Guild Wars 2

Aidan Savage.2078:

IKaikiasI.1932:

It is absolutely true that the tp destroys GW2 for me.

There. Now it’s correct. Now, I’m going to disregard the rest of your post because I’m having plenty of fun, and still making money. You arent? Well, not my problem.

If you quote, do it right. My original sentence:
“It is absolutely true that the tp destroys GW2.”

I’m glad such a post came. You proved my point.

And if you still want to disregard what I say, then maybe you just could do it.

IKaikiasI.1932:

Aidan Savage.2078:

IKaikiasI.1932:

It is absolutely true that the tp destroys GW2 for me.

There. Now it’s correct. Now, I’m going to disregard the rest of your post because I’m having plenty of fun, and still making money. You arent? Well, not my problem.

If you quote, do it right. My original sentence:
“It is absolutely true that the tp destroys GW2.”

I’m glad such a post came. You proved my point.

And if you still want to disregard what I say, then maybe you just could do it.

The original sentence is incorrect. Why? I’m having fun despite the TP. Others are having fun despite the TP. Making broad generalizations like you’re doing does not help support your argument. It just makes it flimsy.

The point is NOT that people have no fun anymore while playing Guild Wars 2 or the Economy Simulator which is called Trading Post. The point is that the Game itself doesn’t satisfy. This is a difference.

Diablo 3, Skyrim, Dark Souls 2 and so on. In these games you can only achieve something if you play the game. And when you reach your aim, it is absolutely satisfying. In Guild Wars 2 it’s different.

Because of the Economy Simulator, the game has huge imbalances with loot. If you spend houndreds of hours, it doesn’t mean you achieve anything. You need luck to get gold or you play tp (“doing nothing”). An example for the imbalance: 10800 silk scrap (36 bolt of damask x 300 silk scrap/bolt of silk) for an ascended light armor set. To say it again, it is ONE example.

I want to go back to my first post. Does the Trading Post destroy Guild Wars 2? Yes, because the actual game is completely deformed by the Trading Post. Do people have fun with these influences? The barons and economists for sure. Other people? I wouldn’t bet on it.

I still have fun with PvP/WvW/PvE, but I’m defenitely not happy with this situation. It’s kind of grueling to see how the tp makes the loot you got from the real game to trash.

Without the Economy Simulator and consequently the loot imbalance, Guild Wars 2 would be still the best game since release. (And instead of fixing Trading Post issues, Anet could have fixed all the bugs already)

IKaikiasI.1932:

The point is NOT that people have no fun anymore while playing Guild Wars 2 or the Economy Simulator which is called Trading Post. The point is that the Game itself doesn’t satisfy. This is a difference.

Diablo 3, Skyrim, Dark Souls 2 and so on. In these games you can only achieve something if you play the game. And when you reach your aim, it is absolutely satisfying. In Guild Wars 2 it’s different.

That sounds like the same thing to me. If you aren’t having fun, how is that different than the game not satisfying you? That’s the whole purpose for gaming isn’kitten To have fun?

Regardless, You can achieve something if you play GW2 as well, so your claim that GW2 is different from other games you ‘play to achieve something’ is nonsense. Loot is a direct result of playing. If there are inbalances in rewards for getting loot, that’s by player’s personal choice/preferences since there is no mechanic ingame limiting the content players have access to.

IKaikiasI.1932:

I still have fun with PvP/WvW/PvE

It seems to be that you have fun with this game, but you’re just upset that you’re not good with power trading. That’s ok. Not everyone is good at everything. I never did complete Tribulation Mode in SAB. I’m not good with hard mode jumping puzzles. But you don’t see me saying that Tribulation SAB is ruining the game.

In short, I’m jealous of good jumping puzzle players, just as you’re jealous of good TP players. But the game goes on!

Imagine a video of a Trading Post player with a play by play commentator.

Maybe the GW2 end game gameplay is just terrible, so making TP the endgame is a good thing.

I wonder how many people will still do dungeons if it dont’ give reward.

And the fact people start doing spvp just because of the rewards, means people are all in for the reward and not game play.

i still logon to farm, and my friend keeps whispering me is it fun when I’m farming. I suppose getting reward is fun, but if you remove it, I dont’ think the actual gameplay is fun. That is especially true when the core game havn’t beeen update in 2 years.

IKaikiasI.1932:

The point is NOT that people have no fun anymore while playing Guild Wars 2 or the Economy Simulator which is called Trading Post. The point is that the Game itself doesn’t satisfy. This is a difference.

Diablo 3, Skyrim, Dark Souls 2 and so on. In these games you can only achieve something if you play the game. And when you reach your aim, it is absolutely satisfying. In Guild Wars 2 it’s different.

Because of the Economy Simulator, the game has huge imbalances with loot. If you spend houndreds of hours, it doesn’t mean you achieve anything. You need luck to get gold or you play tp (“doing nothing”). An example for the imbalance: 10800 silk scrap (36 bolt of damask x 300 silk scrap/bolt of silk) for an ascended light armor set. To say it again, it is ONE example.

I want to go back to my first post. Does the Trading Post destroy Guild Wars 2? Yes, because the actual game is completely deformed by the Trading Post. Do people have fun with these influences? The barons and economists for sure. Other people? I wouldn’t bet on it.

I still have fun with PvP/WvW/PvE, but I’m defenitely not happy with this situation. It’s kind of grueling to see how the tp makes the loot you got from the real game to trash.

