Guild Wars 2

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Suggestion:

Add a new binding mechanic, in addition to account bound or soulbound, that prevent the reselling of items bought from the trading post and the reselling of items gathered/crafted/forged out of items which were bought from the trading post.

No thanks to more “bound” status items in GW2. There’s already entirely too much of this going on. At least the other bound status mechanics don’t target a specific demographic quite so blatantly. Nor am I keen on the idea that if this were put in, people would have to farm their own mats to craft and sell the product.

For better or for worse, the TP is the central feature around which the GW2 economy is built. It is the only way players can safely sell to other players. It provides the largest gold sink in the game. It is a main way to gain gold for players who kill mobs, farm champions, etc. as well as for those who play the TP. The OP’s suggestion would impact not only flippers, but crafters. It would also prevent the sale of Legendary weapons on the TP. This suggestion seems guaranteed to lower the number of sales on the TP , thus rendering the sales tax gold sink less effective — without having any impact on the amount of new gold coming into the system.

Sorry, the cons vastly outweigh the pros.

Ayrilana.1396:

There will always be inflation. I used “relatively little inflation” in my post to reflect this understanding. It’s just that it’s usually not the cause of substantial price increases of select items that are noticeable to the average player.

I don’t know enough about what’s a good or bad inflation percentage to really answer your question.

well I’m not sure what “select items” mean.

For example people might say only items related to legendary went up in price. But quite honestly, almost every crafted material which traded regularly on the TP went up in price(and that’s quite a big percentage of items)

Ayrilana.1396:

phys.7689:

Ayrilana.1396:

I love how people can discount economic theory and principles because of differences in the game’s economy vs real life’s economy. Does this mean I can discount theory and principles of gravity on the moon since the moon and Earth are not the same?

These topics constantly pop up on these forums, and other games’ forums, largely because people lack knowledge about economics in general and how economies in games function. The former is understandable as economics is normally not taught in schools so most people are never formally introduced to it. However, one would think that if you were to enter into a discussion about it, that you would at least do a little research first.

Otherwise you run into these discussions where you have arguments based solely in personal observations and opinions that masquerade as facts of how things are or are supposed to be. If everyone did this in the real world then we would make no process but go backwards.

it means that the rules you created due to observation on earth dont actually match up many times to the rules in a different place.
But a closer analogy would mean the physics you apply on earth dont neccesarily match up to the physics that is applied to game.

Except that they do. These are very very basic principles. People lack the knowledge and understanding of them so they immediately discard them as being relevant to the situation.

aspects match up, but a lot doesnt, This is a simulation, its missing many key factors that drive certain economic principles and policies.
One very huge, major one, is that people create items without intent in this game. Another major one is that every item is exactly the same, Another major one is money is printed. Another major one, is the ability to buy gold with an outside source.
There is a huge difference between reality and this game, and even in reality there are multiple ways to skin an economic cat, and various highly educated people with very different solutions to the same problems, and theories.

Its essentially like trying to apply modern psychology to an AI meant to simulate humans. Some things will work because they designed it that way, but other things just wont.
And some people might wonder if you should even try make your AI simulate human psychology.

Flippers do not force players to sell low or buy high, that’s on the players themselves for not seeking better prices.

Flippers can’t control supply. Therefore they can’t force prices higher.

If crafting was insanely profitable @HHR, would you feel the same way toward them for “not playing”.

Flippers “exploit” player psychology. Players want to treat the TP, which is all about buying and selling from and to other players, as another NPC vendor where items and money is immediate rather than seeing it as a flea market where they can set up their own table where they price the items they want to sell and post prices for items they want to buy. It is not the flipper’s fault that players aren’t willing to do this themselves so they step in to do it for them.

The fact that flippers can earn more money from players who voluntarily give it to them because they can’t be bothered for the extra 10 seconds to enter a bid or sell order themselves is a statement about players not flippers. Where is that money that flippers make coming from? It’s from selling goods gathered by other players who can’t be bothered to sell them themselves. They are simply aggregating the profits loss from his “suppliers”, other players. If a players sells the mats he gathered during his play session for 50c each (the current high bid) Vs 80c each (the current low sell order) because it saves him a few seconds then maybe he didn’t deserve the 25-26c each that the flipper makes that could have been theirs. But no, lets complain that players don’t have enough money for high end items and how unfair it is that someone makes money that players is surrendering freely.

