Guild Wars 2

Whats with legendaries atm? I was just taking a look at twilight. It costs just shy of 3000 gold to make. But its selling on the TP for only 3500 gold. Add in the other “non gold” costs such as karma and badges that can be turned into gold in other ways and your barely breaking even. And thats before the 15% sales tax. As far as I can see, you would be making a loss on this weapon right now.

You’re likely going off sell order prices.

Ayrilana.1396:

You’re likely going off sell order prices.

Im going off lowest listing for everything, including the twilight.

nirvana.8245:

Ayrilana.1396:

You’re likely going off sell order prices.

Im going off lowest listing for everything, including the twilight.

Calculate all of the costs of each component for a legendary using the buy order price. Your 3,000 is going off of what it would cost to buy everything immediately.

I have it at 2,761 to make with a profit of 340.85 gold if sold for 3,650.

340g profit not worth to craft

you can make this or more alone with the 300 skillpoints you need for a legendary

You also have to keep in mind that legendary crafting is a lengthy process, meaning that the legendaries being sold today might have been crafted with yesterday’s (cheaper) material prices.

Romek.4201:

340g profit not worth to craft

you can make this or more alone with the 300 skillpoints you need for a legendary

Making a legendary can be less time consuming that converting skill points into gold.

I think a better subject than some off-hand observation about this is SHOULD players be able to craft and make a profit off the highest end weapons in the game?

Obviously, Anet isn’t stopping this pursuit, but is the OP suggesting that Anet should do something to ENSURE it’s profitable? Seriously?

Also, is this a TP issue or a crafting one (a bit of both)?

Romek.4201:

Ayrilana.1396:

Romek.4201:

340g profit not worth to craft

you can make this or more alone with the 300 skillpoints you need for a legendary

Making a legendary can be less time consuming that converting skill points into gold.

thats 3th or 4th post you answer me which show you dont have a clue what you even talk about.
so please ……

Uh huh. It can take more time to convert skill points to gold (done through material promotions) than it would be to craft legendary weapons. The additional time is time you could have spent doing other things such as farming gold.

I’ve converted skill points and I’ve crafted legendary weapons. I settled on legendary weapons because it’s much less time consuming and involved as I can just place buy orders and forget about it until the orders are filled.

Ayrilana.1396:

Romek.4201:

Ayrilana.1396:

Romek.4201:

340g profit not worth to craft

you can make this or more alone with the 300 skillpoints you need for a legendary

Making a legendary can be less time consuming that converting skill points into gold.

thats 3th or 4th post you answer me which show you dont have a clue what you even talk about.
so please ……

Uh huh. It can take more time to convert skill points to gold (done through material promotions) than it would be to craft legendary weapons. The additional time is time you could have spent doing other things such as farming gold.

I’ve converted skill points and I’ve crafted legendary weapons. I settled on legendary weapons because it’s much less time consuming and involved as I can just place buy orders and forget about it until the orders are filled.

and again ….

this thread is about legendarys and it need more than only skillpoints and someone would burn 1mio karma + 1x world compelte + 500 dungeon tokens + alot other stuff just to sell his 300 skillpoints? Really? all this for some lil time difference? i dont think anyone on this planet could be this stupid.

Romek.4201:

Ayrilana.1396:

Romek.4201:

Ayrilana.1396:

Romek.4201:

340g profit not worth to craft

you can make this or more alone with the 300 skillpoints you need for a legendary

Making a legendary can be less time consuming that converting skill points into gold.

thats 3th or 4th post you answer me which show you dont have a clue what you even talk about.
so please ……

Uh huh. It can take more time to convert skill points to gold (done through material promotions) than it would be to craft legendary weapons. The additional time is time you could have spent doing other things such as farming gold.

I’ve converted skill points and I’ve crafted legendary weapons. I settled on legendary weapons because it’s much less time consuming and involved as I can just place buy orders and forget about it until the orders are filled.

and again ….

this thread is about legendarys and it need more than only skillpoints and someone would burn 1mio karma + 1x world compelte + 500 dungeon tokens + alot other stuff just to sell his 300 skillpoints? Really? all this for some lil time difference? i dont think anyone on this planet could be this stupid.

You’d get about 80 gold or so by converting 1m karma. You’d get about 847 gold by converting promoting assuming you get 2.5 gold per sp. Promoting takes a lot of time and effort which i have been stating but you keep ignoring. This time spent promoting could be used to farm gold.

It takes like 100 stacks of tier 1 mats to produce like 30 stacks of tier 2 at a cost of 20 sp. do you realize how much time this takes and how much time it would take to convert ~339 sp?

Obviously I’m going under the assumption that thy already have the karma, world completion, and skill points. They need these to make a legendary just like they need skill points to convert them to gold.

Edit:

Going off the assumption that for 20 skill points, you convert 100 stacks of tier 1 to 35 stacks of tier 2. That’s 25k tier 1 to 8,750 tier 2.

To convert ~340 sp aould require 1,700 stacks (425,000) tier 1 and produce 595 (148,750) tier 2. How much time do you think you would spend trying to buy up all of the materials (not considering wait time)? How much time would it take to promote everything? How much time would you have to spend trying to sell 595 stacks?

