(edited by jazzllanna.1278)
Trading post outbid text alert programs
What the text message program can accomplish can also be accomplished by having TP up ingame and just hitting refresh over and over again. Or if you’re not in game, you can just refresh on gw2spidy ( which updates once every 15 mins or so). Everything that program does can be accomplished without it.
You are complaining that the flipper will bid over your price by 1 copper. You can just as easily outbid him. Putting in a buy offer that is significantly higher is also called offering a fair price. If you want it at a lower price, then keep overcutting him by 1 copper until either you stop or he stops. It’s called supply and demand. If you are willing to offer more than the other guy, then prove it. If the other guy is willing to offer more, then he should get it.
But you can’t outbid him until his profit is gone and they are alerted instantly placing a new bid within under a minute and they can do this all day and all hours because of a text message. You have no chance at all.
You have no chance at what?
If you want the item now, buy a sell listing.
If you want the item at a specific price, put in a buy order and forget about it until someone fills it.
Server: Devona’s Rest
That is the point no one will ever be able to fill it because it will be outbid within a min and once that higher buy order is filled a new one will be placed- that again will be impossible to outbid unless the profit margin is gone. If you want to stay logged in and refresh to bid fine go ahead, but text messaging allows people that are not even playing the game to jump in and outbid you instantly. It does not even give you any chance at being the top bid.
If your buy order is never filled it is only because you’ve placed your offer too low.
Any reasonable buy order is going to get filled eventually, you just have to wait for the buy orders in front of you to be filled first. Place a bid you are comfortable with and forget about it.
Server: Devona’s Rest
You do not understand what I am saying. A person with a text message alert system never allows anyone to outbid them- unless they bid high enough that the item cannot be flipped. They place a new order once their order is filled so they can flip the items again and again. They have a text message anytime they are outbid and log right in and outbid you. So you really cannot just leave your bid there because it will never reach it.
If they had to be logged into the game to see the new bids for themselves then that would give others at least more than 1 min as the top bid, but with the text message they do not have any down time as top bid.
I understand. What you don’t understand is that they are buying a finite number of units. Rather than engaging in a price war, you simply need to wait for that finite number of units to be filled at which point YOUR bid is now the high one.
Buy orders are about patience.
Server: Devona’s Rest
You do not understand what I am saying. A person with a text message alert system never allows anyone to outbid them- unless they bid high enough that the item cannot be flipped. They place a new order once their order is filled so they can flip the items again and again. They have a text message anytime they are outbid and log right in and outbid you. So you really cannot just leave your bid there because it will never reach it.
If they had to be logged into the game to see the new bids for themselves then that would give others at least more than 1 min as the top bid, but with the text message they do not have any down time as top bid.
so they have to launch the game, log in, go to the TP, open the TP, go to their transactions, Go to the “Item’s I’m buying Tab”, remove their items, collect their money, search for that item again on the TP, and relist a buy order.
They manage to do all that instantly while competing with thousands and thousands of other players to prevent anyone from getting their buy orders filled?
Sounds like you just placed your buy order to low…
I just find it odd that there is a program allowed to notify people not even in game at all hours of the day that their bids have been outbid. It hurts people the most on rare and expensive items that are being used for flipping. If that is how the trading post is suppose to work then I guess good job. Letting someone get a text at 3 am to make sure they are top bid on an item so they can flip it is a bit extreme imo.
It’s no different than a guy who has a vested interest in having the high buy order sitting there and babysitting his orders.
It’s also no different than a guy who just so happened to log in and place a buy order that is higher than yours.
The fact is, as long as your buy order is reasonable, it will be filled. It won’t be first, but it will happen. Trying to beat out a flipper for highest buy order is a waste of your time. Place your offer and leave. You’ll get your item eventually.
If you can’t wait for your item, then you simply need to buy a sell listing.
Server: Devona’s Rest
What the text message program can accomplish can also be accomplished by having TP up ingame and just hitting refresh over and over again.
This is false and misses the point – and you know it. The “refresher guy”, who has buy orders on 30 different items, can’t compete with a guy that gets notified on his buy orders on 30 different items automatically.
