Guild Wars 2

I have felt for a while that I am in a similar situation to OP, and I arrived at a completely different perspective. let me explain:
Basically, I make more gold than I use by spending a few hours a week on the TP.
That allows me to play the game for fun and never have to worry about farming or mindless champ trains or temple runs or yada yada yada. I can focus on fun things instead of spending hours, days, even months to grind out those better pixels.

loot should not be buffed to be on par with TP trading. That will do 2 things: cause massive inflation (like spending 40s to get 1 copper ore) and make TP trading even more profitable (If people have twice as much gold to spend on stuff, TP traders will make twice the profit by selling to them)

It’s more time effective to farm for gold and use the TP than farm the mats ( for example) to make a legendary or an ascended ect .Imo there should be a balance between the 2 methods and not such a drastic difference.
Then only thing seriously overpriced in the TP are finished legendaries and precursors and that can be fixed too. Starting by making legendaries acc bound on craft.

People playing D3’s market on the high end wasn’t a problem; it was probably a feature, really. The trading game is really fun for some, and being able to fill that niche is valuable.

The problem was that, with the way their loot system was set up, if you weren’t part of the 1-2% on the leading edge of progression, nothing you ever found was going to be worth anything on the market. The junk loot found by those players would overshadow anything you found, and it made the whole reward system fall apart.

There are plenty of ways around that, to have a satisfying trade system. D3 just didn’t do any reward design at all, and paid the price.

Wikie.2610:

you missed the whole point of my posts
only thing thats left for me is for example getting some legendaries but why getting them by actual gameplay earning lets say 5-30g an hour (out of lets say 3k) while I can get them by doing literally NOTHING (well obviously apart from placing some orders etc), while others do hard work to get them…and also some of these people playing the game working slowly towards their goals are doing slave work for me and help me achieve my goals because I exploit their hard earned loots to generate profit flip their stuff for profit etc….wonders of capitalism eh

I think you underestimate the work required for success on the TP — it’s not nothing; it’s just a different kind of work. I don’t see why the existence of people who make money at a different part of the game should make playing the game normally less fun.

Wikie.2610:

@behellagh
what I meant with artificial demand/supply is a situation where people create/influence market not to actually get some stuff use it in gameplay etc but for the sole purpose of TP profits – for example flippers and speculators selling/buying stuff to/from other flippers speculators

The only actual example I know where someone successfully manipulated the market via artificial demand was the recipes of dwayna / grenth backpieces — they filled a million buy orders at 1c, and got them onto the front page, and buy order prices did rise; it seems possible that the person doing this made some money — but ultimately the price fell back down to a reasonable number.

Most attempts to manipulate the market fail; most people who make money on it do so not by manipulating things, but by understanding them. You make a lot more money figuring out where the market is going than trying to direct it somewhere …

Generally speculation is not about manipulating supply, but about smoothing it out — if there’s a problem in the market for snowflakes, it’s in the fact that ANet only rewards them for one month a year; all the supply at other times is from speculators, who are providing a service. And flippers provide liquidity for people who just want to play the game and get more money for their items than the could have received from the merchant.

TP is what makes this game fun. I am so glad they didn’t do something horrible like Elder Scrolls Online.

Wikie.2610:

yeah obviously penguin you don’t need to state same things over and over again (also count previous tons of topics regarding such issues) in form of rhetorical questions we know answers to but my point stays.

Here lies the problem. You already know your point has no purpose, yet you continue to push it. This happens to a lot of people on the forums. You have personal preferences that you try to pass long as “problems” for the entirety of the player base, when the problem is actually your own mindset.

-You don’t like the TP, yet you use it.
-You complain about not doing content, when you’re the one making the choice not to do content.
-You don’t want to take the time to earn rewards in PvE, so you buy them off the TP to get them quicker, only to complain about what you just did.

Solutions to your “problems”

1) Stop using the TP. If you dislike having to stand by the TP instead of playing the game, perhaps you should play the game more?
2) If you have friends in game, play with them. If you have none, go out and make some new friends.
3) If you feel you’ve done all you can with the game, do something else. I’m tired of the same dungeons too, but I find other things to keep me interested in this game. SPvP is fun (when you play with competent players). WvW is fun. And hardcore events like Teq and Great Wurm are fun with 150 of your guildies. But if all else fails, and you still find nothing to do within this game, turn it off and take a break.

tl;dr – There’s nothing wrong with the TP. The problem is with the personal preferences of players who complain about it.

again you and dozen others are repeating yourself attacking me over and over saying it is my attitude to blame and not how the tp and economy is designed in this game
yet you provided no counterpoint for the fact that adventuring and saving the whole kitten world is a bad time investment in terms of ingame reward compared to tp playing

Wikie.2610:

yet you provided no counterpoint for the fact that adventuring and saving the whole kitten world is a bad time investment in terms of ingame reward compared to tp playing

The burden of proof is on you to show this is factual information if your using it as your premise to why the TP is bad. I’ve tried both approaches to making money and getting stuff; I’m WAY more successful farming than I am on the TP. I’m not the only player where that is the case; that’s the counterpoint.

Wikie.2610:

again you and dozen others are repeating yourself attacking me over and over saying it is my attitude to blame and not how the tp and economy is designed in this game
yet you provided no counterpoint for the fact that adventuring and saving the whole kitten world is a bad time investment in terms of ingame reward compared to tp playing

You actually countered your own points by admitting that you aren’t playing content in this game because you’re on the TP. I gave you a solution to help solve your own self imposed problems.

