“You know what the chain of command is?
It’s the chain I beat you with until you
recognize my command!”
It’s the chain I beat you with until you
recognize my command!”
Traidingpost Flipping should brought in line
I really don’t know why you fixate on that reward diction thingie but as also stated more than enough, an imbalanced gold spread can be very harmful for every economy.
Also, every time when I explain why traiding post flippers have no (great) positive effect on the economy, all just keep saying “you’re wrong because they’re good for the economy”, which simply isn’t an argument.Its not what I am saying but what John Smith said in earlier posts, here some quotes:
It’s possible I’ve missed it and I apologize if that’s true, but I haven’t seen any evidence or even a correct hypothesis that a group of the rich can negatively effect your gameplay experience. I think a clear set of ideas would help me understand and respond to the issue.
P.S. Don’t say luxury goods or I will refer you to the first rule of the tautology club.
Let’s stop discussing possible “solutions”. Before discussing a solution you must first prove a problem. I have yet to see any evidence internally or externally that there is a problem.
Speculation on player wealth is not evidence of a problem.
An anecdote is not evidence unless it demonstrates a systemic problem.2. I know you said it already, but I’ll restate, that prices of high end goods aren’t being controlled.
3. The prices of high end goods are VERY close, if not exactly the same, to what they would be without any “TP Barons” wanting those items. There’s too much velocity for individual rich people to influence the supply/demand equation all that much, which is the only control they have if they aren’t manipulating prices.Flippers increase liquidity and bring prices closer to equilibrium, almost always lowering prices and providing preferences to other players. I see no reason why anyone would want to stop that.
The key problem in this debate is that HHR LostProphet doesn’t understand how the economy works. This is evident by his complete misunderstanding of the TP, it’s mechanics, and “profit structure”. This is one of the reasons why John doesn’t debate these silly threads as much as we do. No matter how much he tries to explain things, there are some players who just can’t, or won’t understand. I give John credit for trying though. He’s one of the few Anet employees that goes out of his way to talk to us players.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
I really don’t know why you fixate on that reward diction thingie but as also stated more than enough, an imbalanced gold spread can be very harmful for every economy.
Also, every time when I explain why traiding post flippers have no (great) positive effect on the economy, all just keep saying “you’re wrong because they’re good for the economy”, which simply isn’t an argument.Its not what I am saying but what John Smith said in earlier posts, here some quotes:
It’s possible I’ve missed it and I apologize if that’s true, but I haven’t seen any evidence or even a correct hypothesis that a group of the rich can negatively effect your gameplay experience. I think a clear set of ideas would help me understand and respond to the issue.
P.S. Don’t say luxury goods or I will refer you to the first rule of the tautology club.
Let’s stop discussing possible “solutions”. Before discussing a solution you must first prove a problem. I have yet to see any evidence internally or externally that there is a problem.
Speculation on player wealth is not evidence of a problem.
An anecdote is not evidence unless it demonstrates a systemic problem.2. I know you said it already, but I’ll restate, that prices of high end goods aren’t being controlled.
3. The prices of high end goods are VERY close, if not exactly the same, to what they would be without any “TP Barons” wanting those items. There’s too much velocity for individual rich people to influence the supply/demand equation all that much, which is the only control they have if they aren’t manipulating prices.Flippers increase liquidity and bring prices closer to equilibrium, almost always lowering prices and providing preferences to other players. I see no reason why anyone would want to stop that.
The key problem in this debate is that HHR LostProphet doesn’t understand how the economy works. This is evident by his complete misunderstanding of the TP, it’s mechanics, and “profit structure”. This is one of the reasons why John doesn’t debate these silly threads as much as we do. No matter how much he tries to explain things, there are some players who just can’t, or won’t understand. I give John credit for trying though. He’s one of the few Anet employees that goes out of his way to talk to us players.
I don’t know how you get to that assumption but you constantly over complicate things. The GW2 economy is way simpler than the normal economy and many of the stated arguments going for traiding post flipping related to the real economy simply don’t apply to the GW2 economy. John Smith says that flippers do speed the the market up. Well, they certainly do, but what is the gain?
The argument that flippers hold the prices stable doesn’t apply either, they do delay the ups and downs at best.
The only way how flippers can keep the price stable or low is by putting up as cheap buy-listings as possible. There is seriously no other way than that that flippers lower the prices.
The problem with flippers is not an imminent one but a design related one:
What should be most rewarding in GuildWars2, a MMO? Should be the core MMO gameplay, aka. PvE the most rewarding one? Should be the PvP the most rewarding one since it requires skill to be better than other players? Or WvW because you need good tactics and proper structures? Or should it be the traiding post, which doesn’t belong to a MMO, which does not encourage you to play the game, which does not encourage teamplay?
The problem I have with traiding post flippers is a simple one. I simply don’t like others to be richer than me, even when I actually play the game and they’re just sitting next to the merchant, selling and buying stuff.
But there is a deeper problem that does strike every player that is looking for an efficient way to make gold: If you want to make the most gold, you have to go to the traiding post. Everything else is not as rewarding gold-wise, it also gets exploited by flippers, it furthermore encourages you to look for the best way to trick others, to make the most benefit of others, to leave all other players unnoticed. It’s unhealthy, it’s against that, what a MMO stand for, namely going out and raiding stuff, beating content. It is at last the most boring part of the game. If the traiding post is considered by the devs as best method of making gold, then GW2 is on the best way to die a crucial death.
So again, it’s a design decision: Which part of the game should be most rewarding, should get the most attraction. I really hope for the sake of GW2 that the answer isn’t the traiding post.
(edited by HHR LostProphet.4801)
The problem I have with traiding post flippers is a simple one. I simply don’t like others to be richer than me
This is the heart and soul of your complaint. Another reason why some experienced players have a hard time explaining why the GW2 economy is just fine.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
The problem I have with traiding post flippers is a simple one. I simply don’t like others to be richer than me, even when I actually play the game and they’re just sitting be the merchant, selling and buying stuff.