@HHR you are arguing for rewarding stupidity by punishing those who aren’t.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I honestly can’t believe this thread is still going.

Didn’t any of you take economics in high school? I mean, even just basics?

Flipping doesn’t need to be stopped. Nor do I see those people as doing anything wrong. If that’s how they enjoy playing, more power to ‘em. They’re smarter than me lol.

in real life flippers generally have access and knowledge, and hustle.
I sell to middleman, because he has access clients that i dont, he makes it his business to find buyers for my products. I also have a vested interest in keeping the value of product high. Its a very different relationship to the one we have in gw2.

basically the only thing they offer buyers is liquidity, and to sellers, possibly more average prices.

laokoko.7403:

Ayrilana.1396:

There will always be inflation. I used “relatively little inflation” in my post to reflect this understanding. It’s just that it’s usually not the cause of substantial price increases of select items that are noticeable to the average player.

I don’t know enough about what’s a good or bad inflation percentage to really answer your question.

well I’m not sure what “select items” mean.

For example people might say only items related to legendary went up in price. But quite honestly, almost every crafted material which traded regularly on the TP went up in price(and that’s quite a big percentage of items)

When I say select items, I mean specific items such as precursors. You have to look at other factors as well before assuming inflation. A lot if crafting item prices went up with ascended gear. Just look at cloth. A lot of people have a misunderstanding of exactly what inflation is and how it is calculated/determined.

phys.7689:

Ayrilana.1396:

phys.7689:

Ayrilana.1396:

I love how people can discount economic theory and principles because of differences in the game’s economy vs real life’s economy. Does this mean I can discount theory and principles of gravity on the moon since the moon and Earth are not the same?

These topics constantly pop up on these forums, and other games’ forums, largely because people lack knowledge about economics in general and how economies in games function. The former is understandable as economics is normally not taught in schools so most people are never formally introduced to it. However, one would think that if you were to enter into a discussion about it, that you would at least do a little research first.

Otherwise you run into these discussions where you have arguments based solely in personal observations and opinions that masquerade as facts of how things are or are supposed to be. If everyone did this in the real world then we would make no process but go backwards.

it means that the rules you created due to observation on earth dont actually match up many times to the rules in a different place.
But a closer analogy would mean the physics you apply on earth dont neccesarily match up to the physics that is applied to game.

Except that they do. These are very very basic principles. People lack the knowledge and understanding of them so they immediately discard them as being relevant to the situation.

aspects match up, but a lot doesnt, This is a simulation, its missing many key factors that drive certain economic principles and policies.
One very huge, major one, is that people create items without intent in this game. Another major one is that every item is exactly the same, Another major one is money is printed. Another major one, is the ability to buy gold with an outside source.
There is a huge difference between reality and this game, and even in reality there are multiple ways to skin an economic cat, and various highly educated people with very different solutions to the same problems, and theories.

Its essentially like trying to apply modern psychology to an AI meant to simulate humans. Some things will work because they designed it that way, but other things just wont.
And some people might wonder if you should even try make your AI simulate human psychology.

Have you studied economics and have a firm understanding of it? I only ask because you kind of proved my point.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I honestly can’t believe this thread is still going.

Didn’t any of you take economics in high school? I mean, even just basics?

Flipping doesn’t need to be stopped. Nor do I see those people as doing anything wrong. If that’s how they enjoy playing, more power to ‘em. They’re smarter than me lol.

Unfortunately, when you have an argument with someone who 1) doesn’t understand the economy and 2) is confusing his personal opinions as facts, this thread will go on forever.

So I’ll summarize how this thread is going:

John Smith – The economy, while not perfect, is completely fine and healthy at the moment.

OP – I don’t like that other players can have more money than me.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I honestly can’t believe this thread is still going.

Didn’t any of you take economics in high school? I mean, even just basics?

Flipping doesn’t need to be stopped. Nor do I see those people as doing anything wrong. If that’s how they enjoy playing, more power to ‘em. They’re smarter than me lol.