As for your complaints that there aren’t enough rewards in game, I beg to differ. SPvP provides a nice new reward track system, in which you can get Exotic weapons boxes, and even a unique backpiece. PvE rewards are all there too. Dungeons grant tokens to exchange for unique weapons and armors. Hardcore events like Teq and the Great Wurm offer a chance to get unique weapons or armors. You have options, but you aren’t taking them.

So it comes down to your own fault for not having anything to do. I even gave you a possible solution to that as well. Turn off the game and take a break. If you log in everyday and complain that there’s nothing to do (even when there is), find other outlets to use your energy on. Spring brings flowers and bird and all sorts of stuff in the real world. Take some time to get fresh air, and enjoy the world away from your computer.

Side notes on chance – This means RNG. You aren’t guaranteed to get an item drop that’s locked behind RNG. This does two things. 1) It keeps the item rare. 2) The reward is more meaningful when you actually get it as an RNG drop.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Wikie.2610:

again you and dozen others are repeating yourself attacking me over and over saying it is my attitude to blame and not how the tp and economy is designed in this game
yet you provided no counterpoint for the fact that adventuring and saving the whole kitten world is a bad time investment in terms of ingame reward compared to tp playing

You actually countered your own points by admitting that you aren’t playing content in this game because you’re on the TP. I gave you a solution to help solve your own self imposed problems.

As for your complaints that there aren’t enough rewards in game, I beg to differ. SPvP provides a nice new reward track system, in which you can get Exotic weapons boxes, and even a unique backpiece. PvE rewards are all there too. Dungeons grant tokens to exchange for unique weapons and armors. Hardcore events like Teq and the Great Wurm offer a chance to get unique weapons or armors. You have options, but you aren’t taking them.

So it comes down to your own fault for not having anything to do. I even gave you a possible solution to that as well. Turn off the game and take a break. If you log in everyday and complain that there’s nothing to do (even when there is), find other outlets to use your energy on. Spring brings flowers and bird and all sorts of stuff in the real world. Take some time to get fresh air, and enjoy the world away from your computer.

Side notes on chance – This means RNG. You aren’t guaranteed to get an item drop that’s locked behind RNG. This does two things. 1) It keeps the item rare. 2) The reward is more meaningful when you actually get it as an RNG drop.

Do you sPvP? Those exotic boxes have junk in them. It’s like opening a jumping puzzle chest. You even get whites from them. The chance that you note for decent rewards is like the chance of winning the lottery for making a living.

Obtena.7952:

The burden of proof is on you to show this is factual information if your using it as your premise to why the TP is bad

I provided an example and some arguments why core aspects of mmo should be more important than economy in it and that example if you havent noticed was the biggest mmo company in the history of the genre responsible for bestsellers like WoW and diablo all of which thwart guild wars 2 profits and sales and which playerbase and popularity is much much bigger so go figure, think a gaming giant like activision who owns blizzard would do things bad for both their profits and playerbase? they realized that the focus on ingame profits and trading was killing the sense of adventure in players and whats fun in mmorpg (already provided you with exact quotes) and dont bullkitten me with this whole ‘but oooh this is not d3 this is gw2’ and ‘oooh they had auction houses we have stock exhchange’ arguments because the core argument is still MMORPGS should be about epic adventures and not capitalism wallstreet simulator and in this game where progress is horizontal and endgame is all about cool nice looking skins most of them are only achievable through tp grind and casual player will never be able to get any of those, and now someone will come with ‘oooh but wikie you dont need those you can wear 1g exotics and be as efficient’ that is bullkitten and you know it, I bet a lot of people quit because they cant have nice things and have to wear some basic dungeon skins, and in other games at least they can achieve nice things through hard work/grind that isnt nerfed with every patch, even tho some of them are better players and/or can play more still they get crumbs while some tp barons run around with 11 legendaries just because they are better stock traders. also about the argument ‘then give us better alternative’ me and phys already pointed out few times some systems from gw1 for example, and keep in mind we arent paid to think about it John Smith is

also @Penguin
I haven’t said I am spending more time on tp instead of other areas of the game, just said I’m not feeling compelled to spend more time in them as rewards are bad
I spend on tp max 30 minutes a day rest 1-2 hours is few fractals to maybe get my bow and tonic and tpvp to get a title.
and ‘really nice new reward system in spvp’ really? with what? same kittenty blues and greenies as everywhere else and once in a while old rehashed dungeon armors all of for which I have few hundred to few thousand tokens in wallet and no reason to spend them…cool

Wikie.2610:

again you and dozen others are repeating yourself attacking me over and over saying it is my attitude to blame and not how the tp and economy is designed in this game
yet you provided no counterpoint for the fact that adventuring and saving the whole kitten world is a bad time investment in terms of ingame reward compared to tp playing

It sounds like you’re stuck on part of min-maxing — I can understand that. Keep in mind that most people trying to play the TP will probably fail to make money (just like those IRL, and similar to the results from trying to forge precursors via the mystic forge). It’s frustrating to hear about the few who are most successful, but there’s very much a selection bias in effect.

IMO, if you’re min/max’ing — speculation is more efficient than flipping in terms of time (mostly you just need to decide when to buy and when or at what price to sell, and otherwise you can ignore the TP). It’s beneficial to non-speculators (makes prices more competitive, provides event-limited items to players who couldn’t participate in those events, etc), and all it really requires is some analysis based on what you already know and some inventory space. But if if it’s not appealing — just remember that most people who try to play the market (including speculators) will fail to make money at least as often as they succeed … they’re just more likely to talk about the successes.