So thats the reason. You ARE jealous. Period. There really no other way to put it. At the very core of your argument is nothing more then simple jealousy.
Anything you say at this point isn’t really going to make ANY of your arguments have any merit.
Thank you for playing! Please come again!
“You know what the chain of command is?
It’s the chain I beat you with until you
recognize my command!”
It’s the chain I beat you with until you
recognize my command!”
The problem I have with traiding post flippers is a simple one. I simply don’t like others to be richer than me, even when I actually play the game and they’re just sitting be the merchant, selling and buying stuff.
So thats the reason. You ARE jealous. Period. There really no other way to put it. At the very core of your argument is nothing more then simple jealousy.
Anything you say at this point isn’t really going to make ANY of your arguments have any merit.
Thank you for playing! Please come again!
Thank you for (not) reading! Please don’t come again!
Thank you for (not) reading! Please don’t come again!
No we read the most important part of your whole post:
The problem I have with traiding post flippers is a simple one. I simply don’t like others to be richer than me
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
I really don’t know why you fixate on that reward diction thingie but as also stated more than enough, an imbalanced gold spread can be very harmful for every economy.
Also, every time when I explain why traiding post flippers have no (great) positive effect on the economy, all just keep saying “you’re wrong because they’re good for the economy”, which simply isn’t an argument.Its not what I am saying but what John Smith said in earlier posts, here some quotes:
It’s possible I’ve missed it and I apologize if that’s true, but I haven’t seen any evidence or even a correct hypothesis that a group of the rich can negatively effect your gameplay experience. I think a clear set of ideas would help me understand and respond to the issue.
P.S. Don’t say luxury goods or I will refer you to the first rule of the tautology club.
Let’s stop discussing possible “solutions”. Before discussing a solution you must first prove a problem. I have yet to see any evidence internally or externally that there is a problem.
Speculation on player wealth is not evidence of a problem.
An anecdote is not evidence unless it demonstrates a systemic problem.2. I know you said it already, but I’ll restate, that prices of high end goods aren’t being controlled.
3. The prices of high end goods are VERY close, if not exactly the same, to what they would be without any “TP Barons” wanting those items. There’s too much velocity for individual rich people to influence the supply/demand equation all that much, which is the only control they have if they aren’t manipulating prices.Flippers increase liquidity and bring prices closer to equilibrium, almost always lowering prices and providing preferences to other players. I see no reason why anyone would want to stop that.
the problem is JS is talking about a class of super rich, in the tune of 1%ers, IE a couple insanely rich guys, but what if you have a plateau aristocracy, where the top 25% of players make 5 to 20 times more than the bottom 60%
They can easily sustain high end prices with 25% of the population on low supply items, somewhere to the tune of 5 times greater than what the bottom 60% might find reasonable price wise.
basically John smith was talking about individual rich people, not an upperclass, who would in fact have sizable effect on the price differential, more noticeable as that disparity grows.
and you can see the effects, high end items values grow at a faster rate than overall inflation.
Thank you for (not) reading! Please don’t come again!
No we read the most important part of your whole post:
The problem I have with traiding post flippers is a simple one. I simply don’t like others to be richer than me
No you’re just missing the whole point, in fact it’s like you’re heading in the opposite direction. That what you quoted is my personal opinion. And I can express my opinion as much as I want. My opinion however is not the reason why I wrote this thread. I wrote this thread because traiding post flipping is unfair, because it breaks the normal time-spent/reward pattern. And wether or not “fair” is a debateable term I can try to make this game a little bit fairer, especially because the devs actually can make the game fairer, so that this game will maintain a healthier state.
(edited by HHR LostProphet.4801)
The problem I have with traiding post flippers is a simple one. I simply don’t like others to be richer than me, even when I actually play the game and they’re just sitting be the merchant, selling and buying stuff.
So thats the reason. You ARE jealous. Period. There really no other way to put it. At the very core of your argument is nothing more then simple jealousy.
Anything you say at this point isn’t really going to make ANY of your arguments have any merit.
Thank you for playing! Please come again!
jealousy as a motive force doesnt invalidate criticism.
A orphan kid being jealous of kids with parents doesnt invalidate his need/desire for parents.
A 60 hour working class man being jealous of the people who can afford to send their kids to ivy league schools does not change the fact even though his kid may be smart enough to go to that school, he cant afford it, and thus his kids options are limited.
A Woman being jealous of her husbands mistress doesnt change the reality that he is cheating on her and spending his time with another woman.
“lol you jelly”
“lol you mad”
is just a means of dismissing something and trivializing a persons understanding/opinion. Just because some one has an emotional response, or motivation, doesnt mean that whatever they say is automaticly invalid.
Thank you for (not) reading! Please don’t come again!
No we read the most important part of your whole post:
The problem I have with traiding post flippers is a simple one. I simply don’t like others to be richer than me
No you’re just missing the whole point, in fact it’s like you’re heading in the opposite direction. That what you quoted is my personal opinion. And I can express my opinion as much as I want. My opinion however is not the reason why I wrote this thread. I wrote this thread because traiding post flipping is unfair, because it breaks the normal time-spent/reward pattern. And wether or not “fair” is a debateable term I can try to make this game a little bit fairer, especially because the devs actually can make the game fairer, so that this game will maintain a healthier state.
Fairness can be up for debate, especially when you say things like:
The problem I have with traiding post flippers is a simple one. I simply don’t like others to be richer than me
So yes, this whole debate is centered around your ideal “fairness” that only applies to how you view the game.
FYI – the GW2 economy is already in a “healthy” state. And we can all thank John Smith for that.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
They can easily sustain high end prices with 25% of the population on low supply items, somewhere to the tune of 5 times greater than what the bottom 60% might find reasonable price wise.
You mean when it comes to low supply, high demand items, most of them are bought from the TP by players who have a lot of money? Shocking!
It’s almost as though the players selling them want to make money or something… this is completely wrong and needs to be stopped immediately!
Thank you for (not) reading! Please don’t come again!
