Guild Wars 2

Labjax.2465:

Arewn.2368:

Devs of various titles have brought this up

I would like to see some examples of this from devs, pertaining to sub models.

Here you go. One dev of an MMO talking about models. Cheers.

The fact is, whatever monetary system they choose is going to have a large effect on the game.
Initially they thought they could ride this beast, but post launch, i would say the gem store is a fairly large focus of the game.

And yes the game itself does suffer for being monetarily supported by the gem shop. Now, some would say without the gem shop they would have no money, not really true, without the gem shop they would have a different monetization strategy.
imo, the best monetization strategy would be one that encourages them to develop the things that improve the game the most.

What is that monetization strategy? hmm that may be tricky, but as long as the gem shop works how it does, you can expect more items people value to appear in the shop, and less in the game.

The amount of money they earn is based on how many people want to buy gem store items and how much they are willing to spend on those gem store items.

The game itself in this type of model will eventually become a playground for gem store items.

My only gripe is that AnSoft has all this money but I look towards WvW/PvP and see a wasteland. Sure you see some shrubbery planted every now and then but I desire and new landscape to transverse… Where’s the oasis..?

blakdoxa.7520:

My only gripe is that AnSoft has all this money but I look towards WvW/PvP and see a wasteland. Sure you see some shrubbery planted every now and then but I desire and new landscape to transverse… Where’s the oasis..?

So your complaint is that even paint ball ranges change up there layout time to time. And that after two years of essentially the same set of goals, it’s now uneventful.

Behellagh.1468:

blakdoxa.7520:

My only gripe is that AnSoft has all this money but I look towards WvW/PvP and see a wasteland. Sure you see some shrubbery planted every now and then but I desire and new landscape to transverse… Where’s the oasis..?

So your complaint is that even paint ball ranges change up there layout time to time. And that after two years of essentially the same set of goals, it’s now uneventful.

I had to change my view of Guild Wars 2. After trying out AA I took another look at gw2 and said “it’s not so bad….” I used to hate it too. How nothing seemed to change for these modes and it somehow was related to the gem store (as in these modes not drawing in profit?)
Though if I took that sort of view I would have gave up gw2 like the rest of my friends did… about 1 year and half ago…

First off, I’m not a huge fan of the gem shop, but I can understand that ANet has decided to make it their main income. But I think that holds huge risks.

First of all, there is no item helix. You wont stand out by having the best armor measured by stats. You will stand out with your skin. The endgame solely resolves around getting all the skins you want. Yet the very most new skins got added to the gem shop. One of the few reasons to keep playing the game once your character is leveled and geared got locked away behind a paywall.

It also hurts those who still want to get the items. Either you have to pay for them or you have to exchange gold. Gold can be grinded but it’s by far not the best or funniest way to acquire items. You don’t hunt skins, you don’t achieve them, you buy them. That hurts the MMO mentality.

Last but not least, ANet has to focus a lot of resources on the gem shop to keep the money rolling in. That can lead to the dillusion that the players are fine with the way of getting new stuff through the gem store or with the state of the game, when in fact, they’re not.
A way better method of getting money would be an optional subscription fee.
I would happily dumb 10€ per month if ANet assures me to deliver sweet new content.
But I wont support their gem shop strategy.

I hardly call a couple of art devs “a lot of resources” to knock out a few skins every few weeks.

lordkrall.7241:

So… what in the gem store is necessary in order to play the game?

Real Money Transactions. Because without them Anet would be broke and we literally would not have a game.

I think Anet should consider putting in a VIP system, much like how China has. I’m more than willing to pay extra money for extra benefits. People willing to spend X amount each month helps NCSoft/Anet’s bottom line, and would be completely optional. Players who don’t want to participate can still play the game as normal. It’s a win/win situation for all.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

I think Anet should consider putting in a VIP system, much like how China has. I’m more than willing to pay extra money for extra benefits. People willing to spend X amount each month helps NCSoft/Anet’s bottom line, and would be completely optional. Players who don’t want to participate can still play the game as normal. It’s a win/win situation for all.

Did you see the reaction on these forums when the VIP-data was data-mined before they announced it for China?

lordkrall.7241:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

I think Anet should consider putting in a VIP system, much like how China has. I’m more than willing to pay extra money for extra benefits. People willing to spend X amount each month helps NCSoft/Anet’s bottom line, and would be completely optional. Players who don’t want to participate can still play the game as normal. It’s a win/win situation for all.

Did you see the reaction on these forums when the VIP-data was data-mined before they announced it for China?