Wikie.2610:

also @Penguin
I haven’t said I am spending more time on tp instead of other areas of the game, just said I’m not feeling compelled to spend more time in them as rewards are bad
I spend on tp max 30 minutes a day rest 1-2 hours is few fractals to maybe get my bow and tonic and tpvp to get a title.
and ‘really nice new reward system in spvp’ really? with what? same kittenty blues and greenies as everywhere else and once in a while old rehashed dungeon armors all of for which I have few hundred to few thousand tokens in wallet and no reason to spend them…cool

Ah, so you’re not feeling compelled to spend more time in the game because of few rewards? But your opening post and thread title suggest that it’s the TP’s fault that you’re not feeling compelled to spend more time in the game. So what is it? Are you upset that no new content/rewards were released. or that the TP “discourages” you from playing existing content?

Wikie.2610:

Obtena.7952:

The burden of proof is on you to show this is factual information if your using it as your premise to why the TP is bad

I provided an example and some arguments why core aspects of mmo should be more important than economy in it …

That’s not really relevant to your claim that PVE isn’t more rewarding to people than the TP. Despite where you think the economy should rank with respect to other core aspects of the game, it doesn’t determine what is more rewarding to players.

I have provided my own evidence contrary to your claim … my own success in PVE vs. TP, showing that what is rewarding is a player-dependent consideration, not a general and absolute truth as you say it is. Therefore, your argument is based on suspect claims.

So again, if you’re claiming PVE is not as rewarding as playing the TP as a FACT for everyone, how can it be possible that I can be more successful farming as opposed to playing the TP?

^^ That’s a great story but it doesn’t change the fact that what people find rewarding in a game is based on the individual player and not based on some ranking of game elements. Therefore, it’s nonsense to claim TP kills the fun for people who find it rewarding to play aspects of the game that aren’t the TP.

To take that further, I don’t see any arguments that shows the TP kills the fun for people who actually do find it rewarding to play the TP. Really, the only people that don’t find it rewarding are the people that a) willingly and repeated subject themselves to it and lose money or b) jealous of others and associate a quality of equality in the game to justify their negative feelings about it. Either of those two group don’t have an unbiased assessment of the TP’s impact on the game.

Do yourself a little mind experiment .. what kills the game more … the TP or NO TP. What is your alternate to either option? Why is it better? That’s what is missing in all this QQ … someone actually stepping up to say “This is better than TP” instead of “TP is awful”.

Ok, so say the devs double the rewards in PvE content. Rares and exotics drop twice as often, precursors drop twice as often, every monetary reward is doubled.

This doesn’t solve anything. More players have more money so the number of players competing for precursors and other desirable items increases many times over. But less desirable items are also more common and the prices drop. So those lucky/smart enough to have these desirable items collect more money than before, while the average player has more cash but less buying power as the price of those rare items increase to 4x, 5x, 10x what they are now.

You end up with more money, more “worthless junk,” and you still can’t buy that precursor.

The devs are a lot smarter than we are, and if I already know it’s a mistake, so do they. Saying the same thing over and over doesn’t make it true, it just makes people stop listening to you.

tolunart.2095:

Ok, so say the devs double the rewards in PvE content. Rares and exotics drop twice as often, precursors drop twice as often, every monetary reward is doubled.

This doesn’t solve anything. More players have more money so the number of players competing for precursors and other desirable items increases many times over. But less desirable items are also more common and the prices drop. So those lucky/smart enough to have these desirable items collect more money than before, while the average player has more cash but less buying power as the price of those rare items increase to 4x, 5x, 10x what they are now.

You end up with more money, more “worthless junk,” and you still can’t buy that precursor.
.

Just waiting on that light bulb to appear when you realize that what you just said is one of the major problems with this game’s reward structure.

I never argued for bullkitten solutions like removing tp as a whole or flat give free stuff to everybody like in your post tolun because as you said this doesnt solve anything but things could be done to close the gaps between real gameplay and tp gameplay rewards

I’ll just quote Phys because he was getting it and how material traders worked in gw1 is a possible solution

“they already did it in gw1, and yea, the things that no one wanted were super cheap, and things people wanted were somewhat expensive. But thats basically what we have in GW2 now.
the main difference is, they didnt design the whole reward system so that if you didnt enter the gold earning game you couldnt get much.

sure ectos were expensive, but you could get your own ectos through targeted play2-3 per run. Want rubies? well you can go beat these dunegeons for a pretty good chance at rubies. Want obsidian shards? go play this area. Dont want to do any of that? well then you can earn gold.
See the main difference is you could actually choose to earn/progress through gameplay, and they didnt design the amount of items you needed based or methods of aquisition based on how many junk items they had.

If i decide i want to hunt 250 powerful blood? i will end up with probably 10 times as much things i didnt want on the path to get it. And at the end of the day? it would be substantially faster not to actually do that, but to earn via TP or hardcore farming technique 100.

I mean of course ectoplasm hustlers were still making money and wealth hand over fist, but the game wasnt designed around what they were doing."

Wikie.2610:

If i decide i want to hunt 250 powerful blood? i will end up with probably 10 times as much things i didnt want on the path to get it. And at the end of the day? it would be substantially faster not to actually do that, but to earn via TP or hardcore farming technique 100.

The TP actually makes this problem less bad, since you can sell the extra items at a fair price to help buy the items you actually want.

