Guild Wars 2

I am currently attempting to sell in the trading post. It seems to be taking the listing fee out twice in the projected profit. I am unsure if it is actually charging twice the listing fee, or just displaying it wrong.

example: I am listing it for 10 silver. The listing fee is 50 copper. The projected profit is 9 silver.

There is a deceptive practice going on where they also take a 10% additional tax on all sales on the TP with no obvious statement of such. It is not listed anywhere obvious except on the wiki.

Chimera Tech.8624:

There is a deceptive practice going on where they also take a 10% additional tax on all sales on the TP with no obvious statement of such. It is not listed anywhere obvious except on the wiki.

@ the OP: The trading post takes 15% out of every successful transaction. 5% for listing (which you cannot get back and is taken out of pocket: not out of the sale so you can’t list something if you don’t have the coin up front to list it) and 10% at the point of sale. This is an important gold sink. Read more here:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Trading_post

There is no deception when the trading post tells you your listing fee & your projected profit. I don’t think adding a few lines explaining the math is going to accomplish more than what the projected profit already tells you. If someone isn’t going to bother to check the math then they wouldn’t read the text that explained the math. If you are one of the few that picked up on the 10% tax and are curious about why then they have one of the most well maintained game dedicated wikis I have ever seen:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Main_Page

I encourage you to use it next time you need information -you can usually answer your own question.

Rain King.5914:

@ the OP: The trading post takes 15% out of every successful transaction. 5% for listing (which you cannot get back and is taken out of pocket: not out of the sale so you can’t list something if you don’t have the coin up front to list it) and 10% at the point of sale. This is an important gold sink. Read more here:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Trading_post

There is no deception when the trading post tells you your listing fee & your projected profit. I don’t think adding a few lines explaining the math is going to accomplish more than what the projected profit already tells you. If someone isn’t going to bother to check the math then they wouldn’t read the text that explained the math. If you are one of the few that picked up on the 10% tax and are curious about why then they have one of the most well maintained game dedicated wikis I have ever seen:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Main_Page

I encourage you to use it next time you need information -you can usually answer your own question.

Deceptive – tending or having power to deceive : misleading
Deceive – to practice deceit; also : to give a false impression

Not listing all fees and charges associated with a sale is commonly referred to by the FTC as a Deceptive Practice, I would go further to quote Washington State and King County (ANet is in King County) Law for its legal definition but it is besides the point. It is something not being listed and made aware to the consumer using a service.

Before this topic spirals out of line with too much debate the fact is and stands they list the posting fee and then take an additional tax/fee with no notice. Which is in many states, including Washington, illegal. That includes if the consumer is unaware, the mere practice is fraudulent in nature.

Chimera Tech.8624:

Rain King.5914:

@ the OP: The trading post takes 15% out of every successful transaction. 5% for listing (which you cannot get back and is taken out of pocket: not out of the sale so you can’t list something if you don’t have the coin up front to list it) and 10% at the point of sale. This is an important gold sink. Read more here:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Trading_post

There is no deception when the trading post tells you your listing fee & your projected profit. I don’t think adding a few lines explaining the math is going to accomplish more than what the projected profit already tells you. If someone isn’t going to bother to check the math then they wouldn’t read the text that explained the math. If you are one of the few that picked up on the 10% tax and are curious about why then they have one of the most well maintained game dedicated wikis I have ever seen:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Main_Page

I encourage you to use it next time you need information -you can usually answer your own question.

Deceptive – tending or having power to deceive : misleading
Deceive – to practice deceit; also : to give a false impression

Not listing all fees and charges associated with a sale is commonly referred to by the FTC as a Deceptive Practice, I would go further to quote Washington State and King County (ANet is in King County) Law for its legal definition but it is besides the point. It is something not being listed and made aware to the consumer using a service.