Without the Economy Simulator and consequently the loot imbalance, Guild Wars 2 would be still the best game since release. (And instead of fixing Trading Post issues, Anet could have fixed all the bugs already)

You can’t have it all! So others are better than you in making money, we’re on the same boat. But I chose not to make it an issue, because it’s not an issue for me. I mean, if I do my best in making money, it’ll be mediocre. That means, I still can’t compete with those who have the smarts to make money off TP.

However, as long as I can continue to enjoy and beat contents with whatever money I have, then it’s all good. I still use full Lv78 Exotic Armor since I first learned how to play zerker a month after launch of the game. It’s still the same set that I use in most aspects of game except PvP. I do:
WvW, Dungeons, FotM, EotM, World Boss, Open World DEs with these gears WITHOUT hardships nor problems.

Lately though, I am moving towards ascended armor. It might take me years, but meh, I can easily do stuff with my Lv78 gear; I am not so excited nor in a hurry to get full ascended. I do fine, in fact, more than fine, with my current gear.

So other players are millionaire and parading their stuff, guess what, I don’t mind them and I could care less about them. Live and let live, they don’t harm me. Sure, I don’t have shiney stuff, but whatever they can cut, I can too….

Smooth Penguin.5294:

It seems to be that you have fun with this game, but you’re just upset that you’re not good with power trading. That’s ok. In short, I’m jealous of good jumping puzzle players, just as you’re jealous of good TP players. But the game goes on!

your argument is invalid because this game and most reward systems in it are all about gold and TP or deeply connected with it
the puzzle thing you mentioned earns next to nothing same with most of the whole freaking game
you and I and some other people can afford most things in the game including legendaries just because we spend few minutes on tp reposting orders and later selling stuff basically huge reward for nothing just for typing in few numbers
and rewards for the:
best puzzle jumpers get big nothing
best pvpers get big nothing
best commanders in wvw bringing glory to your server big nothing
…well ok they will get some greenies maybe ocassionally a 1g exotic

I’m at that point where I dont even care for loot outside of tp I get an exotic and I’m like meh whatever whether its a 1g or 10g exo it still means nothing to me compared to what I get from tp daily
In gw 1 whenever you looted something nice it always meant something and players had a reason to go out adventuring just because they hoped to maybe drop something nice, here even if they would it would still be some crap just to go on tp and get rid of it …so I can go there buy it for cheap reforge salvage it or whatever and make more money than they did with items THEY looted with actual work

What you fail to recognize is that the way the game works actually caters to everyone, even the most casual player. Loot rewards don’t work for people that don’t play often or can’t commit to game schedules. That is why his argument is completely valid; What he’s saying is that unlike ‘loot reward’ games, you can do what you like and earn what you want doing it.

You don’t seem to get what motivates people to play the game and do the things they do. Jumping puzzle people get rewards; there is a chest at the end of almost every puzzle; the best PVPers also get rewarded in more ways than just gold. YTour examples aren’t very well thought out.

Your complaint seems misdirected: You seem unhappy with how rewards are given in the game; TP has nothing to do with that. ;

Obtena.7952:

Your complaint seems misdirected: You seem unhappy with how rewards are given in the game; TP has nothing to do with that. ;

Also, while Anet can reduce or increase supply they cannot directly control demand for items, and if the price for something is too high/low for an individual player’s tastes, messing with the supply without addressing demand is not a good long-term solution.

Once upon a time, the TP was stuffed with blue and green equipment being sold for around vendor price – 15% because too much of it was provided as a side effect of crafting and playing the game. Players ended up with way more gear than they needed and competition to sell it for whatever they could get reduced the prices to the point where it was better to vendor the items you crafted than sell to other players.

When they changed Magic Find to an account-wide stat they tied it to this gear by making it possible to increase MF through salvaging this otherwise useless gear. The TP quickly sold out of the cheapest items and for several months it was profitable to sell the gear on the TP. Ascended gear crafting, changes to runes/sigils and the addition of the wardrobe also shifts demand for certain items, but all of these are temporary situations.

Most rares and exotics are relatively cheap because they drop more often than people need them to. The majority get broken down for materials like exo globs, or forged in hopes of getting a specific item (precursors). They already provide methods guaranteed to offer these items so if you want more of them you need only do those activities that already provide them.

It’s simply not possible to constantly add new game statistics or gear tiers to fuel demand for these items and force prices up. Nor is it prudent to oversupply them and crash the markets because a few individuals don’t want to do the content that already provides them. The only thing you can do is decide on what your goals are within the game and look for ways to reach that goal that you enjoy. Realize that you share this game with hundreds of thousands of other people, perhaps even millions of other players, and that your own goals and experiences, while different from those other players’, are not more important or more valid than their goals and experiences.

The common thread to these complaints that I see is that those making the complaints do not seem to consider the experiences of other players. Statements like “I will never get a precursor to drop” ignores the fact that all the precursors in the game came from somewhere, the TP does not create them some other player pulled it from the forge or the bonus chest from a world boss kill or a random mob. Everyone has that chance every time he plays the game. It cannot get any more fair than this without crashing the game’s economy, so learn to work within the rules of the game instead of insisting that the rules be changed for your own benefit.

tolunart.2095:

Obtena.7952:

Your complaint seems misdirected: You seem unhappy with how rewards are given in the game; TP has nothing to do with that. ;

Also, while Anet can reduce or increase supply they cannot directly control demand for items, and if the price for something is too high/low for an individual player’s tastes, messing with the supply without addressing demand is not a good long-term solution.