What the text message program can accomplish can also be accomplished by having TP up ingame and just hitting refresh over and over again.
This is false and misses the point – and you know it. The “refresher guy”, who has buy orders on 30 different items, can’t compete with a guy that gets notified on his buy orders on 30 different items automatically.
My response was under the impression that it was only one or two items that you were flipping. If you were flipping 30 items, which in my opinion is a waste of time as you could make just as much if not more flipping one or two better items, then you would need to spend time to list each of those individually cancel + relist and such regardless of whether you use a notifier or not. You also have to be on the computer regardless of whether you use a notifier or not. There is just not a significant enough advantage for a notifier for it to be considered illegal ( in my opinion).
Whether or not it is illegal is not a matter of opinion. It’s defined in the contract you sign before entering the game. But I’ve made this point before without results, so I won’t repeat the four or so clauses which are violated the moment you start using a notifier.
Whether or not it is illegal is not a matter of opinion. It’s defined in the contract you sign before entering the game. But I’ve made this point before without results, so I won’t repeat the four or so clauses which are violated the moment you start using a notifier.
Interpretation is a matter of opinion.
Are you sure that it is the texting program. Are you sure it was a program or someone using a program to outbid you. Remember the Trading post is global. it is possible with a few million players that you will be outbid fast.
In Game: Storm Bluff Isle — Anzz, Anzenketh Kyoto
The only item that I saw weird behavior on was the flame and frost dyes about 3 weeks ago. I posted this under the thread suggesting there are bots in the tp. There was another thread about a precursor and what they observed with the bid offers. I am thinking that it is not bots but in fact flippers that are using the program to ensure they are the only bid that will be filled if a product is flippable. I don’t think that getting a text message and being able to update your bid is good for the game over all. If you want to flip items that is fine, but to be able to not have any competition from other players on bids is controlling the market in a way imo.
For example, lets say there is an item that is rare and sells on a buy out price for 50 gold and the highest bid price is 30 gold. Someone who wants the item may try to put in a buy price to save some gold because that is a significant difference. 1 min later they are outbid. It is very easy to think that ok someone else wants this too. They can then put in another bid and bam in under 1 min they are outbid again. They can try to put in a bid at any time during the day —24 hours a day!- and the person with text message can instantly outbid them with no effort.
The bid is too low you may think- ok well the person who wants the item can get their bid up to 45 gold and it is still cheaper but it will not be over cut because the person overbidding them is a flipper and they want the cheaper item to relist it at 50 for profit. So the person that wanted the item to use paid 15-20 gold more than really necessary because of another person wanting to flip the item and not letting any other bids be above theirs for more than 1 min. Who do you think has items up for sale at the buy now prices? My guess is the person that is outbidding every bid with a text message that makes impossible to beat them.
If you want to flip you should have to spend the time to check your bids.. not get a text message imo. It allows them to respond entirely too quickly to any competition whether it is a person wanting the item or another person trying to flip an item.
Whether or not it is illegal is not a matter of opinion. It’s defined in the contract you sign before entering the game. But I’ve made this point before without results, so I won’t repeat the four or so clauses which are violated the moment you start using a notifier.
If it’s only alerting him, not placing the orders for him, then it’s probably legal. The stance on 3rd party programs has traditionally been that they’re not disallowed unless they actually giving a straight up in game advantage over others or do things for you. However, if this is only alerting him, he’s not getting a technical advantage, he still has to do the same in game stuff the same way everyone else is at a similar human speed. Not to mention the lost time logging in if they’re not already online.
Let’s say that they do have an advantage because they get a text message. What’s stopping you from using it too and eliminating the advantage?
Let’s say the rules ban the use of it (based on my understanding they don’t since it is simply an API notification bounced to your phone), how can it even be proved?
The fact is, all the use of such a program does is speed up the rate at which a product reaches its actual price (the buy and sell orders represent the margins of the price spectrum of the product). Even without using a program, the person trying to flip the items (or simply acquire them for personal use) is still going to outbid you, you’re just trying to find a way to slow down the outbidding in order to speed up your buy order.