Before this topic spirals out of line with too much debate the fact is and stands they list the posting fee and then take an additional tax/fee with no notice. Which is in many states, including Washington, illegal. That includes if the consumer is unaware, the mere practice is fraudulent in nature.

I don’t know where to start…

You can’t possibly be serious?

Chimera, do you know what taxation is? Did you know that when you bought this game, you didn’t pay just $59.99?

The trading post has two fees:
– 5% listing fee. Paid on listing.
– 10% sales tax. If it sells

The projected profit is the amount you have listed the item for, minus the sales tax. The listing fee is not included in that calculation.

Vol.5241:

Chimera, do you know what taxation is? Did you know that when you bought this game, you didn’t pay just $59.99?

Washington State, where ANet is from, has regulations about taxes and making customers adequately aware of all “taxes whether local, state, or federal along with the implied fees of such a transaction.” Your comment shows your knowledge of business definitions is lacking, flawed, slighted, and skewed by your assumption about a separation of taxes and fees.

I really do not want to let this get too far off topic so I will reiterate the point again.

There is no specification of what is going on, criteria for deceptive business practices are met under definition because of non disclosure.
The general populace is unaware which does not excuse the abuse nor does it alleviate the responsibility to proper itemization and notification. If anything it is historically shown that deceptive practices are generally missed by the masses as they ARE DECEPTIVE!

I’m actually with Chimera on this. Although I think deceptive is a little strong, there should be a much clearer indication of the 15% taken off (I’d have had no idea if it weren’t for coming on these forums).

This is made worse by the fact that gold does have an effective real-world cash value, and in some cases we are literally talking about hundreds of dollars being taken in taxation. Obviously this is lessened by the fact that there is no legitimate way to convert gold to dollars, so I don’t think it is a legal issue, but it is (I think unintentionally) misleading.

Are you people serious?

Grab a calculator. It’s simple math. If you can’t do simple math and SEE in an instant that the “Projected Profit” is 90% of the value you would get by multiplying the number of items you’re listing by the price you’re listing them at…..you shouldn’t be using the Trading Post.

It’s not deceptive. It’s not illegal. ALL of the information is listed RIGHT THERE on one screen….and it’s all right next to each other.

ArenaNet doesn’t need to tell us the percentages that they’re using, those are EASILY figured out with a calculator.

Also…..you realize this isn’t real money…..right? It’s virtual currency. For those that will make the argument that there is a conversion for in-game gold to real currency…..please don’t. You’re just going to look silly.

I am baffled by the comparison of BLT to real life taxes and what is legal/illegal.
You know this is a game, right?

Well, i remember after the official start there was no note in the TP about any taxes or fees the trader will pay, except the listing fee. I have flipped many items, actually loosing money, before i realize it. The “Projected Profit” field has been added later and i still find it little bit confusing – shouldn’t such a “projected profit” be a “clean profit”? I mean, when i sell something for 100 gold i expect to get 90 gold as the “projected profit” field states. Where does the TP mention that the 5% listing fee is not included ?
So yes, despite the fact i’m aware of the BLTC taxes and i agree with it, i’m finding the notes in the interface MISLEADING for new players.

One Prarie Outpost.4860:

I am baffled by the comparison of BLT to real life taxes and what is legal/illegal.
You know this is a game, right?

Apparently that dude thinks it’s possible to pursue legal matters over an ingame economy.

People like him are exactly what’s wrong with MMO communities.

To those saying “its just a game”, and “its just in game currency”, you do realise that money is technically “just pieces of paper”?

Because of the gem to gold conversion, gold has a real world cash value. People buy literally hundreds of dollars worth of gold, and that is then taken by ANet. The lack of a gold to gem to cash ability makes this significantly different to other situations, but to simply dismiss the value of something because it only exists virtually is fairly outdated thinking.

Charismatic Harm.9683:

It’s not deceptive. It’s not illegal. ALL of the information is listed RIGHT THERE on one screen….and it’s all right next to each other.

