Guild Wars 2

http://notifier.zicore.de/

notifies when u are being undercut, when an item reaches X and god knows what else.

Uh, what’s wrong with that? They decided to have the TP as a web service so of course this was going to happen.

Do you get angry every time google gives you your search results? How about when you get an email notification. I see no problem with this and encourage creative developers to work on it.

Love this cesspool. Welcome to the forums.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/11swo8/zicores_guild_wars_2_trading_post_notifier/

Lets see what this thread ends up like, its a slippery slope is all im saying, next thing u know everyone and their brother bots the TP.

It’s against the user agreement.
From the site:

The application reads the session key used for the trading post from RAM.

From the user agreement (https://www.guildwars2.com/en/legal/guild-wars-2-user-agreement/):

You acknowledge that You may not, without signed written consent from a legally authorized representative of NCsoft, do any of the following:
[…]
(i) Use, obtain or provide data related to operation of the Game, including but not limited to:
(i) software that reads areas of computer memory or storage devices related to the Game;

Overall, though, it doesn’t really make that much of a difference either way – this type of application is not much different to GW2Spidy, and using the GW2Spidy API you could write your own application to do pretty much the same thing.

Sorry if you thought my post was rude, that wasnt my intention. Im just wondering why you think this is so game breaking that you’re going to quit?

Pretty sure if using a session key was against the rules then gwspidy would be an issue as well. It also uses a valid session key to get it’s data i believe.

Supporting documentation: GWsidy Read Me

specifically GW2 Sessions section is read me

That would make it against the rules for the person running the GW2Spidy server, yes.

However, as far as I can tell, that doesn’t make it against the rules to access or view the website, which is the relevant part to most people.

Wouldn’t you have to have agreed with the policy in order for any of that to apply? What if these dudes making these third party services don’t have accounts :P

The data to fill the data base for GWsidy is gotten through the session key, so it would be useless to everyone if the person who’s session key was being used got banned.

But if they didn’t intend the external data sources to be used this way, why design it that way period?

Let me clarify, i said “im out” which means, pulling all of my money off the TP. I just have a lot of concerns about things becoming automated, and i am almost positive most things have become so already. Furthering this with people easily doing so by the masses, which is where this could head, puts the final nail in the coffin for an already fragile economy.

Just curious on ANET view, knowing they are working on the extended experience, and just how far down this slope we are going to go, legit or not.

I’ve already grown weary of a certain other MMO due to people using questionable programs to play the auction house for them, if this ends up becoming a problem in GW2 as well and goes unaddressed? Well, all I’ll say is I’ll be departing.

Hope they can stay on top of things.

If this is ok, then the next question would be what’s stopping someone from automating sell and buy orders based on the market ?

jamescowhen.1562:

If this is ok, then the next question would be what’s stopping someone from automating sell and buy orders based on the market ?

I guarantee this is already in place.

But is it cool with Anet or what’s the deal with it?

I thought Gw2spidy was totally kosher, then an app that automates buy/sell is only a little more than what gw2spidy does

It’s my understanding that gw2spidy is kosher because ANet specifically gave permission for it. Which means other people doing the same thing wouldn’t necessarily be equally kosher if they haven’t gotten the same permission.

jamescowhen.1562:

But is it cool with Anet or what’s the deal with it?

I thought Gw2spidy was totally kosher, then an app that automates buy/sell is only a little more than what gw2spidy does

Well, in terms of what is considered acceptable, I’d say that there is a reasonable line to be drawn between information-gathering and automatically placing orders.

However, given the way the TP is set up, it doesn’t seem like something that would be easy for ANet to enforce.

You don’t need to read the memory to obtain the session key. You can freely login to the trading post site like you would login to the forums. The session key is generated on login.

lackofcheese.5617:

It’s against the user agreement.
From the site:

The application reads the session key used for the trading post from RAM.

From the user agreement (https://www.guildwars2.com/en/legal/guild-wars-2-user-agreement/):

You acknowledge that You may not, without signed written consent from a legally authorized representative of NCsoft, do any of the following:
[…]
(i) Use, obtain or provide data related to operation of the Game, including but not limited to:
(i) software that reads areas of computer memory or storage devices related to the Game;

Overall, though, it doesn’t really make that much of a difference either way – this type of application is not much different to GW2Spidy, and using the GW2Spidy API you could write your own application to do pretty much the same thing.

Except that app is not reading any memory or storage relating to the game. It’s accessing a public API on a website and using a grabber to get the prices of items on the TP. If they didn’t like it, they wouldn’t use a crappy HTML trading post.

Um, did you not read what I quoted? That site specifically said that “the application reads the session key used for the trading post from RAM”, which is definitely against the user agreement.