You’re quick to insult people that do not agree with your opinion. You say people are stupid for not converting sp directly through promotions instead of crafting legendary weapons. People have their own reasons (many of which are legit) for why they choose to go the legendary route and you have no ground to insult them for it.

to convert 339SP worth of refined T1 -> T2 mats would require 1,695 stacks of T1 refined. 423,750 bronze ingots. there are 53,075 supplied right now. This would take you at least a year to buy order, by which time you will likely need another 1,695 stacks. Then you would have about 590 stacks of T2 refined mats to sell, which would also take a year to offload.

If twilight doesn’t give you the profits you want, make a different legendary. this is why all the legendaries vary in price – one goes down, people stop making it and make another instead, until the other goes down and the first is made again. If they all are down, people stop making them and their price goes back up.
Currently the highest profit legendary is: The Flameseeker Prophecies. “why?”, you may ask? well, it has no sell listings, so someone could list it at 5000g and make a 2300g profit [when it sold] if they wanted The next-highest is is currently Brifrost at a 821g profit.

BiFrost used to have a 1K+ profit margin but that went down due to rising tier 6 material costs (I think it was around 150G increase) while BiFrost selling price remained the same.

Ayrilana.1396:

Romek.4201:

340g profit not worth to craft

you can make this or more alone with the 300 skillpoints you need for a legendary

Making a legendary can be less time consuming that converting skill points into gold.

Nice troll post.

It takes me 10 minutes time investment every day to convert 5 skillpoints into +15g profit every day.

Wanze.8410:

Ayrilana.1396:

Romek.4201:

340g profit not worth to craft

you can make this or more alone with the 300 skillpoints you need for a legendary

Making a legendary can be less time consuming that converting skill points into gold.

Nice troll post.

It takes me 10 minutes time investment every day to convert 5 skillpoints into +15g profit every day.

Check out my other posts please.

Mystic.5934:

to convert 339SP worth of refined T1 -> T2 mats would require 1,695 stacks of T1 refined. 423,750 bronze ingots. there are 53,075 supplied right now. This would take you at least a year to buy order, by which time you will likely need another 1,695 stacks. Then you would have about 590 stacks of T2 refined mats to sell, which would also take a year to offload.

Since the last feature patch (14 days ago), i spent 109 skillpoints to promote bronze ingots, thats 545 stacks.
I usually get copper ore on buy order though, as it moves faster.
I also didnt have buy orders active all the time, so i could have easily gotten way more within those 2 weeks.

I finish the gift of fortune half a year ago. Mostly for investment. I think those are just people in similar situation as me. So they end up selling the legendary cheap, since there are many competition.

Ayrilana.1396:

Wanze.8410:

Ayrilana.1396:

Romek.4201:

340g profit not worth to craft

you can make this or more alone with the 300 skillpoints you need for a legendary

Making a legendary can be less time consuming that converting skill points into gold.

Nice troll post.

It takes me 10 minutes time investment every day to convert 5 skillpoints into +15g profit every day.

Check out my other posts please.

I did.

I put in buy orders for at least 12.5k copper ore every day, 50 stacks, that takes me 2 min.
Once they filled, i go buy 1250 lumps of tin and refine them, takes 3 min, while my toon is crafting, i usually browse the tp or salvage for 2 min.
then I promote 22-23 stacks of bronze ingots in the forge, 200 clicks, takes 2 min.
List 6-10 stacks of iron ingots on the tp, another minute.

8 minutes, 15g profit, thank you very much.
340/5= 68 days
10 min for 68 days= 680 minutes or 11.33 hours and ~850 gold profit

Everybody can do what he wants with his account bound currency but I wont start crafting legendaries for a profit.

Ok.

12,500 copper ore costs 52.5 gold at 42 copper a piece.

It takes 10 copper ore to make 5 bronze ingot so you get 6,250 bronze ingots or 25 stacks.

It takes a stack of bronze ingots to get 40 iron ingots. This means the 25 stacks produce 1k iron ore or 4 stacks. I’m not sure where you got the 6-10 stacks as far as I’m aware, it’s a flat 40 iron ingot output.

So 4 stacks of iron ingots yields 35.4 gold. This is ignoring TP fees, dust, and the iron ingots used up to promote. You end up taking a loss. So how exactly do you make a profit? If it does crit or produce more, how much of the profit is attributed to the actual promotion and not the difference between buy/sell prices?

I calculated that it costs 4.2s to make 5 bronze ingots. Each bronze ingot sells for 1.08 silver which means 5 sell for 5.4s bringing a profit of 1.2s. You make a profit of 75 gold off 50 stacks. You cannot count this profit as profit you may or may not make from promotions. Again, I’m ignoring the additional costs.

Perhaps I’m missing something but it’s difficult to be thorough when I’m not at a PC using excel and half listening to the most boring and monotone presenter in the world. If I made a mistake somewhere, please point it out. I’ll rework this later when I can use a computer to make sure I did everything correctly.

Edit: Assuming I did the math incorrectly and you get 10 stacks of iron ore, you get a 88.5 gold (3.54s/ingot). Taking into consideration the 75 gold profit from bronze ingot crafting, your sp used only generated 13.5 gold.

the output is 40-200 ingots.

I spent several thousand skillpoints promoting t1 mats since the start of the year and my average profit per skillpoint is beyond 3g.

Wanze.8410:

the output is 40-200 ingots.