No we read the most important part of your whole post:
The problem I have with traiding post flippers is a simple one. I simply don’t like others to be richer than me
No you’re just missing the whole point, in fact it’s like you’re heading in the opposite direction. That what you quoted is my personal opinion. And I can express my opinion as much as I want. My opinion however is not the reason why I wrote this thread. I wrote this thread because traiding post flipping is unfair, because it breaks the normal time-spent/reward pattern. And wether or not “fair” is a debateable term I can try to make this game a little bit fairer, especially because the devs actually can make the game fairer, so that this game will maintain a healthier state.
Fairness can be up for debate, especially when you say things like:
The problem I have with traiding post flippers is a simple one. I simply don’t like others to be richer than me
So yes, this whole debate is centered around your ideal “fairness” that only applies to how you view the game.
FYI – the GW2 economy is already in a “healthy” state. And we can all thank John Smith for that.
That however is your opinion, thanks for your input tho.
Oh, and I can differentiate between opinions and arguments, on the contrary to some other guys around here..
(edited by HHR LostProphet.4801)
Thank you for (not) reading! Please don’t come again!
No we read the most important part of your whole post:
The problem I have with traiding post flippers is a simple one. I simply don’t like others to be richer than me
No you’re just missing the whole point, in fact it’s like you’re heading in the opposite direction. That what you quoted is my personal opinion. And I can express my opinion as much as I want. My opinion however is not the reason why I wrote this thread. I wrote this thread because traiding post flipping is unfair, because it breaks the normal time-spent/reward pattern. And wether or not “fair” is a debateable term I can try to make this game a little bit fairer, especially because the devs actually can make the game fairer, so that this game will maintain a healthier state.
Fairness can be up for debate, especially when you say things like:
The problem I have with traiding post flippers is a simple one. I simply don’t like others to be richer than me
So yes, this whole debate is centered around your ideal “fairness” that only applies to how you view the game.
FYI – the GW2 economy is already in a “healthy” state. And we can all thank John Smith for that.
That however is your opinion, thanks for your input tho.
Oh, and I can differentiate between opinions and arguments, on the contrary to some other guys around here..
Actually, it’s not my opinion, but rather facts based on status updates by Anet’s John Smith.
So on one side, we have you with a personal opinion, and the other side we have an economic expert who works for Anet.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
(edited by Smooth Penguin.5294)
Thank you for (not) reading! Please don’t come again!
No we read the most important part of your whole post:
The problem I have with traiding post flippers is a simple one. I simply don’t like others to be richer than me
No you’re just missing the whole point, in fact it’s like you’re heading in the opposite direction. That what you quoted is my personal opinion. And I can express my opinion as much as I want. My opinion however is not the reason why I wrote this thread. I wrote this thread because traiding post flipping is unfair, because it breaks the normal time-spent/reward pattern. And wether or not “fair” is a debateable term I can try to make this game a little bit fairer, especially because the devs actually can make the game fairer, so that this game will maintain a healthier state.
Fairness can be up for debate, especially when you say things like:
The problem I have with traiding post flippers is a simple one. I simply don’t like others to be richer than me
So yes, this whole debate is centered around your ideal “fairness” that only applies to how you view the game.
FYI – the GW2 economy is already in a “healthy” state. And we can all thank John Smith for that.
That however is your opinion, thanks for your input tho.
Oh, and I can differentiate between opinions and arguments, on the contrary to some other guys around here..Actually, it’s not my opinion, but rather facts based on status updates by Anet’s John Smith.
ya but that’s just another guys opinion, even though it’s a dev so he must know much more than normal players.
That being said, a bunch of people is complaining about grinding, with flipping it is a ticket way out without needing to spend too much time grinding. So it is not all bad.
No you’re just missing the whole point, in fact it’s like you’re heading in the opposite direction. That what you quoted is my personal opinion. And I can express my opinion as much as I want. My opinion however is not the reason why I wrote this thread. I wrote this thread because traiding post flipping is unfair, because it breaks the normal time-spent/reward pattern. And wether or not “fair” is a debateable term I can try to make this game a little bit fairer, especially because the devs actually can make the game fairer, so that this game will maintain a healthier state.
Your prejudice against “wealthy” players is the basis of your complaint, and prevents healthy discussion because everything you say and read is filtered through this perception.
The game is actually quite fair as it is now. The game is designed around casual players, who generally speaking have less time to play and more disposable income to spend on the game. Having most items available for gold on the TP encourages these players to buy gems and convert them to gold, refilling the exchange and allowing players with more time than money to buy those gems for gold they got from farming/TP sales.
So players who devote a lot of time to the game can accumulate gold/items and buy/sell on the TP while players who devote some money to the game can buy what they need and want from the TP without grinding the game with their limited play time.
It’s really an elegant system, the only flaw being that up to this point, there have been more players spending time than money so the gold cost per gem keeps going up. Eventually it will be difficult to sustain this largely one-way exchange and gold spending will decline until more players spend cash for gems and convert them to gold.
That you, personally, do not like this system doesn’t mean anything. Anet is not going to throw out their entire economic system because you don’t like it.
Okay so… over the last few weeks I’ve just started is to tp flipping for my legendary; I’ve done everything from dungeon farming; I know every gold making tactic there is from mystic forging to farming to EoTM and WvW to salvaging so please don’t suggest any of those; this is specifically for the TP. I keep reading in map chat that people are making like 60-300 g just by flipping but I only get like 5-6g from it. What I do is I order like 5-10 stacks of an item I see has a higher supply ratio than demand, I wait overnight and get what I receive and flip it back accounting for the 15% tax and stuff. Now heres what I don’t understand: what am I doing wrong? I even have a spreadsheet for projecting profits but each day I can only net like maximum 6g.
They can easily sustain high end prices with 25% of the population on low supply items, somewhere to the tune of 5 times greater than what the bottom 60% might find reasonable price wise.
You mean when it comes to low supply, high demand items, most of them are bought from the TP by players who have a lot of money? Shocking!
