Guild Wars 2

A new website has popped up in the last few days which is using GW2spidy’s API to build a data set, and then offering users tools specifically for maximising trade profit. So far so good, I’ve actually been waiting for someone to release such a tool.

However, as per the quote below, they’re charging for it:

[…]susbcription is $15.00 for a 3-month subscription ($5/month), $27 for a 6-month subscription ($4.50/month), or $50 for a 12-month subscription ($4.16/month).

Really I’d just like to hear everyone’s thoughts on this, as it strikes me that it could well be against the EULA or the like.

That’s actually pretty smart to charge for a service like that.

But I think they would probably be hunted by Arenanet’s lawyers since they are trying to profit off of it.

I must wonder what they could offer that gw2spidy doesn’t, and if it’s worth the extra money. Probably not.

I was actually thinking of creating something similar myself….

And yes….it is worth it.

While Spidy is a great tool, it only gives basic information. I use Spidy to fill pricing data into my spreadsheet, but it’s my research into certain items and markets….along with algorithms that truly let me take advantage of the Trading Post. Also, Spidy only gives you information 1 item at a time. What if the application you used scoured the whole of the Trading Post and cross-referenced different markets to tell you the optimal path to maximize your investment? Let’s say you can make a 30% profit buy just working in one market, but if you took that (those) items, turned them into something else, then used those items to craft something, then used THOSE items in the Mystic Forge to make a 500% profit….wouldn’t that be more efficient?

Once those relationships are made, the data is collected and the analysis is run….that is a VERY probably outcome.

Charismatic Harm.9683:

I was actually thinking of creating something similar myself….

And yes….it is worth it.

While Spidy is a great tool, it only gives basic information. I use Spidy to fill pricing data into my spreadsheet, but it’s my research into certain items and markets….along with algorithms that truly let me take advantage of the Trading Post. Also, Spidy only gives you information 1 item at a time. What if the application you used scoured the whole of the Trading Post and cross-referenced different markets to tell you the optimal path to maximize your investment? Let’s say you can make a 30% profit buy just working in one market, but if you took that (those) items, turned them into something else, then used those items to craft something, then used THOSE items in the Mystic Forge to make a 500% profit….wouldn’t that be more efficient?

Once those relationships are made, the data is collected and the analysis is run….that is a VERY probably outcome.

OK, I admit I have absolutely zero clue on how API’s work and all that computer jumble, but wouldn’t these sites have a hard time updating in real-time?

I don’t doubt the usefulness of the tool, indeed I’ve built something similar (though on a much smaller scale) for my own personal use, using Spidy’s API.

What I’m worried about is the legality of it, and whether ANet object to it. It’s an interesting and fine line to walk.

One thing I really would hate to see, is gw2spidy being punished in some way, simply because it’s providing the data via it’s API.

Not really. Search around the internet a bit…even on these forums. There’s actually sites that give the web link to the official LIVE Trading Post website. By sending requests to that site using an authentic (and active) GW2 account, you can get live data of any item on the Trading Post.

GW2Spidy is getting their information by using the “non-public” API provided by GW2DB…which is a Guild Wars 2 Guru run website. They are simply repackaging some of the information and allowing the public to use it.

The real problem with GW2Spidy’s data is that it’s delayed. Although, markets don’t move THAT fast to make a 30-60 minute delay much of an issue. I know it’s not an issue for me because when I’m doing my trading, it’s mostly an overnight thing. Place buy orders before I go to bed, then pick the items up when I log in the next day and do whatever voodoo I do and sell them.

Charismatic Harm.9683:

GW2Spidy is getting their information by using the “non-public” API provided by GW2DB…which is a Guild Wars 2 Guru run website. They are simply repackaging some of the information and allowing the public to use it.

The real problem with GW2Spidy’s data is that it’s delayed. Although, markets don’t move THAT fast to make a 30-60 minute delay much of an issue. I know it’s not an issue for me because when I’m doing my trading, it’s mostly an overnight thing. Place buy orders before I go to bed, then pick the items up when I log in the next day and do whatever voodoo I do and sell them.