Buy orders are not designed to be the fast way to get a product, they are designed to be the cheap way. Just set your order where you are comfortable and wait for it to be filled. If you absolutely must have that item NOW, then don’t use a buy order. There are plenty of them listed for sale right NOW that you can buy.
Server: Devona’s Rest
Wouldn’t a notifier be disallowed simply under the macro clause? It basically does what a human player does in multiple clicks w/o the clicks……ie since a multi-clicker is not allowed why would a bid notifier?
1 click one action……..1 click one refresh….1 click one item…etc. A notifier would basically serve as a smart macro yes?
Serenity now~Insanity later
I don’t see how the price would ever come down on a rare item. If a person never lets another buyer win on a bid and the item is rare enough that there is not a steady flow on the tp then the only person that is truly buying and selling the items is the one that can increase their bid in a minutes notice (without even being in game! Text message alert) of an overbid to keep others out or force them to buy from them. That is going to keep the prices high imo because they have little competition to undercut them on buy now orders and no competition on the buy orders placed. They have essentially locked down the price. Granted there are not a ton of items that this can happen with.. but the ones it can happen with- It is happening.
In a very loose definition, macro is a repetition of in in game events/keys, this is a reduction of said items and would def. not go under the normal def. of a Macro.
The alert in itself is also not against TOS since its not YOU who use 3d party components to do this but instead react to a third party tool (Which MIGHT be against the TOS).
Depending on the alert mechanics you enter another grey area, its unlikely that the service tracks your specific order (would require detailed account/listing information which no sane person would share) but instead the sell/buy price in general and the alert they get is a notification that the alert limits set by the user has been reached.
As such the alert they get is a general alert that an item has reached a specific limit set by the user. The only way to disallow such mechanics is to hide the API from external applications which means any online TP tracking service has to shut down and the question is wether this is something we really want????
I don’t see how the price would ever come down on a rare item. If a person never lets another buyer win on a bid and the item is rare enough that there is not a steady flow on the tp then the only person that is truly buying and selling the items is the one that can increase their bid in a minutes notice (without even being in game! Text message alert) of an overbid to keep others out or force them to buy from them. That is going to keep the prices high imo because they have little competition to undercut them on buy now orders and no competition on the buy orders placed. They have essentially locked down the price. Granted there are not a ton of items that this can happen with.. but the ones it can happen with- It is happening.
Well the thing is…
The flipper/s has identified a profit margin and are willing to pay X and still get a good margin on the item, you are then complaining tht you can buy it cheaper and thus not get your profit from it. Too me it seems you are complaining that someone is interfering with your TP plans which it just silly…
If you are not flipping the item and actually wants it for personal use then put in a fair price, just because you want it for the cheapest amount doesnt mean that you can complain about having to put down a proper price for the item.
edit: Also this is an ALERT the user still has to login to the game and update his price, also the user has to spend the extra time to set up/update the alert mechanism for the price adjustments.
I see the alerts as a way too work around the stupid interface ANet has implemented where you cant even see the orders properly…
(edited by aeneq.1760)
Why shouldn’t anyone be allowed to outbid anyone else? It is their gold after all. Even if I do not have any program to alert me to outbid attempts, I can still check every few seconds manually. Yes I know that is a terrible grind but if hundreds of gold is involved for a precursor, many people would be willing to do that.
Outbidding is part of the TP, so I don’t understand why people have to come to this forum to vent claiming it is because their competitors cheated with unproven scripts and bots, so as to give themselves a ‘pat on the back’ as to why they lost the bid. The guy who won the bid might be thinking that you ARE the bot, but he still won the bid because he was persistent enough.
(edited by DarkSpirit.7046)
I will leave it at that. I am not looking to flip anything or am I in a bidding war on any item right now. I am bringing this up because I don’t see how a program that is sending texts based on auction prices is allowed. There may be bots or it could be this texting but more and more people are seeing odd behavior in the tp.
I just don’t think you should be able to use an outside source to monitor the game without actually being logged in and playing. I don’t think that is a far fetched idea.