Once upon a time, the TP was stuffed with blue and green equipment being sold for around vendor price – 15% because too much of it was provided as a side effect of crafting and playing the game. Players ended up with way more gear than they needed and competition to sell it for whatever they could get reduced the prices to the point where it was better to vendor the items you crafted than sell to other players.

When they changed Magic Find to an account-wide stat they tied it to this gear by making it possible to increase MF through salvaging this otherwise useless gear. The TP quickly sold out of the cheapest items and for several months it was profitable to sell the gear on the TP. Ascended gear crafting, changes to runes/sigils and the addition of the wardrobe also shifts demand for certain items, but all of these are temporary situations.

Most rares and exotics are relatively cheap because they drop more often than people need them to. The majority get broken down for materials like exo globs, or forged in hopes of getting a specific item (precursors). They already provide methods guaranteed to offer these items so if you want more of them you need only do those activities that already provide them.

It’s simply not possible to constantly add new game statistics or gear tiers to fuel demand for these items and force prices up. Nor is it prudent to oversupply them and crash the markets because a few individuals don’t want to do the content that already provides them. The only thing you can do is decide on what your goals are within the game and look for ways to reach that goal that you enjoy. Realize that you share this game with hundreds of thousands of other people, perhaps even millions of other players, and that your own goals and experiences, while different from those other players’, are not more important or more valid than their goals and experiences.

The common thread to these complaints that I see is that those making the complaints do not seem to consider the experiences of other players. Statements like “I will never get a precursor to drop” ignores the fact that all the precursors in the game came from somewhere, the TP does not create them some other player pulled it from the forge or the bonus chest from a world boss kill or a random mob. Everyone has that chance every time he plays the game. It cannot get any more fair than this without crashing the game’s economy, so learn to work within the rules of the game instead of insisting that the rules be changed for your own benefit.

actually there are renewable methods for giving items value, But to be honest, they give out too many items too easily, and unintentionally, so they tend to have to do these massive destruction based mechanisms to generate demand.

even if when they do come up with items that can continue to suck out the supply, they generally have to make it with material requirements that dissuade people from even bothering.

But yeah there are ways, but it would cost money and development time, and they probably figure people dont care that much at the end of the day, which is probably accurate.

phys.7689:

even if when they do come up with items that can continue to suck out the supply, they generally have to make it with material requirements that dissuade people from even bothering.

Such as ascended gear and Legendaries? They did nothing at all for mid-tier crafting mats and assorted items like dyes and silver doubloons. Yup.

Salvaging oversupplied gear for MF created a huge demand for the same gear which suddenly made them worth something, and flooded the market with mats which were used to fuel ascended crafting… it’s not a long term solution, but it worked out pretty well for what it was.

Now the wardrobe is increasing demand for Legendaries (and presumably Ascended weapons to skin them on), which is driving up the prices of precursors and eventually other things that are required to make them.

The sky isn’t falling, the complaints about precursors rising in price are irrelevant because the price is rising because people are buying them, even at the higher prices. This is because a lot of people who weren’t actively working towards a Legendary have realized that with the wardrobe unlock getting a Twilght or Bifrost on their main means 2-3 alts also get one – or the appearance of one, which is what really matters, since no one really cares about putting that much effort into an exotic/ascended weapon. It’s the skin that makes it valuable, and now any staff can be a Bifrost.

But yeah there are ways, but it would cost money and development time, and they probably figure people dont care that much at the end of the day, which is probably accurate.

Yes, it is. Most people are playing the game, not the TP. This is why the situations came about in the first place – such as millions of units of blue/green gear selling at a loss on the TP vs. vendor price. It happened because people were focused on the game (crafting gives me XP, exploring gives me XP, this gear I don’t need is leftovers so I’ll just get rid of it the easiest way possible) and not on making money.

IKaikiasI.1932:

It is absolutely true that the tp destroys GW2.

You present absolutely NO proof of this and thus it is ABSOLUTELY your opinion (which you certainly have a right to). Making opinionated statements SOUND like a fact does not actually make them one. PROVE that it destroys the game….and someone will listen to your claims.

You comparing D3s TP with GW2s TP actually PROVES you really don’t understand how either of them works or how both games treats high end equipment. D3s GOLD TP was FINE until the RL$ TP opened…..that’s what made the game deteriorate. D3 also had no way to allow in-game gold to purchase items on the RL$ TP (sans illegal gold/equipment selling). The comparison is simply not logical and trying to do so brings all your statements into question.

Brother Grimm.5176:

IKaikiasI.1932:

It is absolutely true that the tp destroys GW2.

You present absolutely NO proof of this and thus it is ABSOLUTELY your opinion (which you certainly have a right to). Making opinionated statements SOUND like a fact does not actually make them one. PROVE that it destroys the game….and someone will listen to your claims.

You comparing D3s TP with GW2s TP actually PROVES you really don’t understand how either of them works or how both games treats high end equipment. D3s GOLD TP was FINE until the RL$ TP opened…..that’s what made the game deteriorate. D3 also had no way to allow in-game gold to purchase items on the RL$ TP (sans illegal gold/equipment selling). The comparison is simply not logical and trying to do so brings all your statements into question.

