Guild Wars 2

Flipping is most certainly a common practice in many economies, and GW2 is no exception. When referring to flipping, we mean the purchase of items from the trading post with the intention to profit from the later sale of the same items, without modifying or enhancing them in any way. A well known example of this in our economy is the set of precursors- where many have been bought at a temporally low price, held on to for a period of a few days, weeks, or even months, and sold for a significant profit.

There are many examples of flipping, from limited weapon and armor skins to T6 crafting materials; likewise, there are just as many market mechanisms that can be used to achieve such ends. The question at hand, though, does not concern the ways in which flipping can be achieved, but rather, whether flipping items on the trading post is within the realm of the spirit of Guild Wars 2.

This is a collection of my own thoughts, and does not necessarily reflect any other player’s attitudes or beliefs:

*Flipping reflects real world market mechanics, and involves some degree of risk
*Flipping may be able to help equalize supply and demand for some items; however, the bulk of the utility goes directly to the flipper
*Flipping does not add value to any item, and therefore the money made from such a transaction has little merit, other than perhaps acumen
*The profit made from flipping an item comes directly at other players’ expenses
*There is no clearly defined line between watching market trends and purchasing materials/items which are intended for use when those items cost relatively less, and watching market trends in order to buy items relatively cheap for profit, other than intention
*Flipping is an easy way to make money for many players
*The anonymity and bulk of the trading post itself allows players to disengage the fact that all transactions are between two individuals
*Those who do not play the trading post are at a distinct disadvantage compared to those who do

There are many thoughts and legitimate points both for and against flipping and similar practices; however, my own gut tells me that flipping truly isn’t in the communal spirit of GW2, so I simply do not participate in it. However, I do watch gw2spidy fairly closely, and choose to buy items I need when their prices are low. So:

tl;dr
What do you think about flipping?

On a personal level, I despise the concept of flipping because it’s essentially earning money while producing nothing of value yourself. In the real world, where supplies, goods and resources are finite, I regard market flippers/speculators as essentially parasites on the world’s economy.

However, in a virtual economy like GW2, I concede that it does little enough real harm, mostly because unlike the real world, where hoarding of resources essentially concentrates a limited supply in the hands of a few, there is nothing stopping other players in GW2 from just going out and creating their own supply from nothing by farming monsters/dungeons. This gives players the power to break monopolies whenever they wish, something which can’t always be done in real world markets.

Furthermore, in-game wealth can only do so much. In the real world, having wealth buys you influence and power. You can corrupt lawful institutions, bribe politicians, secure favourable treatment for you and your clique at the expense of others etc. But you can’t do any of that in GW2. Having 5000 gold in your bank isn’t going to make ANet treat you any different than Joe Newbie who just started his level 1 Guardian yesterday. Sure, you can buy one of every single Legendary and show off in Lion’s Arch all day, but that doesn’t affect anybody else’s game play in the slightest.

I think you just took a simple concept and made it a bit more complex. Flipping is buying low selling high. Its not hard…and if you know how, involves little to no risk.

Its simple because i have made over 800g this way, and i consider it picking up free money people throw away.

Flipping is buying low and selling normal, anyone selling high isn’t doing it right.

Flipping is also entirely harmless, in fact it’s marginally helpful. To acquire items to flip you need to be paying the most for it, which benefits anyone selling. To sell those items you need to have the lowest price, which benefits anyone buying.

At no point is anyone hurt by flipping. I can only buy and sell at what people are willing to accept.

Fans.5462:

At no point is anyone hurt by flipping. I can only buy and sell at what people are willing to accept.

This is an important point. Half the folks that have problems with traders complain that they make prices too high and the other half complain that they make prices too low.

Some folks don’t seem to understand that active trading in an item only changes the price for a short period of time unless something has changed on the supply or demand side. Traders make the little squiggles on the price graph, not the overall trend.

I would also like to point out a key component to flipping that is being over looked. Time. When you post a buy order you are buying an item from a willing seller instantly. When you post an item for sale, the willing buyer receives it instantly. As a flipper, you are taking the time component out of the equation for the people you are dealing with. To say that flipping does not add value is incorrect. Time absolutely has a value.

In our particular instance value is not calculated on the front end, thus it does not add value.

Essence Snow.3194:

In our particular instance value is not calculated on the front end, thus it does not add value.

