Guild Wars 2

The invisible hand of economics does not fix the food market and these items cannot even be vendored. I’m not even sure why I should bother putting in the time, game money and effort to level my chef from 300 to 400, when the only thing I can do with the produce is to give it away to my friends. There is absolutely no point listing it on the TP: even at rock bottom price (many silvers lost to me from the production process), matching the bottom sellers, none of this food sells.

As far as I’m concerned and for my needs/purposes, the TP is broken and useless and will remain so as long as it is one economy for all servers. Internal server economy is what is needed. When there are not 10,000 people all offering something at the lowest possible price, then we might get somewhere.

The invisible hand is working, since you are no longer putting food items up on the TP you have decreased the supply. Once enough people stop putting cooking items on the TP the demand will be greater than the supply, causing the price to go up. ANet can increase demand by giving cooking items more buffs if they feel demand for cooking items are not as high as they want.

Yaos.4528:

The invisible hand is working, since you are no longer putting food items up on the TP you have decreased the supply. Once enough people stop putting cooking items on the TP the demand will be greater than the supply, causing the price to go up. ANet can increase demand by giving cooking items more buffs if they feel demand for cooking items are not as high as they want.

It won’t ever work that way because cooking is one of the few professions that can be largely supplied through karma and not through in-world-harvesting.

Sure you need some materials but on the large, you don’t need them all. Where in other professions it is the EXACT same symptoms and they are harvested.

The only way the market will even out in this instance is people stop playing and drop their posts on the TP.

That’s exactly what I said, people will stop putting up items on the TP until it’s profitable. The decrease in supply will cause the TP price of finished cooking goods to increase.

I am out in the field. My bags are full so what do I do?

Instead of deleting an item, I stick it on the broker for 1 copper more than the vender asks. Sure, I lose 15% , but I gain because I just opened up space in my backpack to carry more items I will vender once I hit town.

By deleting items in the field, I lose more money than if I were to put it on the TP for just 1 copper more than a vender asks.

Personally I do not have this issue, I sell constantly and have a huge inventory. But I can understand why people do this if they do not purchase inventory slots like I did.

illgot.1056:

I am out in the field. My bags are full so what do I do?

Instead of deleting an item, I stick it on the broker for 1 copper more than the vender asks. Sure, I lose 15% , but I gain because I just opened up space in my backpack to carry more items I will vender once I hit town.

By deleting items in the field, I lose more money than if I were to put it on the TP for just 1 copper more than a vender asks.

Personally I do not have this issue, I sell constantly and have a huge inventory. But I can understand why people do this if they do not purchase inventory slots like I did.

LoL this is why they should remove the floor…

I’d love to start making money off you lot.

Yaos.4528:

That’s exactly what I said, people will stop putting up items on the TP until it’s profitable. The decrease in supply will cause the TP price of finished cooking goods to increase.

Except it’s a global economy, not a server economy, and so there will always be thousands of people still putting their goods up. Even if 1000 chefs stop putting their food up each week, it would be months before the scenario you mention would stand a chance of taking place.

Long before this, most of us will have stopped crafting altogether. What you describe is NOT a fix.

Why you would even put something on the TP for 1c more?

That’s what I want to know.

For all you people that say you do it because your way out in the middle of nowhere so put them on the TP to save time are you forgetting that the heart guys buy your items as well once you have completed them and they are all over the map.

I think most people arent even paying attention…they go to list an item, and see the current lowest sellers, and because they want to sell it now they undercut that price. This continues over and over until the price hits bottom. Too much junk is for sale on the market to begin with, and most of it at a pointless price that nets no real profit over vendor for the seller. But it is carelessness and laziness that cause it. And nothing will ever change that. Hopefully over time these people get tired of never selling anything and always losing money in fees, and the market corrects. But I think we are still a few months away from that.

Drintar.1246:

souldonkey.9534:

Blighton.6425:

I put it up blindly, if somebody can use it, good for them. I will continue to do so.

Also its better then wasting the time hunting down a vendor when you in the middle of nowhere

This is really stupid because you’re breaking the market. If people like you keep doing this no one can ever make a profit because no one can ever put the same item up on the TP for a higher price. Is it really that difficult to up the price of what your selling a little?