D3 killed the RL$ trade tp long before they killed the TP completely, the RL$ auction house had its own isssues, but the tp was working against the game design in and of itself.

now, in GW2 its not like the TP is inherently bad, its more a fact of the overall economy and reward system is designed to encourage people to desire gold. This is a logical design since they sell gold, but it creates the issue where the main method of achieving things in game is to get gold as fast as possible. For some, that is fun, for others, not so much.

A game revolving around a trading post will not last long. Then again, it may have been intended.

Calae.1738:

A game revolving around a trading post will not last long. Then again, it may have been intended.

Recettear says hello.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

In gw 1 whenever you looted something nice it always meant something and players had a reason to go out adventuring just because they hoped to maybe drop something nice,

Disagree.

PSO? Yes.
GW? No.

Outside of a few dungeon speedruns, there was very little of actual (gold) worth to be looted in GW1. And honestly, outside of minis, there was nothing in the game that really felt worth collecting to me. And considering the cost for some of those, you’d better be into power-trading there as well if you wanted in on it.
A good chunk of my time in GW1 ended up being spent grinding ectos to fund my HoM.

So while I can agree that the state of the TP and the nature of power-trading is annoying and I’d love to see things introduced to curb that trend, I don’t think GW1 is the best example to cite…

Why are you suprised by this, OP? The game has a gem – gold exchange. It’s in Anet’s best interest to not reward people for playing the game.

Anet loves the professional TP traders because those people raise the prices of everything, making it so that the only two avenues to desirable items are playing the broker simulator or whipping out the credit card. Few people have the skill, knowledge or patience to flip items and those who don’t will either pay Anet or remain poor.

Slowpoke.2749:

Why are you suprised by this, OP? The game has a gem – gold exchange. It’s in Anet’s best interest to not reward people for playing the game.

Anet loves the professional TP traders because those people raise the prices of everything, making it so that the only two avenues to desirable items are playing the broker simulator or whipping out the credit card. Few people have the skill, knowledge or patience to flip items and those who don’t will either pay Anet or remain poor.

Professional TP Traders would mean that they sell gold for real money, i dont think Anet has much love for them.

Wanze.8410:

Slowpoke.2749:

Why are you suprised by this, OP? The game has a gem – gold exchange. It’s in Anet’s best interest to not reward people for playing the game.

Anet loves the professional TP traders because those people raise the prices of everything, making it so that the only two avenues to desirable items are playing the broker simulator or whipping out the credit card. Few people have the skill, knowledge or patience to flip items and those who don’t will either pay Anet or remain poor.

Professional TP Traders would mean that they sell gold for real money, i dont think Anet has much love for them.

Since you’re so good with the TP, that means you’re probably the reason why we don’t have mounts. Just saying…

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Wanze.8410:

Slowpoke.2749:

Why are you suprised by this, OP? The game has a gem – gold exchange. It’s in Anet’s best interest to not reward people for playing the game.

Anet loves the professional TP traders because those people raise the prices of everything, making it so that the only two avenues to desirable items are playing the broker simulator or whipping out the credit card. Few people have the skill, knowledge or patience to flip items and those who don’t will either pay Anet or remain poor.

Professional TP Traders would mean that they sell gold for real money, i dont think Anet has much love for them.

Since you’re so good with the TP, that means you’re probably the reason why we don’t have mounts. Just saying…

You mean y´all dont have mounts?

How do you get from the TP to the mystic forge?

Wanze.8410:

You mean y´all dont have mounts?

How do you get from the TP to the mystic forge?

I hire a Mesmer portal me between the two points. I can’t be bothered with running back and forth like a peasant.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Wanze.8410:

You mean y´all dont have mounts?

How do you get from the TP to the mystic forge?

I hire a Mesmer portal me between the two points. I can’t be bothered with running back and forth like a peasant.

Well, i got my flying mount for winning the TP secret Achievement.

Wanze.8410:

Slowpoke.2749:

Why are you suprised by this, OP? The game has a gem – gold exchange. It’s in Anet’s best interest to not reward people for playing the game.

Anet loves the professional TP traders because those people raise the prices of everything, making it so that the only two avenues to desirable items are playing the broker simulator or whipping out the credit card. Few people have the skill, knowledge or patience to flip items and those who don’t will either pay Anet or remain poor.

Professional TP Traders would mean that they sell gold for real money, i dont think Anet has much love for them.

That’s unavoidable. It matters whether the wealth is generated by Chinese farmers or western TP flippers though.

China farmers – as their name suggests – farm gold and materials via bots either on hacked accounts or their own accounts. That means that wealth is generated from and injected back into the game. If the farmer sells this overabundance of wealth gained through botting (that legitimate farmers can’t compete with) to players A / B / C / D / E then that casues deflation.

Experienced flippers on the other hand log into the game, monitor the market and repost stuff for about half an hour then log out. Their method doesn’t generate wealth but reallocates it. The wealth goes from players A / B / C / D / E to player Z the TP tycoon who then hoards this wealth until it can be used to turn a profit. This causes inflation.

Bots can be beneficial to the average player as even though their stuff loses market value due to oversaturation they can also buy things much cheaper. That’s bad for Anet because it doesn’t nudge the player towards purchasing gems. Flippers on the other hand elevate prices and make the gem-gold conversion (or buying gold illegally which is risky) the only viable method of acquiring coveted items since most people suck at flipping and simply playing the game gives jacksh*t.

Slowpoke.2749:

That’s unavoidable. It matters whether the wealth is generated by Chinese farmers or western TP flippers though.