I’m not sure I understand what you mean. Could you elaborate? I propose that when I flip, I am adding value to the item I am buying and adding value AGAIN to the same item when I sell it. Value does not equal cost.

For the game, flipping (and trading in general) has an direct effect on the game economy; it keeps down the gold inflation. Each time an item is sold, gold worth 15% of the item value is permanent removed from the game. Flipping result in what otherwise would be a single trade now turn into two trades with taxes added each time.

Rebort.6295:

Essence Snow.3194:

In our particular instance value is not calculated on the front end, thus it does not add value.

I’m not sure I understand what you mean. Could you elaborate? I propose that when I flip, I am adding value to the item I am buying and adding value AGAIN to the same item when I sell it. Value does not equal cost.

From my gathering you are taking time as the sole added value. Time saved to the initial seller adds no additional value…….ie they do not lose anything by marginal increase in time of selling. They do not have holding costs and the potential of earning based on time function of funds received is too subjective that it cannot be used to correlate a value. The “value” created in that regards is not objective and thus is not applicable to the overall general value.

Ofc this is in regards to generality for the sole purpose of debate on rule.

Essence Snow.3194:

Rebort.6295:

Essence Snow.3194:

In our particular instance value is not calculated on the front end, thus it does not add value.

I’m not sure I understand what you mean. Could you elaborate? I propose that when I flip, I am adding value to the item I am buying and adding value AGAIN to the same item when I sell it. Value does not equal cost.

From my gathering you are taking time as the sole added value. Time saved to the initial seller adds no additional value…….ie they do not lose anything by marginal increase in time of selling. They do not have holding costs and the potential of earning based on time function of funds received is too subjective that it cannot be used to correlate a value. The “value” created in that regards is not objective and thus is not applicable to the overall general value.

Ofc this is in regards to generality for the sole purpose of debate on rule.

I’m sorry when I said elaborate, I think I meant could you dumb it down. I have no idea what you are talking about. If I go to sell my item I have two choices. I can sell it to a buy order right now or I can list it at a higher price and wait. If I choose to sell to a buy order I am subtracting the difference from what I could sell for if I choose to wait. That amount has a value to me as a seller. The same is true only reversed if I am buying an item. Flippers provide that service to me.

That assumes that flippers are the only ones buying at said price, which is too subjective to be counted as rule.

Is there a difference between a flipper providing that service and average Joe who doesn’t need the item right now but is willing to wait? Or the opposite, wants to sell something but doesn’t need the gold right now? One flipper can facilitate those actions and make some gold for his trouble. I’m not sure if we are getting off topic here. Are you saying that time doesn’t factor into “The Spirit of Flipping?”

Traders are unlikely to flip an item that they aren’t anticipating will trade fairly quickly. While flipping doesn’t harm sellers and buyers, I think it’s a stretch to say buying up goods priced too low on the TP helps the seller.

Lots of trading activity typically only benefits folks with a large supply of an item that they can sell as the price rises or folks that need a large supply of an item and have the gold to buy when the price falls. Basically, the folks in a position to take advantage of small short term price movements.

Basically you r trying to debate exceptions, not generalities and those are not worth debating as there are always exceptions for both sides. As such there is no point in continuing down path of getting nowhere.

I think if people will throw away money, they might as well throw it at me.

I think I understand what you are saying now. I also think you are wrong. Not every transaction is a flip, but every flip takes the risk of the time component. We are talking about flipping so they are not the exception they are the rule.

You said that the time was the value added to the seller. That implies that w/o a flipper no other party would buy in an acceptable (value stand point) time frame. That is an assumption that rule cannot be based on due to it’s non-confirmation nature as well as being individually dependent.

For better or worse, I really enjoy flipping items. It’s fun to buy and sell items for a profit.

Morally, I guess it’s kinda like people trading stocks on Wall Street. I see an item that I think is undervalued and sell it for a price I think people will pay. There’s definitely some (small) risk.

If flipping items increases or decreases the prices, that either helps the buyer or sellers in the market. I don’t think it hurts anyone though.

Versepelles.1972:

*Retailing reflects real world market mechanics, and involves some degree of risk
*Retailing may be able to help equalize supply and demand for some items; however, the bulk of the utility goes directly to the retailer
*Retailing does not add value to any item, and therefore the money made from such a transaction has little merit, other than perhaps acumen
*The profit made from Retailing an item comes directly at other players’ expenses
*There is no clearly defined line between watching market trends and purchasing materials/items which are intended for use when those items cost relatively less, and watching market trends in order to buy items relatively cheap for profit, other than intention
*Retailing is an easy way to make money for many players

tl;dr
What do you think about flipping?