It sounds like you’re actually arguing that the game is just too grindy — not that the TP spoils the game, but that the TP let the designers excuse the excessive grindy-ness of end-game rewards. That’s a rather different argument, though.

linuxotaku.4731:

Wikie.2610:

If i decide i want to hunt 250 powerful blood? i will end up with probably 10 times as much things i didnt want on the path to get it. And at the end of the day? it would be substantially faster not to actually do that, but to earn via TP or hardcore farming technique 100.

The TP actually makes this problem less bad, since you can sell the extra items at a fair price to help buy the items you actually want.

It sounds like you’re actually arguing that the game is just too grindy — not that the TP spoils the game, but that the TP let the designers excuse the excessive grindy-ness of end-game rewards. That’s a rather different argument, though.

you see what you said there is exactly the point. Even if you decide to target a specific items, you must use the TP in order to get it effeciently. You really dont have a choice but to use the TP, or you will never get anything done.
And this is why you basically HAVE to go to the tp to succeed. You must sell all the crap you dont want, and you have very little ability to play in ways to target things you do want.

these two facts combine to make the game more of gold game.
your reward for playing is gold (because most items you get must be sold since they have no value, and take up space)
the things you want, you will never find purposefully (most times) or not enough to fill your need. (someone mentioned crafting) so you need gold.

so this establishes that all play ends up being about getting gold.
So as an intellegient player you say, well all im getting is gold anyhow, whats the most effecient way to get gold. Well that be the TP.

and voila, you no longer have any reward for actually playing the game itself. Even most people who believe in the TP in this thread say they get rich on the TP and then play the rest of the game with the crappy rewards.

So yeah the tp is the players way of getting around a really crappy reward/goal structure.

phys.7689:

linuxotaku.4731:

Wikie.2610:

If i decide i want to hunt 250 powerful blood? i will end up with probably 10 times as much things i didnt want on the path to get it. And at the end of the day? it would be substantially faster not to actually do that, but to earn via TP or hardcore farming technique 100.

The TP actually makes this problem less bad, since you can sell the extra items at a fair price to help buy the items you actually want.

It sounds like you’re actually arguing that the game is just too grindy — not that the TP spoils the game, but that the TP let the designers excuse the excessive grindy-ness of end-game rewards. That’s a rather different argument, though.

you see what you said there is exactly the point. Even if you decide to target a specific items, you must use the TP in order to get it effeciently. You really dont have a choice but to use the TP, or you will never get anything done.
And this is why you basically HAVE to go to the tp to succeed. You must sell all the crap you dont want, and you have very little ability to play in ways to target things you do want.

these two facts combine to make the game more of gold game.
your reward for playing is gold (because most items you get must be sold since they have no value, and take up space)
the things you want, you will never find purposefully (most times) or not enough to fill your need. (someone mentioned crafting) so you need gold.

so this establishes that all play ends up being about getting gold.
So as an intellegient player you say, well all im getting is gold anyhow, whats the most effecient way to get gold. Well that be the TP.

and voila, you no longer have any reward for actually playing the game itself. Even most people who believe in the TP in this thread say they get rich on the TP and then play the rest of the game with the crappy rewards.

So yeah the tp is the players way of getting around a really crappy reward/goal structure.

If you have a problem with the reward structure, why dont you open a new topic about it to discuss it there instead of blaming the TP for all evil in this game?

I would be surprised if the average income of someone trading on the TP is higher, per hour, than that of someone farming endgame content (champ trains, world events, etc). Yes, very successful traders can make enormous amounts of money, but your median trader probably ends up losing money on trades.

Ensign.2189:

I would be surprised if the average income of someone trading on the TP is higher, per hour, than that of someone farming endgame content (champ trains, world events, etc). Yes, very successful traders can make enormous amounts of money, but your median trader probably ends up losing money on trades.

The median trader loses 15% on every trade.

Wanze.8410:

phys.7689:

linuxotaku.4731:

Wikie.2610:

If i decide i want to hunt 250 powerful blood? i will end up with probably 10 times as much things i didnt want on the path to get it. And at the end of the day? it would be substantially faster not to actually do that, but to earn via TP or hardcore farming technique 100.

The TP actually makes this problem less bad, since you can sell the extra items at a fair price to help buy the items you actually want.

It sounds like you’re actually arguing that the game is just too grindy — not that the TP spoils the game, but that the TP let the designers excuse the excessive grindy-ness of end-game rewards. That’s a rather different argument, though.

you see what you said there is exactly the point. Even if you decide to target a specific items, you must use the TP in order to get it effeciently. You really dont have a choice but to use the TP, or you will never get anything done.
And this is why you basically HAVE to go to the tp to succeed. You must sell all the crap you dont want, and you have very little ability to play in ways to target things you do want.

these two facts combine to make the game more of gold game.
your reward for playing is gold (because most items you get must be sold since they have no value, and take up space)
the things you want, you will never find purposefully (most times) or not enough to fill your need. (someone mentioned crafting) so you need gold.

so this establishes that all play ends up being about getting gold.
So as an intellegient player you say, well all im getting is gold anyhow, whats the most effecient way to get gold. Well that be the TP.

and voila, you no longer have any reward for actually playing the game itself. Even most people who believe in the TP in this thread say they get rich on the TP and then play the rest of the game with the crappy rewards.

So yeah the tp is the players way of getting around a really crappy reward/goal structure.

If you have a problem with the reward structure, why dont you open a new topic about it to discuss it there instead of blaming the TP for all evil in this game?

the TP isnt responsible for all evil, and this is still thread appropriate. The TP is something you are required to use by the item/reward design. Should an appropriate thread appear elsewhere i will comment on it, or if a red name says it would be more appropriate elsewhere. All evidence i have had in the past is that any thread discussing economy has been moved here.