It’s almost as though the players selling them want to make money or something… this is completely wrong and needs to be stopped immediately!
im not saying its illogical tulonart, Im saying it is logical. and based on that logic,
What would happen if a sizable group of people make a lot more than everyone else?
What would happen if a certain playstyle exhibited by 20% of the players earns 5 to 20 times more money than other playstyles?
As long as the wealth disparity grows, and high end items can only reliably be obtained through gold earning, its basically a done deal that items will continue to go further and further out of reach.
I love how people can discount economic theory and principles because of differences in the game’s economy vs real life’s economy. Does this mean I can discount theory and principles of gravity on the moon since the moon and Earth are not the same?
These topics constantly pop up on these forums, and other games’ forums, largely because people lack knowledge about economics in general and how economies in games function. The former is understandable as economics is normally not taught in schools so most people are never formally introduced to it. However, one would think that if you were to enter into a discussion about it, that you would at least do a little research first.
Otherwise you run into these discussions where you have arguments based solely on personal observations and opinions that masquerade as facts of how things are or are supposed to be. If everyone did this in the real world then we would make no progress but go backwards.
(edited by Ayrilana.1396)
As long as the wealth disparity grows, and high end items can only reliably be obtained through gold earning, its basically a done deal that items will continue to go further and further out of reach
If only there were a way the devs could change the game in some small way. Such as increasing the drop rate of items that are very rare, or reintroducing discontinued items that are very very expensive on the TP.
I know this just isn’t possible, but it’s fun to dream…
The problem I have with traiding post flippers is a simple one. I simply don’t like others to be richer than me, even when I actually play the game and they’re just sitting be the merchant, selling and buying stuff.
So thats the reason. You ARE jealous. Period. There really no other way to put it. At the very core of your argument is nothing more then simple jealousy.
Anything you say at this point isn’t really going to make ANY of your arguments have any merit.
Thank you for playing! Please come again!
Thank you for (not) reading! Please don’t come again!
I’ve been following this thread from the VERY beginning. I’ve read it all.
“You know what the chain of command is?
It’s the chain I beat you with until you
recognize my command!”
It’s the chain I beat you with until you
recognize my command!”
Okay so… over the last few weeks I’ve just started is to tp flipping for my legendary; I’ve done everything from dungeon farming; I know every gold making tactic there is from mystic forging to farming to EoTM and WvW to salvaging so please don’t suggest any of those; this is specifically for the TP. I keep reading in map chat that people are making like 60-300 g just by flipping but I only get like 5-6g from it. What I do is I order like 5-10 stacks of an item I see has a higher supply ratio than demand, I wait overnight and get what I receive and flip it back accounting for the 15% tax and stuff. Now heres what I don’t understand: what am I doing wrong? I even have a spreadsheet for projecting profits but each day I can only net like maximum 6g.
Quite honestly, I dont’ know how to make money from daily flipping too.
What I know is there are items you can invest, and in a few month, the item might double in price. Basically it is not too hard to turn 1000 gold to 2000 gold if you have the initial money.
For example if you buy leather everyday at 8 copper, and sell them at 16 copper, you already double your money from the festival of four winds. Black lion weapon is another not too bad investment. If you bought a bunch of permanent bank license early, you’ll be very rich.
That being said the reason it is so easy to double your money over a few month is probably due to inflation because every item went up in price.
I think the daily flippers play this game like excel sheet wall. You need to find ways to automate, for example a crafter taught me to make money, and he do it through API (whatever that is).
(edited by laokoko.7403)
Okay so… over the last few weeks I’ve just started is to tp flipping for my legendary; I’ve done everything from dungeon farming; I know every gold making tactic there is from mystic forging to farming to EoTM and WvW to salvaging so please don’t suggest any of those; this is specifically for the TP. I keep reading in map chat that people are making like 60-300 g just by flipping but I only get like 5-6g from it. What I do is I order like 5-10 stacks of an item I see has a higher supply ratio than demand, I wait overnight and get what I receive and flip it back accounting for the 15% tax and stuff. Now heres what I don’t understand: what am I doing wrong? I even have a spreadsheet for projecting profits but each day I can only net like maximum 6g.
yeah i think he pointed you to this thread by accident, but i was gonna respond to the other post so may as well do it here.
Basically, you have to do it better.
Pick better items to flip since you apparently only want to flip once a day, look for biggest differential between buy orders and sell orders on a daily basis
Dont flood the markets you choose, which means diversify
look for other ineffeciencies in value other than just buy low sell high, these will usually end up pointing you to the higher velocity flips.
Think about flipping more than once a day.
Flipping a high velocity item multiple times per day will pay better than flipping once a day, even with lower margins
essentially you will make more money in a day
with ten 3% profit flips,
than you would with one 34% profit flip.
and make sure you are flipping appropriate to your investment.
While copper may be giving you a 20% profit, the amount presses and items you have to do to achieve that is huge, and more likely to imbalance the flipping market.
As long as the wealth disparity grows, and high end items can only reliably be obtained through gold earning, its basically a done deal that items will continue to go further and further out of reach
If only there were a way the devs could change the game in some small way. Such as increasing the drop rate of items that are very rare, or reintroducing discontinued items that are very very expensive on the TP.
I know this just isn’t possible, but it’s fun to dream…
Well, regarding the rare drop, they generally don’t, even though they could. Instead, they do things like this geode nonsense and festival token grind.
Anything I post is just the opinion of a very vocal minority of 1.
I love how people can discount economic theory and principles because of differences in the game’s economy vs real life’s economy. Does this mean I can discount theory and principles of gravity on the moon since the moon and Earth are not the same?
They have a point, the economic system in the game is a simulation and lacks many things that exist in the real world. For example I could save nearly every bit of coin I get in the game while saving up for Cultural armor or a Legendary, while in the real world there are recurring costs I can’t avoid like food and shelter that require a good chunk of my income. I’ll never be able to save up enough money for a Rolls Royce limosine, for example, because I can only put aside a small portion of my income towards it.
But they distort the facts to serve their argument and ignore anything that contradicts them… this can happen on both sides of an argument.
