Trading Post Progressive Reform

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Posted by: Essence Snow.3194

Essence Snow.3194

I’ll keep it simple and suggest 2 things.

1) Progressive Taxation~ The more you make from the trading post the more you pay in taxes.
example) If a player makes 100g in a week, they pay 15% like we currently do. If they make 1k g a week, they pay 30%.

2) Listing Time Limits~ After a set amount of time your listing is returned to you.
example) After 3 months of not selling items are returned to the sender minus the listing fee, which is kept as a carrying fee.

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Posted by: Wanze.8410

Wanze.8410

1) How do you plan on measuring profits?
If you can illustrate a way of doing this without giving every single item a unique ID and without me finding a way around your suggestion, i will support this.
2) For what purpose? I dont see what improvement this is going to achieve.

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(edited by Wanze.8410)

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Posted by: Essence Snow.3194

Essence Snow.3194

1) measure on a period scale……really no other way I can think of it…..like our rl taxes

2) It helps keep markets liquid. Stale listings incur 5% penalty (the listing fee) so players are more apt to price appropriately for sale and not use the TP as a bank.

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Posted by: Ensign.2189

Ensign.2189

What are you trying to accomplish with this?

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Posted by: Essence Snow.3194

Essence Snow.3194

Trying to make the TP as a sink more efficient.

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Posted by: Zaxares.5419

Zaxares.5419

I think the first idea would be too problematic to implement (at what line do we draw the “tax brackets”?), and it might very well drive sellers of very expensive items like Precursors to avoid the TP altogether, thus reducing supply and increasing grey market trading. For those reasons, I can’t support this idea.

The second idea is a bit more feasible, in that it would prevent stockpiles building up at price points that will never be met. (For example, sellers offering white salvage items at 15g apiece.) At the same time though, I don’t think the benefit it offers is worth redoing the TP scripting and dealing with potential new bugs or lost items that might occur.

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Posted by: Wanze.8410

Wanze.8410

1) measure on a period scale……really no other way I can think of it…..like our rl taxes

2) It helps keep markets liquid. Stale listings incur 5% penalty (the listing fee) so players are more apt to price appropriately for sale and not use the TP as a bank.

1) I misunderstood your first proposition, i thought you meant actual profit from flipping for example and not selling items in general. What is wrong with someone selling stuff for 1000g per week? It helps keep markets liquid, something you are trying to achieve with your 2nd suggestion.
And do you pay taxes retroactively? Lets say i sold items worth 900g within a week, so i pay 15% taxes on it. At the end of the week, i sell another item for 200g. Do I pay 15g taxes for the first 100g and 30g for the second 100g? Or do i have to pay 30% taxes for for the 1k gold between 100-1100g?

2) This would just lead to lesser listings on the tp in general compared to overall supply within peoples storage. That would make markets more prone to price spikes during sudden demand because there would only be listings clustered around the old market value. A speculators paradise, lets go for it. People like me, who use their guild slots for personal storage will have a huge advantage over regular players. At 500% profit, i wouldnt even care about 30% taxes anymore.

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Posted by: Behellagh.1468

Behellagh.1468

Trying to make the TP as a sink more efficient.

Stick it to those evil TP flippers. EVIL FLIPPERS!!

We are heroes. This is what we do!

RIP City of Heroes

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Posted by: Essence Snow.3194

Essence Snow.3194

I think the first idea would be too problematic to implement (at what line do we draw the “tax brackets”?), and it might very well drive sellers of very expensive items like Precursors to avoid the TP altogether, thus reducing supply and increasing grey market trading. For those reasons, I can’t support this idea.

The second idea is a bit more feasible, in that it would prevent stockpiles building up at price points that will never be met. (For example, sellers offering white salvage items at 15g apiece.) At the same time though, I don’t think the benefit it offers is worth redoing the TP scripting and dealing with potential new bugs or lost items that might occur.

I understand concerns about increasing the grey market. I thought about that as well. I came to the conclusion that a windfall is a windfall. It’s kinda like complaining that free money isn’t enough even when it’s far beyond normal. That combined with the chances of being ripped off in p2p trading would alleviate most of aversion for such.