There is one crucial piece of information missing: That the projected profit doesn’t include all expenses. It leaves out the listing fee.
Profit is generally defined as income minus expenses. The listing fee is an expense. Therefore leaving it off makes the profit incorrect.

If someone new to GW2 ran the math, they would see that the projected profit takes 10% off the sale price. They would see the 5% listing fee. A reasonable assumption to them is that the listing fee is included and that there is another 5% fee somewhere for a total of 10%. Then they sell some items and find that the total is actually 15%.

That is how the trading post is misleading.

CrakittenestAuto.9108:

To those saying “its just a game”, and “its just in game currency”, you do realise that money is technically “just pieces of paper”?

Because of the gem to gold conversion, gold has a real world cash value. People buy literally hundreds of dollars worth of gold, and that is then taken by ANet. The lack of a gold to gem to cash ability makes this significantly different to other situations, but to simply dismiss the value of something because it only exists virtually is fairly outdated thinking.

The section of your post that I highlighted in bold is the reason your logic is flawed.

There is only one thing in the cash shop that you can buy with real money: Gems

Those Gems can then be traded in for other things….including in-game gold, but in doing so, you must use the system put in place by the creators of the cash shop. That system includes a conversion rate that is fluid and constantly moving based on the number of Gems converted to gold and vice versa.

People don’t “buy literally hundreds of dollars worth of gold”. They buy hundreds of dollars worth of Gems, which they then CHOOSE to convert to gold using the conversion rate AT THE TIME they choose to make that conversion.

You CAN simply dismiss the dollar value of in-game gold because no conversion to turn in-game gold to dollars exists.

There is not now, nor I doubt there ever will be, a direct conversion of in-game gold to dollars because of the fluctuating gold to Gem conversion rate.

The difference you’re missing is the fact that one conversion rate is static, while the other is dynamic.

STATIC: Dollars to Gems
DYNAMIC: Gems to gold / gold to Gems

Real money always buys the same number of Gems (unless ArenaNet has a sale). Gems do NOT always buy the same amount of gold. Gold does NOT always buy the same amount of Gems.

I’ll say it one last time as simply as I can…..

Gold does NOT have a real world cash value because there is NO WAY to turn gold into real world money (without violating the terms and conditions set forth in the EULA). It has a perceived cash value which is in a state of continual fluctuation.

Snoring Sleepwalker.9073:

Charismatic Harm.9683:

It’s not deceptive. It’s not illegal. ALL of the information is listed RIGHT THERE on one screen….and it’s all right next to each other.

There is one crucial piece of information missing: That the projected profit doesn’t include all expenses. It leaves out the listing fee.
Profit is generally defined as income minus expenses. The listing fee is an expense. Therefore leaving it off makes the profit incorrect.

If someone new to GW2 ran the math, they would see that the projected profit takes 10% off the sale price. They would see the 5% listing fee. A reasonable assumption to them is that the listing fee is included and that there is another 5% fee somewhere for a total of 10%. Then they sell some items and find that the total is actually 15%.

That is how the trading post is misleading.

Listing an item in the Trading Post can be easily compared to listing an item on eBay. When you list an item on eBay, they tell you up front how much it’s going to cost you to list that item and you have to pay it before they accept your listing….it gets paid by your credit card or PayPal account. If there’s not enough money in your account, they won’t let you list the item.

When you list an item on the Trading Post, the same thing happens. They tell you the listing fee and that money is taken out of your inventory before you can list the item. If you don’t have enough money in your inventory, it won’t let you list the item.

A similar situation occurs with the “Projected Profit”…..but eBay handles this differently because it’s an auction and not a fixed price. eBay can’t tell you up front how much you’re going to make after your sale because they can’t tell you how much it’s going to sell for. eBay tells you the percentage they’re going to take so that YOU can calculate how much you’ll make at the end.