Threads like this make me even wonder if high school exists … It’s the only reasonable conclusion I can come to when a group of people with no background believe that someone with a post graduate education who works in their specific field with detailed information is wrong because that group of people ‘feel’ something is bad.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Brother Grimm.5176:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

That is one of the reasons why speculators are bad: they make gold by draining other players gold.

So this entire thread is about anti-capitalism in general (because the above is pretty much a justification for any free market). Glad I didn’t waste my time reading all of it….

Yeah, if you would’ve read the whole thread, you probably wouldn’t post that comment.
And capitalism is neither about draining others money, nor is being against peolpe who make profit at someone else’s expense anti-capitalsm.

I was actually joking, but if any of you think REAL Capitalism (not the Economic term) isn’t about a fool and his money being separated you are sadly delusional….

hi John, haven’t figured out how to quote so please bare with I have no particular view yet on flipping but I found your post interesting and had some questions.

So when you say flipping will result in “lower prices”… how do you mean lower? I mean to say that lets say there were 1000 widgets in the market, and 100 of them are listed at an offerng price that buyers seem to be willing to pay (equillibrium) which we’ll call 10(gold). These 95% of these are currently offered by flipper Fred.

Now I happen to have a sizeable portion of widgets (10 of them) and know that selling all these widgets at the same price as the 100 are currently listed will take me longer than I’d like. Plus I have a feel for the market and realize that by listing them all at 100 G I might cause sellers who have just a few to give up on the 10G price and undercut my price cause they don’t want to line up behind me to sell their’s. Possibly engaging chaos mathematics and causing a traumatic downward spiral in prices as people loose confidence in the value of widgets. So I decide to get mine sold first and realize that it is much more reasonable for me to take a 3G hit and sell at 7. (this is worth it to me cause I really want to go invest in gizmos which I think are a real “deal”)

Therefore there is now a reasonable number of these available at 7G. BUT flipper Fred comes along and purchases these all up (say there is actually only one person selling all those other 100 at the 10G price and he buys my stock, maybe it’s two flippers doing this, but whatever). This purchaser is also not dumb enough to list them since he has 100 already at the price of 10 and also understand 100 is sort of the tipping point after which others give up on waiting and will start undercutting in too large a number. He wants to keep the supply at that cost low enough that he won’t be undercut by folks who’ve given up on waiting. he’s willing to dole out his supply in portions at a time.

How has the flipper made the price of Joe Schmo who wants 1 widget “lower”? I mean he could have bought it at 7, but now has to buy at 10 again because someone who is making a lot of money off trading post is able to manipulate supply of goods. (or whatever the economic term for it is). In any case in the immediate sense a flipper has raised the price.

Perhaps I misunderstand your use of the term flipping as being within a short period of time? Or would say buying and holding for a month qualify as flipping as well?

When you say "This price is decided by the market as a whole. Given the “freeness” of our market in GW2 people can sell for more or less than this price. In a textbook this would never happen because people always want to be in that balanced state. "

Do people in textbooks not anticipate that the balanced state will fluctuate over time based on factors like supply and demand and developer nerfs? Why wouldn’t those whom don’t see better investment options choose to wait for an upward fluctuation and sell for more than the current going rate, speculating that rates will rise and fall as they are wont to do?

[/quote]
When a player adds velocity or liquidity to a market, the result is often lower prices and often prices closer to equilibrium.

Supply and Demand curves can also be called Willingness to Pay and Willingness to Sell curves. Essentially they are the shape of what people are willing to pay or how much people are willing to sell for. If everyone is will to pay $5 then the “demand” curve would be a flat horizontal line at $5.
In real markets the curves end up being curves because people have different preferences or costs. I might be willing to pay $100 for a new video game and you may be willing to pay $50 and yet another person $30. When you extrapolate this out you get a smooth curve of what people are willing to pay (it works the same way for the willingness to sell).

Balance (or equilibrium) occurs when those two lines meet, and people are willing to pay the same amount people are willing to sell. This price is decided by the market as a whole. Given the “freeness” of our market in GW2 people can sell for more or less than this price. In a textbook this would never happen because people always want to be in that balanced state.
[/quote]

Obtena.7952:

Threads like this make me even wonder if high school exists … It’s the only reasonable conclusion I can come to when a group of people with no background believe that someone with a post graduate education who works in their specific field with detailed information is wrong because that group of people ‘feel’ something is bad.