Accessing via your own browser would give you a different kind of session key than one generated by a login from the game client (this type of key also doesn’t allow you to place buy/sell orders). It would be OK if this was the approach taken by this app, but the fact is that the way it operates is in violation of the user agreement.

I would suggest that Anet consider putting the Trading Post API feed on a 10-30 minute delay. Let people check prices, trends, inventory, etc, but if you keep the real time information in-game, it might help curb manipulation.

Lets hear anet stance on this fine line.

Anet have already said that they will be releasing various API’s and allowing some legitimate apps at some time within the next year.

Gaile has said words to the effect that as long as it is something that does not alter the game code or server in any way or gives one player an unfair advantage by way of automating something then it should be ok.

Like the way Texmod worked with the Cartographer overlay for the first game. You didn’t actually need it, it didn’t alter anything and was pretty harmless. I got it after getting grandmaster cartographer to see how well I’d done edgescraping all those maps.

We might see a legitimate ‘app’ overlay in future that might give a general shaded area as to where to find certain cooking ingredients or where certain nodes are likely to spawn in a general way. Or even someone writing an overlay to show you what zones you’ve completed.

Search the forums or look at Gaile’s posts. You are certain to find it.

Edit: Here you go
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/account/Policy-Third-Party-Programs/first#post354869

I draw your attention to the last sentence.

If you think that this site gives an unfair advantage to players (although it’s available to anyone by the look of it), then report it. Stamping your foot like a spoilt child and threatening to take your bat and ball and go home is just that – childish. Be part of the solution!

I don’t think there is much ArenaNet can do about stuff that merely aggregates information from the game and presents it to you. After all, there is at least one website that displays current market prices, also. What are they going to do? Get sites like that shut down? On what legal ground?

This thing does not alter the game client and does not automate actually playing the game. Someone could also easily make something like this on a web page instead of it being a download.

If stuff like this is going to make or break games for you, then I suggest you stop playing MMOs altogether, because there isn’t much anyone can do about it. I’m not saying you have to like it, but worrying about it isn’t going to accomplish anything.

The current trading post lacks alot features and is horrible to use (no offense to anyone , just my personal opinion), so that’s basically why i made it.

I started developing it for personal usage at first, but i thought why not sharing it with the community.

I suspect that there are macros that people are using to respond to undercutting. This is a bigger problem.

How is botting the TP ok and botting mobs isn’t? It’s an unfair advantage over other players. period. Unless they implement these features in-game.

Olfinbedwere.5049:

How is botting the TP ok and botting mobs isn’t? It’s an unfair advantage over other players. period. Unless they implement these features in-game.

Looks like you have not read the documentation before posting your comments. This doesn’t allow you to bot the TP – automatically buying or selling for you. It only provides you with data like what the gw2spidy website already does.

If you say that accessing the gw2spidy website is having an advantage over other players, then so is accessing the wiki website and that includes all the fan sites as well which would give an advantage over those who don’t visit such sites.

Olfinbedwere.5049:

How is botting the TP ok and botting mobs isn’t? It’s an unfair advantage over other players. period. Unless they implement these features in-game.

The mentioned tool only provides information. A player must still act based on those informations.
A bot would take automated actions.

great tool, thx for sharing!

Yeah its all a bit concerning. I really hope the majority of the content can be acquired without gold like it is now…ie dungeons etc… because I am not liking where this market is headed and yes its a very slippery slope.

sostronk.8167:

Yeah its all a bit concerning. I really hope the majority of the content can be acquired without gold like it is now…ie dungeons etc… because I am not liking where this market is headed and yes its a very slippery slope.

As far as I am concerned, if ArenaNet is fine with this, then that is good enough for me. Since the owner of gw2spidy has already checked with them, then I am ok with using the website and its data.

Wreatch.3812:

Let me clarify, i said “im out” which means, pulling all of my money off the TP.

Good luck farming the rest of your needed mats in a game that puts to rest any idea of “farming”.

DarkSpirit.7046:

Looks like you have not read the documentation before posting your comments. This doesn’t allow you to bot the TP – automatically buying or selling for you. It only provides you with data like what the gw2spidy website already does.

If you say that accessing the gw2spidy website is having an advantage over other players, then so is accessing the wiki website and that includes all the fan sites as well which would give an advantage over those who don’t visit such sites.

It’s still reducing keystrokes, same as macroing which is bannable in pve. So I stand by my statement. And it’s not the same as having to alt tab to check a website that tracks sales history, checking gw2spidy doesn’t reduce keystrokes it just records information same as a wiki.