Are you sure about that? I was under the impression that GW2 spidy got it’s TP data via it’s own scraping (using a live account to access the data via some kind of web interface). I know there is now integration between spidy and GW2DB, but I thought that came after spidy’s initial design, and was mostly for providing item information and stats. In fact, I thought that GW2DB used Spidy for all it’s financial data.

Grey.7319:

I don’t doubt the usefulness of the tool, indeed I’ve built something similar (though on a much smaller scale) for my own personal use, using Spidy’s API.

What I’m worried about is the legality of it, and whether ANet object to it. It’s an interesting and fine line to walk.

One thing I really would hate to see, is gw2spidy being punished in some way, simply because it’s providing the data via it’s API.

It’s already mentioned by Smith that gw2 is legit.

I’m sure the story would be different if gw2spidy started hosting advertising on it’s site.

And then this new site is going to charge a sub? That’s over the top.

I think they’re trading information back and forth.

Yes, I do believe you’re correct in stating they’re getting live data directly from the Trading Post, but if you read around their site, they state that item data is prioritized and some of it is on longer delays than others to go and GET that data.

What that means is while THEY are getting live data, the API they’ve provided to the public does not return live data. It returns the last data set they queried. That means that the data the public is getting can be delayed anywhere from 30-60 minutes if I recall correctly.

Vol.5241:

Grey.7319:

I don’t doubt the usefulness of the tool, indeed I’ve built something similar (though on a much smaller scale) for my own personal use, using Spidy’s API.

What I’m worried about is the legality of it, and whether ANet object to it. It’s an interesting and fine line to walk.

One thing I really would hate to see, is gw2spidy being punished in some way, simply because it’s providing the data via it’s API.

It’s already mentioned by Smith that gw2 is legit.

I’m sure the story would be different if gw2spidy started hosting advertising on it’s site.

And then this new site is going to charge a sub? That’s over the top.

I would disagree. I feel what they’re trying to get subscribers for is THEIR work, analysis, algorithms and forecasting….not the GW2 Trading Post data itself. They’ll be charging you for using the systems they created, that many people just don’t have the knowledge, patience, or time to figure out for themselves.

I agree it’s a slippery slope, but as long as they aren’t trying to automate the actual trading (buying and selling of goods) from outside the game, I say go for it. As long as they just gather data and not interact in any other way, it’s ok in my book.

I don’t know how ArenaNet will react to something like this. I’d love to see an official response though, because it’ll tell me how quickly I want to work on my project. :-)

GW2Spidy scrapes the trading post data and uses GW2DB for everything else while GW2DB uses GW2Spidy for the trading post data.

The data GW2Spidy gives is not in real time because there’s only so many items they can process. They could make thousands of requests per second, but ArenaNet would most likely blacklist their connection and ban their account for DoSing.

If you make your own however, you can request the item listings in real time and even place buy orders.

If what they’re selling is basically just information, then they’re free to do so, in the same way that players sell their own guides (ie, leveling, gold making guides).

Spidy crawls the TP on a timer. It only crawls every few minutes instead of constantly as a consideration to ANET so that they dont hit DDOS levels of requests on the already (somehow) laggy BLTC servers. Spidy has been ruled to be legal during BWEs and again afterwards.

Spidy finds its own data and scrapes the TP itself, though the item tooltips and whatnot are garnered from gw2db. The API doesn’t offer aged data, if you do a large request (item-all) from it and compare it to items on the site you will get the same results unless the items have been updated since you downloaded your database. It’s also preferable to use item-all instead of item/<itemid> on spidy because of the lessened server load. It’s easier for him to send you one 8.5mb file than it is for him to field 20,000 requests for each individual item.

He’s pretty open about how the site works, with the open source on github and all so I will never understand all of the misconceptions on this site over his methodology.

Healix.5819:

If what they’re selling is basically just information, then they’re free to do so, in the same way that players sell their own guides (ie, leveling, gold making guides).