For the scripting/coding. I really don’t think it would be too complex. After all they already have the tax code imbedded.

1) I misunderstood your first proposition, i thought you meant actual profit from flipping for example and not selling items in general. What is wrong with someone selling stuff for 1000g per week? It helps keep markets liquid, something you are trying to achieve with your 2nd suggestion.
And do you pay taxes retroactively? Lets say i sold items worth 900g within a week, so i pay 15% taxes on it. At the end of the week, i sell another item for 200g. Do I pay 15g taxes for the first 100g and 30g for the second 100g? Or do i have to pay 30% taxes for for the 1k gold between 100-1100g?

2) This would just lead to lesser listings on the tp in general compared to overall supply within peoples storage. That would make markets more prone to price spikes during sudden demand because there would only be listings clustered around the old market value. A speculators paradise, lets go for it. People like me, who use their guild slots for personal storage will have a huge advantage over regular players. At 500% profit, i wouldn’t even care about 30% taxes anymore.

1) Nothing is wrong with it per se. It simply means that such a player can afford to pay more in taxes without being detrimental to their necessities. Let’s face it even with such a system high end income methods will still remain the most effective. That said those players participating will likely not move on to other less “productive” methods.

In terms of the scaling I’m not set. Most likely it would not be retroactive. Each period would be independent of the next. This would hopefully keep it spikes at bay as players would want to spread out profits between periods to minimize higher taxation. Players who delve at the higher end are very aware of current factors….this would be no different.

2) I’m not exactly sure I understand you on this front. Are you implying that there are enough long term listings at relevant prices to act as supply walls? I am of the belief that long term listing do not act as such for the same reason to why they are long term in the 1st place……extremely high listing prices. I believe that players personal storage acts as a better buffer for spikes. As prices spike players are more likely to sell what they have in their banks.

Can you please explain in further detail why you believe listing that do not sell detour spiking?

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Posted by: Wanze.8410

Wanze.8410

1) Well, in general, Selling alot of loot through the tp doesnt neccesarily mean high profits.
Of course, speculators for example will be hit with the higher tax (and can afford it) because they usually sell their supply during high demand spikes. But what about farmboi joe, who generates alot of gold just through farming mats all week long? Why should he be hit with higher tax while he does a good service to the community (keeping mat prices down while sinking more gold than generating gold)?
What about crafter Jenny, who refines iron worth 800g then sells it for 1000g per week, operating at a 5% profit margin after taxes? Your suggestion will destroy her business, while she also did a service to the community. People who rather paid her the 5% profit margin than refining themselves, have to do so now themselves or pay an additional 15% as a sink.
And even flippers/speculators who make lots of profit on the tp, in over 2 years this still hasnt been proven to be a problem for the economy. In fact, their operation benefits the economy in multiple ways, so why put the burden of gold sinking on them?

If gold inflation in GW2 seems to be a problem (which still has to be proven) why punish those that actively sink gold out of the economy? Shouldnt we punish those that are responsible for generating gold? Why not put extra tp taxes on dungeon runners, once they generate more than 100g per week from dungeon rewards (or any other gold rewarding playstyle)?

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Posted by: laokoko.7403

laokoko.7403

The first idea is a bit too complicated(too hard to implement).

The 2nd idea is ok. (actually I like it). I think the dev says they dont’ want it though because it harms long term investment.

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Posted by: Wanze.8410

Wanze.8410

2) Thats basically right. Of course, i look at this from a speculators point of view because thats what i mostly do on the tp. I place alot of items at prices that I am sure wont be paid for a while (even though, in general, i expect them to sell within 3 months). I usually try to forecast higher demand for items within the next months or so. Sometimes im wrong, Jeweller 500 is a good example, i bought up mats in anticipation of this over a year ago and its still not around and lots of my listings for jeweller mats are more than 3 months old. But when I listed those mats, i didnt intend to use the TP as storage but to sell at that price, the difference might seem semantic but it isnt. People just use the TP listings as storage, if they intend to cancel their listing before the price reaches their listing price.
If I, as a speculator, cant list my items at 2, 3, or 4 times their current value because i have to fear that it might not sell within 3 months, it doesnt make me sell it at current value but rather keep it in my personal storage. If I have it stored in my bank, its not accessible as general supply, if demand spikes. It requires me to be online at that time and gives me the possibility to observe the market and list at a higher price than i intentionally would have. So if im not online at all, my supply is useless to rebalance the market, if i am online, I am way more flexible in the selling price compared to having listed it.
Lets take Beryl Orbs as an example:
http://www.gw2tp.com/item/24520-beryl-orb?full=1