(edited by jazzllanna.1278)
Understood, but you realize that sites such as gw2spidy is covered by this as well.
I will leave it at that. I am not looking to flip anything or am I in a bidding war on any item right now. I am bringing this up because I don’t see how a program that is sending texts based on auction prices is allowed. There may be bots or it could be this texting but more and more people are seeing odd behavior in the tp.
I just don’t think you should be able to use an outside source to monitor the game without actually being logged in and playing. I don’t think that is a far fetched idea.
Maybe you do not realize it, but there are already free programs to do that. For example, this one: http://notifier.zicore.de/
Since the programs are free anyway, I see a level playing field. I would rather be playing the game and let the program monitor for any outbid attempts. My competitors can do the same, but if they prefer to manually check every few seconds instead, be my guest.
I understand. What you don’t understand is that they are buying a finite number of units. Rather than engaging in a price war, you simply need to wait for that finite number of units to be filled at which point YOUR bid is now the high one.
Buy orders are about patience.
You do not understand. At all.
I understand. What you don’t understand is that they are buying a finite number of units. Rather than engaging in a price war, you simply need to wait for that finite number of units to be filled at which point YOUR bid is now the high one.
Buy orders are about patience.
You do not understand. At all.
So you believe that only certain people should be permitted to have the highest buy order and that other people should be restricted from adding buy orders that are higher? Based on what objective criteria would you enforce these (entirely subjective) restrictions?
Buy orders are used to get product at the price you want to pay. They are not used to get product as fast as possible as those are what sell listings are for. The OP wants their buy order to be protected from competition rather than simply waiting for the higher orders to be filled.
Server: Devona’s Rest
I am not asking for them to be protected lol. I am asking that programs outside of the game used to track the trading post and text people be looked at if not discontinued. If someone wants to log into the game and watch a bid and refresh and post them then by all means do it. If there are multiple people bidding on it then by all means do it, but the use of a program outside of the game should not be allowed.
Again though, there is no way to know if any player is using these services because it is simply a website that they have open. It’s no different than using a timer site to see if Ulgoth the Modniir is getting ready to spawn. I could have a series of hourglasses set up in my house and tip them as needed in order to manually track the world boss spawns, or I could go to a website that alerts me when they are up. This is the exact same thing where you have opted to use the manual method while other players have opted to get alerts sent to them.
Server: Devona’s Rest
I am not asking for them to be protected lol. I am asking that programs outside of the game used to track the trading post and text people be looked at if not discontinued. If someone wants to log into the game and watch a bid and refresh and post them then by all means do it. If there are multiple people bidding on it then by all means do it, but the use of a program outside of the game should not be allowed.
And why should they be discontinued? So that everyone would have to manually check their bids every few seconds so as to not to lose their chance at getting a precursor?
If you prefer to do it manually that is your call, but don’t force the rest of us to waste our time. Some of us prefer to actually play the game, than to sit there monitoring bids repeatedly.
Like I have already said, these programs are free, so the playing field is level. If you choose not to use them, that is your choice but not everyone would agree that constant manual monitoring of their TP bids is a fun way to play this game.
(edited by DarkSpirit.7046)
I understand. What you don’t understand is that they are buying a finite number of units. Rather than engaging in a price war, you simply need to wait for that finite number of units to be filled at which point YOUR bid is now the high one.
Buy orders are about patience.
You do not understand. At all.
So you believe that only certain people should be permitted to have the highest buy order and that other people should be restricted from adding buy orders that are higher? Based on what objective criteria would you enforce these (entirely subjective) restrictions?
Buy orders are used to get product at the price you want to pay. They are not used to get product as fast as possible as those are what sell listings are for. The OP wants their buy order to be protected from competition rather than simply waiting for the higher orders to be filled.
You might as well have just posted ‘I do not understand at all’.
You might as well have just posted ‘I do not understand at all’.
I’m just going to assume that your lack of supporting arguments belies your ignorance of the content of this discussion and that your lack of knowledge generated the impetus for you to lash out at my post. Your impotent insults are duly noted and filed under “laughable” in the “irrelevant” cabinet.
