Guild Wars 2

Thing is, I’m passionate about this game, and when I see people who don’t understand the fundamental differences between a P2W game and GW2, I perk up. It comes down to this – conveniences items that are openly available to all players do not meet any criteria for what a real P2W game is. I’ll attempt to describe how the model works again, only a lot more simplified. Here we go:

P2W – Game model that sells items or boosts for real money. These items cannot be used by non-paying players. Uneven playing field.

I think I did a pretty good job there. Simple and to the point. Now using that simplified description, GW2 does not fall into a P2W category, because all items can be used by paying and non-paying players. In fact, any game that allows non-paying customers to be on the same level as paying customers breaks the heart and soul of what a P2W game is.

It’s the “These items cannot be used by non-paying members” bit that is messing you up. That’s where the corners on the peg come from. That is the constraint you and some others are adding to a universal definition.

I understand what Smooth Penguin is saying, but the model he is describing is a very old, and frankly, quite antiquated concept of P2W. Even Urban Dictionary defines P2W now as:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pay-to-win

Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.

…notice that exclusivity of items requiring money IRL is excluded.

One of the perks that people who “pay to win” nowadays lies on the time value of money, allowing them to take advantage of ingame economy via inflation or interest to get the best equips in the game faster than those who don’t. The thing with GW2 China though is, that the time:money ratio isn’t very large, and so it remains largely acceptable, but RL money gets you an advantage nevertheless. This is of course just based on what we know now in GW2+speculations.

For one thing, Urban Dictionary is not a reliable source of any type of definitions. The only time that every comes into play is when a Dev wants to verify if a certain word is slang for something naughty, thus justifying a name ban or verbal abuse suspension. This is because punishments are open to interpretation.

Back to “P2W”. Even if you use the definition found in Urban Dictionary, you failed to highlight the second part. I’ll quote you:

Leo Paul.1659:

Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.

Key words are “unbalanced” and “without paying”. Because GW2 allows non-paying players to use the same benefits as paying customers, the Urban Dictionary definition then states that GW2 is not a P2W game.

Your ignoring the time element again.

Essence Snow.3194:

Your ignoring the time element again.

You’re ignoring the fact that the time factor plays no part in a P2W model. Meaning if a paying player and non-paying player can both save time using the same convenience item, it’s a level playing field.

It surely plays a very large part in it. A non playing player cannot save the same amount of time b/c they have to spend time playing in order to obtain the same advantage.

One obtains it right away from paying via rl cash and the other spends time to obtain it. Given that they are starting from the same point and the only variables are paying with cash vs converting actually playing, the cash will always exceed the conversion.

Essence Snow.3194:

It surely plays a very large part in it. A non playing player cannot save the same amount of time b/c they have to spend time playing in order to obtain the same advantage.

One obtains it right away from paying via rl cash and the other spends time to obtain it. Given that they are starting from the same point and the only variables are paying with cash vs converting actually playing, the cash will always exceed the conversion.

But you’re not differentiating the time spent to purposely farm Gold for Gem Store items, and the time spent playing the game as normal, and using the Gold to exchange for Gems, thus creating a bonus. But let’s look at your “saving time concept” first:

Example: I have a insta level 20 scroll, and 60 level scrolls, so I can make a new character and be at max level 80 within a minute after creation. I played SPvP for hours of fun with no intent on farming the Glory for the level up items. I just happened to have thousands of Glory points to spend.

So when you make the argument that I’m saving time by using a “P2W item” (by your definition), you’re completely ignoring the fact that my “time” spent was used for something else. I did not “spend time” to “save time”. Every hour I spent in SPvP was meaningful and well worth it.

Of course all this is moot, since “saving time” = convenience item. And since that convenience item is available to all players (paying and non-paying), it’s not P2W by any means. If a convenience item was only available to cash paying players, then you’d have P2W. Thankfully, GW2 has none of that.

Your adding in other independent variables that alter the outcome. It doesn’t work that way. It defeats the comparison.

Essence Snow.3194:

Your adding in other independent variables that alter the outcome. It doesn’t work that way. It defeats the comparison.

So does the comparison of “saving time” for paying customers over “saving time” for non-paying customers. In the end, both “saved time”, so it’s not P2W.