ArenaNet has taken that calculation out of your hands and is kind enough to show you your “Projected Profit”. The reason they can do that is because they KNOW how much it’s going to sell for (if it sells)…..because that’s how much you’re listing it for.

It’s two completely separate transactions. Neither are misleading. They just take a bit of simple math to figure out if you want to know what “their cut” is. If you feel their cut is too high, too bad. The Trading Post is the only secure method to sell an item to another player.

I included the bolded section to specifically highlight that I knew this was a special case, however I think you are oversimplifying. Because gold can be bought with real world money, it does have a cash value.

If someone spends hundreds of pounds on gems to convert to gold, and Arena Net then take some of that gold away without telling them, then that is pretty off. I’m not saying Arena Net shouldn’t take the 15% (they should), but I see no reason at all to think that they shouldn’t be upfront about it just because we’re talking about a virtual service.

CrakittenestAuto.9108:

I included the bolded section to specifically highlight that I knew this was a special case, however I think you are oversimplifying. Because gold can be bought with real world money, it does have a cash value.

If someone spends hundreds of pounds on gems to convert to gold, and Arena Net then take some of that gold away without telling them, then that is pretty off. I’m not saying Arena Net shouldn’t take the 15% (they should), but I see no reason at all to think that they shouldn’t be upfront about it just because we’re talking about a virtual service.

You still don’t understand.

Gold can NOT be bought directly with real money

Gems can be bought with real money. Gold can be bought with Gems at a conversion rate specific to the moment you convert your Gems into gold. That conversion rate changes constantly. Since there is no way to convert Gems to real money, gold has NO real money equivalent….it only has a perceived equivalent using the conversion rate at the specific moment you make the calculation. Therefore, the perceived equivalent of gold’s value in real money is constantly changing.

ArenaNet does NOT take a 15% of your real money when you convert Gems to gold. There are two DIFFERENT conversion rates depending on which direction you’re converting your Gems/gold. Those two rates are separated by a percentage.

If you look at the history graph for the conversion rates on GW2Spidy (http://www.gw2spidy.com/gem), you’ll notice that the lines get further apart as the values go up.

My guess to the reason behind having that hard percentage is to eliminate the immediate “flipping” of Gems to gold to Gems to keep that specific market being manipulated on a short timeline. I don’t work for ArenaNet, so I don’t know their reasoning behind a hard percentage difference between the two conversion rates.

For the people unaware NCSoft and other companies (including blizzard with the Diablo 3 BS) have been sued for things like this before and lost.

You have a promoted product that has reasonable expectations. These reasonable expectations have a required amount of “truth” before you can say a business has avoided deceptive practices.

Several courts have ruled across the country that if you can directly trade Monetary value to ingame credit to another form of ingame credit then the credits are still ruled by the business law. If you bother to read the the TOS they are explicitly required to include that little part about, “these terms may not apply to you based on your local law”… For example: Washington State does not allow them to waive your warranty without directly negotiating what you are waiving

ANet should just fix it before they end up having another issue like their parent company has had… I’ve sent in tickets on the matter others should as well.

The point being and the main topic is and shall be why there was a loss of profits. This is being seen more and more as people get to the higher brackets of items they are selling.

I didn’t notice it until I went to sell one of my first double digit gold sells. I didn’t think I should expect a tax not listed for all my other sales and when selling anything under 10c to the BLTP you could reasonable mistake a correlation that the listing fee and your projected profit were one in the same… Then after that the reasonable correlation grew because there was no other indicators you were being taxed… Why do you think when you go to the grocery store or pay for something that has a tax it has to be listed seperately? :P

PS EDIT: I’m starting to think Harm is mad because I’m From Devona’s rest and my Guild and server smashed his server. Been seeing alot of HoD hate on my posts…

Chimera Tech.8624:

Deceptive – tending or having power to deceive : misleading
Deceive – to practice deceit; also : to give a false impression

Not listing all fees and charges associated with a sale is commonly referred to by the FTC as a Deceptive Practice, I would go further to quote Washington State and King County (ANet is in King County) Law for its legal definition but it is besides the point. It is something not being listed and made aware to the consumer using a service.