I spent several thousand skillpoints promoting t1 mats since the start of the year and my average profit per skillpoint is beyond 3g.

I don’t know if you saw my edit as you were probably typing as it was posted.

Let’s say you produce X amount of iron ingots using Y amount of skill points to produce a profit. How much of that profit is attributed to the profit you would have gotten from selling the bronze ingots at the current sell price instead of converting to iron ingots.

Ayrilana.1396:

Wanze.8410:

the output is 40-200 ingots.

I spent several thousand skillpoints promoting t1 mats since the start of the year and my average profit per skillpoint is beyond 3g.

I don’t know if you saw my edit as you were probably typing as it was posted.

Let’s say you produce X amount of iron ingots using Y amount of skill points to produce a profit. How much of that profit is attributed to the profit you would have gotten from selling the bronze ingots at the current sell price instead of converting to iron ingots.

There is not much profit in refining.
Apart from that, there also isnt much demand for bronze ingots at sell listing price.
If i list 2k iron ingots undercutting the lowest listing by 1 copper, it will sell considerably faster than 6k bronze ingots at 1c under lowest listing ,if the bronze ingots sell at all.

I’ll try to explain this again and please correct me if I do the calculations wrong.

Let’s assume the following:

• 1 sp equals 5 promotions
• copper ore buy price is 42c
• bronze ingot sell price is 1s8c
• iron ingot sell price is 3s54c
• every promotion produces 200 iron ingot

Since we’re doing 5 promotions, we will need 1000 bronze ingots (5 × 250). To craft a bronze ingot we need 2 copper ore since the output is 5 bronze ingots. So we need 2000 copper ore which costs 8.4 gold. The selling price of bronze ingots is 1s8c and we produced 1000 so we would get 10.8 gold if we sold them. This is a profit of 2.4 gold.

We now take the 1000 ingots and use them 5 times to promote them to iron ingots. At 200 a promotion, we get 1000 iron ingots. Selling these at 3s54c would give us 35.4 gold. This is a profit of 27 gold after the 8.4 gold costs.

This brings it to a profit of 24.6 gold per skill point if you get 200 iron ingots every time. What happens if you get 40 every time? You lost 1.32 gold or 3.72 (opportunity cost). You would have to average 48 iron ingots to break even while ignoring opportunity costs. You would need an average of 62 or produce 306 iron ingots) to make an actual profit.

So how many iron ingots to you get on average from 1 sp?

Ayrilana.1396:

I’ll try to explain this again and please correct me if I do the calculations wrong.

Let’s assume the following:

• 1 sp equals 5 promotions
• copper ore buy price is 42c
• bronze ingot sell price is 1s8c
• iron ingot sell price is 3s54c
• every promotion produces 200 iron ingot

Since we’re doing 5 promotions, we will need 1000 bronze ingots (5 × 250). To craft a bronze ingot we need 2 copper ore since the output is 5 bronze ingots. So we need 2000 copper ore which costs 8.4 gold. The selling price of bronze ingots is 1s8c and we produced 1000 so we would get 10.8 gold if we sold them. This is a profit of 2.4 gold.

We now take the 1000 ingots and use them 5 times to promote them to iron ingots. At 200 a promotion, we get 1000 iron ingots. Selling these at 3s54c would give us 35.4 gold. This is a profit of 27 gold after the 8.4 gold costs.

This brings it to a profit of 24.6 gold per skill point if you get 200 iron ingots every time. What happens if you get 40 every time? You lost 1.32 gold or 3.72 (opportunity cost). You would have to average 48 iron ingots to break even while ignoring opportunity costs. You would need an average of 62 or produce 306 iron ingots) to make an actual profit.

So how many iron ingots to you get on average from 1 sp?

5×250 equals 1250, not 1000.

And the average output is somewhere inbetween 40 and 200. The wiki states 80 as average, my mileage varies a bit from that.

On average, i got enough ingots to make more than 3g profit per skillpoint.

Wanze.8410:

the output is 40-200 ingots.

I spent several thousand skillpoints promoting t1 mats since the start of the year and my average profit per skillpoint is beyond 3g.

Ingot conversion is a bit of a crap shoot for one stack but if you convert enough of them they do average much higher than minimum. I converted 8 stacks of silver ingots into gold ingots. First 4 gave me 220, next 4 gave me 605. You are dependent on the law of large numbers to achieve a favorable average yield.

12.5K of copper ore is 50 stacks.
1 stack of copper ore is 1/2 stack of Bronze Ingots so 25 stacks of bronze ingots.
I common average I’ve seen is twice minimum or 80 stated as “average yield” so 8 stacks of iron ore from 50 stacks of copper/25 stacks of bronze.

Each stack of bronze ingots cost 4s of tin.
Each promote is around 5 piles of shimmering dust or around 65c.
The 1st iron ingot is a catalyst and you set aside one to always bootstrap the process.

So copper ore is 41c each for a buy order so let’s say you are impatient so up it to 42c each. So the two stacks of ore is 2.1g plus 4 silver for tin plus 65c for shimmering dust making your cost 2.1465g for 40-200 iron ingots. Using the GW2spidy average 24 hour sell price of 3.51s per and deducting the 15% means you will get between 1.1934 – 5.9670g for your 2.1465g of investment. Means your average needs to be 72 per promote to break even. An average of 80 iron ingots per stack will give you about 6g profit per 12.5k of ore.