What you are saying with that last post is that they are both one in the same which is obviously no true.
There is a definite difference hence the whole debate. Paying vs Not Paying…the difference being the “not”.

They actually are the same, being that both paying and non-paying players have access to the same items.

The inherent trait of a P2W model is that a paying player has an advantage over a non-paying player. So if a game business model provides this same advantage to both evenly, it cannot be considered P2W anymore.

It has to be since the paying is replacing something. Since it replaces the time and effort costs to get to the same objective it essentially becomes n-1 (1 being that which is being replaced). The -1 is the advantage/win in P2W thus impossible to not be P2W when present.

I think Smooth’s point is that people who pay cash for it and people who pay time for it are both paying for it and are receiving it, therefore it isn’t an advantage that is exclusive to the cash or the time payers.

Since both have the ability to purchase it with their chosen currency (cash or time) it isn’t discriminatory.

Essence Snow.3194:

It has to be since the paying is replacing something. Since it replaces the time and effort costs to get to the same objective it essentially becomes n-1 (1 being that which is being replaced). The -1 is the advantage/win in P2W thus impossible to not be P2W when present.

But then with your reasoning, paying customers are at a disadvantage, since paying (or playing) for conveniences replaces the time and effort to play the game (in a sense), they lose out on content. Thus by your standards, when I took the shortcut warp pipe from 1-2 to 4-1 in Super Mario Bro, I just P2W.

If you paid for that shortcut using rl cash, then yes in the Mario example it would be. (ofc given that being the options have the same objective) The objective needs to stay constant between those things compared.

Just a fyi…I’m in this for the long haul so I’ll just keep on replying cheers

Essence Snow.3194:

If you paid for that shortcut using rl cash, then yes in the Mario example it would be. (ofc given that being the options have the same objective) The objective needs to stay constant between those things compared.

But I paid nothing for it, and yet saved time (the objective). What difference does it make if I paid real life cash or exchanged playing time to achieve this?

The PAY. rl cash, moola, buck, clam, green, cream get the money dolla dolla bill ya’ll>>>>>its the whole debate.

Exactly. So if you pay real life cash to have advantages over non-real life cash paying players, that’s a P2W model. But when those advantages are provided to both real life cash paying players and non-real life cash paying players, it’s a level playing field, and thus not P2W.

It’s not the exact same. That’s the reason you’re wrong. If it were there wouldn’t be the option.

Essence Snow.3194:

It’s not the exact same. That’s the reason you’re wrong.

But it’s the heart and soul of what P2W is, so that’s the reason why you’re wrong.

Nope………lol…..You!!!!!!! It’s the heart of soul of your definition…which is dated btw.
Reminds me of trying to explain technology to a baby boomer. They just don’t get it and it’s kinda funny (yet sad at the same time) watching them struggle.

Essence Snow.3194:

Nope………lol…..You!!!!!!! It’s the heart of soul of your definition…which is dated btw.

Dated, but remains true to this day. Just like the idiom “beating a dead horse”.

Which we are both doing. Pot meet kettle. Hi Pot!

The idiom actually means: a particular request or line of conversation is already foreclosed or otherwise resolved, and any attempt to continue it is futile; or that to continue in any endeavour (physical, mental, etc.) is a waste of time as the outcome is already decided.

The P2W debate ended long ago. I’m just helping you to understand that by correcting your misunderstanding of what the term means.

You decided The general populous has not. Thus you’re wrong.

edit: I gtg for a while, but when I come back I shall taunt you a second time!

Since I have the backing via the testimony of experienced game developers, I’m actually not wrong. If you noticed above, even the quotes Leo provided support the definition that I’m defending.

Edit – Sad. I have nothing to do at work. I need more debates!!! I guess I’ll take a couple of hours off for lunch.

Will you 2 just get a room already?

Pay to Win = pay real money to get an advantage over a non-paying customer, a market aimed to give an advantage for paying customers.
Pay to Save Time = pay real money to get something in-game at a faster rate, a market aimed at giving customers a choice of time.

we can argue till death tears us apart but it’s actually simple, it’s ether P2W or P2ST, not both.

sorudo.9054:

Pay to Win = pay real money to get an advantage over a non-paying customer, a market aimed to give an advantage for paying customers.
Pay to Save Time = pay real money to get something in-game at a faster rate, a market aimed at giving customers a choice of time.

we can argue till death tears us apart but it’s actually simple, it’s ether P2W or P2ST, not both.

