Guild Wars 2

Dear John, as you are Anet’s champion on this part of the forum, and highly respect your opinion, can you please offer some guidance on this issue.

- Zicore
- Gold Wars 2
- Others programs developed to offer even more functionalities than the above.

My concern is that it is possible for players, through a third party tool, to be notified for every item they are selling on the TP whether they are overbid or not. For me, this crosses a big line, which caused me to stop crafting and stop doing anything TP related. Others have indicated this sentiment as well, as you are probably well aware (see closed thread on this). Just to be clear, the point of this thread is not my opinion on whether these programs are “right” or “wrong”, or whether they violate any party of the EULA/TOS. For the purposes of this thread, those questions are moot.
The point of this thread is guidance.

I seek guidance because it feels wrong to me to use these programs (again, whether it feels right to someone else is not the point of this thread). In the same way, I’m not sending my ranger pets up a WvW battlement with the “guard” skill, because I don’t think it’s intended for them to be gravity defying vertical climbers. Unfortunately, there’s no guidance yet on this issue either, but it certainly does not impact the game in the same way as the use of third party tools for the TP.

So I would like to ask: where is the line? What kind of third party tools, or more specifically, what third party functionalities are we allowed to use to compete on the TP?

Buttercup.5871:

Dear John, as you are Anet’s champion on this part of the forum, and highly respect your opinion, can you please offer some guidance on this issue.

- Zicore
- Gold Wars 2
- Others programs developed to offer even more functionalities than the above.

My concern is that it is possible for players, through a third party tool, to be notified for every item they are selling on the TP whether they are overbid or not. For me, this crosses a big line, which caused me to stop crafting and stop doing anything TP related. Others have indicated this sentiment as well, as you are probably well aware (see closed thread on this). Just to be clear, the point of this thread is not my opinion on whether these programs are “right” or “wrong”, or whether they violate any party of the EULA/TOS. For the purposes of this thread, those questions are moot.
The point of this thread is guidance.

I seek guidance because it feels wrong to me to use these programs (again, whether it feels right to someone else is not the point of this thread). In the same way, I’m not sending my ranger pets up a WvW battlement with the “guard” skill, because I don’t think it’s intended for them to be gravity defying vertical climbers. Unfortunately, there’s no guidance yet on this issue either, but it certainly does not impact the game in the same way as the use of third party tools for the TP.

So I would like to ask: where is the line? What kind of third party tools, or more specifically, what third party functionalities are we allowed to use to compete on the TP?

Since I have voiced my oppinion on that matter in several threads I will just agree with your point of that a clarification by Anet would be nice and add a lot to keep the tone in this sub forum friendly.

Agreed, more info is required (and I doubt will be given) or this issue is going to negatively affect the tone of this forum (see second thread where people have resorted to name calling people who disagree with the program and what seems like fairly obvious trolling/drama seeking) because people fail to be civil with differing opinions :\

Thank you for your mature responses guys.

Completly against these programs myself, I appriciate the hardwork that goes into them..

However gold wars 2 is one perfect example of why it shouldn’t be allowed, someone will always try to profit of it in real life, by offering superior programs, this ends up being a “pay to have a advantage” situation which is bad.

And I also don’t think they should be allowed/possible even if the gold charging services could be defeated, It removes a pretty big aspect of the game (in my opinion) bargain hunting, when people get to easy access to all this info at once, the possibity of nice buy/sell opportunities more or less vanish.

Notifier makes it even worse, honestly.. the ability to 1c outbid people in the tp is one of the worst things about tp, and this makes it that much easier for people who use these programs to lock down a certain item with 1c bids.

Lets by all means not forget that ALOT if not MOST people never visit forums, and will never been informed that these programs exist, at such they will be at a permanent disadvantage as long as these programs are allowed to exist.

If margins and notifiers are to be added, it should be a ingame feature, or not a feature at all, ease of access for all, or for non.

I find spidy to be a really well made tool, and i appriciate the hard work went into it, however, I think the game would overall be better of without these programs.