Due note that every copper less you pay for ore is an additional 1.25g in profit and every copper more you get from iron ingots is 0.17g of profit. The inverse is also true.

If you are just going with selling off the bronze ingots, taking no chance with the MF and bad luck the 24 average selling price is 1.08s per ingot so 2.14g (no dust needed) cost per copper stack yields a profit of 15.5s or 3.875g profit per 12.5K of ore.

The key here is to promote a lot of stacks to achieve a reasonable average, otherwise you will focus on the time when the odds weren’t in your favor and to be very aware about the cost of your mats as well as the eventual selling price. But if you get into the habit of putting in an order for mats at “your” preferred price after you post your night’s promotion, it can be a very steady income stream and that’s the point.

Behellagh.1468:

Wanze.8410:

the output is 40-200 ingots.

I spent several thousand skillpoints promoting t1 mats since the start of the year and my average profit per skillpoint is beyond 3g.

Ingot conversion is a bit of a crap shoot for one stack but if you convert enough of them they do average much higher than minimum. I converted 8 stacks of one ingot into another (trying to preserve this little corner of the forge). First 4 gave me 220, next 4 gave me 605. You are dependent on the law of large numbers to achieve a favorable average yield.

12.5K of copper ore is 50 stacks.
1 stack of copper ore is 1/2 stack of Bronze Ingots so 25 stacks of bronze ingots.
I common average I’ve seen is twice minimum or 80 stated as “average yield” so 8 stacks of iron ore from 50 stacks of copper/25 stacks of bronze.

Each stack of bronze ingots cost 4s of tin.
Each promote is around 5 piles of shimmering dust or around 65c.
The 1st iron ingot is a catalyst and you set aside one to always bootstrap the process.

So copper ore is 41c each for a buy order so let’s say you are impatient so up it to 42c each. So the two stacks of ore is 2.1g plus 4 silver for tin plus 65c for shimmering dust making your cost 2.1465g for 40-200 iron ingots. Using the GW2spidy average 24 hour sell price of 3.51s per and deducting the 15% means you will get between 1.1934 – 5.9670g for your 2.1465g of investment. Means your average needs to be 72 per promote to break even. An average of 80 iron ingots per stack will give you about 6g profit per 12.5k of ore.

Due note that every copper less you pay for ore is an additional 1.25g in profit and every copper more you get from iron ingots is 0.17g of profit. The inverse is also true.

If you are just going with selling off the bronze ingots, taking no chance with the MF and bad luck the 24 average selling price is 1.08s per ingot so 2.14g (no dust needed) cost per copper stack yields a profit of 15.5s or 3.875g profit per 12.5K of ore.

The key here is to promote a lot of stacks to achieve a reasonable average, otherwise you will focus on the time when the odds weren’t in your favor and to be very conscience about the cost of your mats as well as the eventual selling price. But if you get into the habit of putting in an order for mats at “your” preferred price after you post your night’s promotion, it can be a very steady income stream and that’s the point.

During the last week, i got copper ore as cheap as 39c and sold iron as high as 3.75s
As already mentioned, I have done this on a daily basis for 9 months now.
I know the market really well and during some days i dont order copper, while on some days, i might order 30-50k. I also dont neccesarily list all iron ingots immediately with a 1c undercut but either wait for the weekend for the price to rise or list 10-15 copper over the lowest listing.

Concerning profits from just refining copper ore into bronze ingots:
I already mentioned that you will have a hard time selling 6250 bronze ingots at 1.10s within a week, dont bother trying to sell it within a day.
I can sell 2k iron ingots (needed for deldrimor ingots) as fast as 1-2 hours, several times per day, if i wanted to.

The reason i usually only spend 5-10 skillpoints on promotions is thats the amount of skillpoints i earn per day.

Of course, I was just illustrating the difference in profit between not promoting and promoting.

And while gold is more profitable per convert from silver, but silver doesn’t drop as fast as copper or gold sell as fast (jewelry) as iron (every crafting specialty but chef).

Wanze.8410:

Ayrilana.1396:

I’ll try to explain this again and please correct me if I do the calculations wrong.

Let’s assume the following:

• 1 sp equals 5 promotions
• copper ore buy price is 42c
• bronze ingot sell price is 1s8c
• iron ingot sell price is 3s54c
• every promotion produces 200 iron ingot

Since we’re doing 5 promotions, we will need 1000 bronze ingots (5 × 250). To craft a bronze ingot we need 2 copper ore since the output is 5 bronze ingots. So we need 2000 copper ore which costs 8.4 gold. The selling price of bronze ingots is 1s8c and we produced 1000 so we would get 10.8 gold if we sold them. This is a profit of 2.4 gold.

We now take the 1000 ingots and use them 5 times to promote them to iron ingots. At 200 a promotion, we get 1000 iron ingots. Selling these at 3s54c would give us 35.4 gold. This is a profit of 27 gold after the 8.4 gold costs.

This brings it to a profit of 24.6 gold per skill point if you get 200 iron ingots every time. What happens if you get 40 every time? You lost 1.32 gold or 3.72 (opportunity cost). You would have to average 48 iron ingots to break even while ignoring opportunity costs. You would need an average of 62 or produce 306 iron ingots) to make an actual profit.

