Guild Wars 2

It’s so annoying and so unfair to list your item for, say, 4 gold.

Then somebody undercuts to 3.99.99.
Then 3 people undercut to 3.99.98.
Then somebody comes in and undercuts to 3.99.97.
Then the big boss comes in and undercuts to 3.99.96, selling 30 units of that item.

It could go on and on, just think that 100 persons undercutting for one copper for one unit will in fact delay your sell by 100 buyers, and the last one to undercut will earn only 1 silver less than the original price.

In my opinion there should be a minimum limit to undercutting, like say 1% of the item value, so people would actually have to think if it’s worth to sell at lower price and gain less money in order to gain “priority” instead to drop that meaningless copper, delaying your sell. Or maybe since I don’t know anything about economy I’m missing something.

What are your feelings about “free” undercutting?

Perfectly fine and perfectly realistic. In fact, you see it everyday in the real world be it from Fast Food Companies competing against each other to smaller stores here and there.

It’s called greed… why would they feel for their fellow players if they can get richer faster? Just weather the storm and hope yours sell. Or do some research on the item as to how low it usually goes, that way you wont get stuck with it; or you yourself cut a couple sweet silvers…

Wow. This topic came up again? I think a moderator should merge all these undercutting complaints into a single thread.

It’s called impatience and greed. People want to sell their item NOW but aren’t willing to sell it NOW to an existing buying who may only be willing to pay, say half.

Oh and when you posted your item for 4g, by how much did YOU undercut the existing low price?

Lazuline.3876:

Perfectly fine and perfectly realistic. In fact, you see it everyday in the real world be it from Fast Food Companies competing against each other to smaller stores here and there.

No, it’s not the same thing. In the real world, a store doesn’t have to pay a fee when it undercuts its products to match the competition, instead they have to worry about not lowering the price too much or else they won’t make enough money to cover expenses, initial product cost and to make an acceptable profit. Hence, in real life the ones that manage to keep low expenses and work on a large scale so they can accept making less money-per-product because they’re selling a load of them and cut the initial price they get (or produce) their products at will have the upper hand.

In this game, the only advantage you can have is to be the last one to post a product.

And no, I didn’t undercut. In fact, I like that “Match lower seller” button a lot!

It’s not called greed, or impatience. It’s called business.

Profit is like kinetic energy; both it’s magnitude AND it’s velocity is important. An item that fetches a 10% better margin, but sits on the shelf for twice as long is overall less productive than selling fast and cheap.

It’s not ignorance or stupidity – for many traders whether to undercut or whether to set the price is a calculated decision based on their experience of the market, their spreadsheets and graphs.

I undercut a lot to try and get items faster if I need a large quantity of something. If I need to sell things however, I usually just match the price or sell now.

Ryuujin.8236:

It’s not called greed, or impatience. It’s called business.

Profit is like kinetic energy; both it’s magnitude AND it’s velocity is important. An item that fetches a 10% better margin, but sits on the shelf for twice as long is overall less productive than selling fast and cheap.

It’s not ignorance or stupidity – for many traders whether to undercut or whether to set the price is a calculated decision based on their experience of the market, their spreadsheets and graphs.

This. (QFT)

Undercutting is fine IRL where there isn’t perfect information. Here the trading post gives perfect information about what everyone’s price is. That’s not realistic at all.

katadawn.9158:

Undercutting is fine IRL where there isn’t perfect information. Here the trading post gives perfect information about what everyone’s price is. That’s not realistic at all.

But are we trying to emulate real life? – GW2’s TP is a thing in it’s own right

Was just responding to the second comment which said the current system is perfectly realistic.

I like the lack of a trading system in GW1 far better than the trading post in GW2.

Ryuujin.8236:

It’s not called greed, or impatience. It’s called business.

Profit is like kinetic energy; both it’s magnitude AND it’s velocity is important. An item that fetches a 10% better margin, but sits on the shelf for twice as long is overall less productive than selling fast and cheap.

It’s not ignorance or stupidity – for many traders whether to undercut or whether to set the price is a calculated decision based on their experience of the market, their spreadsheets and graphs.