BOs have been hovering around 2s vendor value for the longest time. In fact, the only time sell listings went over 3s was during last January, during speculation of jeweller 500 being released (lets disregard the first 2 months the game went life, Orbs actually had some decent demand there).
BOs have a supply of 28k on the TP but only around 50% of those listings are between 2-3 silver (GW2TP now shows the value and amount of all sell listings posted), most of them clustered at 2.33s, the lowest possible listing. I myself have 2000 listed around 4s and several hundred more at 5 and 6 silver.

With your proposal, basically half of the supply on the TP would be sent back to their sellers, who can either relist, store or vendor their Orbs. Personally I would store them in my guild bank. Most people would either do the same or sell them to vendor because selling them at 2.33s isnt guaranteed either within 3 months, with more than 12k listings ahead of you. If people sell to vendor, they decrease overall supply (which is bad once demand sets in) and increase gold generation, which is bad for inflation.

Now Jeweller 500 finally gets around and demand is there. Instead of 25k listings between 2.3 and 10s, you only have around 12.5k listings up until 2.5s.
Sure most players will propably have a full stack of Beryl Orbs in their collection tab ofr their own use, and they wont even know that there is a real BO shortage on the TP right now because they dont check. They just start checking, once their personal reserve is gone. During the initial spike, its mostly speculators, that add supply during the first couple of hours. But my supply wall of 2k BOs isnt there anymore at 4s, its in my bank and I most certainly wont start selling them at 4s, once the supply went dry. I start listing 100 each at 10s and see how it goes. If my supply wall was still at 4s, the chance of people undercutting me and adding to that wall would be more likely, preventing the price spke towards 10s.

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Posted by: Essence Snow.3194

Essence Snow.3194

@ Wanze

1) I think that for a farmer to be farming so much as to be negatively effected by this something is up. Farming simply doesn’t produce enough consistently. If for some reason a farmer were to stockpile goods to sell at once, ignoring the tax brackets…well that is simply their choice.

On the crafter/refiner……That’s a pretty solid point…I’ll have to think about it some more.

I’d like to answer this bit directly “why put the burden of gold sinking on them?”
There is a very easy answer for this…..Because they are allowed the ability to earn exponentially more than anyone else in the game. Simple as that. Why should be treated the same when profit potential isn’t the same?

2) 3 months is not set. We could move it out to 6, heck a year. Your example would require a rather specific set of occurrences to happen. The chances of that happening to where it matters are rather unlikely.

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Posted by: Wanze.8410

Wanze.8410

1) I think the majority of earnings on the tp come from doing tasks that other people rather not do and prefer someone else to do it for them. Be it salvaging in bulk, crafting, opening containers, farming, flipping or storing items, or having patience.
All those activities are deemed playing the game as intended and act as a gold sink when combined with selling on the TP (with lootbags the exception as they usually generate a couple of copper when opened but i think that amount is irrelevant as long as its not more than 15% of the value that comes out of the bag).
So i ask again, why not punish those with higher taxes that generate more gold than they sink?

2) At 6 or 12 months until a listing is removed, it will hardly affect anybody and considering the amount of items traded within that time, it will have next to no effect on market liquidity, your intended goal.

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Posted by: mtpelion.4562

mtpelion.4562

From an inflation perspective, it would make more sense to simply add harsher diminishing returns on raw gold generation (dungeon rewards, mob drops, event coin, selling things to vendors, etc.) rather than increase the TP taxes on a minority of users.

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Posted by: Wanze.8410

Wanze.8410

From an inflation perspective, it would make more sense to simply add harsher diminishing returns on raw gold generation (dungeon rewards, mob drops, event coin, selling things to vendors, etc.) rather than increase the TP taxes on a minority of users.