So how many iron ingots to you get on average from 1 sp?

5×250 equals 1250, not 1000.

And the average output is somewhere inbetween 40 and 200. The wiki states 80 as average, my mileage varies a bit from that.

On average, i got enough ingots to make more than 3g profit per skillpoint.

Oops. That’s a nice error to make.

I didn’t realize that there was a range so I never bothered to look at it and stuck to promoting other items. If the average output is high enough over the longterm then i guess this is something that i should consider when I next decide to make a legendary. I assume the other items have an output range too?

Note that tier 6 conversion is a lot less than tier 2 to tier 5. Otherwise that mithril ore glut would be long gone by now.

Ayrilana.1396:

Wanze.8410:

Ayrilana.1396:

I’ll try to explain this again and please correct me if I do the calculations wrong.

Let’s assume the following:

• 1 sp equals 5 promotions
• copper ore buy price is 42c
• bronze ingot sell price is 1s8c
• iron ingot sell price is 3s54c
• every promotion produces 200 iron ingot

Since we’re doing 5 promotions, we will need 1000 bronze ingots (5 × 250). To craft a bronze ingot we need 2 copper ore since the output is 5 bronze ingots. So we need 2000 copper ore which costs 8.4 gold. The selling price of bronze ingots is 1s8c and we produced 1000 so we would get 10.8 gold if we sold them. This is a profit of 2.4 gold.

We now take the 1000 ingots and use them 5 times to promote them to iron ingots. At 200 a promotion, we get 1000 iron ingots. Selling these at 3s54c would give us 35.4 gold. This is a profit of 27 gold after the 8.4 gold costs.

This brings it to a profit of 24.6 gold per skill point if you get 200 iron ingots every time. What happens if you get 40 every time? You lost 1.32 gold or 3.72 (opportunity cost). You would have to average 48 iron ingots to break even while ignoring opportunity costs. You would need an average of 62 or produce 306 iron ingots) to make an actual profit.

So how many iron ingots to you get on average from 1 sp?

5×250 equals 1250, not 1000.

And the average output is somewhere inbetween 40 and 200. The wiki states 80 as average, my mileage varies a bit from that.

On average, i got enough ingots to make more than 3g profit per skillpoint.

Oops. That’s a nice error to make.

I didn’t realize that there was a range so I never bothered to look at it and stuck to promoting other items. If the average output is high enough over the longterm then i guess this is something that i should consider when I next decide to make a legendary. I assume the other items have an output range too?

What other items?

The promotion yields 40 to 200 for tiers 2–5 and 10 to 40 for tier 6 common mats.
For fine mats its 7-40 for t2-5 and 5-12 for t6.

I was doing fine materials but this was quite some time ago so i don’t remember what i got per sp. I don’t remember it being anywhere near 3G/sp though.

Ayrilana.1396:

I was doing fine materials but this was quite some time ago so i don’t remember what i got per sp. I don’t remember it being anywhere near 3G/sp though.

It’s not anywhere close unless you are very picky about buy and sell prices. The example I gave costs you 5 SP for 6g.

Ayrilana.1396:

I didn’t realize that there was a range so I never bothered to look at it and stuck to promoting other items.

This is a big problem with the wiki that I’ve complained about and been told by the editors that (for reasons I don’t quite understand) they can’t display the range.

Eggman.1405:

Ayrilana.1396:

I didn’t realize that there was a range so I never bothered to look at it and stuck to promoting other items.

This is a big problem with the wiki that I’ve complained about and been told by the editors that (for reasons I don’t quite understand) they can’t display the range.

Right …

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Iron_Ingot#Recipes

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Iron_Ore#Mystic_Forge

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mystic_forge#Common_crafting_materials

Looks like ranges to me.

Behellagh.1468:

Eggman.1405:

Ayrilana.1396:

I didn’t realize that there was a range so I never bothered to look at it and stuck to promoting other items.

This is a big problem with the wiki that I’ve complained about and been told by the editors that (for reasons I don’t quite understand) they can’t display the range.

Right …

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Iron_Ingot#Recipes

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Iron_Ore#Mystic_Forge

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mystic_forge#Common_crafting_materials

Looks like ranges to me.

It’s the Iron Ingot (x40) which is likely throwing people off. This is what I was using today.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mystic_Forge/Material_Promotion#Metal_Ingots

Mystic.5934:

to convert 339SP worth of refined T1 -> T2 mats would require 1,695 stacks of T1 refined. 423,750 bronze ingots. there are 53,075 supplied right now. This would take you at least a year to buy order, by which time you will likely need another 1,695 stacks. Then you would have about 590 stacks of T2 refined mats to sell, which would also take a year to offload.

If twilight doesn’t give you the profits you want, make a different legendary. this is why all the legendaries vary in price – one goes down, people stop making it and make another instead, until the other goes down and the first is made again. If they all are down, people stop making them and their price goes back up.
Currently the highest profit legendary is: The Flameseeker Prophecies. “why?”, you may ask? well, it has no sell listings, so someone could list it at 5000g and make a 2300g profit [when it sold] if they wanted The next-highest is is currently Brifrost at a 821g profit.