Hell, you don’t even have to do math. If you list something that vendors for 50c and the listing fee says it’s 3c then just ballpark that the 10% fee is 10c. It’s obviously high and that’s fine. so now you’re at 13c in fees (it would actually be 8c) so round that up to 15c. List the item for 65c. Someone will still buy it but now you’ll actually make a profit on it and people that want to list the same item can match your price and also make a profit.

As it stands now, I have to either match your price and lose money or list it at a higher price than yours and never sell it. Listing items at 1c above vendor is lazy, wasteful, and it breaks the economy.

Or you know you could BUY his low priced stuff and relist it at a higher price….just sayin

The issue here is that at this time, a gold is an incredible effort to make on the Trading Post. Tradeskills do not allow for money to be made from them because the items that they create a overflowing the market.

Also, in case you didn’t know, while relisting items may work well on a smaller auction, here the Trading Post is WORLD wide. This means that he would need to buy and re-list ~900 Pillaging Staffs before he could acually sell them. While he is trying to sell, there would be ~100 more listed b/c the market started moving. On a server wide TP this cannot happen and the market becomes profitable.

Sadly ANet enjoys this because it keeps players buying gold because its nearly impossible to make decent money on the Trading Post without a large amount of time/effort.

I’m seeing two different expectations on gettng paid here, and I’m hoping someone can clear this up for me, and perhaps it will help others as well.

I was under the impression that if you put something in the TP, you didn’t get paid until it was sold. If this is true, then you’re losing A LOT of money by not just vendoring the junk, as it could be a long time before those items sell (if ever).

The people that are arguing for using the TP as a junk bank, selling at only 1c over vendor prices, make it sound like they get paid right away. Granted, you have to go pick up your money from a trader, but if the TP pays you regardless as to whether or not people buy it, this sounds like a broken mechanic.

Which is it? Do you not get paid until it sells? Or do you get paid the list price regardless (minus fees)?

You don’t get paid till it sells.

For those pointing out the bad math in the OP, you have my thanks. It’s fixed now.

Just to be clear, the original post was designed as a friendly explanation for those who may have been confused about what the item tooltips might actually have meant or how the Trading Post actually works.

As for those using it as cheap, limitless, wireless storage, I would have to check with Anet to see if this allowance is deliberate. You have to visit a Trading Post NPC or spend gems to pick up purchases and earnings, yet it seems many find it to be handy to use the TP as not only an ever present vendor, but also a bank. I really couldn’t tell you if that’s considered exploitation or not. If it is I’d imagine they would have let us know by now.

Tanaquil.9314:

You don’t get paid till it sells.

Thank you Tanaquil.

I think that in this case what really needs to be pointed out to some of the TP bankers is that they aren’t making ANY money from listing junk on the TP, they are in fact losing money.

The listing fee is taken out of your wallet as soon as you post the item. If it never sells, you just lost that money. You could just as easily right-click destroy the item to clear up pack space and not lose any money. At least when you vendor the junk you get a little cash out of it, and if you really need the pack space, I would suggest salvage/depositing it – I think the demand for crafting materials will be around for a while yet.

I don’t think this hurts the economy at all though, they’re just hurting themselves in the long run. The things I see listed for 1c over vendor prices are usually listed in groups of 5k-10k. The fact that there are so many of them is why the price is low. But when I see something that there is only 5 of, they’re selling for 2-3x the vendor price (which is still low for a rare item like that imo, but it’s much better than 1c over vendor).

It will be interesting to see the economy in a few months.

dippy.8961:

Tanaquil.9314:

You don’t get paid till it sells.

Thank you Tanaquil.

I think that in this case what really needs to be pointed out to some of the TP bankers is that they aren’t making ANY money from listing junk on the TP, they are in fact losing money.

The listing fee is taken out of your wallet as soon as you post the item. If it never sells, you just lost that money. You could just as easily right-click destroy the item to clear up pack space and not lose any money. At least when you vendor the junk you get a little cash out of it, and if you really need the pack space, I would suggest salvage/depositing it – I think the demand for crafting materials will be around for a while yet.

I don’t think this hurts the economy at all though, they’re just hurting themselves in the long run. The things I see listed for 1c over vendor prices are usually listed in groups of 5k-10k. The fact that there are so many of them is why the price is low. But when I see something that there is only 5 of, they’re selling for 2-3x the vendor price (which is still low for a rare item like that imo, but it’s much better than 1c over vendor).