Arguments about real-life taxation aside (they simply don’t apply here, because the law specifically regulates United States Dollars, not fictional forms of non-legal tender), this is clearly deceptive. Look, for example, at the automatic protection that kicks in when a buy order is less than the vendor value of an item.

The Trading Post won’t accept buy orders less than the vendor value of an item, allegedly as a form of protection for players. However, the trading post will accept a buy order at or a few copper above the vendor value of an item, resulting in a projected profit substantially below (up to 10%, of course) vendor value.

Many players I’ve spoken to aren’t aware of this, and sell many of their gear drops on the trading post. They assumed that they were making equivalent or better profit than they would be selling it to vendors, because of the buy order protection system. And this isn’t an issue that comes into play under extreme circumstances in a handful of markets – the vast majority of gear below level 75 has TP values at or pennies above vendor value. Over the 1-80 lifetime of a character, that adds up to very substantial losses.

TL;DR: The automatic buy order vs. vendor value protection system pretends that the 10% tax doesn’t exist, deceiving players and resulting in significant losses.

Blueshield.6291:

Arguments about real-life taxation aside (they simply don’t apply here, because the law specifically regulates United States Dollars, not fictional forms of non-legal tender),

“this is clearly deceptive.”

See my above post… You would be wrong and misinformed as most of the country is about how those laws work. Most people don’t know things like business law because they don’t have to. Pretty funny thing about law, you usually have 0 understanding about a topic unless it affects you.

Thank you for being able to recognize it as a deceptive tactic and business practice.

CrakittenestAuto.9108:

I included the bolded section to specifically highlight that I knew this was a special case, however I think you are oversimplifying. Because gold can be bought with real world money, it does have a cash value.

If someone spends hundreds of pounds on gems to convert to gold, and Arena Net then take some of that gold away without telling them, then that is pretty off. I’m not saying Arena Net shouldn’t take the 15% (they should), but I see no reason at all to think that they shouldn’t be upfront about it just because we’re talking about a virtual service.

Anet doesn’t care what you do after you convert your gems to gold. You’re free to do whatever the hell you want. If you want to use that gold to sell stuff on the TP, and you’re too clueless enough to not know the fees involved, then that’s the seller’s problem.

Are we going to post gambling laws here when we talk about spending that same gold on the mystic forge?

Vol.5241:

Are we going to post gambling laws here when we talk about spending that same gold on the mystic forge?

Those as required by law are disclosed and voided properly in the ToS. So technically it would be a null issue as it is properly resolved in the ToS.

Also it is part of the ESRB Rating… Gambling violence etc :P

Chimera Tech.8624:

PS EDIT: I’m starting to think Harm is mad because I’m From Devona’s rest and my Guild and server smashed his server. Been seeing alot of HoD hate on my posts…

LOL!!!!!!!! I’m not mad because of WvW. I’m not mad at all actually. I just wish some people would understand that what they’re saying isn’t correct. I’ve made mistakes in the past too, but when I do, I’ll own up to them. Repeating the same misinformation over and over again does not make someone right.

I don’t do anything in WvW and didn’t even realize that our servers were competing. Maybe someday I’ll play that a little. PvP in any form really isn’t my thing.

Chimera…..thanks for the chuckle. :-)

Chimera Tech.8624:

See my above post… You would be wrong and misinformed as most of the country is about how those laws work. Most people don’t know things like business law because they don’t have to. Pretty funny thing about law, you usually have 0 understanding about a topic unless it affects you.

Thank you for being able to recognize it as a deceptive tactic and business practice.

I’ve read the entire thread, and I see that you keep claiming that all US law applies to all virtual currency. I did some research on FindLaw before posting, and I couldn’t find any court cases verifying that. If you provide some citations backing up that assertion, I’ll grant that it’s a valid argument and that, on those grounds, ANet had better fix this pronto.