I know. Perhaps we should give it a chance? Maybe a private test run for a few selected players?

Smooth Penguin.5294:

lordkrall.7241:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

I think Anet should consider putting in a VIP system, much like how China has. I’m more than willing to pay extra money for extra benefits. People willing to spend X amount each month helps NCSoft/Anet’s bottom line, and would be completely optional. Players who don’t want to participate can still play the game as normal. It’s a win/win situation for all.

Did you see the reaction on these forums when the VIP-data was data-mined before they announced it for China?

I know. Perhaps we should give it a chance? Maybe a private test run for a few selected players?

I’m not sure, are you joking about this or being serious. It’s hard to tell sometimes.

Behellagh.1468:

I hardly call a couple of art devs “a lot of resources” to knock out a few skins every few weeks.

If you have 3 art devs specializing in armor, then “a couple” would be nearly all of them. And it probably takes more time than any of us think to “knock out a few skins:” besides the actual design, you also have to animate them (wind, different skill effects, etc), QA them against existing skins (armor & weapons) for conflicts (not just clipping), and I’m sure plenty of other stuff I have no idea about because I’m not an expert.

Or to put it in simpler terms, since ANet realizes how much a core group of players is willing to spend to get new skins every few weeks, don’t we think they’d be all over this if it were as easy as suggested? Why would they waste a perfectly good (and easy) way to rake in some more cash?

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Or to put it in simpler terms, since ANet realizes how much a core group of players is willing to spend to get new skins every few weeks, don’t we think they’d be all over this if it were as easy as suggested? Why would they waste a perfectly good (and easy) way to rake in some more cash?

Once upon a time, we did tell them, via the forums, we would be perfectly willing to get more skins via the Gem Store.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

lordkrall.7241:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

I think Anet should consider putting in a VIP system, much like how China has. I’m more than willing to pay extra money for extra benefits. People willing to spend X amount each month helps NCSoft/Anet’s bottom line, and would be completely optional. Players who don’t want to participate can still play the game as normal. It’s a win/win situation for all.

Did you see the reaction on these forums when the VIP-data was data-mined before they announced it for China?

I know. Perhaps we should give it a chance? Maybe a private test run for a few selected players?

I’m not sure, are you joking about this or being serious. It’s hard to tell sometimes.

Player’s obsessed with prestige, wealth, and separating themselves from the community will never be good for an MMO. The Dev’s know what they are doing by trying to build the game around a greater community.

Yes, the Gem Store affects the way the game is designed, gameplay is rewarded, and a million other parts. It is the income generating part of the business model. The real question is ‘does it make the game toxic to play?’

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Or to put it in simpler terms, since ANet realizes how much a core group of players is willing to spend to get new skins every few weeks, don’t we think they’d be all over this if it were as easy as suggested? Why would they waste a perfectly good (and easy) way to rake in some more cash?

Once upon a time, we did tell them, via the forums, we would be perfectly willing to get more skins via the Gem Store.

I remember that!

Not the thread i was looking for but

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/bltc/List-Of-Things-We-Want-In-Gemstore/first#post2218752

The Gem Store IS Guild Wars 2. If you like the skins there, save money to either buy the gems to get them OR buy them from other players on the TP.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Behellagh.1468:

I hardly call a couple of art devs “a lot of resources” to knock out a few skins every few weeks.

If you have 3 art devs specializing in armor, then “a couple” would be nearly all of them. And it probably takes more time than any of us think to “knock out a few skins:” besides the actual design, you also have to animate them (wind, different skill effects, etc), QA them against existing skins (armor & weapons) for conflicts (not just clipping), and I’m sure plenty of other stuff I have no idea about because I’m not an expert.

Or to put it in simpler terms, since ANet realizes how much a core group of players is willing to spend to get new skins every few weeks, don’t we think they’d be all over this if it were as easy as suggested? Why would they waste a perfectly good (and easy) way to rake in some more cash?

Their been quoted as having over 350 working there. Assuming 20% is administrative and other non-dev personal, that’s 280 left. I would say at least 50-60% are involved in asset creation, aka art devs. I would be floored if there was more than 50 who actually code, as in writing software. TP skins are probably tossed at the newbie art grads.

Romek.4201:

lordkrall.7241:

So… what in the gem store is necessary in order to play the game?

If you have issues with BLCs simply throw them away when you get them. It is not really that hard. I also seem to recall them lowering the drop rate quite a bit, so it should be even less of an issue nowadays.

I have gotten plenty of rewards in-game, while none in the gem-store. But I suppose that is all a matter of opinion. In my eyes, getting something for doing something is a reward. Simply buying something is not.