Olfinbedwere.5049:

DarkSpirit.7046:

Looks like you have not read the documentation before posting your comments. This doesn’t allow you to bot the TP – automatically buying or selling for you. It only provides you with data like what the gw2spidy website already does.

If you say that accessing the gw2spidy website is having an advantage over other players, then so is accessing the wiki website and that includes all the fan sites as well which would give an advantage over those who don’t visit such sites.

It’s still reducing keystrokes, same as macroing which is bannable in pve. So I stand by my statement. And it’s not the same as having to alt tab to check a website that tracks sales history, checking gw2spidy doesn’t reduce keystrokes it just records information same as a wiki.

I still don’t see the difference between alt tab to a check a website and alt tab to check an app dialog with the same data.

The app enables you to see notification on prices, but so does gw2spidy website if you create a login to that website.

And guess what, if you have dual monitors, you don’t even need to alt tab off the game to view the website. How’s that for having a reduction of keystroke advantage?

Sorry if my remarks come across as snidey, but in this case, the advantage you spoke of is relatively small compared to what people already have.

This program gives an unfair advantage…manually checking 30 buyorders take a while, while people who use this just do other fun stuff, wait for a popup and act on it.
I suspect that’s why this program was made. It’s tedious to check for that many buyorders every 10 minutes.

suggestion for anet;
Add a column on the buyorders page stating green text ‘highest bidder’ or in red text ’you’re not the highest bidder’. That way people won’t have to compete with people running third party crap and you’ve added some much needed functionality to the game.

If you guys are complaining about this app, just take a look at Gold Wars 2

Dan.8709:

If you guys are complaining about this app, just take a look at Gold Wars 2

Right, Gold Wars 2 offer an even greater advantage if you have real life money to subscribe to it.

Furthermore, I am sure that I can make a case that having more real life money to buy gems and therefore, gold, would also grant you an advantage over those who are poorer in real life.

Also how about special gaming mice and other gaming hardware? I am sure I can make a case that having those would also offer an advantage over people, like me, who only have a simple mouse. Many of those hardware supports complex macros and saves you even more keystrokes.

If you want to talk about saving keystrokes, how about those who connected their PS3 controller to interface with their GW2 clients? I am sure someone can make a case about those too.

How about dual monitors? When you don’t need to alt-tab out of the game to look at the wiki or web maps or gw2spidy data. Aren’t those an advantage too? The list goes on…

I see no reason to pursue a case for small advantages that this program gives over the much more blatant advantages that other hardware or real life money already gives in the game. Jiro is missing the forest for the trees.

Oh man, I just checked out this Gold Wars 2 site. It’s really disturbing indeed. I found GW2 Spidy already to be on the edge. Spidy will be moving off the edge once it introduces its payed services (or is that already in place?). I really don’t like these developments.

We’re on a very slippery slope here.

Making money on the TP is no longer a game, it’s becoming a business. If you don’t have the third party tools, you lose the TP game. And with this development, the TP game is overtaking the “other” game even more. You know, that game where people spend time to do dungeons, PvE in the open world, or kill players in WvW? The people that play that game will not be able to compete with the people that play the TP game, using their third party automated tools to make money money money fast fast fast.

I hope Arenanet soon steps in and defines (1) where the slope begins, and (2) where it stops.

Wreatch.3812:

http://notifier.zicore.de/

notifies when u are being undercut, when an item reaches X and god knows what else.

anet allowing stuff like this is a joke, just like that “approved” gwspidy whatever thing too. if these tp monitoring things stay, i want an official app or site that keeps track of other things ingame in real time such as wvw, pve event chains notifications, lists of contested and uncontested areas…

Wow. That Gold Wars 2 is intense. I mean really intense. No wonder people have so much gold. I kept trying to get into the TP with around 200G but I had such a hard time that I gave up. No wonder, if people use these kinds of programs. Maybe I should start as well.

Very disappointing to me that the best way to make gold is to play the TP, and not play the game.

Anything that reads or writes process memory is a clear violation of the ToS, regardless of how much of an advantage it does or doesn’t give you compared to other stuff. Zicore reads process memory to get the session key. It really is that simple. Will ArenaNet do anything about it? Anybody’s guess.

Things like GW2Spidy and Gold Wars 2 are on the other side of the line. They use information available through the public API, and they don’t require scanning a process address space to get a session key. They also don’t have access to your user-specific transaction data.

Kintari.4172:

Anything that reads or writes process memory is a clear violation of the ToS, regardless of how much of an advantage it does or doesn’t give you compared to other stuff. Zicore reads process memory to get the session key. It really is that simple. Will ArenaNet do anything about it? Anybody’s guess.

Does this mean I have to uninstall my virus scanner and leave my computer unprotected then? Because my virus scanner scans program memory from time to time and by what you said, it violates the ToS?