Good Point.

But i guess his initial intention was to specifically curb profits on the tp compared to people who run dungeons, fractals or trains.

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Posted by: Essence Snow.3194

Essence Snow.3194

Curbing the faucets would be more detrimental as rewards are already seen as substandard by most who profit from them.

Ofc they could add item reward to offset curbing pure gold faucets.

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Posted by: mtpelion.4562

mtpelion.4562

Curbing the faucets would be more detrimental as rewards are already seen as substandard by most who profit from them.

Using a “progressive” tax system would result in one of two situations:

1. Income threshold set low-medium: Tax on significant portion of player base results in overall trading volume decreasing to the point where gold sink no longer functions. Inflation rampant.

2. Income threshold set high: Tax on insignificant number of accounts, adds no value in terms of inflation control, but does cause significant price increases on high end goods in order to get around taxes while remaining profitable.

In both cases, you’ve only succeeding in hurting the general economy (as all “progressive” tax systems do when you strip away the “funding welfare” aspect of them).

EDIT: Yes, adding more items to offset the reduced gold would be a good approach.

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Posted by: Wanze.8410

Wanze.8410

Funny though, how your goal went from
“Trying to make the TP as a sink more efficient.”
and
“It helps keep markets liquid”
To
Potential Earnings on the TP should be brought more in line with the rest of the reward structures.

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Posted by: Essence Snow.3194

Essence Snow.3194

Curbing the faucets would be more detrimental as rewards are already seen as substandard by most who profit from them.

Using a “progressive” tax system would result in one of two situations:

1. Income threshold set low-medium: Tax on significant portion of player base results in overall trading volume decreasing to the point where gold sink no longer functions. Inflation rampant.

2. Income threshold set high: Tax on insignificant number of accounts, adds no value in terms of inflation control, but does cause significant price increases on high end goods in order to get around taxes while remaining profitable.

In both cases, you’ve only succeeding in hurting the general economy (as all “progressive” tax systems do when you strip away the “funding welfare” aspect of them).

EDIT: Yes, adding more items to offset the reduced gold would be a good approach.

on #2…Those accounts use the TP to funnel gold……ie sorta like crowd sourcing from the masses to a few. By placing higher taxes on those few, it would indirectly tax the masses from which those accounts draw from. It would simply be the price paid to have such privilege to make the most profit in the game.

Time and time again we have been told high end items are not the ones flipped/profited from consistently. So either this is a non issue or they have not been forthright with eluding to such.

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Posted by: Essence Snow.3194

Essence Snow.3194

Funny though, how your goal went from
“Trying to make the TP as a sink more efficient.”
and
“It helps keep markets liquid”
To
Potential Earnings on the TP should be brought more in line with the rest of the reward structures.

Under these revisions they wouldn’t be brought in line with other methods. They would still be unlimited and by far the most profitable. It’s simply adding a condition for that privilege.

To coin Smooth…Why do players with the highest reward allocation feel so Entitled as to not have the added condition, specially since it would allow them to remain with the highest allocation?

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(edited by Essence Snow.3194)

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Posted by: Wanze.8410

Wanze.8410

I’d like to answer this bit directly “why put the burden of gold sinking on them?”
There is a very easy answer for this…..Because they are allowed the ability to earn exponentially more than anyone else in the game. Simple as that. Why should be treated the same when profit potential isn’t the same?

But everybody is allowed to do what those players do, some players just opt against it.

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Posted by: Essence Snow.3194

Essence Snow.3194

That’s not really a valid reason not to have them.

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Posted by: Wanze.8410

Wanze.8410

Funny though, how your goal went from
“Trying to make the TP as a sink more efficient.”
and
“It helps keep markets liquid”
To
Potential Earnings on the TP should be brought more in line with the rest of the reward structures.

Under these revisions they wouldn’t be brought in line with other methods. They would still be unlimited and by far the most profitable. It’s simply adding a condition for that privilege.

To coin Smooth…Why do players with the highest reward allocation feel so Entitled as to not have the added condition, specially since it would allow them to remain with the highest allocation?