Kilrain, as much as I appreciate that you share your views, the point of this thread is not to seek individual player’s views on what functionality is right or wrong. It will only degrade into a debate on players disagreeing, and re-hashing the same arguments as have been made in other threads.

The point of this thead is to get guidance. As Goldi and Protoavis have pointed out, such guidance will hopefully also help avoid further quarreling on the forum on what is “right” or “wrong”.

It would be good to get some guidance relating these issues from Anet.
I don’t have anything against using a program like Zicore’s but would like some clarification if it is allowed or not.

for me gw2spidy allready crossed the line. With even more more sophisticated programs coming out I say bb crafting
Tonight I will gather all mats stored in my bank and throw them on TP

I have absolutely no problem with these programs, and I doubt Arenanet will have any problem with them.

When they start charging for their programs/services, then I’ll have a problem.

They already started. Gold Wars 2 is subscription based.
But I do agree with you, as long as anyone can freely access it I think it’s fair game.

Ooshi.8607:

They already started. Gold Wars 2 is subscription based.
But I do agree with you, as long as anyone can freely access it I think it’s fair game.

Time to report then :P

I think that these people are bright and that they spent their hard time programming the utility. However, they still are basing their work on Arenanet’s intellectual property and statistics and as such I think they are crossing the line.

All they can really do is confirm that parsing the data from the TP is not a violation, and they’ve pretty much already done that. They will not tell you that using these programs are ok, since it’s against their policy to do so. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/account/Policy-Third-Party-Programs. If these program were not ok, the threads talking about them would be censored and locked or deleted.

“Gold Wars 2” is a joke aimed at people with money that don’t know what they’re doing and think by purchasing it, they’re getting into something exclusive so they do it. You’re really only paying for forum access, since their program does nothing special.

Healix, Arenanet not telling is the root of the problem. I do not believe that the silence of the developers means something is “OK”. If the law in my country, or those that make the law, does not tell me explicitly that putting young kittens in the microwave is not allowed, does not mean that it must therefore be allowed.

My only point of reference is the User Agreement and the Rules of Conduct. If I believe something is an unintended game mechanic inside the game, I don’t use it. If I believe something is an unintended game mechanic outside the game, which affects what I do inside the game, I don’t use it. However, Goldi, DarkSpirit and others who argued the opposite, have valid points too. Maybe they’re completely right. I don’t know. This is why I am requesting guidance. To know what I am allowed to do, and to avoid any hostile discussions back and forth about it on this forum. I’d like to know the boundries. What is permitted, and what is not. It’s unclear for those in favor and those against, and it’s creating a divide between players. I’m OK with the outcome either way.

Buttercup.5871:

Healix, Arenanet not telling is the root of the problem. I do not believe that the silence of the developers means something is “OK”. If the law in my country, or those that make the law, does not tell me explicitly that putting young kittens in the microwave is not allowed, does not mean that it must therefore be allowed.

My only point of reference is the User Agreement and the Rules of Conduct. If I believe something is an unintended game mechanic inside the game, I don’t use it. If I believe something is an unintended game mechanic outside the game, which affects what I do inside the game, I don’t use it. However, Goldi, DarkSpirit and others who argued the opposite, have valid points too. Maybe they’re completely right. I don’t know. This is why I am requesting guidance. To know what I am allowed to do, and to avoid any hostile discussions back and forth about it on this forum. I’d like to know the boundries. What is permitted, and what is not. It’s unclear for those in favor and those against, and it’s creating a divide between players. I’m OK with the outcome either way.

And since we only can post our oppinions as we interpret their EULA an official statement would be nice to end that discussion once and for all like you said

They’re not going to give an official statement on whether the use of the program is ok or not because it’s against their policy to do so.

You have to make your own judgements based on the facts. Putting a kitten in a microwave isn’t wrong. Making a judgement call to put a well kitten in a microwave and sealing or turning it on however would be, because you’re acting on intent to kill. If the person in question however didn’t know what the object was and lacked common sense due to age or whatever reason, it would most likely be considered an accident, with the blame being shifted to the person in charge.