Yeah I thought it was a bit wierd as I was under the impression that the Greatswords where the most wanted of legendarys, with bitfrost and the dreamer behind that. I recently got dusk from the forge. I hadn’t touched the forge for anything other than material promotion for about a year and a half (always hated the gambling), but had some spare tokens and thought why not. One attempt. One Dusk ^^. Don’t think I will craft it tbh. Not enough profit. Might be better to sell it and buy two smaller precursors and craft two legendaries. Or just sell it and forget about crafting legendarys and invest the gold in something else.

To those that started discussing copper ingots conversion to iron ingots. I used to do that a long time ago when it was actually profitable. When I say “actually profitable”, I mean it isn’t worth it right now.
While the range says 40-200, the most common results you’re going to get are 40-80. With the long experience I’ve had with doing this, it seems that to get above 80, it requires some kind of ‘critical’ hit and isn’t as common. So for the one saying he’s getting 3g per skill point.. well I’m not going to say it’s impossible, cause it’s certainly possible. But realistically in most cases, you’ll barely break even.

I did a google spreadsheet with this if you’re more interested in detailed numbers (draws values from gw2spidy).
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1UHOIAkpKnAeXkpq3OgGtMAXzfNjfkmvvJPwTEnDGY9g/edit?usp=sharing

All the information you’ll see on the left side (except for the ‘Total’ spots) are for for one attempt. Meaning 20% of 1 skill point. The total at the bottom and on the right side is for the full 5 attempts.
So for example, right now at the time I’m writing this. You need to receive at least ~76 Iron ingots per attempt / average to even break even (with the cost the materials were bought with, skill point used excluded). Or in the case of getting 3g per skill point, you need to get at least ~96 iron ingots per attempt / average or a total of ~480 iron ingots in five attempts (a full skill point).

To sum it up, ~80% of the time you won’t even break even and actually go with a slight loss (which means your skill point will have minus value) and not actually worth it right now if you’re even considering doing it. Unless you like to throw skill points away, then that’s your choice as a player.

Ayrilana.1396:

It’s the Iron Ingot (x40) which is likely throwing people off. This is what I was using today.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mystic_Forge/Material_Promotion#Metal_Ingots

It’s exactly that. I built a giant spreadsheet that calculates the profit/loss on every single conversion using up to the minute pricing, but it was completely wrong because I relied upon the wiki’s recipe list which shows (x40) as the result of every single promotion. Granted, the notes indicate that there is an average return, and other pages indicate it is a range, but when you go to the Material Promotion page, every single recipe explicitly states the minimum number of items, rather than the average or the range.

Behellagh.1468:

Eggman.1405:

Ayrilana.1396:

I didn’t realize that there was a range so I never bothered to look at it and stuck to promoting other items.

This is a big problem with the wiki that I’ve complained about and been told by the editors that (for reasons I don’t quite understand) they can’t display the range.

Right …

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Iron_Ingot#Recipes

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Iron_Ore#Mystic_Forge

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mystic_forge#Common_crafting_materials

Looks like ranges to me.

It’s not a universal problem throughout every single page of the wiki (which is why I don’t understand why they can’t fix it). Visit the page for the Bronze Ingot, in the recipe section you will see that in the Mystic Forge it is used to make `Iron Ingot x40`, not `Iron Ingot x40 – xN`. So depending on where a person happened to look, they may end up thinking you only get 40.

Blackwyn,

Can you post a screenshot of your spreadsheet? It’s currently not working for me as I’m getting an Excel error.

Blackwyn.8127:

To those that started discussing copper ingots conversion to iron ingots. I used to do that a long time ago when it was actually profitable. When I say “actually profitable”, I mean it isn’t worth it right now.
While the range says 40-200, the most common results you’re going to get are 40-80. With the long experience I’ve had with doing this, it seems that to get above 80, it requires some kind of ‘critical’ hit and isn’t as common. So for the one saying he’s getting 3g per skill point.. well I’m not going to say it’s impossible, cause it’s certainly possible. But realistically in most cases, you’ll barely break even.

I did a google spreadsheet with this if you’re more interested in detailed numbers (draws values from gw2spidy).
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1UHOIAkpKnAeXkpq3OgGtMAXzfNjfkmvvJPwTEnDGY9g/edit?usp=sharing

All the information you’ll see on the left side (except for the ‘Total’ spots) are for for one attempt. Meaning 20% of 1 skill point. The total at the bottom and on the right side is for the full 5 attempts.
So for example, right now at the time I’m writing this. You need to receive at least ~76 Iron ingots per attempt / average to even break even (with the cost the materials were bought with, skill point used excluded). Or in the case of getting 3g per skill point, you need to get at least ~96 iron ingots per attempt / average or a total of ~480 iron ingots in five attempts (a full skill point).

To sum it up, ~80% of the time you won’t even break even and actually go with a slight loss (which means your skill point will have minus value) and not actually worth it right now if you’re even considering doing it. Unless you like to throw skill points away, then that’s your choice as a player.

While your spreadsheet is quite accurate, your assumption that you mostly get 40-80 iron ingots back, is false.

I also dont know when you were doing your promoting but i have seen a slight increase on average since the first feature pack this year.
I have done around 3k promotions before the patch and 7k promotions after and my average was 5.6 iron ingots higher.

Blackwyn.8127:

~snip~

I guess the spreadsheet doesn’t work on my phone rather than there being an error.