Because they dont get rewards from the game, they get rewards from other players. They also can only achieve gold profits, no other currencies that are rewarded by most other activities in game, so i think they are pretty much in line.

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Posted by: Essence Snow.3194

Essence Snow.3194

Other currencies for?

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Posted by: Zaxares.5419

Zaxares.5419

He means things like Karma, Badges, Fractal Relics, dungeon tokens etc.

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Posted by: Essence Snow.3194

Essence Snow.3194

I know which ones. I was asking what would they need or want them for.

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Posted by: Zaxares.5419

Zaxares.5419

Well, in the case of karma:

- It buys you T3 Cultural weapons, many of which can only be acquired via karma.
- It’s needed to acquire Obsidian. There are other paths for getting Obsidian, but a TP player still isn’t able to get it via trading alone.
- It’s needed to buy certain crafting ingredients and recipes. If a player wants Ascended armor, he’ll need at least a decent amount of it.

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Posted by: Essence Snow.3194

Essence Snow.3194

Gold can bypass 2 of those 3 things as well as bypass the time gates associated. The cultural weapons aren’t needed and some of the skins are purchasable via gold.

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Posted by: Zaxares.5419

Zaxares.5419

I haven’t sat down and actually looked at what’s bypassable and what isn’t, but I’m pretty certain that at the end of the day, you still need to craft your own Vision Crystal to craft Ascended weapons/armor, which means that you can’t escape needing some Obsidian to craft the various Bloodstone/Empyreal/Dragonite mats.

The Cultural weapons aren’t “needed”, no, but then again, that logic could also be applied to anything in the game. You don’t NEED Legendaries. You don’t NEED Ascended gear when Exotics are more than sufficient, unless you’re doing Fractals at 10+ levels. You don’t NEED any kind of fancy aesthetics.

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Posted by: Wanze.8410

Wanze.8410

I know which ones. I was asking what would they need or want them for.

What do you need lots of gold for?

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Posted by: Essence Snow.3194

Essence Snow.3194

The amount needed is rather minimal almost to the point of it being trivial. The same cannot be said for gold when it is the issue.

It’s nice to see someone on the other side of the fence finally admit that the “aren’t needed” argument that get thrown around a lot is frivolous.

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(edited by Essence Snow.3194)

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Posted by: Essence Snow.3194

Essence Snow.3194

I know which ones. I was asking what would they need or want them for.

What do you need lots of gold for?

Most every reward in the game that’s based on rng (which is by far the majority) if you are not on the lucky side of the curve. Judging by current topics….that means quite a bit. As well as allowing one to save copious amount of time which we all know is a limited/very valuable resource.

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Posted by: Wanze.8410

Wanze.8410

I know which ones. I was asking what would they need or want them for.

What do you need lots of gold for?

Most every reward in the game that’s based on rng (which is by far the majority) if you are not on the lucky side of the curve. Judging by current topics….that means quite a bit. As well as allowing one to save copious amount of time which we all know is a limited/very valuable resource.

Okay. I love to play the TP, its my favourite content and I am very good at it.
Now my bank is full of gold and I dont feel as rewarded anymore. Earning 20k gold felt quite nice but after i earned 50k gold, it doesnt feel rewarding anymore at all. I also see all those other players in armor that has better stats than the ones i can buy on the tp and they got nice skins on them. When i asked a player where he got the skin, he told me to talk to the dungeon npcs in LA. I went there but nobody wanted my gold in exchange for those dungeon armor.
Do you seriously want to tell me that i spent 3k+ hours on the tp and i cant even get those skins?
It didnt end there. I saw a warrior with some nice weapon skins, one was an ambrite sword and the other one a fractal sword. I inquired where to get those but neither that bloody robot in the fractal hub nor ANY merchant in drytop would sell me those for my hard earned gold.