I love how people can discount economic theory and principles because of differences in the game’s economy vs real life’s economy. Does this mean I can discount theory and principles of gravity on the moon since the moon and Earth are not the same?
These topics constantly pop up on these forums, and other games’ forums, largely because people lack knowledge about economics in general and how economies in games function. The former is understandable as economics is normally not taught in schools so most people are never formally introduced to it. However, one would think that if you were to enter into a discussion about it, that you would at least do a little research first.
Otherwise you run into these discussions where you have arguments based solely in personal observations and opinions that masquerade as facts of how things are or are supposed to be. If everyone did this in the real world then we would make no process but go backwards.
it means that the rules you created due to observation on earth dont actually match up many times to the rules in a different place.
But a closer analogy would mean the physics you apply on earth dont neccesarily match up to the physics that is applied to game.
As long as the wealth disparity grows, and high end items can only reliably be obtained through gold earning, its basically a done deal that items will continue to go further and further out of reach
If only there were a way the devs could change the game in some small way. Such as increasing the drop rate of items that are very rare, or reintroducing discontinued items that are very very expensive on the TP.
I know this just isn’t possible, but it’s fun to dream…
Well, regarding the rare drop, they generally don’t, even though they could. Instead, they do things like this geode nonsense and festival token grind.
I have made quite a bit of money from the guaranteed-rare-or-better bonus chests from world boss kills. They added this in response to complaints about rewards.
I’ve also seen complaints about reintroducing event rewards and the effect that it has on the value of speculators’ inventories.
Anet does take action when they feel it is appropriate. Your feelings on the matter regarding when or how much is appropriate may differ, of course, but in the end it’s their decision to make, and they have a responsibility to the entire player base, not just you.
(edited by tolunart.2095)
I love how people can discount economic theory and principles because of differences in the game’s economy vs real life’s economy. Does this mean I can discount theory and principles of gravity on the moon since the moon and Earth are not the same?
It’s like arguing that Santa Claus doesn’t exist. One is based on the opinions of a child, while the other is based on reality. Opinions and personal feelings are trumped by numbers and facts.
Now if we were debating something like “The existence of God” between an Atheist and a Christian, then we would have a debate of opinion vs. opinion. That would be open ended, with no side being able to prove either way.
Having said this, I do love a good debate. But I’m curious as to why John allows this thread to continue, when the OP openly admitted that he’s not happy because other people are more rich than him. This turned from a potentially good debate, to a one sided argument against a brick wall.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
Okay so… over the last few weeks I’ve just started is to tp flipping for my legendary; I’ve done everything from dungeon farming; I know every gold making tactic there is from mystic forging to farming to EoTM and WvW to salvaging so please don’t suggest any of those; this is specifically for the TP. I keep reading in map chat that people are making like 60-300 g just by flipping but I only get like 5-6g from it. What I do is I order like 5-10 stacks of an item I see has a higher supply ratio than demand, I wait overnight and get what I receive and flip it back accounting for the 15% tax and stuff. Now heres what I don’t understand: what am I doing wrong? I even have a spreadsheet for projecting profits but each day I can only net like maximum 6g.
Tge problem is that you’ve been reading the forums too much or t alking to too many poor people.
There are only a handful of players (probably a dozen or so) who are making 200+ gold a day by flipping items. It is not easy, it takes a lot of work, and the best flippers buy and sell dozens of differnet items on WEEK long time scales, not daily ones. Prices vary depending on time of day and day of the week. You will need to chart, track, and find the patterns for each item you want to flip over at least a week and then take advantage until the profit dries up and then move to the next item.
The people on the forums make it seem like you just stand in front of the TP and smash your face on the keyboard and that makes you steal all the money from poor players. That just isn’t how it works. Most people who try to flip items end up losing money not making it.
I love how people can discount economic theory and principles because of differences in the game’s economy vs real life’s economy. Does this mean I can discount theory and principles of gravity on the moon since the moon and Earth are not the same?
They have a point, the economic system in the game is a simulation and lacks many things that exist in the real world. For example I could save nearly every bit of coin I get in the game while saving up for Cultural armor or a Legendary, while in the real world there are recurring costs I can’t avoid like food and shelter that require a good chunk of my income. I’ll never be able to save up enough money for a Rolls Royce limosine, for example, because I can only put aside a small portion of my income towards it.
But they distort the facts to serve their argument and ignore anything that contradicts them… this can happen on both sides of an argument.
Yes, you don’t have recurring costs in the game that reduces your income significantly like expenses in the real world. There will always inevitably be differences; however, this does not mean that well established economic principles and be discarded which was my point. They state that something doesn’t apply because of such and such difference when in fact it still does.
Having said this, I do love a good debate. But I’m curious as to why John allows this thread to continue, when the OP openly admitted that he’s not happy because other people are more rich than him. This turned from a potentially good debate, to a one sided argument against a brick wall.
It’s not so much up to him… just stop replying to the OP and eventually the thread will drift off the front page and someone else will recreate the thread. Because we all know flipping is evil and must be abolished.
But they distort the facts to serve their argument and ignore anything that contradicts them… this can happen on both sides of an argument.
Yes, you don’t have recurring costs in the game that reduces your income significantly like expenses in the real world. There will always inevitably be differences; however, this does not mean that well established economic principles and be discarded which was my point. They state that something doesn’t apply because of such and such difference when in fact it still does.
Agreed, see quote above.
Your prejudice against “wealthy” players is the basis of your complaint, and prevents healthy discussion because everything you say and read is filtered through this perception.
Once again: I have nothing against waelthy players as long as they’ve geathered their gold by playing the game, not by flipping the traiding post.
The game is actually quite fair as it is now. The game is designed around casual players, who generally speaking have less time to play and more disposable income to spend on the game. Having most items available for gold on the TP encourages these players to buy gems and convert them to gold, refilling the exchange and allowing players with more time than money to buy those gems for gold they got from farming/TP sales.