China farmers – as their name suggests – farm gold and materials via bots either on hacked accounts or their own accounts. That means that wealth is generated from and injected back into the game. If the farmer sells this overabundance of wealth gained through botting (that legitimate farmers can’t compete with) to players A / B / C / D / E then that casues deflation.

Experienced flippers on the other hand log into the game, monitor the market and repost stuff for about half an hour then log out. Their method doesn’t generate wealth but reallocates it. The wealth goes from players A / B / C / D / E to player Z the TP tycoon who then hoards this wealth until it can be used to turn a profit. This causes inflation.

Bots can be beneficial to the average player as even though their stuff loses market value due to oversaturation they can also buy things much cheaper. That’s bad for Anet because it doesn’t nudge the player towards purchasing gems. Flippers on the other hand elevate prices and make the gem-gold conversion (or buying gold illegally which is risky) the only viable method of acquiring coveted items since most people suck at flipping and simply playing the game gives jacksh*t.

Farming causes inflation by creating more money supply.
Trading REDUCES inflation by deleting money supply from the game.

You got your two main points completely backwards.

mtpelion.4562:

Slowpoke.2749:

That’s unavoidable. It matters whether the wealth is generated by Chinese farmers or western TP flippers though.

China farmers – as their name suggests – farm gold and materials via bots either on hacked accounts or their own accounts. That means that wealth is generated from and injected back into the game. If the farmer sells this overabundance of wealth gained through botting (that legitimate farmers can’t compete with) to players A / B / C / D / E then that casues deflation.

Experienced flippers on the other hand log into the game, monitor the market and repost stuff for about half an hour then log out. Their method doesn’t generate wealth but reallocates it. The wealth goes from players A / B / C / D / E to player Z the TP tycoon who then hoards this wealth until it can be used to turn a profit. This causes inflation.

Bots can be beneficial to the average player as even though their stuff loses market value due to oversaturation they can also buy things much cheaper. That’s bad for Anet because it doesn’t nudge the player towards purchasing gems. Flippers on the other hand elevate prices and make the gem-gold conversion (or buying gold illegally which is risky) the only viable method of acquiring coveted items since most people suck at flipping and simply playing the game gives jacksh*t.

Farming causing inflation by creating more money supply.
Trading REDUCES inflation by deleting money supply from the game.

You got your two main points completely backwards.

^^
My flying mount agrees with mtpelion.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

tigirius.9014:

Four things need to occur here. 1: DR and loot restrictions must go. 2: double RNG must be a thing of the past, no more buying crafting bags only to get the same things drop or having a second drop rate for bags from mobs than the drop rate of the items from the bags. 3: Precursors and ALL runes/sigils must become crafted items. 4: And finally, the rewards for completing maps/puzzles/finding hidden chests/completing major events should all be increased, that way players actually FEEL rewarded. Please no more of this “I completed a major map, got 5 silver!” nonsense.

And we’re right back at “Entitlement”. All the things you suggest are meant to only benefit your instant gratification. By implementing 3 of 4 of these, you actually destroy the game faster.

-What happens when you run out of carrots to gather? You quit playing.
-What happens when you take away the gates, and allow farmers to run rampant with loot drops? You create inflation.
-What happens when you increase loot drops from events that are farmed daily by thousands of players? You create more inflation.

Be prepared for Precursor crafting though. Once that comes out, you’ll get a feel for what a real grind is. I’ve already been speculating as to what components this will require, and have been farming them up in hopes to be one of the first to craft and sell them.

Yes, I feel entitled to a gratifying experience when I play a game. I have no problem with that.

Also, when you get all the carrots you quit the game and feel good about it. So you tend to like the company and remember the experience fondly.
When you quit a game because the carrots are impossible to reach or so far away you decide you will never get them you hate the game and feel at lot of animosity toward the company.

Either way people quit. It just depends how they feel about you when they go.

^^ assumes, of course, that they aren’t having fun anymore. But at this point I assume that’s a given.

TooBz.3065:

^^ assumes, of course, that they aren’t having fun anymore. But at this point I assume that’s a given.

If you are not having fun for this reason, I think the right thread title would be something like “GW2 is too grindy QQ”

… the TP is only relevant in that it enables people to exchange unwanted drops for wanted drops, which means that playing almost any part of the game can help you towards the rewards you actually want. The upside to that is that you can play any part and still make some progress; the downside is that there’s no focused way to farm e.g. Giant Eyes if you want Immobulus (to take the worst example other than precursors).

If you find it too grindy, decide you don’t need the skins you were grinding for and either decide the game play isn’t fun (time to take a break, see if it’s fun when you come back) or realize that the skins won’t change the game play… (unless you mean the grind for ascended — that’s relevant, esp if you like min/max, but it is still possible to play most content without them).

What I meant was, if you’re having fun then you don’t (or at least I don’t) care about the rewards too much. Once I’m reward driven it means I’m not really having that much fun anymore.

mtpelion.4562:

Farming causes inflation by creating more money supply.
Trading REDUCES inflation by deleting money supply from the game.

You got your two main points completely backwards.

Trading in itself doesn’t delete money from the game. It just reallocates it. Gold sinks like waypoint costs and the 15% TP cut delete money from the game.

I’ve played in many MMOs and whenever a server got overrun with bots it caused deflation. Everything became dirt cheap because unlike the legit farmers, bots never get tired or log off so they can saturate the market and constantly undercut everyone.