I did some more research on those armor pieces with them OP stats because i like to have the best gear just to link it in map chat. It can only be crafted.
Thats fine i thought, i just buy all the mats that i need to level up my armorsmith to level 500, lemonsqueezy.
When i was a level 500 armorsmith, i was gonna start and craft my armor. Those deldrimor ingots and bolts of damask needed some obsidian shards, no idea where to get them, so i bought the ingots and bolts directly from the tp. I wanted to craft the insignias but even though somebody told me that the recipes for those are sold by the master crafter, there was no option to buy them with gold. Is this a bug?
Where is the karma/gold exchange?
Well, doesnt matter anyhow because guess what?
You need some kind of vision crystal anyways to craft that armor but i cant find those crystals or its ingredients on the tp, either. 500g down the drain, thats more gold lost than the time when I bought tons of Tarragon because i was bored.
I start getting very angry but get distracted by this guy beside me who out of a sudden summons this mini kitten and transforms in a random kitten.
I want this kitten and want to be a kitten and after paying this catboy 5 gold for information, he sends me to the Laurel Vendor.
Again, he doesnt want gold. He wants Laurels, and i never seen a single Laurel in game.
Not a single one of the 200k lootbags i bought and opened until now, dropped one.
RNG is so broke in this game.
/wiki Laurels.

Ah ok, its awarded for completing Dailies, Monthlies or for Achievement points.
All those can be completed or are awarded in wvw, pvp, and pve. It seems the TP is neither pvp, wvw or pve because i never got one of those.
Seriously Anet, is this some kind of joke?
Playing the TP feels pretty unrewarding to me, please fix asap or I will leave the game.

Sorry for the vent guys but im really frustrated. I was gonna get a Mini Ellen Kiel to trample on to relieve some of my frustration but i am short on Laurels for that one.

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Posted by: Zaxares.5419

Zaxares.5419

It’s nice to see someone on the other side of the fence finally admit that the “aren’t needed” argument that get thrown around a lot is frivolous.

Actually, I’d say I’m probably closer to being on your side of the fence. My ideal game would be one where a player could earn anything they wanted in the game via a moderate amount of work. “Prestige” is a dirty word in my world; you get an item because you like the way it looks, end of story. There are no account bound items; EVERYTHING is tradable. Scarcity is very shallow; you want a Charged Lodestone? Go kill a Champ Air Elemental. It drops one every time you kill one. Legendaries? You get awarded one for completing the Personal Story; after all, you killed an Elder Dragon! Isn’t that supposed to be a legendary feat?

But at the same time, I realise that a game like this would probably not be very popular. It seems that a large amount of players like to feel superior to others, whether it’s by exclusive skins or titles or having more gold/AP/stats. If they do not have a way to express this, they will either construct a way, or they will leave for another game. And sadly, that won’t be the basis for a commercially popular product.

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Posted by: Essence Snow.3194

Essence Snow.3194

Ofc it’s obviously not an all or nothing prospect. I’m not sure why that is brought up time and time again as it’s a rather feeble point.

Person A~It would be nice if some rewards were more reasonable.
Person B~You just want them free

Person A~ More reasonable does not mean I want them free
Person B~ Yes it does

Person A~ What? How?
Person B~ All you do is whine about how you want them free.

This seems to be the repeated dialog. It’s mind numbing!

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Posted by: Essence Snow.3194

Essence Snow.3194

So it would seem there are not really any credible retorts to the suggestion. That’s always good to know. Thanks

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Posted by: Wanze.8410

Wanze.8410

Maybe the suggestion wasnt credible in the first place.

Tin Foil [HATS]-Hardcore BLTC-PvP Guild
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.

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Posted by: Essence Snow.3194

Essence Snow.3194

Maybe the suggestion wasnt credible in the first place.

Why? Please explain. Please make your comment worth reading.

The whole point behind the suggestions is to create better efficiency in the sink which allows for more reward faucets. This does two things. 1) Increases possibility of rewarding the masses (which is needed). 2) Funnels to traders which acts as compensation for added taxes. So while they might be taxed more there is more for them to “feed” upon.

Serenity now~Insanity later

(edited by Essence Snow.3194)

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Posted by: Dante.1763

Dante.1763

If you dont want your gold that much, ill take it from you! Hehe, i kid~

ive only recently started playing around on the trading post after i got my precursor and i needed tier 6 mats…and while i havent made much money, yet. i have noticed that is way more profitable than farming for hours on end or doing other things. so im of two minds on your suggestion.