Wanze.8410:

Ensign.2189:

I would be surprised if the average income of someone trading on the TP is higher, per hour, than that of someone farming endgame content (champ trains, world events, etc). Yes, very successful traders can make enormous amounts of money, but your median trader probably ends up losing money on trades.

The median trader loses 15% on every trade.

where do you get this idea from? median would generally require specific data.
who do you consider a “trader” in this case?

while it would be true that overall, 15% of gold is taken from every transaction, that doesnt necessarily translate

Ensign.2189:

I would be surprised if the average income of someone trading on the TP is higher, per hour, than that of someone farming endgame content (champ trains, world events, etc). Yes, very successful traders can make enormous amounts of money, but your median trader probably ends up losing money on trades.

if by trader you mean anyone using the tp at all, there would definately be losers, but if you mean actual people who play the tp, i highly doubt it. They tend to quit if they consistently lose.
As far as how much they make? hard to say, but when i was doing it, i was up to about 10 gold an hour with like 80-130 gold start up capital. At the same time the champ train if i sold everything would average 8 an hour. if i had more capital i could have made more money though. I was actually not being very TP effecient. I highly doubt i was one of the better TP traders

phys.7689:

Ensign.2189:

I would be surprised if the average income of someone trading on the TP is higher, per hour, than that of someone farming endgame content (champ trains, world events, etc). Yes, very successful traders can make enormous amounts of money, but your median trader probably ends up losing money on trades.

if by trader you mean anyone using the tp at all, there would definately be losers, but if you mean actual people who play the tp, i highly doubt it. They tend to quit if they consistently lose.
As far as how much they make? hard to say, but when i was doing it, i was up to about 10 gold an hour with like 80-130 gold start up capital. At the same time the champ train if i sold everything would average 8 an hour. if i had more capital i could have made more money though. I was actually not being very TP effecient. I highly doubt i was one of the better TP traders

Most people who try to play the trading post (that is counting by participant rather than trade) participate in panic buying (and probably selling too) where something appears popular and they jump on the bandwagon. At that point, it’s already too late and they’ll lose money.

Aside from flipping, I think (less sure of this) that most market participants (a much larger pool) and perhaps most trades involve the seller losing at least ~15% compared with the inherent value of the item (bags, items for salvage, etc) — since if there was no value to be extracted, far fewer of the items would be purchased.

Anyway, none of this changes the fact that the reward structure in GW2 is as it is (play as you like and you’ll slowly make progress toward a variety of different cosmetic skins; if you want to go faster, you can sell undesired items or find other ways to make money … progress may be unsatisfying because it’s so slow without trading) … I just think that the Trading Post isn’t the root of that problem.

linuxotaku.4731:

Anyway, none of this changes the fact that the reward structure in GW2 is as it is (play as you like and you’ll slowly make progress toward a variety of different cosmetic skins; if you want to go faster, you can sell undesired items or find other ways to make money … progress may be unsatisfying because it’s so slow without trading) … I just think that the Trading Post isn’t the root of that problem.

The TP makes the process go faster… imagine if every rare/exotic (including precursors) was bound to you (character or account) and if you got something you couldn’t use the only alternative was to vendor it for like 4s. If Anet were to dictate what the price of every item in the game was to be, this is the kind of thing that would happen.

The alternative is to keep playing the game the way you want to play, salvage unneeded gear for luck to increase MF, and when you get a desirable drop sell it to jump forward towards your goals.

Malediktus.9250:

I agree, the TP is simply horrible and the people who defend it are just too lazy to earn gold the real way.
And Anet is too lazy to think of more imaginative ways to add gold sinks to the game than depending on TP moguls (15% taxes add up). The anti inflationary mechanism is anets main argument in favor of this TP crap.

Can you picture how remarkably stupid an MMO with no trading system would be?

Take the pictures of people with thousands of Bloodstone Dust that they can do nothing with and multiply that by several hundred thousand.

The TP is a tool that you can use to trade away the stuff you don’t want for the stuff you do want. It benefits all players of the game and the deflation is an added perk.

mtpelion.4562:

Malediktus.9250:

I agree, the TP is simply horrible and the people who defend it are just too lazy to earn gold the real way.
And Anet is too lazy to think of more imaginative ways to add gold sinks to the game than depending on TP moguls (15% taxes add up). The anti inflationary mechanism is anets main argument in favor of this TP crap.

Can you picture how remarkably stupid an MMO with no trading system would be?

Take the pictures of people with thousands of Bloodstone Dust that they can do nothing with and multiply that by several hundred thousand.

The TP is a tool that you can use to trade away the stuff you don’t want for the stuff you do want. It benefits all players of the game and the deflation is an added perk.

I played WoW as if it had no Trading System. I vendored everything, and knew the best thing to make to vendor for every single crafting mat. Just did it for fun, but it was certainly doable.

Lankybrit.4598:

mtpelion.4562:

Malediktus.9250:

I agree, the TP is simply horrible and the people who defend it are just too lazy to earn gold the real way.
And Anet is too lazy to think of more imaginative ways to add gold sinks to the game than depending on TP moguls (15% taxes add up). The anti inflationary mechanism is anets main argument in favor of this TP crap.

Can you picture how remarkably stupid an MMO with no trading system would be?

Take the pictures of people with thousands of Bloodstone Dust that they can do nothing with and multiply that by several hundred thousand.

The TP is a tool that you can use to trade away the stuff you don’t want for the stuff you do want. It benefits all players of the game and the deflation is an added perk.