It will be interesting to see the economy in a few months.

Scenario: My inventory is full.

What is more profitable, deleting an item, or posting it on the TP at a 5% loss and reclaiming it in town when you can finally vender items?

Rolo.9248:

Vexus.5423:

And yet, I can sell that item from anywhere, getting it out of my inventory, for a “15%” convenience fee. I don’t think I have a problem with that.

Or you could salvage and send to vault from anywhere and sell the mats for a real profit later. I believe that’s a “have your cake and eat it too” scenario.

Please explain that one to me. Right now I have a 50 copper 2 handed sword. I just salvaged it into 2 iron ore which sell for 6 copper each. OK Mr. math major tell me how 12 copper is > 50 copper?

Dabrixmgp.4758:

Rolo.9248:

Vexus.5423:

And yet, I can sell that item from anywhere, getting it out of my inventory, for a “15%” convenience fee. I don’t think I have a problem with that.

Or you could salvage and send to vault from anywhere and sell the mats for a real profit later. I believe that’s a “have your cake and eat it too” scenario.

Please explain that one to me. Right now I have a 50 copper 2 handed sword. I just salvaged it into 2 iron ore which sell for 6 copper each. OK Mr. math major tell me how 12 copper is > 50 copper?

it isn’t. I do not salvage anything but starter level cloth gear (level 1-20) because jute still sells well. Everything else is vendered if it doesn’t sell for a profit on the TP.

ITT: People got no idea that even if all players were fully aware of all the fees and how much money exactly are they losing it would make NO DIFFERENCE.

It wouldn’t make you able to sell your items for more!

If everyone took all the fees into consideration and even didn’t want to pay even 1c for convenience of clearing bags anywhere, they would simply list them at 15% higher than vendor price – effectively getting the same.

What’s wrong about cheap items?

Lets make it simple so this discussion ends.People who did not pass math class, or economics, if you put an item on the TP for 1c under vendor cost and factor in the 15% vig. You are LOSING money plain and simple end of discussion. Don not pass go do not collect 200 dollars. NUFF SAID. But continue to do so at your own ignorance by all means.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but one reason why the prices are so so so low is because the items people put in TP doesn’t expire. We get flooded by low priced items that nets us less than the vendor because, drum roll please, of the default option to “match the lowest price”!!

With those two combined, we get a TP that will never fix itself even if we everybody starts amassing 1000 golds each.

We need a long-term solution.

1. All posted items should have expiration.
   1. The players can choose from 1-day, 3-days, 7-days, and 15-days.
   2. The higher the ‘days’ of posting, the expensive the listing fee will be
   3. The ‘hidden’ sales fee depends on the rarity type of the item
2. Instead of “match the lowest seller”, it should be “match the average price” or better yet just show the average price of the item instead of offering “match the average price”
   1. It is better that way because the average price will always fluctuate based on the lowest and the highest prices. (Of course, use a couple of items to compute it, not just the lowest and highest, otherwise, players will be able to hijack the average price, making it useless).

By doing things that way, they can even add events like “TP sales day for the next 60 minutes, in celebration of <PLayer> finding the rarest item of all and putting it up in the TP!” And who knows what else.

Honestly, the TP does need a major change. Again, the “match the lowest seller” and the “permanent listing” is what’s killing the TP prices across the board. It’s deadly and we’re seeing the effects. I highly doubt it will correct itself in the next 12-24 months with those two features intact.

People doesn’t like to check, and because we can post listing to the TP regardless of where we are, people are making it a “trash can”. They don’t really care if they are losing money, as long as they don’t need to run to an NPC just to get inventory space.

In other words, people just click “sell” and “ok”, with the setting defaulting to “match the lowest seller”, and those items not expiring. Boom. Dead TP.

Epic post lol The sad is I just do not think it will change anything at all. It usually ruin my sales so I just salvage everything XD
But I really think it will change with time, someday they will see it for themselves.

Kyran Foxfire.4139:

When you post an item for a single copper above what the vendors will buy it for, you lose a substantial amount of money on a successful sale.

True story.

There seems to be some confusion on how the Trading Post actually works as I do not believe each and every individual in this category is aware that they are a charity giver. The game interface doesn’t make it completely clear what is going on so allow me to shed some light on the matter.