It seems like a horrible thing because if bots sell orichalcum ores for 20 copper then it’s not worth the time to farm it yourself. However, you can buy it for extremely cheap.

Where do you get money if the TP is oversaturated and everything is cheap, you say? Static gold sources in the game. Not being able to sell my orichalcum for higher than 20 copper would make me sad but oh wait I can just run AC and COF for a set amount of easy gold. Each and every day. Not to mention the other dungeons, the champ trains, the mobs with high value vendor trash drops and the leveled chests.

Those won’t be worth much if the TP prices are inflated because items are scarce and expert flippers are elevating their prices even higher. However, if bots flood the TP then BOOM it’s buyer’s market, baby. The static amount of cash earned through playing the game is suddenly worth more as I can get several stacks of orcihalcum for only one gold which can be earned by running a single dungeon path.

If flippers sense that there’s money to be made through orichalcum, buy it up faster than legit farmers or bots can put up new stacks, then start reselling it for a higher and higher price my single gold will only be worth half a stack of ori eventually. (This is just an example, ori is obviously not a lucrative flipping material.)

TooBz.3065:

What I meant was, if you’re having fun then you don’t (or at least I don’t) care about the rewards too much. Once I’m reward driven it means I’m not really having that much fun anymore.

+1….Kudos!

If it’s all about the “carrots”, is it actually still “a game” for you?

I would be interesting to see what would happen if flipping suddenly ceased.

Brother Grimm.5176:

TooBz.3065:

What I meant was, if you’re having fun then you don’t (or at least I don’t) care about the rewards too much. Once I’m reward driven it means I’m not really having that much fun anymore.

+1….Kudos!

If it’s all about the “carrots”, is it actually still “a game” for you?

the best systems are about the game, and the reward. These will be the most fullfilling things you can do.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Calae.1738:

A game revolving around a trading post will not last long. Then again, it may have been intended.

Recettear says hello.

Looking at that image makes me smile.

Without describing the image itself, I can almost see which market Arenanet is targeting.

TooBz.3065:

I would be interesting to see what would happen if flipping suddenly ceased.

I had plenty of thoughts about that already. In my opinion, flippers and speculators have several positive impacts on the economy in general.

If there were no more flippers, speculators and other tp villains, we must assume that everything that is bought on the tp is purchased to be consumed or bound, so intended for personal use, not for future resale.

So any item which has a higher supply than demand will inevidably be available at vendor value at some point.

Most of the time, flippers and speculators are responsible for most buy orders for items like that, so they keep the value up in times where supply is bigger than demand.

Another big value that flippers and speculators have is that they keep supply in general in game. If they wouldnt put in those buy orders, people would sell to the vendor, destroying the item, while creating gold.
But they suck up the surplus of supply, either by storing it on the TP or in personal storage. Additional supply comes in handy, once an item gets higher demand than supply. Because with that supply the prices will rise much slower and will find equilibrium again quite faster.

Just imagine, what would have happened, if no one invested into t5 leather. Everybody would have vendored it pretty much since launch and we would have a couple of thousand sell listings at 8c. Listings above that would already long been pulled and sold to vendor (there are no speculators anymore, remember?).

Plus all the stuff thats in peoples personal storage (and vol´s pick up tab) would also not be there.

I think all of us would have a hard time now to open as many supply boxes as we do right now, which would result in much higher costs for celestial recipes, quartz and alot less festival tokens/entrance tickets.

Unless ofc Anet modified drop rates and or item requirements to suit supply and demand levels to maintain a healthy economy w/o flippers and speculators.

Essence Snow.3194:

Unless ofc Anet modified drop rates and or item requirements to suit supply and demand levels to maintain a healthy economy w/o flippers and speculators.

You mean if they made snowflakes drop throughout the year? Yeah, good luck with that.

And you have a lot of faith in anyone’s ability to manage supply and demand for non-seasonal items … ANet has done a great job of that, I guess? In general, having a market with supply & demand appears to do a much better job smoothing prices than attempts to manage this with central control.

Just saying.

I don’t think your version is plausible, and I think things would be worse without trading.

It’s not my version. I was just throwing out the flip side of the coin to a hypothetical situation.

linuxotaku.4731:

Essence Snow.3194:

Unless ofc Anet modified drop rates and or item requirements to suit supply and demand levels to maintain a healthy economy w/o flippers and speculators.

You mean if they made snowflakes drop throughout the year? Yeah, good luck with that.

And you have a lot of faith in anyone’s ability to manage supply and demand for non-seasonal items … ANet has done a great job of that, I guess? In general, having a market with supply & demand appears to do a much better job smoothing prices than attempts to manage this with central control.

Just saying.

I don’t think your version is plausible, and I think things would be worse without trading.

actually the thing most of you people forget is anet already does manipulate the economy, its kind of their job. Most of the things Wanze mentions, are things anet created to manipulate the economy, like ascended crafts, current materials for LS etc. The whole, “only the market can regulate itself” doesnt really make sense with a market that is 100% totally synthetic and created.

phys.7689:

linuxotaku.4731:

Essence Snow.3194:

Unless ofc Anet modified drop rates and or item requirements to suit supply and demand levels to maintain a healthy economy w/o flippers and speculators.

You mean if they made snowflakes drop throughout the year? Yeah, good luck with that.

And you have a lot of faith in anyone’s ability to manage supply and demand for non-seasonal items … ANet has done a great job of that, I guess? In general, having a market with supply & demand appears to do a much better job smoothing prices than attempts to manage this with central control.