That’s just the thing. We don’t KNOW if it’s legal. We do know that YouTube sites that are monetized and post GW2 videos have had those videos taken down. I’m sure there are others doing similar things as you suggested like selling guides. That doesn’t mean what they’re doing is strictly legal. It may just be that it’s difficult for ArenaNet to find those sites to shut them down. YouTube is popular, so it’s easy to search for GW2 videos there. A site like what is being discussed here, I feel, will become EXTREMELY popular as well, but may be against the EULA…..even though what subscribers are paying for isn’t the data, it’s the work behind the analysis. ArenaNet may still have a problem because this 3rd party site is profiting from GW2.

Hopefully we’ll get a confirmation.

Yeah, it’s like what I see in baseball.

In baseball, statistics are heavily relied upon and you can generate a ton of analysis based on that data alone. Some people make their own analysis tools that profit of said data.

But the data is owned by the league, and as such anything that profits off of it starts to enter a dangerous area.

Vol.5241:

Yeah, it’s like what I see in baseball.

In baseball, statistics are heavily relied upon and you can generate a ton of analysis based on that data alone. Some people make their own analysis tools that profit of said data.

But the data is owned by the league, and as such anything that profits off of it starts to enter a dangerous area.

That is a perfect comparison to put it into perspective. GW2 is ArenaNet’s intellectual property. They are the ones that determine what people can and can’t do with their property. If they deem it ok, then it’s ok. If they say it’s not, then it’s not. Simple as that.

FYI….I did a little searching around and found the website the OP was talking about…including the subscription fees. I’m not going to advertise it because if this is deemed to be ok by ANet, I don’t want to funnel potential customers to a competitor. I was happy to see that I don’t think they’re doing exactly what I want to do though. It looks like a site that may be an incremental step above GW2Spidy, but maybe not enough to warrant a subscription fee.

Vol.5241:

Yeah, it’s like what I see in baseball.

In baseball, statistics are heavily relied upon and you can generate a ton of analysis based on that data alone. Some people make their own analysis tools that profit of said data.

But the data is owned by the league, and as such anything that profits off of it starts to enter a dangerous area.

Like stated thats a great comparision.
The spreadsheats and the research may be the product of that site- but the access to the information was originally tolerated by Anet for gw2spidy, probably with the terms of making a nonprofitable site (except small scale advertising).
So I’d assume best case that site gets mail by Anets law department or worst case they shut down the availability of the interface so noone tries to profit that directly from their (virtual) belongings.

goldi.3129:

Vol.5241:

Yeah, it’s like what I see in baseball.

In baseball, statistics are heavily relied upon and you can generate a ton of analysis based on that data alone. Some people make their own analysis tools that profit of said data.

But the data is owned by the league, and as such anything that profits off of it starts to enter a dangerous area.

Like stated thats a great comparision.
The spreadsheats and the research may be the product of that site- but the access to the information was originally tolerated by Anet for gw2spidy, probably with the terms of making a nonprofitable site (except small scale advertising).
So I’d assume best case that site gets mail by Anets law department or worst case they shut down the availability of the interface so noone tries to profit that directly from their (virtual) belongings.

That’s my worry. I love the work that’s gone into spidy, and the openness of its API has lead to some really interesting options for market enthusiasts. I would hate to see ANet tighten up the web access to the TP, thus killing spidy, because of sites trying to profit directly from that information.

Grey.7319:

That’s my worry. I love the work that’s gone into spidy, and the openness of its API has lead to some really interesting options for market enthusiasts. I would hate to see ANet tighten up the web access to the TP, thus killing spidy, because of sites trying to profit directly from that information.

This may be nit-picky, but I feel it’s an important point to make….

I don’t feel they are directly profiting from that information. They are indirectly profiting from it. Their direct profits are, or at least should be, coming from their analysis tools.