As per the wiki, there are costs to selling:

The listing fee for selling on the Trading Post is 5% of the sales price. This listing fee is not returned even if the listing is cancelled. Upon successful trade an additional 10% fee is deducted from the price, i.e. the total cost of a successful sale is 15%.

The minimum listing fee is 1 copper, and at least the listing fees seem to be mathematically rounded (Meaning: 29 copper sales price = 1,45 Copper fee -> rounded down to 1 Copper, 30 copper sales price = 1.5 copper sales fee, rounded up to 2 copper)

For example, if you find a weapon that sells for 99c at the vendor and you put it on the TP for 1 Silver, you instantly lose 5 silver just for posting that listing. In the event that it actually sells, they buyer pays 1s for that weapon and you receive 90c. The net result is that your 1s weapon earned you 85c when you could have simply sold to a vendor for 99c.

Let’s recap. You find an item that’s worth 50c and you want to sell it. Here are a couple of options:

Sell to Vedor for 50c
*You receive 50c
*Instant deposit

Post to TP for 51c
*Wait, possibly hours or days
*May not sell at all – lose 3c for nothing (5% listing fee = 2.55c, then round up)
*Once sold, you have to run to a TP NPC to collect earnings
*You net 43c (-3c Listing Fee -(10% sale price = 5.1c rounded down)) = -8c

Believe it or not, many MANY of you are opting for the latter option, taking 43c with more effort over 50c. You lose substantially more coin with higher value items.

If the math gives you a headache*, just sell to the vendor. You’ll make substantially more money this way.

*[Edit: Fixed math from 38c to 43c because I didn’t proofread after making adjustments to examples the first time. >_<]

To put it in business terms.

On a macroeconomic scale all you are doing is stagnating the economy. On any one item, thousands selling for a loss that may take years to sell if ever.

On a microeconomic scale, you are not only selling for a substantial loss, but you are hurting your own personal cash flow by tieing potential liquid assets into a market that you may or may not ever actually recover any currency from. This because you do NOT receive the cash until the sale is complete. You may as well have thrown the item away for what the TP just did for you.

For the simple people out there, using the TP as a “bank” for your items is stupid. You will not receive payment until (or more likely if) the items ever actually sell, then you take a substantial loss for the sale. Get bigger bags and stop at a heart merchant more often and clear them out. Since you do NOT have to keep stackable collectibles in the bag (they can be sent immediately to your bank collectible tab from anywhere in the game) there is absolutely no reason you cannot keep some room clear in your bags until you get to a merchant and sell for immediate coin.

Ticlet.6489:

Lets make it simple so this discussion ends.People who did not pass math class, or economics, if you put an item on the TP for 1c under vendor cost and factor in the 15% vig. You are LOSING money plain and simple end of discussion. Don not pass go do not collect 200 dollars. NUFF SAID. But continue to do so at your own ignorance by all means.

Actually you are not losing any money. Think about it. It didn’t cost you anything but time to kill that mob and pick up the item. You then put it on the TP from the field. You didn’t spend any money using waypoints to get to a vender. Not to mention it still didn’t cost you anything to begin with.

If you only made 1 copper(plus the 15% it costs to put the item on the TP) you just made a profit.

This is just one of the things that I dont understand with people selling. Getting less for an item by using TP to sell it instead of running to the vendor boggles me. There is a vendor at every possible point as you level, no excuses to getting a full backpack, every heart is a vendor you can sell to, every repair guy and you guessed it, every merchant will take your stuff.

So what else bothers me with people that use the TP to sell or place buy orders. Well I sit here with some crafting mats in my backpack/bank that I dont use, I feel like I should sell it for some fast cash on TP. I go have a look and check the highest buyer. Turns out hes offering 2c less per unit than a vendor would. Why should I bother selling to him when I can run 10 yards down some stairs to a vendor and just sell it to him, instead of running all the way to TP and get less?

Are people really that cheap in this game? Like why should i sell butter sticks to a player for 1c when the vendor gives 1c aswell, I lose on selling to the player.

And this isnt just some odd crafting mats we are talking about, its many of them, they just arent worth selling on TP, still the demand can be quite large, large but very cheap.