Just saying.

I don’t think your version is plausible, and I think things would be worse without trading.

actually the thing most of you people forget is anet already does manipulate the economy, its kind of their job. Most of the things Wanze mentions, are things anet created to manipulate the economy, like ascended crafts, current materials for LS etc. The whole, “only the market can regulate itself” doesnt really make sense with a market that is 100% totally synthetic and created.

I don’t believe markets act without a good framework; IRL, I think government rules are necessary for markets to be a positive force, and government intervention can be beneficial (depending on the details, of course). Markets encourage participants to optimize for their own benefit; with appropriate rules, this can be channeled into activities which benefit everyone.

I’m aware that ANet manipulates the market by changing the value and requirements of various materials. I’ve heard far more complaints about these efforts than praise of them; I think ANet has done a decent job, but adjusting the rules of the game require a new build and raise the risk of serious mistakes affecting markets much more than they’d intended.

Allowing a market where supply and demand determines prices encourages players to fill in gaps where possible. This smooths out prices more than (relatively heavy-handed) intervention by changing drop rates or material requirements would.

linuxotaku.4731:

phys.7689:

linuxotaku.4731:

Essence Snow.3194:

Unless ofc Anet modified drop rates and or item requirements to suit supply and demand levels to maintain a healthy economy w/o flippers and speculators.

You mean if they made snowflakes drop throughout the year? Yeah, good luck with that.

And you have a lot of faith in anyone’s ability to manage supply and demand for non-seasonal items … ANet has done a great job of that, I guess? In general, having a market with supply & demand appears to do a much better job smoothing prices than attempts to manage this with central control.

Just saying.

I don’t think your version is plausible, and I think things would be worse without trading.

actually the thing most of you people forget is anet already does manipulate the economy, its kind of their job. Most of the things Wanze mentions, are things anet created to manipulate the economy, like ascended crafts, current materials for LS etc. The whole, “only the market can regulate itself” doesnt really make sense with a market that is 100% totally synthetic and created.

I don’t believe markets act without a good framework; IRL, I think government rules are necessary for markets to be a positive force. Markets encourage participants to optimize for their own benefit; with appropriate rules, this can be channeled into activities which benefit everyone.

I’m aware that ANet manipulates the market by changing the value and requirements of various materials. I’ve heard far more complaints about these efforts than praise of them; I think ANet has done a decent job, but adjusting the rules of the game require a new build and raise the risk of serious mistakes affecting markets much more than they’d intended.

Allowing a market where supply and demand determines prices encourage splayers to fill in gaps where possible. This smooths out prices more than (relatively heavy-handed) intervention by changing drop rates or material requirements would.

well the biggest flaw in the whole market self balance idea, is it depends on people creating supply purposefully, which by and large doesnt happen in this game.

normally an excess of a certain material would cause a decrease in its production, this is not the case here. Normally an increase in demand would lead to more people trying to provide said item, however, items a generated unintentionally, so it isnt very easy to fill demand either.

i think in this game we are extremely at the whim of the designers for value, the only facet we control somehwhat is demand, but even that is generally created by them in some respect. (like silk, or recent leather recipes)

phys.7689:

well the biggest flaw in the whole market self balance idea, is it depends on people creating supply purposefully, which by and large doesnt happen in this game.

WTF! OF course this happens … I can guarentee that if the demand on an item spikes, more people do go out of their way to supply it. Just because there are people that continue to supply and item when demand is less doesn’t mean the market behaves in a way that doesn’t balance itself. The market behaves in a classic ‘supply/demand’ manner, so clearly people are taking advantage of increasing supply with demand if they think it’s worth it.

Obtena.7952:

phys.7689:

well the biggest flaw in the whole market self balance idea, is it depends on people creating supply purposefully, which by and large doesnt happen in this game.

WTF! OF course this happens … I can guarentee that if the demand on an item spikes, more people do go out of their way to supply it. Just because there are people that continue to supply and item when demand is less doesn’t mean the market behaves in a way that doesn’t balance itself. The market behaves in a classic ‘supply/demand’ manner, so clearly people are taking advantage of increasing supply with demand if they think it’s worth it.

most of the games items have a large part of their supply occur randomly. For example, silk, most silk comes into the game whether people want it to or not.
you get silk drops from supply bags, you get while salvaging. If you decide you want to be a silk farmer, you will actually lose money as a farmer. The most likely way to get silk is to kill colth dropping enemies who also drop bags repeatedly. However, you get more silk in a champ train, or dynamic event train killing the enemies who arent even mainly silk droppers, because you either kill more enemies, or get more drops via champion bags that salavge into silk.

lets say you want to farm powerful blood, you go to kill some harpies or minotaurs, the amount you kill doesnt equal enough that you wouldnt get more money in a dynamic event train in orr, or how much you would get in EOTM, in fact you will probably get as much powerful blood in a couple hours of EOTM as you would get targeting specific monsters, but you wont get all the other items.

people cannot meet supply intentionally, which means in the path of getting say valuable silk, you create a whole bunch of worthless leather.

So really the equations end up being more about how much of an item the devs designed to be generated and how much demand they designed the items to use. The market cannot correct itself because supply is not controlled by players in this game.

phys.7689:

you get silk drops from supply bags, you get while salvaging. If you decide you want to be a silk farmer, you will actually lose money as a farmer.