I get that you dislike the gemstore (you have been complaining about it since before release I seem to recall) but you are making it more of an issue than it actually is. It is fully possible to experience and enjoy the game and completely ignore the gem-store. But you prefer to see the gem-store in everything and thus it creates and issue for you.

And the fact remains. Without the gem-store we would most likely have much of a game left to play now. At least we doesn’t (as of yet) have pure OP and/or gamechanging things in the store, as we had in GW1.

Than trie to play a new account (new player) with only 1 bankslot and the normal 5 bagslots and you will understand very fast how annoying it is. How you need in this game more space but you can´t afford it anymore as a new player just from gold and you have to use creditcard. Its Pay to win – even when whiteknights in this forum still bring same kitten over and over : “So… what in the gem store is necessary in order to play the game?”

They repeat it because THEY ARE NOT WRONG.
Your impatience is your own problem.

Romek.4201:

lordkrall.7241:

So… what in the gem store is necessary in order to play the game?

If you have issues with BLCs simply throw them away when you get them. It is not really that hard. I also seem to recall them lowering the drop rate quite a bit, so it should be even less of an issue nowadays.

I have gotten plenty of rewards in-game, while none in the gem-store. But I suppose that is all a matter of opinion. In my eyes, getting something for doing something is a reward. Simply buying something is not.

I get that you dislike the gemstore (you have been complaining about it since before release I seem to recall) but you are making it more of an issue than it actually is. It is fully possible to experience and enjoy the game and completely ignore the gem-store. But you prefer to see the gem-store in everything and thus it creates and issue for you.

And the fact remains. Without the gem-store we would most likely have much of a game left to play now. At least we doesn’t (as of yet) have pure OP and/or gamechanging things in the store, as we had in GW1.

Than trie to play a new account (new player) with only 1 bankslot and the normal 5 bagslots and you will understand very fast how annoying it is. How you need in this game more space but you can´t afford it anymore as a new player just from gold and you have to use creditcard. Its Pay to win – even when whiteknights in this forum still bring same kitten over and over : “So… what in the gem store is necessary in order to play the game?”

There’s a difference between defending a point with a valid reason and whiteknighting.

12 slot steel boxes cost 58 silver on the marketplace. you can actually -craft- slot boxes in game.

There is no “pay us or you will not have bag slots”.

You can easily make 58 silver, or work Armorsmithing for a little while and make all the boxes you want.

Even the bag slots are obtainable if you are willing to work for a couple minutes for the gold.

My concern about the gemstore…. is the “new improved Capitalism” of game design as outlined last week by ExtraCredits. That the Developers look way more frequently at the Metrics and Datamining of players who buy from the Gemstore, and only look at the metrics of “poor players” when there’s some overlap between the two.

This applies particularly heavily to Holiday events as the OP brought up, but also things like WvW, Pve story & group content, and even which weapon, class, & skill types should receive the most Artist Resources or balance tweaking.

This is why you only see them come to the Forums to justify a decision they already made. They don’t need your input. If you contribute a lot of money to the game, they already have your input in datamining form. And if you’re not a rich kid, then good luck having your voice heard. They already have tons of IRL friends nagging at them about every possible issue under the sun as it is. Why would they play the live server or come to the forums to hear even more of that when it doesn’t immediately serve their most profitable Demographic?

Behellagh.1468:

I hardly call a couple of art devs “a lot of resources” to knock out a few skins every few weeks.

You’ve clearly never touched a Modeling program in your life then if you think knocking a few of them out every couple weeks is a minor thing.

ilr.9675:

My concern about the gemstore…. is the “new improved Capitalism” of game design as outlined last week by ExtraCredits. That the Developers look way more frequently at the Metrics and Datamining of players who buy from the Gemstore, and only look at the metrics of “poor players” when there’s some overlap between the two.

This applies particularly heavily to Holiday events as the OP brought up, but also things like WvW, Pve story & group content, and even which weapon, class, & skill types should receive the most Artist Resources or balance tweaking.

This is why you only see them come to the Forums to justify a decision they already made. They don’t need your input. If you contribute a lot of money to the game, they already have your input in datamining form. And if you’re not a rich kid, then good luck having your voice heard. They already have tons of IRL friends nagging at them about every possible issue under the sun as it is. Why would they play the live server or come to the forums to hear even more of that when it doesn’t immediately serve their most profitable Demographic?

Behellagh.1468:

I hardly call a couple of art devs “a lot of resources” to knock out a few skins every few weeks.