Two points:

Is this supposed to be a universal statement or only specific to GW2?

Does the amount of “saved time” matter? Or would you alter this position depending on if it would take an average of 1h/100h/10.000h played time to obtain said something?

This would be over if people play games like Marvel Avengers Alliance or Perfect World or C9, where people can technically can acquire store currency/equipment as loot or via conversion, but is still very much p2w because of how big the disparity can become between those who spend and those who don’t.

This is what true P2W is. Random game on the inet with normal vs “vip” status.

That’s not too different from what GW2 VIP offers tbh.. http://imgur.com/a/k9GA4#3

Ready for the big leagues?

Step up to the plate and join the elite group of VIP members. Only VIP members enjoy the exclusive benefits that make like [sic] worth living. Enroll today and find out what you’ve been missing!

Gemstore Discounts
Convenient Banking
Extra Bank Space
Teleport to Friend
Convenient Trading
Ressurection Buff
Additional Bag Slot
Additional Character Slot
Gift Bag
~~ Boosters, Finisher, Material Bag, Loot Bag, 3 Gold daily
Additional Skill Points
Prestige and recognition
Daily, Weekly and Monthly Achievements
and much more!

Except for the fancy title and icon and the useless teleport to friend, everything that’s mentioned in the vip benefits you can already buy from the Gem Store. I mean, no one complains that you can buy instant bank access, or orb revivers, or character slots, or bag slots, or xp boosters, or etc… but when they are all thrown together sudenly kittenstorm breaks loose.
Not sure how much VIP status would cost, but i assume wouldn’t be alot cheaper than if you were to buy all those benefits individually from the Gem Store.

1st that’s old now, it’s been renamed. 2nd ANet says it’s a loyalty program. It has yet to be explained how loyalty is determined.

VaLee.5102:

Except for the fancy title and icon and the useless teleport to friend, everything that’s mentioned in the vip benefits you can already buy from the Gem Store. I mean, no one complains that you can buy instant bank access, or orb revivers, or character slots, or bag slots, or xp boosters, or etc… but when they are all thrown together sudenly kittenstorm breaks loose.
Not sure how much VIP status would cost, but i assume wouldn’t be alot cheaper than if you were to buy all those benefits individually from the Gem Store.

How is it any different from the “True P2W” screenie u posted?

Because you can already buy what’s in the VIP bonus for CN in GW2 in the Gem Store. Like I said, how come now GW2 is not P2W when you can buy the bonuses separately but it’s gonna be P2W if you buy them bundled together with a fancy “VIP” name.

I’ll make this reply quick, since I finally have a project to do at work. If the Chinese version of GW2 does not allow for Gold → Gem Exchanges, then it will effectively be P2W. Paying players will have access to items that non-paying players can’t get. Again, Chinese version only. BUT… we need to see how changes are done with the feedback from their Beta. Kong Zhong wanted GW2 to be different from the current F2P and Sub model games available, which is why they have a similar “buy the box, free to play” model like the US and EU. P2W microtransactions are more acceptable (or tolerated for some) in the Asia region, so it won’t surprise me if they do add some elements.

Overall, I’ll state again that GW2 is not a P2W game as it currently stands. But that’s not to say that I wouldn’t buy a VIP package if offered in our version.

Rouven.7409:

sorudo.9054:

Pay to Win = pay real money to get an advantage over a non-paying customer, a market aimed to give an advantage for paying customers.
Pay to Save Time = pay real money to get something in-game at a faster rate, a market aimed at giving customers a choice of time.

we can argue till death tears us apart but it’s actually simple, it’s ether P2W or P2ST, not both.

Two points:

Is this supposed to be a universal statement or only specific to GW2?

Does the amount of “saved time” matter? Or would you alter this position depending on if it would take an average of 1h/100h/10.000h played time to obtain said something?

1.) yes, it’s global
2.) it doesn’t really matter because any game designer knows that when something takes way to long, it doesn’t matter if there are paying customers, they just leave.
the free part(or at least, non-paying ones) has to be do-able, all the store items do is make something faster, not easier.