You misunderstand me. I’m referring to players who try to sell an item and then come here to complain how either it’s not selling or are upset that others undercut them continuously. If they weren’t trying to maximize they profit by pricing an item, which if they bothered to do a bit of research first would show that price being at the high end of the trading range, they will likely not have to wait as long for it to sell. But because they wanted the few extra copper/silver/gold they need to understand patience.

However if you are willing to forgo that extra few copper each while still making a profit, you can turn over items at a relatively good clip, “as long as The Price is Right”.

Lucky Shot.7650:

No, it’s not the same thing. In the real world, a store doesn’t have to pay a fee when it undercuts its products to match the competition, instead they have to worry about not lowering the price too much or else they won’t make enough money to cover expenses, initial product cost and to make an acceptable profit. Hence, in real life the ones that manage to keep low expenses and work on a large scale so they can accept making less money-per-product because they’re selling a load of them and cut the initial price they get (or produce) their products at will have the upper hand.

In this game, the only advantage you can have is to be the last one to post a product.

And no, I didn’t undercut. In fact, I like that “Match lower seller” button a lot!

A store has expenses, you have a trading post fee. You don’t have to go into economies of scale to see it. A store can have loss leaders or promotions to attract sales. In contrast, you can undercut in GW2 to sell your item.

You don’t have to undercut by just 1 copper. It depends on how much profit you’d like to make. In fact, you don’t even have to match the lowest seller. You can set your own prices and see if it sells. This is much like anything being sold irl. Price it too high and no one would buy it. Price it low, and people will consider it a steal and buy it instantly. Price it like everyone else, and you’ll be subjected to brand loyalty and marketing.

In fact, you’re luckier in game in that if you price it like the lowest seller, you’re guaranteed a spot in the queue. IRL if you price in like everyone else, you might not even get sold at all if your product has no branding. In summary, if you go for maximizing profit in game, then don’t complain about those willing to receive less even if it is just 1 copper.

katadawn.9158:

Undercutting is fine IRL where there isn’t perfect information. Here the trading post gives perfect information about what everyone’s price is. That’s not realistic at all.

You don’t have perfect information but you can certainly find out. It is why we have competitor analysis and espionage for the big boys and outright just checking out fellow stores for small time businesses.

Unfortunately, real-world selling tactics don’t work here. Players do not have to (nor can they really) “shop around”. The absolute lowest price in the WORLD is immediately given to them, and all specific products are equal. They have no reason to not buy the cheapest item. It’s not harder for them to find, it’s not lower quality, it doesn’t have any extra fees or waiting time. This market is instant and perfect, and undercutting by 1c will always be the best option, unless you think you can set a price low enough that nobody will want to undercut you. The only thing we have control over is the fact that we are all equal in this system, and can all undercut each other. So we have to.

I am neutral on undercutting in terms of economies and value. However I am against it for one thing that makes us unequal: there is no cost to post a buy order, so the person that is able to be at the computer the most is able to “overcut” the most. For example: I can log on once a day and post the highest buy price, but if someone else is constantly monitoring that item and is able to “overcut” me every 5 minutes, I have very little chance of ever having my buy order fulfilled. This favours people that are able to constantly be online, whereas sell listings favours nobody, since they have a listing fee (you could infinitely undercut but you would lose all your money).

They should allow you to freely adjust the listing price as long as you’re reducing the value. You have already paid for the higher price after all, and it’s not like you’re listing an entirely new item.

They could also make the pricing dynamic where you set both a listing price and a minimum price. As people undercut you, your price would automatically change, making it pointless to undercut by 1c.

If you have a minimum acceptable price to sell the item at then why don’t you just list it at that price?

What you are asking for is an inverse eBay price cap for sellers. Sorry the TP is designed to favor buyers not sellers. You make sellers compete so those who are buying can get a better deal. I’m talking the buy now crowd, not the long term planners or the market flippers but the everyday Joe who is buying equipment and mats for themselves.

Sorry if favoring them is cutting into your income/profits.

Behellagh.1468:

If you have a minimum acceptable price to sell the item at then why don’t you just list it at that price?

Why do people haggle? Why don’t people just sell everything at cost?