So players who devote a lot of time to the game can accumulate gold/items and buy/sell on the TP while players who devote some money to the game can buy what they need and want from the TP without grinding the game with their limited play time.
It’s really an elegant system, the only flaw being that up to this point, there have been more players spending time than money so the gold cost per gem keeps going up. Eventually it will be difficult to sustain this largely one-way exchange and gold spending will decline until more players spend cash for gems and convert them to gold.
That you, personally, do not like this system doesn’t mean anything. Anet is not going to throw out their entire economic system because you don’t like it.
You’ve described a fair game, where people who play more can sell the stuff they’ve found to people who can’t/don’t want to play that much but still want to get the items. Now a thrird party comes in, who neither plays the game, nor spend gold on buying items they need but rather buy items cheap and sell them expensive and cheese their way through guildwars and become the most wealthy players in game.
I think the problem is the economic system actually look like the ones in real world.
1% of the population control 50% of the world wealth.
Rich people get rich by investing(TP flipping) instead of labour(farmers or adventurers)
HHR, you’ve made your prejudice quite clear and I have no interest in discussing it with you.
I love how people can discount economic theory and principles because of differences in the game’s economy vs real life’s economy. Does this mean I can discount theory and principles of gravity on the moon since the moon and Earth are not the same?
These topics constantly pop up on these forums, and other games’ forums, largely because people lack knowledge about economics in general and how economies in games function. The former is understandable as economics is normally not taught in schools so most people are never formally introduced to it. However, one would think that if you were to enter into a discussion about it, that you would at least do a little research first.
Otherwise you run into these discussions where you have arguments based solely in personal observations and opinions that masquerade as facts of how things are or are supposed to be. If everyone did this in the real world then we would make no process but go backwards.
it means that the rules you created due to observation on earth dont actually match up many times to the rules in a different place.
But a closer analogy would mean the physics you apply on earth dont neccesarily match up to the physics that is applied to game.
Except that they do. These are very very basic principles. People lack the knowledge and understanding of them so they immediately discard them as being relevant to the situation.
Okay so… over the last few weeks I’ve just started is to tp flipping for my legendary; I’ve done everything from dungeon farming; I know every gold making tactic there is from mystic forging to farming to EoTM and WvW to salvaging so please don’t suggest any of those; this is specifically for the TP. I keep reading in map chat that people are making like 60-300 g just by flipping but I only get like 5-6g from it. What I do is I order like 5-10 stacks of an item I see has a higher supply ratio than demand, I wait overnight and get what I receive and flip it back accounting for the 15% tax and stuff. Now heres what I don’t understand: what am I doing wrong? I even have a spreadsheet for projecting profits but each day I can only net like maximum 6g.
yeah i think he pointed you to this thread by accident, but i was gonna respond to the other post so may as well do it here.
Basically, you have to do it better.
Pick better items to flip since you apparently only want to flip once a day, look for biggest differential between buy orders and sell orders on a daily basis
Dont flood the markets you choose, which means diversify
look for other ineffeciencies in value other than just buy low sell high, these will usually end up pointing you to the higher velocity flips.
Think about flipping more than once a day.
Flipping a high velocity item multiple times per day will pay better than flipping once a day, even with lower margins
essentially you will make more money in a day
with ten 3% profit flips,
than you would with one 34% profit flip.and make sure you are flipping appropriate to your investment.
While copper may be giving you a 20% profit, the amount presses and items you have to do to achieve that is huge, and more likely to imbalance the flipping market.
Thanks, I’l try and heed your advice.
The problem I have with traiding post flippers is a simple one. I simply don’t like others to be richer than me, even when I actually play the game and they’re just sitting be the merchant, selling and buying stuff.
So thats the reason. You ARE jealous. Period. There really no other way to put it. At the very core of your argument is nothing more then simple jealousy.
Anything you say at this point isn’t really going to make ANY of your arguments have any merit.
Thank you for playing! Please come again!
jealousy as a motive force doesnt invalidate criticism.
A orphan kid being jealous of kids with parents doesnt invalidate his need/desire for parents.
A 60 hour working class man being jealous of the people who can afford to send their kids to ivy league schools does not change the fact even though his kid may be smart enough to go to that school, he cant afford it, and thus his kids options are limited.
A Woman being jealous of her husbands mistress doesnt change the reality that he is cheating on her and spending his time with another woman.“lol you jelly”
“lol you mad”is just a means of dismissing something and trivializing a persons understanding/opinion. Just because some one has an emotional response, or motivation, doesnt mean that whatever they say is automaticly invalid.
Basing an argument that a system that is in good working order is flawed because it’s viewed through the lens of jealousy does pretty make invalidate any arguments. It doesn’t however invaldiate thier feelings on the matter. Also the examples you give are diffrent kinds of jealousy. The orphan kid is jealous based on an emotional need, and a physical need, one that is very valid and actually has merit. He is missing something vital to life. The wife with the husband with a mistress, is also an emotional and physical need and also has merit. The man who works hard to provide for his kids is a very different form of jealousy. The man wants the best for his kids, so he works hard for it. He feels jealous of those who have the money, but is also DOING something about it. While is is primarily an emotional jealousy, there is an emotional need that needs to be filled, and there isn’t a physical need attached. I would say is of “less importance” (for the sake of argument) to the kids NEED and the wifes NEED to be loved by her husband.
The OP is simply jealous of the fact that other people have more money IN A GAME for doing things he either doesn’t understand, or doesn’t want to do. This is “petty” jealousy. There is no physical NEED, or an EMOTIONAL need that needs to be filled. I’m not trying to trivialize his emotional response to a virtual perception of an issue. It’s clear he’s upset about it and thats fine, he can be upset. NO one, not even myself is trying to dismiss that. I didn’t bring up the jealousy as a way to disparage the OP (if it came across that way I apologize) but rather to bring the heart of the matter to the light. For harboring such a jealousy WILL and DOES cloud every argument on the subject. The OP will be unable and unwilling (as he’s already shown) to accept anything anyone has to say. Everything related to the subject is filtered by that jealousy, and will be translated into an argument that only reinforces the position that the game is unablanced and unfair.