Flipping or retailing is exactly the same activity as your local corner shop. You buy your product cheap from the suppliers (buy orders) and sell it cheaper than your competitors (sell orders).

My opinion on it: i wouldn’t label flipping as “bad”. I even believe that it doesn’t have anything to do with moral in any sense.

If i decide to buy ectos, let’s say 250 for a mystic forge weapon and suddenly i don’t like to acquire the weapon anymore i am stuck with my ectos. If a new patch introduces new weapon skins that require ectos and therefore their price spikes, does it make me a bad person if i sell them? I think not O.o

It’s really as simple as buying an item and reselling it. If you wait 3 weeks and resell it, even 3 hours, you are not a bad person or a market manipulator, you are simply selling to a person who needs those items for that price.

You are actually doing him a favour because if he wouldn’t have bought yours then he would have to buy them for an even higher price.

I’ll gladly learn how that makes someone a bad person

1/ if flipping was that easy, everyone would do it and everyone would be a millionaire. Too many ways that’s impossible.

2/ flipping tends to close margins. A lot of materials are within 1c buy and sell orders. Flipping makes that happen faster. This directly benefits the entire playerbase.

3/ Buy and sell orders require time! Flipping is therefor mostly a time investment where he offers buyer and seller his time in exchange for money. People who don’t have much time benefit from people playing the TP because gets sold faster and is easier to acquire.

4/ the term “flipping” is stupid. The correct terms are speculation and investing. Both carry a pretty hefty risk. It wouldn’t be the first trader being stuck with 100000 of a worthless material. Flipping as a term implies it is a very easy thing to do, which it’s not if you even tried for half a minute.

5/ The GW2 market is the biggest of all MMO markets apart from Eve (maybe). There aren’t many trading opportunities anymore and most have very small windows of time and profit. Speculation is becoming increasingly difficult as the market settles (partly due to traders themselves)

I don’t really “play the market” in this game, mostly because it’s a game. If I had that much time and money to waste on playing markets, I’d rather invest it in the real economy. I’d rather earn 1000€ than 1000 gold.

People make this into a problem where none exists.

Versepelles.1972:

What do you think about flipping?

I find it dull to do, but I like its existence. Every flip of an item I do not intend to buy increases the value of my gold. If someone buys 1000 copper ore at 6 copper each and resells for 1000 for 8 copper each, a total of 2100 copper are removed from the economy. Only 900 would have been removed without flipping. Every copper that is removed from the economy increases the value of the copper in my bank. Every copper not removed from the economy adds to inflation, decreasing the value of copper in my bank.

My personal view is that if you are ‘flipping’ items, you aren’t playing the game at that point- you’re playing the auction house. I’ve always thought items bought from the auction house in any game should become soul/account bound. This also would facilitate removal of items. A certain other recent game has an utterly failed economy with hyperinflation, due to econ-players and lack of item removal. This small step, I feel, would go a long way.

Polarbear.5896:

I’ve always thought items bought from the auction house in any game should become soul/account bound. This also would facilitate removal of items. A certain other recent game has an utterly failed economy with hyperinflation, due to econ-players and lack of item removal.

This would cause inflation in two different ways:
1. It would remove a gold sink.
2. It would increase the ratio of gold : items that can be traded for gold.

It would not combat hyperinflation, but might cause it.

My point was, buy what you intend to use on your characters, not to play Stockmarket Wars. Under normal game play green and up are bind-on-use anyways and, I’m sure gold sinks could be tweaked to compensate.

Fans.5462:

Flipping is buying low and selling normal, anyone selling high isn’t doing it right.

Flipping is also entirely harmless, in fact it’s marginally helpful. To acquire items to flip you need to be paying the most for it, which benefits anyone selling. To sell those items you need to have the lowest price, which benefits anyone buying.

At no point is anyone hurt by flipping. I can only buy and sell at what people are willing to accept.

+1 This is good.

I’d also like to add that flippers are essential in making the market trend towards equilibrium prices and quantities. Whenever an anomaly in the economy occurs, flippers can flock to the item in question, flip by buying higher than the others and selling lower than the other sellers, and, eventually, this helps to bring the market back to equilibrium price, making it easier for buyers and sellers to find a good transaction price.