Anyhow, did you include the opportunity cost when trying to find the break even? The profit you could have made by selling the bronze ingots (irregardless as to the speed that they sell) cannot be included in the profit that you make per skill point as that’s profit that you could have made without it. You’re also not including the profit you make with the differences between making bronze ingots and what it would cost to buy them off the TP.

Essentially what you’re trying to do is calculated the added value that using a skill point would bring.

I mostly agree with Wanze – promoting bronze ingots to iron ingots gives about 87.3 ingots per promotion. My research summation:
248 promotions = 62,000 starting mats = 21,653 promoted mats = 87.3105 promoted pats per promotion
this takes the iron ingots you throw into the forge into account. So on average, you will have 250 bronze ingot + 1 iron ingot, and end up with 88.3 iron ingots.

The only part I don’t agree with is his 3g/SP stated profits. I have seen it that high a few months ago, but usually it’s closer to 1.5-2g. You could increase it by buying copper/bronze when it dips, then selling iron when it peaks, but they only vary like 10c over a week, which is a difference of 3g vs. 3g34s, or 1.5g/SP vs. 1.7g/SP.
I just assume he’s being more sneaky and aggressive with buying even lower and selling even higher than I can be.

Mystic.5934:

I mostly agree with Wanze – promoting bronze ingots to iron ingots gives about 87.3 ingots per promotion. My research summation:
248 promotions = 62,000 starting mats = 21,653 promoted mats = 87.3105 promoted pats per promotion
this takes the iron ingots you throw into the forge into account. So on average, you will have 250 bronze ingot + 1 iron ingot, and end up with 88.3 iron ingots.

The only part I don’t agree with is his 3g/SP stated profits. I have seen it that high a few months ago, but usually it’s closer to 1.5-2g. You could increase it by buying copper/bronze when it dips, then selling iron when it peaks, but they only vary like 10c over a week, which is a difference of 3g vs. 3g34s, or 1.5g/SP vs. 1.7g/SP.
I just assume he’s being more sneaky and aggressive with buying even lower and selling even higher than I can be.

My average includes times where the difference was more favourable, for example when iron spiked for the blade backs.
I think at that time i had backlog of over 75 stacks of bronze ingots to pick up, which i bought between 70-80 copper and i sold my iron at over 10 silver.
And during bad times, like during the bazaar, i didnt promote anything for 3 weeks.
Thats why my average is still over 3g for the last 3 months.
I also still have 25 stacks of iron in my bank, which i sell, when prices spike again. Those ingots arent calculated in my profits yet, but by doing this, i keep my profit margin very high.

I went a head and worked out a spreadsheet showing the actual profit you would make directly from a skill point if you converted copper ore to iron ingots. I even made the assumption that you would get 99 iron ingots each promotion which is unlikely.

There are three types of profit going on here:

• Profit from the difference in the cost to make bronze ingot versus placing buy orders for them
• Profit from the difference in bronze ingot sell price versus its buy price
• Profit made directly from the promotion which uses up a skill point

Two of these you cannot use in calculating profit you get per skill point.

I have it that a single skill point nets you 4g18s75c if you have the prices in the top left corner of the linked spreadsheet and produced 99 iron ingots in each promotion. Not bad right? Just wait.

Of that amount a total of 4g5s is directly from the refinement of bronze ingots if you sold them as their selling price. Of that 4g5s, 92s50c is from the profit you made by making bronze ingots rather than place buy orders for them. The other part of that is 3g12s50c which is the difference in the sell price of bronze ingots versus their buy price.

So essentially you made 13s74c off a skill point. Pretty good, huh? Well at least you got your sweet profits quicker than you would have with bronze ingots. That’s what really counts, right? We’ll also completely ignored the fact that you won’t get anywhere near an average of 99 most likely so you’ll be taking a loss as that was the break even.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DpowRChlCJwJWL8SMOiOzT0W3Oip-GDSJDoFxKAoQxs/edit?usp=sharing

If I messed up somewhere, please share. The only mistake I saw after the fact was my formula for how I got 4.05 gold at the bottom left was that I linked the 5 to the output of 5 in the bronze ingot recipe when the output has no bearing on how many promotions you can do per skill point. It luckily still worked out the same.

Ayrilana.1396:

I went a head and worked out a spreadsheet showing the actual profit you would make directly from a skill point if you converted copper ore to iron ingots. I even made the assumption that you would get 99 iron ingots each promotion which is unlikely.

There are three types of profit going on here:

• Profit from the difference in the cost to make bronze ingot versus placing buy orders for them
• Profit from the difference in bronze ingot sell price versus its buy price
• Profit made directly from the promotion which uses up a skill point

Two of these you cannot use in calculating profit you get per skill point.

I have it that a single skill point nets you 4g18s75c if you have the prices in the top left corner of the linked spreadsheet and produced 99 iron ingots in each promotion. Not bad right? Just wait.

Of that amount a total of 4g5s is directly from the refinement of bronze ingots if you sold them as their selling price. Of that 4g5s, 92s50c is from the profit you made by making bronze ingots rather than place buy orders for them. The other part of that is 3g12s50c which is the difference in the sell price of bronze ingots versus their buy price.