You’ve clearly never touched a Modeling program in your life then if you think knocking a few of them out every couple weeks is a minor thing.

I have, and its kind of normal, of course it depends on what level of detail you are required to go through. Its not unreasonable to knock out new skins every 2 weeks, if thats your primary goal for those 2 weeks. Its also substantially less, if you can reuse, and modify existing resources.

However, i dont think most game companies usually hire that many 3d artists at a time, unless they are in early development.

bearing this in mind, their are other things they could be using 3d artists for,

….Or they Outscource that work. That’s actually the industry standard. But keep in mind they must also make all the “Wrapping” for marketing of those items, IE: living story assets too. Basically do what all the old morning cartoon shows did that were made solely to sell toys and cereal.

…

geez, when I say it that way, it sounds way more innocent and nostalgic than it should >:P

Pay to win is NOT the same as Pay for more convenience…..What are you exactly “winning” with more storage?

I will concede that it is unreasonable to expect anyone to play for any extended period of time without adding bag and bank slots, but you do NOT have to buy gems with RL $ to get them.

Also, that is pretty much the ONLY items in the gem store that are “MUST HAVE”….exceptions to the “no paywall” norm.

My biggest concern is not items that you must have, but the lack of items outside the store. I’d like to see them actually design content for the game. I could farm gold for days, grinding the same areas day in day out, like with those Frostgorge trains. And then at the end of it, I could waste it all for a few gems, just to buy something from the store. But that does not make me feel rewarded. It makes me feel like I just did a ton of annoying work just to buy some overpriced item, when I should be playing the game, and getting rewarded for doing so.

<shakes head> please tell me this is a troll thread. I really dont know wether to laugh or cry. Mad queen, if you don’t want to pay a subscription fee, please stahp…just stahp. charging for expansions? what? you dont just clap your hands and poof! you have an expansion. It all costs money and time, which then costs money, there is no complicated logic to this.

There are only 3 options for keeping an mmorpg alive, subscription, a very popular cash shop or both. You can’t wave a wand and all the staff gets paid for the continous work they do on the game.

The b2p model helps for the initial cost to make the game because a sub model wont cover that cost as quickly. It is the cash shop that allows them to keep updating and fixing the game. I know for sure there are some months where in one i have spent probably 6 months worth of WoWs sub fee. This is why they make us pay for the good stuff, instead of putting it in game, and I am perfectly fine with that.

Yes of course, but it shouldn’t go at the cost of the game itself. Then you’re basically shooting yourself in the foot.

That’s why I said in my opening post: This is not about the cost of maintaining GW2 or paying salaries. This is about the effect this choice of theirs on the game. I see a ton of people in this thread still deflecting the discussion back to the argument about the cost of developing an MMO. But that is not what this discussion is about. It’s about the effect of the store on the game’s current content, and the game’s future development.

Your argument does not make the problem go away, or make the effect of the store on the game any less hard to swallow. The problem is still there, and it’s noticeable.

It’s not a problem, you just don’t realize what this game is really all about. It’s not here to provide you entertainment. It’s here to make money.

The content in the game is fashioned around the gemstore, not the other way around. If that’s a problem for you, you shouldn’t be playing games with that business model.

The game didn’t used to be about that though. GW2 started out with a vision, much like with GW1, and the store was simply a novelty added on top, which provided additional income. Things added to the store did not affect the game itself in a negative way at first. But now it has sunk it’s tendrils so deep into the game’s development, that it really feels like the whole game revolves around it.

Games aren’t just about making money. They are an art form, and they are also about entertainment. When the scales tip too much towards the money-making aspect, it eventually starts to drain fun from the entertainment side of the scales. And this hurts the game overall.

Having read the entire thread, I still would like to respond to the OP:
I understand your point that you feel the game moved obtainable rewards from playing the game to the gem shop.
I don’t feel this way. There is plenty to obtain completely without the gem shop. In fact, I never bought any vanity item from the gem shop and don’t intend to, and don’t feel I am badly rewarded.

But, there is in fact a thing in the shop that really has contamined the game, and that is the convenience items. The everlasting harvesting tools, the copper-fed o-matic, the Captain’s airship pass. I feel that all the consumabe versions of the tools have been deliberately made with so few uses that you have to by them over and over again every day, so players would buy the permanent versions to circumvent these. Nobody would buy the permanent ones, if you could buy consumable tools with 500 or 1000 uses, especially salvaging kits. But 500 or 1000 would be completely sane use values, if you count the plethora of items to harvest or to salvage.