1.) do it, if players can make anywhere near as much gold as you can, then yes they should be taxed slightly more. maybe not 30% but more than the current.
2.) dont, because it will get in the way of me making money for my mats xD

The pvp community reminds me of what Obi-kittenenobi describes Mos Eisley as from star wars.

(edited by Dante.1763)

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Posted by: mtpelion.4562

mtpelion.4562

yes they should be taxed slightly more. maybe not 30% but more than the current.

Why?

We’ve got a “progressive” tax here in the US. The goal is not to “punish” the wealthy, but to generate tax revenue in order to pay for social welfare programs.

As there is no need to generate funding for such programs in Tyria, there is no reason to implement a progressive tax either, other than to “punish” players for successful trading.

Server: Devona’s Rest

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Posted by: Dante.1763

Dante.1763

yes they should be taxed slightly more. maybe not 30% but more than the current.

Why?

We’ve got a “progressive” tax here in the US. The goal is not to “punish” the wealthy, but to generate tax revenue in order to pay for social welfare programs.

As there is no need to generate funding for such programs in Tyria, there is no reason to implement a progressive tax either, other than to “punish” players for successful trading.

Did you read my whole post? did you really? See number 2 if you didnt. and read that last line where i said i was of two minds on the idea. im leaning towards number 2 as this is a play how you want game, and really there shouldn’t be any punishment for taking advantage of the black lion trading post, but if they do decide to do go ahead and do something like this then make it less than what the OP suggested.

The pvp community reminds me of what Obi-kittenenobi describes Mos Eisley as from star wars.

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Posted by: Essence Snow.3194

Essence Snow.3194

And why is it a punishment? Isn’kitten punishment to every other method to not be able to obtain the same possible profits by that same logic?

Serenity now~Insanity later

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Posted by: Ensign.2189

Ensign.2189

Funny though, how your goal went from
“Trying to make the TP as a sink more efficient.”
and
“It helps keep markets liquid”
To
Potential Earnings on the TP should be brought more in line with the rest of the reward structures.

Well the first two are very obviously not consistent with the proposals made. I don’t want to immediately pivot from well-intentioned but misinformed to disingenuous.

If you’re really concerned about the impact of wealth disparities on the typical experience you should be lobbying for more robust crafting trees; sufficiently robust crafting eliminates virtually all the potential negative impacts of big piles of wealth.

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Posted by: Ensign.2189

Ensign.2189

We’ve got a “progressive” tax here in the US. The goal is not to “punish” the wealthy, but to generate tax revenue in order to pay for social welfare programs.

Kind of. On the state level it works that way, but not every state has a progressive tax (I live in Washington, which has no state income taxes).

The federal government has a progressive tax, but its purpose is to control inflation, not fund government activities.

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Posted by: Essence Snow.3194

Essence Snow.3194

Funny though, how your goal went from
“Trying to make the TP as a sink more efficient.”
and
“It helps keep markets liquid”
To
Potential Earnings on the TP should be brought more in line with the rest of the reward structures.

Well the first two are very obviously not consistent with the proposals made. I don’t want to immediately pivot from well-intentioned but misinformed to disingenuous.

If you’re really concerned about the impact of wealth disparities on the typical experience you should be lobbying for more robust crafting trees; sufficiently robust crafting eliminates virtually all the potential negative impacts of big piles of wealth.

Can you please elaborate on crafting trees?

Serenity now~Insanity later

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Posted by: Wanze.8410

Wanze.8410

Maybe the suggestion wasnt credible in the first place.

Why? Please explain. Please make your comment worth reading.

The whole point behind the suggestions is to create better efficiency in the sink which allows for more reward faucets. This does two things. 1) Increases possibility of rewarding the masses (which is needed). 2) Funnels to traders which acts as compensation for added taxes. So while they might be taxed more there is more for them to “feed” upon.

Until now, you havent shown that your suggestions only add a progressive tax on traders with a high profit margin because you link the progressive tax to gold value picked up at the trading post over a certain amount of time, which in no way resembles profit.
And even if you manage to find a way to tax the top 10% of traders, i dont think the extra gold sink will be anywhere near enough to compensate for meaningful gold faucets for the remaining 90% of players.