So essentially you made 13s74c off a skill point. Pretty good, huh? Well at least you got your sweet profits quicker than you would have with bronze ingots. That’s what really counts, right? We’ll also completely ignored the fact that you won’t get anywhere near an average of 99 most likely so you’ll be taking a loss as that was the break even.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DpowRChlCJwJWL8SMOiOzT0W3Oip-GDSJDoFxKAoQxs/edit?usp=sharing

If I messed up somewhere, please share. The only mistake I saw after the fact was my formula for how I got 4.05 gold at the bottom left was that I linked the 5 to the output of 5 in the bronze ingot recipe when the output has no bearing on how many promotions you can do per skill point. It luckily still worked out the same.

turning something that doesnt have a big demand into something that has more demand is profit that you can only do through skill points.

the same as some cooking recipes can only be obtained through karma.

anyhow it boils down to prefered playstyle.
His style is to set up a manufacturing system whereby he buys supplies at lowest cost, and turns it into a faster moving product. Yours is apparently to make products in lower volume.

Honestly i think that discounting the earning of karma and map completion in the equation of is a legendary worth it is huge. Both cost tons of time, if you are trying to maximize profit, both times are fairly unfruitful compared to what else you could be doing to get money.

phys.7689:

turning something that doesnt have a big demand into something that has more demand is profit that you can only do through skill points.

the same as some cooking recipes can only be obtained through karma.

anyhow it boils down to prefered playstyle.
His style is to set up a manufacturing system whereby he buys supplies at lowest cost, and turns it into a faster moving product. Yours is apparently to make products in lower volume.

Honestly i think that discounting the earning of karma and map completion in the equation of is a legendary worth it is huge. Both cost tons of time, if you are trying to maximize profit, both times are fairly unfruitful compared to what else you could be doing to get money.

I disagree about that turning something that doesn’t have big demand into something that does have more demand is profit. What you are doing is sacrificing what you could be making from the skill point elsewhere in order to convert the bronze ingots into something that will sell faster. When it comes to raw profit from skill points though, converting to iron ingots is pretty lacking.

Karma has a conversion rate that you can easily calculate. Based on Mystic’s guide, buying mid-level karma gear and salvaging for scraps (after thrown into MF) provides the best rate. For most recipes though, it’s only a matter of time before you make back how much gold you lost out by using karma for them.

I personally went with legendary because it had a 2.5 gold per skill point return. Of course, I did not go through and calculate exactly what I received directly from the skill point investment. It could be the same as for iron ingots, it could be more, or it could be less. All that I was trying to point out is that skill points are not necessarily producing the amount of profit in some things as you may believe.

I may calculated out exactly what it is that each form of currency produces in regards to profit. I’m not sure how to handle world completion as it has no value. You could go by the number of hours spent multiplied by the average gold farmed per hour. On the other hand, I leveled all of my characters except for one through world completion.

Ayrilana.1396:

If I messed up somewhere, please share. The only mistake I saw after the fact was my formula for how I got 4.05 gold at the bottom left was that I linked the 5 to the output of 5 in the bronze ingot recipe when the output has no bearing on how many promotions you can do per skill point. It luckily still worked out the same.

I am done discussing this because promoting is not a complex process. I shared my info on how much profit i made on average over the last 9 months.
If you dont believe it, fair enough, go craft legendaries.

Well wanze, i just did 50 promotions. Average? 56 iron ingots. It’s not because you have precursor luck (luck that’s way to good to be normal, for average player), that you can state it as a fact that that is the rate.

Even if i believe 80 ingot are the average, and I use the best case scenarios (buy order -10c, sell order +20c), the best gold gain is 1,2g. If i use my math on it, it’s a (x56 ingots) it’s a only 30 silver.

You also don’t take into account market limitations. I see 5 people posting here about 50k stacks promotions… really? While these markets have velocity, i’m pretty sure, there’s no 300k thousands sold/bought per day, no way. Also iron ore is dipping, so why would this remain profitable? I doubt it. Seems like it ‘used to be a good source’, but some people forgot to do the math again, and now suddenly would realize it ain’t that good anymore (it should be even worse, by posting this on forums, luring more people out).

Phoebe Ascension.8437:

Well wanze, i just did 50 promotions. Average? 56 iron ingots. It’s not because you have precursor luck (luck that’s way to good to be normal, for average player), that you can state it as a fact that that is the rate.

Even if i believe 80 ingot are the average, and I use the best case scenarios (buy order -10c, sell order +20c), the best gold gain is 1,2g. If i use my math on it, it’s a (x56 ingots) it’s a only 30 silver.

You also don’t take into account market limitations. I see 5 people posting here about 50k stacks promotions… really? While these markets have velocity, i’m pretty sure, there’s no 300k thousands sold/bought per day, no way. Also iron ore is dipping, so why would this remain profitable? I doubt it. Seems like it ‘used to be a good source’, but some people forgot to do the math again, and now suddenly would realize it ain’t that good anymore (it should be even worse, by posting this on forums, luring more people out).

the velocity on iron is many many times greater than copper.

first of all copper is only used on low levels, iron is used on mid levels which has about the same exp curve. Iron is also used twice in daily ascended crafting, (As iron and as steel) and it is also used in many side consumable recipes, as well as your odd weird recipe (like backpacks) iron is used for two level ranges as well.

iron has a really large velocity.