IMO A-Net should implement a lowest price on TP which is 1.5 times vendor price. Currently you need to take 1.15 times the vendor price to break even. If A-net sets a lowest price for sell orders and buy orders I think more people will bother selling at the TP instead of just vendoring the stuff people are too cheap to place a proper buy order on.

SneakyErvin.3056:

This is just one of the things that I dont understand with people selling. Getting less for an item by using TP to sell it instead of running to the vendor boggles me. There is a vendor at every possible point as you level, no excuses to getting a full backpack, every heart is a vendor you can sell to, every repair guy and you guessed it, every merchant will take your stuff.

So what else bothers me with people that use the TP to sell or place buy orders. Well I sit here with some crafting mats in my backpack/bank that I dont use, I feel like I should sell it for some fast cash on TP. I go have a look and check the highest buyer. Turns out hes offering 2c less per unit than a vendor would. Why should I bother selling to him when I can run 10 yards down some stairs to a vendor and just sell it to him, instead of running all the way to TP and get less?

Are people really that cheap in this game? Like why should i sell butter sticks to a player for 1c when the vendor gives 1c aswell, I lose on selling to the player.

And this isnt just some odd crafting mats we are talking about, its many of them, they just arent worth selling on TP, still the demand can be quite large, large but very cheap.

IMO A-Net should implement a lowest price on TP which is 1.5 times vendor price. Currently you need to take 1.15 times the vendor price to break even. If A-net sets a lowest price for sell orders and buy orders I think more people will bother selling at the TP instead of just vendoring the stuff people are too cheap to place a proper buy order on.

What we need is this

We need to kill that perma-listed items and that “match the lowest seller” feature. Replace it with better ones as I explained above and in the link I shared.

The listing fee was obvious to anyone, but there’s a sale’s fee as well? Outrageous!

Sal.4672:

The listing fee was obvious to anyone, but there’s a sale’s fee as well? Outrageous!

Not what the topic is about. It’s about getting less from TP than from a vendor. About people not being fully aware what they miss out on.

You need to sell items for 15% higher than vendor value to break even when using the TP, many people dont and just sell it for 1c higher, at which point its not worth it unless you sell stacks with x units in it, where x needs to cover listing fees and TP cut before the stack starts to give you profit.

My point is that, if you are too lazy to go and cut down woods, harvest or mine you should atleast be prepared to pay for the items people offer you to cover their tool cost, listing fee, TP cut and time spent, otherwise get your hiney out there and work for your mats.

Yeah, I have never ever seen this in an MMO, and Ive played plenty of different ones. Ive never seen people post things for 1unit of currency above what the value is at the vendor, especially when there are AH fees. People, youre only wasting your time and money.

The downside to all of this is that when we go to post a green or yellow item on the TP, and find out that there are already 25 other sellers selling for 1 copper above vendor value, we say “Fine, I’ll just vendor…”, and this does not help the economy at all. Its hurting the economy and not giving it a chance to grow.

Someone explain me why does it matter when people put whites and blues on sale on TP at a loss just cause they can free up inventory. How is this a problem? Those are not the items that you make profit on TP to start with. Level 80 whites and blues are good for people to salvage to get materials, that’s about it, or to meet the quote of monthly achievement.

The reason some people put items on sale at ridiculously low prices are the following: they are bad at math, they don’t know of the 10% fee, they know what the minimum seller price is while not knowing of any other prices (which you can only see when you select “Buy more”) and they are not willing to be patient and want their money now. Crafters themselves might not even realise it costs more than 1g to craft an exotic weapon, add in not knowing the 10% selling fee and voila, you can see lvl80 exotics sold at 1g40s(+-). Then the crafters who spend time gathering all the needed mats, thus not wasting any money on the creation can sell at 1g40s and make profit, while they could make double or tripple the amount, but they either want the money fast or they get deceived by only seeing the lowest seller price.
While selling a Mystic Pistol for 6g45s95c, I had to wait… omg a day… before all the people could sell their 50 levels plus lots of mats combination for 3 gold (can be argued that I sold too cheap as well, but the next price was 15 gold, so I dunno).

If people are selling lvl70+ rares close to vendor price, buy them, pretty much free ectos.