Why can buyers see other people’s orders? Shouldn’t it be a black box? Shouldn’t the buyer have to take a chance and offer a reasonable price that they want to buy at rather than always trying to snipe the absolute minimum?

Being able to +/- by just 1c on both buying and selling is a broken system. Being able to do so on buy orders without any risk at all is even worse. Because of this it’s far too easy to abuse buy orders. For example, a simple program written in a few minutes can completely dominate and always be the highest buy order for the desired item. It’s the average joe that’s getting abused the most here, but they don’t know it. At the very least, undercutting should require a minimum difference.

“1c” undercutting doesn’t work in real life because to get that sale, the buyer has to put in effort, which will most likely cost far more than what you would save. If ArenaNet wanted to be complex, they could sort of simulate this by having different trading posts for servers, regions and cross region. Buyers would then have to shop around and pay a fee when going outside of their server and again for outside of their region. This would add needless complexity however when the goal is to simply allow people to buy and sell items.

Healix.5819:

Behellagh.1468:

If you have a minimum acceptable price to sell the item at then why don’t you just list it at that price?

Why do people haggle? Why don’t people just sell everything at cost?

Why can buyers see other people’s orders? Shouldn’t it be a black box? Shouldn’t the buyer have to take a chance and offer a reasonable price that they want to buy at rather than always trying to snipe the absolute minimum?

Being able to +/- by just 1c on both buying and selling is a broken system. Being able to do so on buy orders without any risk at all is even worse. Because of this it’s far too easy to abuse buy orders. For example, a simple program written in a few minutes can completely dominate and always be the highest buy order for the desired item. It’s the average joe that’s getting abused the most here, but they don’t know it. At the very least, undercutting should require a minimum difference.

“1c” undercutting doesn’t work in real life because to get that sale, the buyer has to put in effort, which will most likely cost far more than what you would save. If ArenaNet wanted to be complex, they could sort of simulate this by having different trading posts for servers, regions and cross region. Buyers would then have to shop around and pay a fee when going outside of their server and again for outside of their region. This would add needless complexity however when the goal is to simply allow people to buy and sell items.

No idea what you’re getting at. Undercutting and overbidding by 1 Copper has made me tons of money. It’s a fair system, because it puts the decisions of how much to buy and sell things for with the players.

But, to make you happy, I admit that sometimes I’ll increase that to 2 Copper. Sometimes I can be generous with my flipping.

So what would you prefer – price manipulation in that all goods are sold at the same price point?

This is why I always price my items at midway between the buy and sell price. It’s still high enough to give me a nice profit mark-up over the low-ball bids, but it’s low enough that I’m unlikely to be undercut by other sellers who are reluctant to give up a chunk of their profits. (And if my item happens to be bought up by someone who wants to relist it at a higher price, more power to them. I’ve got my money and I can go back to playing.)

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Healix.5819:

Behellagh.1468:

If you have a minimum acceptable price to sell the item at then why don’t you just list it at that price?

Why do people haggle? Why don’t people just sell everything at cost?

Why can buyers see other people’s orders? Shouldn’t it be a black box? Shouldn’t the buyer have to take a chance and offer a reasonable price that they want to buy at rather than always trying to snipe the absolute minimum?

Being able to +/- by just 1c on both buying and selling is a broken system. Being able to do so on buy orders without any risk at all is even worse. Because of this it’s far too easy to abuse buy orders. For example, a simple program written in a few minutes can completely dominate and always be the highest buy order for the desired item. It’s the average joe that’s getting abused the most here, but they don’t know it. At the very least, undercutting should require a minimum difference.

“1c” undercutting doesn’t work in real life because to get that sale, the buyer has to put in effort, which will most likely cost far more than what you would save. If ArenaNet wanted to be complex, they could sort of simulate this by having different trading posts for servers, regions and cross region. Buyers would then have to shop around and pay a fee when going outside of their server and again for outside of their region. This would add needless complexity however when the goal is to simply allow people to buy and sell items.

No idea what you’re getting at. Undercutting and overbidding by 1 Copper has made me tons of money. It’s a fair system, because it puts the decisions of how much to buy and sell things for with the players.