It’s a very important point that while you can buy gems with USD and convert them into gold, you cannot then convert the gold back into USD through any means. Gold is not therefore a currency that can be translated back and forth from USD. When you buy gems, you are paying ANet for a virtual service, not performing a currency exchange.

Until you can provide citations specific and relevant to this situation, I’m still taking the stance that it’s deceptive and dishonest, but not strictly illegal.

Blueshield.6291:

Until you can provide citations specific and relevant to this situation, I’m still taking the stance that it’s deceptive and dishonest, but not strictly illegal.

I would be glad to oblige if there was not a general fear of negative consequences for CITING, such things. Discussing the logic, theory, correlation, and ideals are explicitly allowed however…

“Do not post legal action threads. Using the forums or PMs to encourage, promote, endorse, or incite any kind of legal action against the company or any individual is strictly prohibited. Such content will be removed, and the author’s posting privileges will be permanently revoked.”

Since my knowledge is experience based and I have not disclosed any specific citations I can discuss the matter but not promote, endorse, assist in any way shape or form any action against anet. I do not now nor have promoted action against Anet I just simply debate the logistics of the issue and continue to “feel” that there are some problems that are associated with things that need to be fix to come into compliance with customer expectations.

(There was a group banned for this, and they were given exactly what they did to “deserve” being banned. I’d prefer to avoid this fate myself)

Chimera Tech.8624:

Since my knowledge is experience based and I have not disclosed any specific citations I can discuss the matter but not promote, endorse, assist in any way shape or form any action against anet. I do not now nor have promoted action against Anet I just simply debate the logistics of the issue and continue to “feel” that there are some problems that are associated with things that need to be fix to come into compliance with customer expectations.

Fair enough. Given that, I have to maintain my stance that taxation and transaction laws don’t apply here, because it’s a virtual system with a one-way currency exchange. There’s no way within the TOS to get money back out of Guild Wars 2; therefore purchasing gems is purchasing a service.

That doesn’t change the fact that the Trading Post’s taxation method is highly deceptive, for reasons indicated above (most particularly the vendor value protection system, IMO). The system needs to be changed because it’s grossly misleading. No other reasons are necessary.

Blueshield.6291:

Fair enough. Given that, I have to maintain my stance that taxation and transaction laws don’t apply here, because it’s a virtual system with a one-way currency exchange. There’s no way within the TOS to get money back out of Guild Wars 2; therefore purchasing gems is purchasing a service.

That doesn’t change the fact that the Trading Post’s taxation method is highly deceptive, for reasons indicated above (most particularly the vendor value protection system, IMO). The system needs to be changed because it’s grossly misleading. No other reasons are necessary.

Some food for thought about services and how it is and will always be a service. There are reasonable expectations of how a service will occur and what is related to said service.

Ultimately for purposes of this thread the focus is and will be the change needed on the BLTP fees and taxes listing procedure that is grossly misleading, and in my experience with the word, “deceptive.”

I only read the first few posts but I have to say one small thing:

As a cashier in a retail store in the same state and county as ArenaNet, I do NOT inform my customers that there is a 9.5% sales tax added on to all of their purchases, except some food, at my store. I simply tell them the total of their sale.

To this day, I sometimes have people who are oblivious that there is 9.5% sales tax, and wonder why they are paying more than the item is listed for, and after a few seconds they remember that there’s tax.

It’s not my responsibility to tell each and every customer exactly how much their subtotal, their tax, and their total with tax is, every time. 9.5% is close enough to 10% that people should know how to do some basic math when they are buying things.