IMHO we just need the following changes to make the TP work:

- delete the ability to sell items on the TP from everywhere. Make people need to go to a TP vendor to sell things. You need to go there to collect your items, so it makes only sense to go there to sell them

- for each auction, show the exact amount of fee that is taken by the TP in a prominent way (like in the centre of the screen.. bold type)

- get rid of the “match lowest price” button

This would help.. a lot.

ha, great public service post!! It always confused me why there are so many items posted for 1 copper greater than vend price.

Look people, if you want to blow 5% of what you would have made, be my guest (it’s not 15%, because the junk blues and greens you are listing aren’t actually going to sell- they’ll just sit there forever until you finally cancel your listings and sell them to the vendor like you should have done to start with).

It’s no skin of my nose, or off the OP’s. This is just a public service announcement. Feel free to blow your money however you like.

As for you can’t find a vendor- every heart you fill is a vendor. Sure, he sells stuff for karma, but when you sell stuff to him, he’ll give you gold for it (well, copper and silver, anyway).

Posting something that nets less than a vendor is really weak. Walk to a merchant. They’re fairly common. I end up vendoring/salvaging most drops. People will keep undercutting. I wish that the minimum listing price was enough to still net 1c, because these yahoos will keep undercutting, unaware that they’re giving money away. Although I do think the claim that it’s an altruistic act is pretty funny. A bunch of Robin Hoods running around Tyria.

Kailthir.6384:

Actually you are not losing any money. Think about it. It didn’t cost you anything but time to kill that mob and pick up the item. You then put it on the TP from the field. You didn’t spend any money using waypoints to get to a vender. Not to mention it still didn’t cost you anything to begin with.

Actually, it instantly costs you 5% to use the TP. That much is a guaranteed loss.

As far as costing time, in the real world time does indeed have cost, one can argue this to be true in game as well. For example, if you need to scrounge up 20s or 1g for training manuals for your chosen class and you only have a couple hours a night to play, you will want to use this time effectively. You can spend a couple minutes running to your nearest vendor (if you do not want to use a waypoint) to get your money right away, or you can use the TP to post your loot, losing 5% immediately in hopes of gaining 85% of the vendor value in the coming days. If they do sell, you must find a TP NPC to make your claim. In most cases this ends up spending money without saving time.

If you end up short for your training manual when the time comes, you will have to spend more time finding ways to make up the difference before you can continue to advance your character proper. Selling things directly to a vendor while working up to this point would have easily covered this difference. The amount of coin collected per hour of gameplay would certainly have been higher and the only difference is an occasional walk to any of the ubiquitous vendors.

The long and short of it is that the TP makes for good storage as there’s no obvious expiration on listings on a flooded market, but your wasting both time and money actually trying to sell loot for a 1c premium.

Ticlet.6489:

Lets make it simple so this discussion ends.People who did not pass math class, or economics, if you put an item on the TP for 1c under vendor cost and factor in the 15% vig. You are LOSING money plain and simple end of discussion. Don not pass go do not collect 200 dollars. NUFF SAID. But continue to do so at your own ignorance by all means.

except they are not. If they are posting things on the TP because they are out in the field and their inventory is full, better they sell at a 5%-15% loss than delete the item to make room for more junk.

They are not losing money, they are just using the TP as an in the field vender to junk items.

Now as for an actual suggestion, I would love to see them lower the sale price to 1 cooper below vender price. That way people that want to sit there and buy up the junk can clear up the TP and make a little money doing so.

I’m sure doing so will help the servers vs having 157865848 of the same item at the same low vender price sitting on the TP.

Why allow someone to make 1 copper by purchasing it an item posted at 1 copper less than vender price? Because over all it will take more money out of the economy (10%). Posters are charged 5% by posting an item in the field, then another 10% when it sells. If those posters are forced to just cancel the auction when they get to town and vendering it themselves, only 5% of the items value is taken out of the economy. But if that item is bought by a new player who wants to make 1 copper, then an additional 10% of that items value is taken out of the economy.

ANet gains, every servers economy gains (by lowering the amount of money in the server), the seller gains, and new players looking to make cash gain. All this if they allow items to be posted on the TP for 1 copper less than vender price.

The answer is easier.

Remove the ability to sell an item on the trading post unless you are at an actual trading post whether in town or via the black lion trader express that you can buy from the gem store (I mean really, it serves zero purpose currently. Do you really need to pick up your profits while you are stuck in a dungeon?)

That would add a significant cost to “convenience” banking and prices would stabilize.