The same with the Airship pass and this new item for teleporting to your personal instance: instead of giving the players access to a NPC service hub with merchant, crafting etc. with the touch of a key like in GW1, where you could use the guild hall for this and even resume to your original place where you started, you sell this convenient access for money.
Everyone wants easy access to the services, but I feel that by forcing the players to travel away just for bank access or crafting, Areanet artificially created demand for the convenience items. If there were no gem shop, I bet access to these services would be as easy as in GW1.

In the end I see the total costs of GW2. For me, the convenience items are a must, since they repair was created broken. So they add to the total cost of GW2. Well, for a game that I play for 2 years not bad – 75 Euro for the whole game, and ~45 additional for the 5 convenience items, totalling 120 Euro. Although the value the 45 Euro items add to the game is not quite as much as the initial 75 Euro would add, since they were the complete game and 45 Euros spent only for the everlasting versions of some ingame item.

My only hope is that the value of these items is somewhat increased in the future, for example by the possibility to create duplicates of them for every twink on my account. Apart from that, I see them as subscription equivalent for my longer use of the game – they don’t really add value to the game, they only cost money and repair what was created broken.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

The game didn’t used to be about that though. …. the store was simply a novelty added on top, which provided additional income.

You can’t be more wrong. The store wasn’t just added on top for some additional income. This game would have been shut down from launch day if it only relied on box sales for income because that’s not a sustainable business model. Roughly … box sales paid for the initial development until release. The store was intended to be there from the beginning as a long term revenue generator.

You can delude yourself all you want about how game are more artistic expressions than part of a business. In the end, the game exists not because it’s an exceptional work of art; it exists because it makes investors money.

Obtena.7952:

You can delude yourself all you want about how game are more artistic expressions than part of a business. In the end, the game exists not because it’s an exceptional work of art; it exists because it makes investors money.

Just like at the end of the day Notch get $1.75 Billion (owning 70% of Mojang) and goes back to play with code.

In his new mountain fortress.

I do believe what Notch said about the fans turning him into more of a symbol than a man though. That kind of pressure would crack a lot of people. Good on him for getting out before he “lived long enough to see himself turn into a villain”.

Zaxares.5419:

I do believe what Notch said about the fans turning him into more of a symbol than a man though. That kind of pressure would crack a lot of people. Good on him for getting out before he “lived long enough to see himself turn into a villain”.

The “This is Phil Fish” video is very insightful. Not so strangely I see the same kind of things happening here, how certain players have become symbols to vilify because the go against the popular forum opinions of the moment.

what i hate the most about this gemstore is the temp.. items like kasmeer staff /belinda’s greatsword etc… its pushes us to pay real money to buy those items cause we don’t get the time to even play the game to get the gold 7days to get enough gold to buy +1000 gems is way to short for the average player

My Attack Will Kill.7816:

what i hate the most about this gemstore is the temp.. items like kasmeer staff /belinda’s greatsword etc… its pushes us to pay real money to buy those items cause we don’t get the time to even play the game to get the gold 7days to get enough gold to buy +1000 gems is way to short for the average player

They’re not one time only items. They come back several times a year.

Ayrilana.1396:

My Attack Will Kill.7816:

what i hate the most about this gemstore is the temp.. items like kasmeer staff /belinda’s greatsword etc… its pushes us to pay real money to buy those items cause we don’t get the time to even play the game to get the gold 7days to get enough gold to buy +1000 gems is way to short for the average player

They’re not one time only items. They come back several times a year.

yea when? guess what we don’t know we can’t start saving gold up for an unknown date, well we can but thats pretty stupid cause other things are coming out too.
who knows if belinda’s greatsword is ever coming back? you assume its coming back but you never know for sure with arenanet. its a bad strategy to push people to buy it with real money

another example is the SAB coin. when is SAB coming back ? nobody knows how typical. what do we actualy know of arenanet plans ? nothing only the living story a little

Don’t save up gold, save up gems.

I convert a very little bit of gold into gems every day, more on Monday’s and Thursday evening play sessions since items tend to be added, return or go on sale Tuesday’s and the Weekend starting Friday.

This way if an item shows up that you want, you either have all or a substantial part of the price already converted at pre-spike prices and then need less gold. I’ve converted gold over the 21 months into 7-8 thousand gems I reckon. And it’s not all my gold and I don’t grind paths or do the major bosses.

And since converting Gems to Gold is at such a disadvantage, this method is perfect as a Gem Shop savings plan. But you have to do it every day, stick with it and not kneejerk buying of every little thing they push out.