I played WoW as if it had no Trading System. I vendored everything, and knew the best thing to make to vendor for every single crafting mat. Just did it for fun, but it was certainly doable.

Choosing to abstain from the economy is different from a game having no economy though.

Malediktus.9250:

I agree, the TP is simply horrible and the people who defend it are just too lazy to earn gold the real way.
And Anet is too lazy to think of more imaginative ways to add gold sinks to the game than depending on TP moguls (15% taxes add up). The anti inflationary mechanism is anets main argument in favor of this TP crap.

I could easily flip your comment to say that TP complainers are just jealous that they’re unable to profit like the top 1% of players.

If you have an issue with the Trading Post, please provide a valid argument against it. All of us will be happy to debate your concerns. But so far, the only complaints about the TP are related to jealousy, lack of understanding about the in game economy, or personal preferences.

mtpelion.4562:

Malediktus.9250:

I agree, the TP is simply horrible and the people who defend it are just too lazy to earn gold the real way.
And Anet is too lazy to think of more imaginative ways to add gold sinks to the game than depending on TP moguls (15% taxes add up). The anti inflationary mechanism is anets main argument in favor of this TP crap.

Can you picture how remarkably stupid an MMO with no trading system would be?

Take the pictures of people with thousands of Bloodstone Dust that they can do nothing with and multiply that by several hundred thousand.

The TP is a tool that you can use to trade away the stuff you don’t want for the stuff you do want. It benefits all players of the game and the deflation is an added perk.

Face to face trading and mailing should be the only trading like in TESO. It is perfect there.

Malediktus.9250:

Face to face trading and mailing should be the only trading like in TESO. It is perfect there.

Then go play there? At least until it closes down in the next 8-10 months.

That kind of horrifically bad economy will strangle the game to death. It is inefficient and, quite bluntly, stupid.

EDIT: I should add that if there are only a few things that CAN drop (like say, no more than 100 different items or so), player to player trading could work. It would still be inefficient (see Spamadan), but you could limp along with it for a good while.

Malediktus.9250:

mtpelion.4562:

Malediktus.9250:

I agree, the TP is simply horrible and the people who defend it are just too lazy to earn gold the real way.
And Anet is too lazy to think of more imaginative ways to add gold sinks to the game than depending on TP moguls (15% taxes add up). The anti inflationary mechanism is anets main argument in favor of this TP crap.

Can you picture how remarkably stupid an MMO with no trading system would be?

Take the pictures of people with thousands of Bloodstone Dust that they can do nothing with and multiply that by several hundred thousand.

The TP is a tool that you can use to trade away the stuff you don’t want for the stuff you do want. It benefits all players of the game and the deflation is an added perk.

Face to face trading and mailing should be the only trading like in TESO. It is perfect there.

It might be perfect there but TESO isn’t GW2 so that should in no way make anyone think a TP-less GW2 would be perfect like TESO. That kind of logic is not logic at all.

wwfam.2495:

so you are saying that you playing the TP is negatively impacting your game experience and you are aware that it is negatively impacting your game experience,
but you continue to choose to do it anyway despite easily having the option of just stopping?

my brain hurts

….you forgot that it must be Anet’s fault this is all happening to him…..

OUCH!

Obtena.7952:

Malediktus.9250:

mtpelion.4562:

Malediktus.9250:

I agree, the TP is simply horrible and the people who defend it are just too lazy to earn gold the real way.
And Anet is too lazy to think of more imaginative ways to add gold sinks to the game than depending on TP moguls (15% taxes add up). The anti inflationary mechanism is anets main argument in favor of this TP crap.

Can you picture how remarkably stupid an MMO with no trading system would be?

Take the pictures of people with thousands of Bloodstone Dust that they can do nothing with and multiply that by several hundred thousand.

The TP is a tool that you can use to trade away the stuff you don’t want for the stuff you do want. It benefits all players of the game and the deflation is an added perk.

Face to face trading and mailing should be the only trading like in TESO. It is perfect there.

It might be perfect there but TESO isn’t GW2 so that should in no way make anyone think a TP-less GW2 would be perfect like TESO. That kind of logic is not logic at all.

Oh people want a TP in TESO too, just look at the forums there. But no true MMO should have a trading post which makes face to face trading obsolete. It takes a major element out of any good MMO. But just because people are lazy and want something, doesnt mean its a good thing to have. Because humanity is just lazy in general and shouldnt always get whats most convenient and effective for them.

mtpelion.4562:

Malediktus.9250:

Face to face trading and mailing should be the only trading like in TESO. It is perfect there.

Then go play there? At least until it closes down in the next 8-10 months.

That kind of horrifically bad economy will strangle the game to death. It is inefficient and, quite bluntly, stupid.

EDIT: I should add that if there are only a few things that CAN drop (like say, no more than 100 different items or so), player to player trading could work. It would still be inefficient (see Spamadan), but you could limp along with it for a good while.

ehhh TESO may rise or fall, but economic systems dont make or break a video game, unless its an economic video game.

Malediktus.9250:

Obtena.7952:

Malediktus.9250:

mtpelion.4562:

Malediktus.9250:

I agree, the TP is simply horrible and the people who defend it are just too lazy to earn gold the real way.
And Anet is too lazy to think of more imaginative ways to add gold sinks to the game than depending on TP moguls (15% taxes add up). The anti inflationary mechanism is anets main argument in favor of this TP crap.

Can you picture how remarkably stupid an MMO with no trading system would be?

Take the pictures of people with thousands of Bloodstone Dust that they can do nothing with and multiply that by several hundred thousand.