There are other ways to get that session key besides searching for it in the process space. You can grab it from the GW2 cookie store or you can grab it from fiddler (even though that would be a manual process but you can go through the hassle of writing a fiddler plugin). It is just that looking for it in the process space is probably the most reliable and simplest means of achieving the goal. The code is also published as open source to prove that there is no misdeed.

The fact that there is a gem store itself to convert real life money into in-game gold is already a more blatant advantage than this little program.

Wreatch.3812:

New apps being created, if this is legal im out.

Please close the door behind you.

DarkSpirit.7046:

Kintari.4172:

Anything that reads or writes process memory is a clear violation of the ToS, regardless of how much of an advantage it does or doesn’t give you compared to other stuff. Zicore reads process memory to get the session key. It really is that simple. Will ArenaNet do anything about it? Anybody’s guess.

Does this mean I have to uninstall my virus scanner and leave my computer unprotected then? Because my virus scanner scans program memory from time to time and by what you said, it violates the ToS?

The fact that there is a gem store itself to convert real life money into in-game gold is already a more blatant advantage than this little program.

It isn’t ‘by what I said’, I’m just repeating what’s in the ToS — well technically the EULA. So ask NCSoft if you’re really concerned about your antivirus. I have a feeling you aren’t though, because you know it isn’t an issue. Once again, ‘advantage’ is irrelevant to whether or not zicore violates that particular EULA clause.

Kintari.4172:

DarkSpirit.7046:

Kintari.4172:

Anything that reads or writes process memory is a clear violation of the ToS, regardless of how much of an advantage it does or doesn’t give you compared to other stuff. Zicore reads process memory to get the session key. It really is that simple. Will ArenaNet do anything about it? Anybody’s guess.

Does this mean I have to uninstall my virus scanner and leave my computer unprotected then? Because my virus scanner scans program memory from time to time and by what you said, it violates the ToS?

The fact that there is a gem store itself to convert real life money into in-game gold is already a more blatant advantage than this little program.

It isn’t ‘by what I said’, I’m just repeating what’s in the ToS — well technically the EULA. So ask NCSoft if you’re really concerned about your antivirus. I have a feeling you aren’t though, because you know it isn’t an issue. Once again, ‘advantage’ is irrelevant to whether or not zicore violates that particular EULA clause.

First of all, the program gives you a choice upon startup on whether you want to use the trading post api or gw2spidy api. If you choose gw2spidy api (which is the default) then it would not need to scan process memory and you would not be violating ToS if you are concerned about that. Therefore, the author has given you the choice and not forcing anyone to violate the ToS.

Using gw2spidy api is not reliable, the website was down part of yesterday and produced spurious data today because of database issues. But that is your choice, to avoid violating any ToS, you have to make do with less reliable data.

Second, in order for gw2spidy to produce the nice charts for item buy/sell over time, it obtains the listing data for each item. In order to do that, it needs a legit session key so gw2spidy is essentially doing the same thing on the back end. You can read what he said here:

“As of late ArenaNet has messed up the item lists (search results and such) to be very unaccurate (due to caching), you can also see this ingame.
I also want to collect gem-exchange data …
So I needed a way to be able to use an ingame session_key when spidering!” (source: https://github.com/rubensayshi/gw2spidy)

goldi.3129:

Olfinbedwere.5049:

How is botting the TP ok and botting mobs isn’t? It’s an unfair advantage over other players. period. Unless they implement these features in-game.

The mentioned tool only provides information. A player must still act based on those informations.
A bot would take automated actions.

Exactly, this is very clearly not a bot.

As for giving unfair advantages (which users in this thread claim the tool does, likening it to combat macros), the tool is much more comparable to a damage meter than a combat macro system.

If we define having information as an unfair advantage, then any third-party applications/information sources become EULA violations. Luckily the wiki is at least officially-sanctioned, so it’s okay. But youtube videos, cartographer sites, character builders, crafting guides, item databases…

Dang, I think we’re all going to get banned under that definition.

Darkspirit, you are only concerned that your own tool becomes illegal. By your own words, when commenting on gold wars 2:

“I don’t mind much when people started undercutting (or should I say overcut?) my buy orders because I can simply cancel and re-issue another buy order with a higher price without penalty. I even have a program that monitors and automatically notifies me whenever any of my buy orders are undercut by someone.”

At least now I know it’s not (only?) bots, but programs such as these that ruin the TP experience for everyone.

Don’t mistake this response for envy, anger or anything negatively reflecting upon you. I admire your creative skills and your drive to make intelligent tools. I just don’t agree that such tools should be able to exist in the first place.