Charismatic Harm.9683:

Grey.7319:

That’s my worry. I love the work that’s gone into spidy, and the openness of its API has lead to some really interesting options for market enthusiasts. I would hate to see ANet tighten up the web access to the TP, thus killing spidy, because of sites trying to profit directly from that information.

This may be nit-picky, but I feel it’s an important point to make….

I don’t feel they are directly profiting from that information. They are indirectly profiting from it. Their direct profits are, or at least should be, coming from their analysis tools.

And the information that is essential for the automated tools is provided by Anet as a gesture of goodwill. Or was so far. Without the access no automated search with high profit analyzes and therefore no buisness model
If youd create the analyzis without the automatimns than your golden.

goldi.3129:

And the information that is essential for the automated tools is provided by Anet as a gesture of goodwill. Or was so far. Without the access no automated search with high profit analyzes and therefore no buisness model
If youd create the analyzis without the automatimns than your golden.

Hmmm….this brings up an interesting dilemma.

What if a site was only to provide a way to GET the data and analysis tools to analyze it? What I mean by this is that the site doesn’t actually collect all the data using it’s authorized account, but the user would have to request the data they want using their own account. The website just offers an easy way to do this and collects it on a per user basis, then also offers the analysis tools to the user. That way, each user would be responsible for the number of requests that are made…not the service provider.

It would be like eTrade offering up their feeds from the stock markets to each user individually based on the markets / stocks they want to analyze, then once the data the user requested is collected, they can use the analysis tools that are also offered by eTrade to analyze the data.

The site would only be offering tools….no actual data…just a means to acquire it.

Charismatic Harm.9683:

goldi.3129:

And the information that is essential for the automated tools is provided by Anet as a gesture of goodwill. Or was so far. Without the access no automated search with high profit analyzes and therefore no buisness model
If youd create the analyzis without the automatimns than your golden.

Hmmm….this brings up an interesting dilemma.

What if a site was only to provide a way to GET the data and analysis tools to analyze it? What I mean by this is that the site doesn’t actually collect all the data using it’s authorized account, but the user would have to request the data they want using their own account. The website just offers an easy way to do this and collects it on a per user basis, then also offers the analysis tools to the user. That way, each user would be responsible for the number of requests that are made…not the service provider.

I would be like eTrade offering up their feeds from the stock markets to each user individually based on the markets / stocks they want to analyze, then once the data the user requested is collected, they can use the analysis tools that are also offered by eTrade to analyze the data.

The site would only be offering tools….no actual data…just a means to acquire it.

The middle tier would still be the interface Anet provides. The profit would be made of a tool that is based on the interface- who uses the tool how is not the issue. The profit is.
No matter where it is made- as long as somewhere in the chain there is the access to the information that is currently provided for free by a company and you don’t have contacted afore mentioned company if you can use that automated access in that way you are open to get sued.

Simple example, Blizzard sued the hell out of people who sold bots for WoW.
Not because botting was illegal- but because they made a profit based on a product that had no licence for using there product as a source of income. This example does NOT compare botting with crawling their TP through an provided API.
It is simply to show that once a profit is made out of something that does not belong to you/you don’t have the rights to use in that profitgenerating way you are stepping on very very thin ice.

Provide your tools for free- no problem at all Try to profit by using even the tiniest part of work from someone else… and copyright will whack you.

I would think Anet will have an issue with this. It’s one thing to ask for donations for time/servers/etc. but a sub based on someone else’s property seems like it might be a problem…

After thinking about my idea more and reading the post since I made it, I actually think that ArenaNet would like my idea LESS than the site providing the data for the users….whether they like the idea at all is yet to be determined.

The reason being….

Instead of a single user account (the web sites’) requesting the pricing data, you would have multiple, possibly 100’s or 1000’s, of user accounts requesting the information….and many of them would be requesting the same info. That would exponentially multiply the requests that the Trading Post would see.