The TP is a tool that you can use to trade away the stuff you don’t want for the stuff you do want. It benefits all players of the game and the deflation is an added perk.

Face to face trading and mailing should be the only trading like in TESO. It is perfect there.

It might be perfect there but TESO isn’t GW2 so that should in no way make anyone think a TP-less GW2 would be perfect like TESO. That kind of logic is not logic at all.

Oh people want a TP in TESO too, just look at the forums there. But no true MMO should have a trading post which makes face to face trading obsolete. It takes a major element out of any good MMO. But just because people are lazy and want something, doesnt mean its a good thing to have. Because humanity is just lazy in general and shouldnt always get whats most convenient and effective for them.

While I agree that not enabling direct trade between players is a deficiency, it’s not a NECESSARY element of a good MMO either. Think a little more and you might see why Anet has not enabled this (and it doesn’t have anything to do with laziness or convenience.)

This thread went from talking about non-existent problems with the TP, to talk about TESO. I’m wondering, is it really considered “off-topic”, if there wasn’t a topic to begin with?

I think that RNG killed the real MMO fun here, and the TP lets a select few work around that. Everyone wants shinies, with Legendaries being the ultimate shinies. What ruins the ‘fun’ in getting one is the RIDICULOUS RNG that was put in our way.

ONLY skill in the TP lets you EARN a legendary, and that is probably what brings the ire of everyone against the TP barrons. Take Charged Lodestones for example to craft one piece of a Legendary. The only way to get them is to spend countless hours killing sparks. There is no skill or fun there, just mind numbing grind. This pretty much forces everyone to buy them from the lucky and to come up with the 300 gold you need, the ‘best’ way is playing the TP. (Same argument applies to precursors but I think everyone agrees they where a monumental failure.)

Gold IS the most important thing in this game BECAUSE of RNG. That makes the TP the most important SKILL in the game, hence all the threads against it.

Elric Of Melnibone.4781:

I think that RNG killed the real MMO fun here, and the TP lets a select few work around that. Everyone wants shinies, with Legendaries being the ultimate shinies. What ruins the ‘fun’ in getting one is the RIDICULOUS RNG that was put in our way.

ONLY skill in the TP lets you EARN a legendary, and that is probably what brings the ire of everyone against the TP barrons. Take Charged Lodestones for example to craft one piece of a Legendary. The only way to get them is to spend countless hours killing sparks. There is no skill or fun there, just mind numbing grind. This pretty much forces everyone to buy them from the lucky and to come up with the 300 gold you need, the ‘best’ way is playing the TP. (Same argument applies to precursors but I think everyone agrees they where a monumental failure.)

Gold IS the most important thing in this game BECAUSE of RNG. That makes the TP the most important SKILL in the game, hence all the threads against it.

Charged Lodestones also drop from CoE chests, and from champ bags — I’d say that this is an example where ANet has improved things.

Shinnies aren’t the most important thing in the game, they’re just one possible end-game goal. :-)

I would assert that even those who aren’t playing the trading post will ultimately be able to afford these shinnies — it just takes a while, and you have to be willing to sell the drops you’re not actually interested in. But if you make 10g/day (fairly easy), you’d be able to buy a legendary within a year at current prices … prices may change, but 10g/day is also a very conservative estimate. So there’s no need to grind at the FGS champ train for 400 hours — you can get decent rewards for any combination of:

• word bosses
• dungeons (even fractals, though those are worse than dungeons by time)
• wvw (zerging, you get much less for defending, scouting, or tagging siege unfortunately)
• open world exploring / harvesting / farming drops (depends on the area of course, but ascended equipment makes these decent in most maps)

sPvP has PvE rewards now, but I haven’t played it enough since the patch to be able to assert that they’re good. OTOH, if you enjoy it, you’ll get something while doing it.

Elric Of Melnibone.4781:

I think that RNG killed the real MMO fun here, and the TP lets a select few work around that. Everyone wants shinies, with Legendaries being the ultimate shinies. What ruins the ‘fun’ in getting one is the RIDICULOUS RNG that was put in our way.

ONLY skill in the TP lets you EARN a legendary, and that is probably what brings the ire of everyone against the TP barrons. Take Charged Lodestones for example to craft one piece of a Legendary. The only way to get them is to spend countless hours killing sparks. There is no skill or fun there, just mind numbing grind. This pretty much forces everyone to buy them from the lucky and to come up with the 300 gold you need, the ‘best’ way is playing the TP. (Same argument applies to precursors but I think everyone agrees they where a monumental failure.)

Gold IS the most important thing in this game BECAUSE of RNG. That makes the TP the most important SKILL in the game, hence all the threads against it.

That’s not really fair or true … even if RNG drops were in ten’s of percent chances, you STILL wouldn’t get specific items you want or need often enough from it to avoid TP for the specific gear. This is the part people don’t understand .. TP actually enables people to obtain gear, regardless of the drop rates due to RNG.

I stat I would like to see is what percentage of people running around with a Legendary actually ‘earned’ it without flipping items in the TP. The two and a half I have where not from drops (the best drop I have gotten since beta was an ascended armor chest), but from crafting exotic armor for profit before ascended armor ruined that market.

Elric Of Melnibone.4781:

I stat I would like to see is what percentage of people running around with a Legendary actually ‘earned’ it without flipping items in the TP. The two and a half I have where not from drops (the best drop I have gotten since beta was an ascended armor chest), but from crafting exotic armor for profit before ascended armor ruined that market.