Your suggestion about removing old listings and keeping the listing fee, also highly favours TP savvy people and pushes regular players towards direct sales, which again, is good for tp traders.

Tin Foil [HATS]-Hardcore BLTC-PvP Guild
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.

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Posted by: Wanze.8410

Wanze.8410

Funny though, how your goal went from
“Trying to make the TP as a sink more efficient.”
and
“It helps keep markets liquid”
To
Potential Earnings on the TP should be brought more in line with the rest of the reward structures.

Well the first two are very obviously not consistent with the proposals made. I don’t want to immediately pivot from well-intentioned but misinformed to disingenuous.

If you’re really concerned about the impact of wealth disparities on the typical experience you should be lobbying for more robust crafting trees; sufficiently robust crafting eliminates virtually all the potential negative impacts of big piles of wealth.

I never said that im concerned about wealth disparity because wealth disparity isnt an issue in GW2.
Even if I have 100k gold, Average Joe, who had a hard time farming his first 100g, should be more concerned about the 2000 people that have 500 gold in their wallet because those 2000 people, even though they only have as much gold combined as me, can create a far higher demand for an item or mats than me.
They all might go for an ascended armor set or a precursor but they demand 2000 each of them while I only demand 1 each.

Tin Foil [HATS]-Hardcore BLTC-PvP Guild
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.

Trading Post Progressive Reform

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Posted by: Essence Snow.3194

Essence Snow.3194

Funny though, how your goal went from
“Trying to make the TP as a sink more efficient.”
and
“It helps keep markets liquid”
To
Potential Earnings on the TP should be brought more in line with the rest of the reward structures.

Well the first two are very obviously not consistent with the proposals made. I don’t want to immediately pivot from well-intentioned but misinformed to disingenuous.

If you’re really concerned about the impact of wealth disparities on the typical experience you should be lobbying for more robust crafting trees; sufficiently robust crafting eliminates virtually all the potential negative impacts of big piles of wealth.

I never said that im concerned about wealth disparity because wealth disparity isnt an issue in GW2.
Even if I have 100k gold, Average Joe, who had a hard time farming his first 100g, should be more concerned about the 2000 people that have 500 gold in their wallet because those 2000 people, even though they only have as much gold combined as me, can create a far higher demand for an item or mats than me.
They all might go for an ascended armor set or a precursor but they demand 2000 each of them while I only demand 1 each.

You do realize you just explained what the problem with wealth disparity is right? I’m not sure why you put the constraints on it that you did, but the result is the same more or less.

Serenity now~Insanity later

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Posted by: Wanze.8410

Wanze.8410

Funny though, how your goal went from
“Trying to make the TP as a sink more efficient.”
and
“It helps keep markets liquid”
To
Potential Earnings on the TP should be brought more in line with the rest of the reward structures.

Well the first two are very obviously not consistent with the proposals made. I don’t want to immediately pivot from well-intentioned but misinformed to disingenuous.

If you’re really concerned about the impact of wealth disparities on the typical experience you should be lobbying for more robust crafting trees; sufficiently robust crafting eliminates virtually all the potential negative impacts of big piles of wealth.

I never said that im concerned about wealth disparity because wealth disparity isnt an issue in GW2.
Even if I have 100k gold, Average Joe, who had a hard time farming his first 100g, should be more concerned about the 2000 people that have 500 gold in their wallet because those 2000 people, even though they only have as much gold combined as me, can create a far higher demand for an item or mats than me.
They all might go for an ascended armor set or a precursor but they demand 2000 each of them while I only demand 1 each.

You do realize you just explained what the problem with wealth disparity is right? I’m not sure why you put the constraints on it that you did, but the result is the same more or less.

In my scenario, only Average Joe might have a problem. 2000 players are doing fine and 1 extremely well.
1 out of 2002 being a bit mucked about not having enough gold for the stuff he wants to buy isnt a problem in my eyes, so please enlighten me.

Tin Foil [HATS]-Hardcore BLTC-PvP Guild
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.