and not be used as a garbage bin for people too lazy or too busy to locate a vendor. Right now it is useless for selling crafted items or random drops. When more money is made vendoring these items than actually trying to sell them on the TP, this makes crafting worthless.