I feel pretty safe stating that 0% of Legendary weapons were created using absolutely no interaction with the trading post.

mtpelion.4562:

Elric Of Melnibone.4781:

I stat I would like to see is what percentage of people running around with a Legendary actually ‘earned’ it without flipping items in the TP. The two and a half I have where not from drops (the best drop I have gotten since beta was an ascended armor chest), but from crafting exotic armor for profit before ascended armor ruined that market.

I feel pretty safe stating that 0% of Legendary weapons were created using absolutely no interaction with the trading post.

That’s not what I am asking. Clearly you will buy some of your ingredients, and sell your unneeded drops, but I am talking about flipping for profit. Buying things you don’t need just for speculation. When I was crafting, I was making on average 50g a day. Now, I have less than 20g in my wallet. Ascended bankrupted me in many ways.

Elric Of Melnibone.4781:

mtpelion.4562:

Elric Of Melnibone.4781:

I stat I would like to see is what percentage of people running around with a Legendary actually ‘earned’ it without flipping items in the TP. The two and a half I have where not from drops (the best drop I have gotten since beta was an ascended armor chest), but from crafting exotic armor for profit before ascended armor ruined that market.

I feel pretty safe stating that 0% of Legendary weapons were created using absolutely no interaction with the trading post.

That’s not what I am asking. Clearly you will buy some of your ingredients, and sell your unneeded drops, but I am talking about flipping for profit. Buying things you don’t need just for speculation. When I was crafting, I was making on average 50g a day. Now, I have less than 20g in my wallet. Ascended bankrupted me in many ways.

I am pretty sure that you also bought the mats for your exotic crafting on the Trading Post. There is pretty little difference in flipping and crafting for profit, except crafting is a little more complicated. And most tp players dont make their bulk of profit with flipping, they do it with speculation, crafting, salvaging and forging, just like you did.

Elric Of Melnibone.4781:

That’s not what I am asking. Clearly you will buy some of your ingredients, and sell your unneeded drops, but I am talking about flipping for profit. Buying things you don’t need just for speculation. When I was crafting, I was making on average 50g a day. Now, I have less than 20g in my wallet. Ascended bankrupted me in many ways.

Margin trading, speculating, buying bags to sell the contents, buying and salvaging to sell the results, and buying materials and selling the crafted results are all forms of flipping. So if you want to exclude those sources of income, then you are left with people who purely farm items/gold.

In this scenario, I feel pretty safe saying that those people make up less than 10% of the Legendary owners, mostly because there aren’t many people who never engage in flipping of some kind.

Wanze.8410:

Elric Of Melnibone.4781:

mtpelion.4562:

Elric Of Melnibone.4781:

I stat I would like to see is what percentage of people running around with a Legendary actually ‘earned’ it without flipping items in the TP. The two and a half I have where not from drops (the best drop I have gotten since beta was an ascended armor chest), but from crafting exotic armor for profit before ascended armor ruined that market.

I feel pretty safe stating that 0% of Legendary weapons were created using absolutely no interaction with the trading post.

That’s not what I am asking. Clearly you will buy some of your ingredients, and sell your unneeded drops, but I am talking about flipping for profit. Buying things you don’t need just for speculation. When I was crafting, I was making on average 50g a day. Now, I have less than 20g in my wallet. Ascended bankrupted me in many ways.

I am pretty sure that you also bought the mats for your exotic crafting on the Trading Post. There is pretty little difference in flipping and crafting for profit, except crafting is a little more complicated. And most tp players dont make their bulk of profit with flipping, they do it with speculation, crafting, salvaging and forging, just like you did.

That I have to agree, crafting is just complicated flipping. Since it’s not like there isn’t a million armor crafter out there.

The way I see it is this. I can pretty much ask in every single mmorpg forum out there and no one will say flipping is a problem in their game. And just about every mmorpg have flipping. So I’m pretty sure it isn’t that hard to design the game so people “wont’ complain about flipping”.

And “Anet trying to sell legendary in cash shop” isn’t a good excuse, because the thousands of cash shop games out there, no players are complaining about flipping too.

It’s similar to the topic about “skipping” in the dungeon forum. Many people are arguing about “weather skipping is ok or not”. But if Anet just design their dungeon so it isn’t skippable, that topic wont’ even come up.

mtpelion.4562:

Elric Of Melnibone.4781:

That’s not what I am asking. Clearly you will buy some of your ingredients, and sell your unneeded drops, but I am talking about flipping for profit. Buying things you don’t need just for speculation. When I was crafting, I was making on average 50g a day. Now, I have less than 20g in my wallet. Ascended bankrupted me in many ways.

Margin trading, speculating, buying bags to sell the contents, buying and salvaging to sell the results, and buying materials and selling the crafted results are all forms of flipping. So if you want to exclude those sources of income, then you are left with people who purely farm items/gold.

In this scenario, I feel pretty safe saying that those people make up less than 10% of the Legendary owners, mostly because there aren’t many people who never engage in flipping of some kind.

Some of those shouldnt be considered “flipping” because of the gambling element.
Since flipping is a new term in the GW2 context, you can define it how you wish, but i think crafting is closer to manufacturing, mostly because you have to actually make the item. You are not simply buying and reselling, you are buying, then transforming the item into something else, then selling it.

Generally one wouldnt consider a car manufacturer as a middleman. Car salesman, yeah.
Essentially i would define a flipper as the type of merchant who buys items from some people and sells the same items to other people. IRL these people provide services like convenience, knowledge, bulk purchasing, or keeping aware for deals. In game, i guess their main service is liquidity, and velocity of transaction.