So in short, its not about the game being unfair, or fair, it’s more about an emotional issue than it is about anything within the game.
“You know what the chain of command is?
It’s the chain I beat you with until you
recognize my command!”
It’s the chain I beat you with until you
recognize my command!”
You’ve described a fair game, where people who play more can sell the stuff they’ve found to people who can’t/don’t want to play that much but still want to get the items. Now a thrird party comes in, who neither plays the game, nor spend gold on buying items they need but rather buy items cheap and sell them expensive and cheese their way through guildwars and become the most wealthy players in game.
Your argument fails again, this time because your example makes no sense. If someone doesn’t play this game, how would they access game content? This is like me saying that I can be wealthy if I come in and win a game for the Seattle Seahawks (a football team here in America), but I’m not even on the team.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
Okay so… over the last few weeks I’ve just started is to tp flipping for my legendary; I’ve done everything from dungeon farming; I know every gold making tactic there is from mystic forging to farming to EoTM and WvW to salvaging so please don’t suggest any of those; this is specifically for the TP. I keep reading in map chat that people are making like 60-300 g just by flipping but I only get like 5-6g from it. What I do is I order like 5-10 stacks of an item I see has a higher supply ratio than demand, I wait overnight and get what I receive and flip it back accounting for the 15% tax and stuff. Now heres what I don’t understand: what am I doing wrong? I even have a spreadsheet for projecting profits but each day I can only net like maximum 6g.
Quite honestly, I dont’ know how to make money from daily flipping too.
What I know is there are items you can invest, and in a few month, the item might double in price. Basically it is not too hard to turn 1000 gold to 2000 gold if you have the initial money.
For example if you buy leather everyday at 8 copper, and sell them at 16 copper, you already double your money from the festival of four winds. Black lion weapon is another not too bad investment. If you bought a bunch of permanent bank license early, you’ll be very rich.
That being said the reason it is so easy to double your money over a few month is probably due to inflation because every item went up in price.
I think the daily flippers play this game like excel sheet wall. You need to find ways to automate, for example a crafter taught me to make money, and he do it through API (whatever that is).
I wanted to make a correction to what I bolded in your post. There’s relatively little inflation going on as pointed out by John Smith in another thread. What you’re seeing are fluctuations in prices of certain items due to changes in demand and supply. This occurs quite often as the game is always in flux and changing. New sources of an item or a nerf of a source can impact supply. Demand can be increased with a new recipe.
Once again: I have nothing against waelthy players as long as they’ve geathered their gold by playing the game, not by flipping the traiding post.
It doesnt matter where the rich guy got his gold from, be it from trading or playing the game, it effects the way you play the game equally, zip.
Tin Foil [HATS]-Hardcore BLTC-PvP Guild
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
the problem is JS is talking about a class of super rich, in the tune of 1%ers, IE a couple insanely rich guys, but what if you have a plateau aristocracy, where the top 25% of players make 5 to 20 times more than the bottom 60%
They can easily sustain high end prices with 25% of the population on low supply items, somewhere to the tune of 5 times greater than what the bottom 60% might find reasonable price wise.
basically John smith was talking about individual rich people, not an upperclass, who would in fact have sizable effect on the price differential, more noticeable as that disparity grows.
and you can see the effects, high end items values grow at a faster rate than overall inflation.
It is quite possible that we have an upper class how you describe it, i certainly think its way more realistic that those 25% have a way bigger impact on the economy in general tha nthe top 1%. But at that point you cant argue anymore that those 25% obtained their wealth by playing the tp. That group also includes other hardcore players and farmers.
Tin Foil [HATS]-Hardcore BLTC-PvP Guild
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
You’ve described a fair game, where people who play more can sell the stuff they’ve found to people who can’t/don’t want to play that much but still want to get the items. Now a thrird party comes in, who neither plays the game, nor spend gold on buying items they need but rather buy items cheap and sell them expensive and cheese their way through guildwars and become the most wealthy players in game.
Your argument fails again, this time because your example makes no sense. If someone doesn’t play this game, how would they access game content? This is like me saying that I can be wealthy if I come in and win a game for the Seattle Seahawks (a football team here in America), but I’m not even on the team.
Because my argumentation is exaggerated to fit in one sentence. Each flipper has played the game and made some money. Now however they’re neither selling stuff they’ve gathered, or atleast it’s the very minor part, nor are they those who buy the stuff they’ve flipped.
I honestly can’t believe this thread is still going.
Didn’t any of you take economics in high school? I mean, even just basics?
Flipping doesn’t need to be stopped. Nor do I see those people as doing anything wrong. If that’s how they enjoy playing, more power to ‘em. They’re smarter than me lol.
Don’t look at me like that. Whatever you’ve heard, it’s probably not true.
I honestly can’t believe this thread is still going.
Didn’t any of you take economics in high school? I mean, even just basics?
Flipping doesn’t need to be stopped. Nor do I see those people as doing anything wrong. If that’s how they enjoy playing, more power to ‘em. They’re smarter than me lol.
Yeah, I keep following it because of A) I don’t like people who QQ over stupid things, and 2) I’m bored at work :P
“You know what the chain of command is?
It’s the chain I beat you with until you
recognize my command!”
It’s the chain I beat you with until you
recognize my command!”
Okay so… over the last few weeks I’ve just started is to tp flipping for my legendary; I’ve done everything from dungeon farming; I know every gold making tactic there is from mystic forging to farming to EoTM and WvW to salvaging so please don’t suggest any of those; this is specifically for the TP. I keep reading in map chat that people are making like 60-300 g just by flipping but I only get like 5-6g from it. What I do is I order like 5-10 stacks of an item I see has a higher supply ratio than demand, I wait overnight and get what I receive and flip it back accounting for the 15% tax and stuff. Now heres what I don’t understand: what am I doing wrong? I even have a spreadsheet for projecting profits but each day I can only net like maximum 6g.