It’s kind of the same with the trading post. Now, let me say, yes it would be nice if they made it clearer. When you list an item it would be nice if it said something like “Non-refundable listing fee: 90c. Sales tax: 1s80c. Projected profit: blahblah”
That would be a great feature and they should add it in, but it isn’t necessary and certainly not deceptive. If you think the trading post is deceptive, I challenge you to go to every store you shop at, buy something, and then chew out the cashier and manager and file a formal complain when the cashier didn’t tell you exactly how much your tax was on your purchase. Do it. Stop being a hypocrite.

Ravien.4823:

I only read the first few posts but I have to say one small thing:

As a cashier in a retail store in the same state and county as ArenaNet, I do NOT inform my customers that there is a 9.5% sales tax added on to all of their purchases, except some food, at my store. I simply tell them the total of their sale.

To this day, I sometimes have people who are oblivious that there is 9.5% sales tax, and wonder why they are paying more than the item is listed for, and after a few seconds they remember that there’s tax.

It’s not my responsibility to tell each and every customer exactly how much their subtotal, their tax, and their total with tax is, every time. 9.5% is close enough to 10% that people should know how to do some basic math when they are buying things.

It’s kind of the same with the trading post. Now, let me say, yes it would be nice if they made it clearer. When you list an item it would be nice if it said something like “Non-refundable listing fee: 90c. Sales tax: 1s80c. Projected profit: blahblah”
That would be a great feature and they should add it in, but it isn’t necessary and certainly not deceptive. If you think the trading post is deceptive, I challenge you to go to every store you shop at, buy something, and then chew out the cashier and manager and file a formal complain when the cashier didn’t tell you exactly how much your tax was on your purchase. Do it. Stop being a hypocrite.

Good analogy, but this guy goes even farther. He thinks it’s deceptive and against the law!

So it’s like chewing out that cashier and then threatening to sue for misrepresenting prices.

Yeah, he should probably either attend real law school, or go back to law school. If guild wars gold was a real currency anet wouldnt be in violation of deceptive practice laws in this case. Not by a long shot.

Its not misleading, it tells you exactly how much you will get after the transaction. There is no deception.

Charismatic Harm.9683:

It’s two completely separate transactions. Neither are misleading. They just take a bit of simple math to figure out if you want to know what “their cut” is.

If it is not misleading, tell me how someone new to GW2 can find out that the total fee is 15% before making their first trade without asking another player or referring to out of game documentation.

When they see profit, they think income minus expenses, because that is the definition of profit*. They see the listing fee, an obvious expense, so assume it’s included in projected profit. The TP is misleading because it hides the fact that the simple math is needed.

*If you’re using something else for the TP, please tell us what it is and why you think it’s correct.

If you feel their cut is too high, too bad. The Trading Post is the only secure method to sell an item to another player.

Why do you even bring these points up ?
Why do you think I’m complaining about the tax being too high ?

Blueshield.6291:

TL;DR: The automatic buy order vs. vendor value protection system pretends that the 10% tax doesn’t exist, deceiving players and resulting in significant losses.

Yes, that is another misleading mechanic of the trading post.

Ravien.4823:

I only read the first few posts but I have to say one small thing:

As a cashier in a retail store in the same state and county as ArenaNet, I do NOT inform my customers that there is a 9.5% sales tax added on to all of their purchases, except some food, at my store. I simply tell them the total of their sale.

<snip>

It’s kind of the same with the trading post.

No it isn’t. When you tell your customers a price, you tell them the final price so they don’t have to do any further math, unless they care about the details.

The trading post doesn’t. When you list a sell order, to get your net income, you have to do further math. Even worse, the way the TP is set up, it implies that it includes the listing fee in projected profit and thus it implies that further math isn’t required.

Draygo.9473:

Its not misleading, it tells you exactly how much you will get after the transaction. There is no deception.

What definition of profit are you using that allows you to ignore a significant expense and still call the number you produced ‘profit’ ?

Hi everyone,

As this thread has derailed into a personal war we are closing it. Please refrain from this behaviour in the future and help us build a better forums

Thanks for your understanding