Server: Devona’s Rest
The trading post text alert programs are kinda like text alert programs people use for fantasy sports… They’re perfectly legal but they ruin the integrity (or whats left of guild wars 2 TP’s integrity……… yeah… anyway…) of your fantasy league by making it so people don’t have to pay any actual live attention to the league or TP, just jump to attention and hop on whenever they get a text… is it legal, yes… kinda poor sportsmanship though if you ask me but a good way to go for the gw2’s general theme of hitting the path of least resistance.
Just thinking about it but maybe a good compromise would to be to add a delay to the rate that information from the game is released. A 30 min- 1hour or so delay and then the programs can see the info and text people or whatever.
Wouldnt work as it is now, what people dont understand is that the API used by the 3rd party tools are the same as the one used by the ingame client, if you want to add a delay to the information you would suffer the same within the game.
Atm there is no easy way to remove this issue (if that’s what one wants), the quick fix which is locking down an authentication mechanism so out of game use isn’t possible would still require a big redesign of the current TP functionality and with Asia launch/Test Verification etc. we are talking about several months turnaround time at least.
The trading post text alert programs are kinda like text alert programs people use for fantasy sports… They’re perfectly legal but they ruin the integrity (or whats left of guild wars 2 TP’s integrity……… yeah… anyway…) of your fantasy league by making it so people don’t have to pay any actual live attention to the league or TP, just jump to attention and hop on whenever they get a text… is it legal, yes… kinda poor sportsmanship though if you ask me but a good way to go for the gw2’s general theme of hitting the path of least resistance.
Unlike you, I don’t enjoy checking my bids every few seconds so I am glad they are there so that I can actually play the game while making sure that I can get the items that I want.
It is a smarter way of playing the TP and since the programs are free the playing field has always been level. If people choose not learn to use them then they deserve to do it the grindy manual way. Those people who choose to learn would benefit from them. Same with everything else, knowing to search the wiki would give an advantage but some people are just too lazy to even do that.
(edited by DarkSpirit.7046)
Wouldnt work as it is now, what people dont understand is that the API used by the 3rd party tools are the same as the one used by the ingame client, if you want to add a delay to the information you would suffer the same within the game.
That is right. This api would be what a bot would use to “pretend” to be the game client. Legit third party tools have no choice at the moment but to use the same api.
Which is also why I have been asking ArenaNet, for a long time now, to release a TP api server, using an official TP api for apps, to better control app traffic.
(edited by DarkSpirit.7046)
Ok. Now the pro-text notifiers are showing their cards en masse. They want to “play the game instead”, while making sure they have the highest bid out there on any and all products on which they are bidding. What. The. Kitten. This is kittening me off again, and I promised myself to stay away from this toxic mess. You know who use that argument as well, each and every time? Botters. They’d rather create a program for the not-so-fun stuff. So that they can “enjoy the game instead”. Well guess what, you’re not the only ones.
And it’s always the same programmers that enter these threads, too. The persons that created the notifiers.
You, mister programmer/notifier user, have a MAJOR advantage over normal players who (1) presume a notifier is against the TOS + code of conduct (which it is, don’t make me show you again) or (2) don’t know about these programs because, and here is the real deal they shouldn’t have to.
Don’t deny your in-game advantage while stating it in the same thread. Just don’t go there.
Don’t deny your in-game advantage while stating it in the same thread. Just don’t go there.
Everything is an in-game advantage and that includes the ability to use wiki, gw2spidy, many other websites and apps etc.
Are all of these built into the game? Obviously not. But for those people who know where to get the information and learnt how to use the FREE tools that are available to EVERYONE would gain an obvious advantage.
You can choose not to use them, that is your choice. Personally that sounds silly to me, but it is your choice.
You, mister programmer/notifier user, have a MAJOR advantage over normal players who (1) presume a notifier is against the TOS + code of conduct (which it is, don’t make me show you again)
Do you believe that timers for world bosses also violate the TOS?
Server: Devona’s Rest
…
And it’s always the same programmers that enter these threads, too. The persons that created the notifiers.