Quite honestly, I dont’ know how to make money from daily flipping too.
What I know is there are items you can invest, and in a few month, the item might double in price. Basically it is not too hard to turn 1000 gold to 2000 gold if you have the initial money.
For example if you buy leather everyday at 8 copper, and sell them at 16 copper, you already double your money from the festival of four winds. Black lion weapon is another not too bad investment. If you bought a bunch of permanent bank license early, you’ll be very rich.
That being said the reason it is so easy to double your money over a few month is probably due to inflation because every item went up in price.
I think the daily flippers play this game like excel sheet wall. You need to find ways to automate, for example a crafter taught me to make money, and he do it through API (whatever that is).
I wanted to make a correction to what I bolded in your post. There’s relatively little inflation going on as pointed out by John Smith in another thread. What you’re seeing are fluctuations in prices of certain items due to changes in demand and supply. This occurs quite often as the game is always in flux and changing. New sources of an item or a nerf of a source can impact supply. Demand can be increased with a new recipe.
Do you mean a new thread or old thread. Because the newer thread I think John Smith start saying inflation is under controlled, and regulated inflation can be good to the economy.
I honestly can’t believe this thread is still going.
Didn’t any of you take economics in high school? I mean, even just basics?
Flipping doesn’t need to be stopped. Nor do I see those people as doing anything wrong. If that’s how they enjoy playing, more power to ‘em. They’re smarter than me lol.
It’s not offered in a lot of high schools. I can’t give you an exact percentage but I’m sure there have been recent articles about it within the past couple of years. It’s normally lumped up with personal finance classes.
Okay so… over the last few weeks I’ve just started is to tp flipping for my legendary; I’ve done everything from dungeon farming; I know every gold making tactic there is from mystic forging to farming to EoTM and WvW to salvaging so please don’t suggest any of those; this is specifically for the TP. I keep reading in map chat that people are making like 60-300 g just by flipping but I only get like 5-6g from it. What I do is I order like 5-10 stacks of an item I see has a higher supply ratio than demand, I wait overnight and get what I receive and flip it back accounting for the 15% tax and stuff. Now heres what I don’t understand: what am I doing wrong? I even have a spreadsheet for projecting profits but each day I can only net like maximum 6g.
Quite honestly, I dont’ know how to make money from daily flipping too.
What I know is there are items you can invest, and in a few month, the item might double in price. Basically it is not too hard to turn 1000 gold to 2000 gold if you have the initial money.
For example if you buy leather everyday at 8 copper, and sell them at 16 copper, you already double your money from the festival of four winds. Black lion weapon is another not too bad investment. If you bought a bunch of permanent bank license early, you’ll be very rich.
That being said the reason it is so easy to double your money over a few month is probably due to inflation because every item went up in price.
I think the daily flippers play this game like excel sheet wall. You need to find ways to automate, for example a crafter taught me to make money, and he do it through API (whatever that is).
I wanted to make a correction to what I bolded in your post. There’s relatively little inflation going on as pointed out by John Smith in another thread. What you’re seeing are fluctuations in prices of certain items due to changes in demand and supply. This occurs quite often as the game is always in flux and changing. New sources of an item or a nerf of a source can impact supply. Demand can be increased with a new recipe.
Do you mean a new thread or old thread. Because the newer thread I think John Smith start saying inflation is under controlled, and regulated inflation can be good to the economy.
It was a thread titled “inflation” I believe. It may or may not still be on the first page of this subforum. Bleh, I went ahead and found his post.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/bltc/Inflation-2/first#post4115273
Gotta love his alpaca comment.
Okay so… over the last few weeks I’ve just started is to tp flipping for my legendary; I’ve done everything from dungeon farming; I know every gold making tactic there is from mystic forging to farming to EoTM and WvW to salvaging so please don’t suggest any of those; this is specifically for the TP. I keep reading in map chat that people are making like 60-300 g just by flipping but I only get like 5-6g from it. What I do is I order like 5-10 stacks of an item I see has a higher supply ratio than demand, I wait overnight and get what I receive and flip it back accounting for the 15% tax and stuff. Now heres what I don’t understand: what am I doing wrong? I even have a spreadsheet for projecting profits but each day I can only net like maximum 6g.
Quite honestly, I dont’ know how to make money from daily flipping too.
What I know is there are items you can invest, and in a few month, the item might double in price. Basically it is not too hard to turn 1000 gold to 2000 gold if you have the initial money.
For example if you buy leather everyday at 8 copper, and sell them at 16 copper, you already double your money from the festival of four winds. Black lion weapon is another not too bad investment. If you bought a bunch of permanent bank license early, you’ll be very rich.
That being said the reason it is so easy to double your money over a few month is probably due to inflation because every item went up in price.
I think the daily flippers play this game like excel sheet wall. You need to find ways to automate, for example a crafter taught me to make money, and he do it through API (whatever that is).
I wanted to make a correction to what I bolded in your post. There’s relatively little inflation going on as pointed out by John Smith in another thread. What you’re seeing are fluctuations in prices of certain items due to changes in demand and supply. This occurs quite often as the game is always in flux and changing. New sources of an item or a nerf of a source can impact supply. Demand can be increased with a new recipe.
Do you mean a new thread or old thread. Because the newer thread I think John Smith start saying inflation is under controlled, and regulated inflation can be good to the economy.
It was a thread titled “inflation” I believe. It may or may not still be on the first page of this subforum. Bleh, I went ahead and found his post.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/bltc/Inflation-2/first#post4115273
Unless I’m mistaken, he didn’t say there isn’t inflation in that link. He says “if you think inflation is a big problem in GW2…”. That probably mean he admits there is inflation but don’t think it is a series problem.
Most people consider a CPI of 3% to be healthy, and 4 or 5% might still mean it is healthy right?
There will always be inflation. I used “relatively little inflation” in my post to reflect this understanding. It’s just that it’s usually not the cause of substantial price increases of select items that are noticeable to the average player.
I don’t know enough about what’s a good or bad inflation percentage to really answer your question.