But, to make you happy, I admit that sometimes I’ll increase that to 2 Copper. Sometimes I can be generous with my flipping.

The fact that has made you money doesn’t mean it’s fair. And no, 1 copper doesn’t make any difference so no decision is involved, you won’t lose money for undercutting/overcutting by one copper, unless the item is worth a few coppers. If the system allowed you to overcut/undercut by a % of the item’s listed value you would still be able to overcut/undercut by one copper on those low value items. Of course you won’t be able to scam-cutting on a 3 gold worth item for a copper.

The system as it is now only supports the last one to place the bid/sell or, as already stated, people who constantly keep an eye on their buy listings. No thoughts involved, just cut 1 worthless copper.

Undercutting by .01 is VERY prevalent in the real world. Go take a look at amazon. Many 3rd party sellers have software that is constantly checking their listings and lowering the price by .01 (until they hit the bottom limit they set within the software). They do this because it works.

The TP is about turning your items into gold. Just as in real life, some will be good at it and balance between waiting for the right price or turning quickly. Others will never learn.

Zaxares.5419:

This is why I always price my items at midway between the buy and sell price. It’s still high enough to give me a nice profit mark-up over the low-ball bids, but it’s low enough that I’m unlikely to be undercut by other sellers who are reluctant to give up a chunk of their profits. (And if my item happens to be bought up by someone who wants to relist it at a higher price, more power to them. I’ve got my money and I can go back to playing.)

I do something similar, but try to maximize what I can get (usually 2/3 to 3/4 between high buy and low sell). I’m not saying what is being request can’t be done, but it does open up a can of worms that it appears ANet is not willing to crack open.

Pappy.2758:

Undercutting by .01 is VERY prevalent in the real world. Go take a look at amazon. Many 3rd party sellers have software that is constantly checking their listings and lowering the price by .01 (until they hit the bottom limit they set within the software). They do this because it works.

Real life buyers aren’t mindless drones that cart the cheapest product every other factor disregarded. There are multiple other factors that influence their decision, like cost of shipping, rating of the seller, availability, warranty/terms of use, sheer indifference to the prospect of saving one penny and yes, lack of information (because in real life we don’t have a single button that lets you buy the cheapest identical copy of your requested product in the entirety of the world).
None of that exists in GW2. Equating them is a classic example of faulty logic. The GW2 AH needs a dev-instated regulating mechanism making the undercutting issue much less silly. A small percentage-based tax would be enough already.

Also the argument that this is because the AH is a buyer’s market is disingenuous. Buyers don’t benefit from saving one copper coin, it’s the most impatient sellers who come out on top here. It’s literally a last in first out system at work.
Buyers would profit if there were an undercutting tax.

Someone will always undercut/overbid the current front runner, doing it by 10s instead of 1c doesn’t change anything, and people will still have a kitten because of it. Currently the prices are determined by the market, both buyers and sellers have a say in what items sell for, not Anet.

This is as it should be, they already have a minimum sale price so that prices can’t drop below vendor price, and while I would prefer that they include the 15% tp fees in their calculation, they don’t so I accept it. So many items sell for 1c above vendor, items you can make more money from by selling to a vendor (removing the item from the game) than by selling to another player. Not the ideal situation but you work with what you got.

Jamais vu.5284:

Real life buyers aren’t mindless drones that cart the cheapest product every other factor disregarded.

If we’re talking about 100% identical items, you would have to be mindless not to buy the cheapest offer, for whichever definition of “cheapest” that you use. The only difference between the game and reality is that the lowest purchase price you see on TP is always the bottom-line cheapest. The real world makes you calculate other stuff to find the bottom line. Which in no way implies that this is how things should be if given a choice.

There are multiple other factors that influence their decision, like cost of shipping, rating of the seller, availability, warranty/terms of use, sheer indifference to the prospect of saving one penny and yes, lack of information (because in real life we don’t have a single button that lets you buy the cheapest identical copy of your requested product in the entirety of the world).

None of that exists in GW2. Equating them is a classic example of faulty logic.

And yet you’re advocating for GW2 markets to be more like the real world by introducing inefficiencies to slow down competition.