There is NO way I can ever lose money purposefully farming a specific item, even if I don’t get any of that specific item while attempting to farm it due to the fact that I’m highly likely to obtain other materials I can sell to recoup whatever costs (waypoint cost) I spend to make a farming attempt. Only in very specific scenarios where a person have to act stupidly where farming would result in losing money.

phys.7689:

people cannot meet supply intentionally, which means in the path of getting say valuable silk, you create a whole bunch of worthless leather.

People can and do create supply intentionally if they feel the price they will get for the items warrant the effort to do so. The fact a farmer generates leather while farming silk doesn’t prevent them from intentionally trying to farm silk and sell it to meet demand. It’s simply demonstrated every time someone buys silk from the TP. That is demand being filled by supply, regardless of what other mats were generated in the process for creating the materials being sold.

Supply and demand are most definitely the driving factors behind the market in GW2. It’s can’t possibly be any other way. Players are most definitely part of system that determines what items are supplied and demanded in the game through the activities they do. Saying they aren’t is just silly.

Obtena.7952:

phys.7689:

you get silk drops from supply bags, you get while salvaging. If you decide you want to be a silk farmer, you will actually lose money as a farmer.

There is NO way I can ever lose money purposefully farming a specific item, even if I don’t get any of that specific item while attempting to farm it due to the fact that I’m highly likely to obtain other materials I can sell to recoup whatever costs (waypoint cost) I spend to make a farming attempt. Only in very specific scenarios where a person have to act stupidly where farming would result in losing money.

phys.7689:

people cannot meet supply intentionally, which means in the path of getting say valuable silk, you create a whole bunch of worthless leather.

People can and do create supply intentionally if they feel the price they will get for the items warrant the effort to do so. The fact a farmer generates leather while farming silk doesn’t prevent them from intentionally trying to farm silk and sell it to meet demand. It’s simply demonstrated every time someone buys silk from the TP. That is demand being filled by supply, regardless of what other mats were generated in the process for creating the materials being sold.

Supply and demand are most definitely the driving factors behind the market in GW2. It’s can’t possibly be any other way. Players are most definitely part of system that determines what items are supplied and demanded in the game through the activities they do. Saying they aren’t is just silly.

you lose money farming silk, if you would have made more money farming something else.
for example, lets say you target linen scraps, and you get 40 linen an hour, and a bunch of less valuable stuff. like leather, 15 silver, 20 silver in wood, 40 silver in iron. lets say lines scraps selling for 6 silver each.
you make 2.4+.4+.2+.15 gold per hour or, 3.15 gold. then you realize you could have gotten 6 gold doing dungeons, or 8 gold doing champ train, or 6-7 gold doing events, and you realize as a farmer, farming linen was directly was a losing proposition.

so why are these things not worth farming? because a decent portion of them are generated by accident. The price for silk isnt based on how much a player can make focusing on silk, The price for silk is based on how many people create silk while doing their general farming and daily activities.

phys.7689:

you lose money farming silk, if you would have made more money farming something else.

No, you can’t lose money you never had from an activity you never did. What you want to say is that you make more money doing an activity that gives you more valuable mats. You don’t LOSE money farming, ever. Even the most worthless item can be sold for money, exceeding your cost of farming, which is a couple of WP costs. You might think that’s just arguing a pedantic point but that distinction is important because your being purposefully misleading by telling people they lose money even though farming is the least risky and cost free activity you can do to earn gold.

What you don’t realize is that if people who are farming go off and ‘not lose’ money doing other activities, that’s less mats in the market … I won’t go into how that would impact the price of those mats because you still don’t understand you can’t lose money farming.

What you consider worth farming or not isn’t relevant but the fact you seem to think farming is a waste of time sows you lack of understanding of the market, how players impact supply and demand, it’s affect on prices and finally, how farmers optimize their money-making opportunities.

The self-regulating aspect that players have on the market isn’t flawed because demand affects price. Farming is lucrative for those people paying attention to those signals. To suggest this is completely out of the control of players shows a significant lack of understanding for this aspect of the game. If I see linen is at 8s … I know EXACTLY where to go to farm it. Any good farmer does.

It’s called “opportunity costs”.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost

Obtena.7952:

phys.7689:

you lose money farming silk, if you would have made more money farming something else.

No, you can’t lose money you never had from an activity you never did. What you want to say is that you make more money doing an activity that gives you more valuable mats. You don’t LOSE money farming, ever. Even the most worthless item can be sold for money, exceeding your cost of farming, which is a couple of WP costs. You might think that’s just arguing a pedantic point but that distinction is important because your being purposefully misleading by telling people they lose money even though farming is the least risky and cost free activity you can do to earn gold.

What you don’t realize is that if people who are farming go off and ‘not lose’ money doing other activities, that’s less mats in the market … I won’t go into how that would impact the price of those mats because you still don’t understand you can’t lose money farming.

What you consider worth farming or not isn’t relevant but the fact you seem to think farming is a waste of time sows you lack of understanding of the market, how players impact supply and demand, it’s affect on prices and finally, how farmers optimize their money-making opportunities.

The self-regulating aspect that players have on the market isn’t flawed because demand affects price. Farming is lucrative for those people paying attention to those signals. To suggest this is completely out of the control of players shows a significant lack of understanding for this aspect of the game. If I see linen is at 8s … I know EXACTLY where to go to farm it. Any good farmer does.

you are missing the point.
the point is that most materials are supplied unintentionally.
i already explained how this works, but you dont really understand so there is not much more i can tell you.