1. It has been confirmed by ArenaNet that parsing the TP is ok.
2. Obtaining an in-game session key is done by either reading memory, reading storage or intercepting network traffic. All 3 of these methods are a violation under the user agreement. An in-game session key is only needed to access the buy/sell listings and personal transactions. A normal session key can be obtained by simply logging in to the site, in the same way you do the forums. Obtaining a normal session key does not violate any part of the agreement.

Only the act of obtaining the in-game session key would be considered wrong. Using it however is considered ok. Because these programs use legally obtained data and what the program provides is just a view of that data, these programs are legal, whether official or not. ArenaNet would have to first revoke the ability to parse the TP for it to considered wrong.

If they were to give an official statement, all they would say is what they have already said – that parsing the TP is at this current time is not considered a violation. Even if they were to go a little further, the most direct answer you would get would be full of time sensitive maybes open to interpretation, making the statement mean nothing.

Don’t count on an official yes or no, because people have been asking for one for 3+ months now. The only thing they could really clarify is if obtaining just the in-game session key is ok. I doubt they would even do that however, since doing so would make a public exception in the agreement. They would be more likely to add another way of obtaining the key.

Zicore tells you what’s sold/bought in your tabs, something which you can check in your retrieve list a good deal faster than it appears in the notification. This makes Zicore’s notification only useful if you haven’t already picked up your goods (which I do constantly).

If you ever see me in a dungeon, it’s pretty rare for me to not spawn a Trading Post unit in the entirety of it (unless it’s a quick 3 speed p1 CoF farm).

Even though I have doubts that ArenaNet will give a clear cut answer to this, I think that this thread has good motivations. Gw2spidy and Gold Wars 2 claim to already have ArenaNet’s approval but if that is not the case, then I would want to know about it. At the mean time, I can only trust that they have already received approval from ArenaNet as they claimed they have. Same logic as everyone is presumed innocent until proven guilty and not the other way round.

DarkSpirit.7046:

Even though I have doubts that ArenaNet will give a clear cut answer to this, I think that this thread has good motivations. Gw2spidy and Gold Wars 2 claim to already have ArenaNet’s approval but if that is not the case, then I would want to know about it. At the mean time, I can only trust that they have already received approval from ArenaNet as they claimed they have. Same logic as everyone is presumed innocent until proven guilty and not the other way round.

Zicore and spidy have anet’s approval. Not sure about Gold Wars 2.

The fact that we get some topics answered right away by devs here, and some aren’t, means that they either approve of it or sitting on the fence.

Either way, who cares? use it anyway.

Esplen.3940:

Zicore and spidy have anet’s approval. Not sure about Gold Wars 2.

It says so in big letters on their website: http://www.goldwars2.com/

“ArenaNet Approved. ArenaNet gave access to data that allows us to build applications like Gold Wars 2. You will not be banned for using Gold Wars 2.”

Anyway, it takes resources to properly support an api, so this may be just one of those, “you can use it, just don’t expect us to support it or answer any questions about it” kind of deal.

Esplen.3940:

Zicore and spidy have anet’s approval. Not sure about Gold Wars 2.

Did I miss something? Since when does Zicore have an approval?

Stiffi.7824:

Esplen.3940:

Zicore and spidy have anet’s approval. Not sure about Gold Wars 2.

Did I miss something? Since when does Zicore have an approval?

For an unsupported api, I seriously doubt ArenaNet is prepared to provide approval/disapproval on a per-app basis.

If Zicore’s app uses the same mechanism as what gw2spidy uses to access the TP, then it should fall under the same category. If gw2spidy has been approved then Zicore’s app should be approved as well.

Bump. This problem won’t go away if you ignore it. And don’t tell it’s not a problem, because the opinions on this topic remain split.

I keep wondering: should I be a programmer to compete in a level playing field on the TP part of this game? I don’t thinks so.

Hi everyone,

When dealing with third party programs, please follow our policy. If it gives you an advantage over other players, as a general rule, please refrain from its usage. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/account/Policy-Third-Party-Programs/first#post354869.

Thanks for your understanding. This thread is closed.