@goldi

I like your example of the bots in WoW It makes sense…..and I realize you weren’t trying to compare this to actually botting. To provide detailed analysis tools, as we’re discussing here, for free would be downright silly. It would put everyone on an even playing field. While that sounds good in theory, the reason people play and analyze the market is to gain an unfair advantage. That unfair advantage should be something the players either need to work for and figure out on their own, or pay for because someone that’s done the work should be rewarded for doing so. Capitalism baby!!!

Triple word score!

Yes, the market in general would benefit from free detailed analysis tools.
Yes, the individuals doing all the work would suffer.

What anet could do is publish a data file with full detail, but updated at regular intervals (every 30 min or so) – no server overload, as there’s no point spamming requests for updates, and no point in sending billions of individual requests, since the file already has the full detail.

I seem to recall the spidy public API was swamped with requests, crashing the service on several occasions. I’m sure A-Net is taking notes on the experience…
//Yamagawa

Yamagawa.5941:

Triple word score!

Yes, the market in general would benefit from free detailed analysis tools.
Yes, the individuals doing all the work would suffer.

I agree that the individuals doing all the work would suffer, but I don’t believe the market in general would benefit.

If everyone has exactly the same tools that show exactly the same information and these tools are the absolute best available that give complete market analysis across multiple markets to show profitability, we would see the exact same thing as we see when someone gives away a “secret”. Those markets that show profitability would have everyone and their dog trying to invest in them and very quickly become unprofitable. This would lead to no markets being profitable….ever.

Buy and sell prices would always be 1c apart from each other and they would always stay constant. Any attempt at market manipulation would fail immediately.

Would this really be a benefit to anyone?

Spoken like a true man who has yet to craft a stack or two of greatswords in one sitting.

There are costs besides gold in crafting. People are going to seek a market suited to what they can invest. People with a few silver to spare will stick to stuff they can afford mats for. People with hundreds of gold won’t bother wasting time on the stuff that will require literarily thousands of steps to get their gold to market, instead they will look for high value-high margin items, letting the low value stuff go uncrafted… And letting people with less to invest make money on it.

More information removes inefficiencies from the market, it doesn’t wreck it.
It lets it burn ‘hotter’. More of the in-demand mats will fill faster. A buy later or sell later offer will fill faster in this more efficient economy.
The people selling mats get more money for their mats, requiring higher prices for the final goods, but since the mat suppliers got paid more, they can afford the higher prices.

Yes, niches would be destroyed by making all the full pricing deali public.

But niches would also be created. Find them, and you find profit.

//Yamagawa
Do not fear change that brings the unknown of endless possibility. Embrace it, that you may ride it to great heights.

But that’s just the thing….

There are enough people in every gold tier you could think of, from the somewhat “poor” to the “super rich”, that will all end up fighting over the scraps and if the super rich wanted to, they could attempt to dominate the markets of all of the lower tiers.

I really don’t think any profitable market would exist if ALL market information was readily available for everyone to use for free.

I think it would bring the entire economy to a screeching equilibrium though. :-)

I know that I’m not about to try and create a tool like that for others to use without being compensated for it. That would be incredibly stupid of me….unless my goal wasn’t to make money, but instead to attempt to create complete chaos in the market and potentially ruin it for everyone…..which it’s not. I LOVE GW2 and want to see it survive for many years to come.

I’m no legal expert, but I think goldi has it right… the WoW botting case is a great example, because the legal arguments went beyond the EULA and into the rights of the IP holder to control who can profit from their IP.

In addition, I don’t like the fact that someone is trying to use a community provided tool such as gw2spidy, and put their improvements/refinements behind some kind of paywall. The creator of gw2spidy has been running it out of his own pocket (minus whatever ad revenue and donations he has received) and if feels to me that someone is now trying to take advantage of his goodwill.

@Astraea
I agree with you. If this new site is using GW2Spidy API data, then charging for the analysis tools….that’s ridiculous.

I’ve played around with the link to the official Trading Post, I would not use any other 3rd party sites to gather information from because capitalizing on THEIR hard work is a despicable practice. Part of the fun is figuring it out too.