You, mister programmer/notifier user, have a MAJOR advantage over normal players who (1) presume a notifier is against the TOS + code of conduct (which it is, don’t make me show you again) or (2) don’t know about these programs because, and here is the real deal they shouldn’t have to.
Don’t deny your in-game advantage while stating it in the same thread. Just don’t go there.
Hey!!!!
Dont talk down on programmers, we are the guys who are actually pushing the limits of the modern society!
I agree with buttercup- you should not have to use OUTSIDE tools for something in game. I realize there is nothing that says I have to.. but be real to be competitive or get many items from the trading post you have to at this point.
I thought that programs from 3rd parties where not allowed. Just because it is not combat related I guess they let it slide. I am truly surprised it is allowed.
Programs from 3rd parties are allowed if they don’t violate the TOS.
Sending a notification violates nothing. If the program actually logged in and relisted your items on your behalf we’d be having a very different conversation.
Server: Devona’s Rest
I agree with buttercup- you should not have to use OUTSIDE tools for something in game. I realize there is nothing that says I have to.. but be real to be competitive or get many items from the trading post you have to at this point.
I thought that programs from 3rd parties where not allowed. Just because it is not combat related I guess they let it slide. I am truly surprised it is allowed.
Guess what? Wiki is an outside tool. Gw2spidy is an outside tool. Boss timers are outside tools, etc. I can go on and on.
And you thought wrong. The gw2spidy owner checked with ArenaNet before he started his website. Many third party developers, including Zicore, checked with ArenaNet and even posted here in this very forum. We all asked the same questions before, multiple times.
No they are allowed, just like using google to find walkthroughs are ok.
Whats is against the TOS is to use programs that directly interact with the game client (or modify it). The tools online are allowed since they dont directly interface with your client.
What is argued is that the data they are using are gathered from methods that are in violation of the TOS so the only one who broke the TOS is the actual 3rd party tool when scrubbing the information not the tools he makes available based on the data.
edit: what could further be argued is whether game assets used by these tools are ok to be reused for 3rd parties (ie game icons/assets etc). However ANet has not take a firm stance on any of these arguments so far.
(edited by aeneq.1760)
When you use dragon timers or wiki does that effect other players though? Do you get a text message when a dragon is up because it is necessary? I realize that if this was to disappear it would cut deep into many pockets.. so I understand the defense. That said I still think that this should be a major issue that is looked into, or does arenanet just expect us to use the outside programs to use their trading post effectively? Was that the plan all along? Why not make a sticky then notifying all the players of these websites they need to sign up for so they can trade- without interfering with their game play, or watching tv, or whatever else they may be doing at the time so they know to log in and adjust their bids.
When you use dragon timers or wiki does that effect other players though?
Strictly speaking that is not true. By mass guesting to a particular server, you push other players into overflow so there is competition to get into boss events.
Do you get a text message when a dragon is up because it is necessary? I realize that if this was to disappear it would cut deep into many pockets.. so I understand the defense. That said I still think that this should be a major issue that is looked into, or does arenanet just expect us to use the outside programs to use their trading post effectively? Was that the plan all along? Why not make a sticky then notifying all the players of these websites they need to sign up for so they can trade- without interfering with their game play, or watching tv, or whatever else they may be doing at the time so they know to log in and adjust their bids.
Since many third party devs, have already posted our questions to them, multiple times, and they have not given us a definite reply, I feel that we have done our due diligence in checking with them first. Some (e.g. gw2spidy owner), seem to have obtained a more definitive ‘ok’ from them though. By extension, many third party devs look into gw2spidy code and assume that it would be ok if they do the same.
I am not sure silence means that it is ok.. maybe they are just not sure how to handle it. I suppose though that if people using these programs had more competition that was aware of them and knew how to use them.. maybe it would be less of an issue- because lets face it there are players that want to learn to flip on the tp everyday and they want to know where to start. I think that a guide for new players would be good.. show them the ropes point them to how to get a text and how to outbid and undercut. Maybe then it would not be such an issue because it would be 100 people getting that text looking to overbid you by 1 copper to flip for profit than 1 person actually trying to buy the freaking item.