See Global Warming Debate.

“Here’s a bunch of scientific data collected over decades that show the average temperature of the world is rising.”

“Nuh-uh!”

shion.2084:

So when you say flipping will result in “lower prices”… how do you mean lower?

He’s speaking in general terms, specific items may vary. But generally speaking, if there is a 10s difference between the highest buy order and lowest sell order, that represents 10s potential profit for a flipper. Usually several individuals start placing buy orders and bidding up the orders, then listing the items they buy and bidding down the sell orders.

So over the course of a day, the buy orders go from 10s to 10s1c, 10s2c, etc. til it reaches 12s. The sell orders go from 20s to 19s99c, 19c99s, etc. til it reaches a bottom price of 18s.

The gap went from 10s to 6s due to flippers competing with each other for sales. Those who are selling to the flippers get 2s more for each item, and those buying from the flippers pay 2s less for each item.

Flipping = better prices for buyers and sellers through competition.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

I wrote this thread because traiding post flipping is unfair, because it breaks the normal time-spent/reward pattern.

I can make 3-4 gold in about 45 minutes doing dungeon running. To prove your claim about flipping granting more money in less time I challenge you to make 3 -4 gold only using the TP in the same amount of time. You must do this immediately, any research or TP browsing is considered part of your time. You cannot just empty your bank or collections tab. You can only use the gold you have and the TP. If you can make 3-4 gold in 45 minutes then we can continue this conversation.

The point is NO flipping and playing the TP is not easy or fast or cheap.

tolunart.2095:

shion.2084:

So when you say flipping will result in “lower prices”… how do you mean lower?

He’s speaking in general terms, specific items may vary. But generally speaking, if there is a 10s difference between the highest buy order and lowest sell order, that represents 10s potential profit for a flipper. Usually several individuals start placing buy orders and bidding up the orders, then listing the items they buy and bidding down the sell orders.

So over the course of a day, the buy orders go from 10s to 10s1c, 10s2c, etc. til it reaches 12s. The sell orders go from 20s to 19s99c, 19c99s, etc. til it reaches a bottom price of 18s.

The gap went from 10s to 6s due to flippers competing with each other for sales. Those who are selling to the flippers get 2s more for each item, and those buying from the flippers pay 2s less for each item.

Flipping = better prices for buyers and sellers through competition.

if thats the theory, then its flawed, because if the flipper wasnt there, the buyer could have gotten the items at the flippers initial buy price. IE
player wants 7 silver for his widget, buyer is willing to pay 9 silver. eliminate flipper. and either the buyer gets it for 7, or the seller sells it for 9, or they meet in the middle.

When i sell on ebay, ebays fees dont make my prices cheaper, i basically have to include ebays prices in what i sell. If i didnt have ebay fees i would either get more money, or the seller would get a better deal.

tolunart.2095:

Obtena.7952:

Threads like this make me even wonder if high school exists … It’s the only reasonable conclusion I can come to when a group of people with no background believe that someone with a post graduate education who works in their specific field with detailed information is wrong because that group of people ‘feel’ something is bad.

See Global Warming Debate.

“Here’s a bunch of scientific data collected over decades that show the average temperature of the world is rising.”

“Nuh-uh!”

“Also check out the numbers that have been altered to reflect that the temperature of the world is rising”

“Conspiracy nut!”

“Sheep!”

:P

(just to finish out your conversation and generally how it goes, not as a commentary on anything)

Schizo.1375:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

I wrote this thread because traiding post flipping is unfair, because it breaks the normal time-spent/reward pattern.

I can make 3-4 gold in about 45 minutes doing dungeon running. To prove your claim about flipping granting more money in less time I challenge you to make 3 -4 gold only using the TP in the same amount of time. You must do this immediately, any research or TP browsing is considered part of your time. You cannot just empty your bank or collections tab. You can only use the gold you have and the TP. If you can make 3-4 gold in 45 minutes then we can continue this conversation.

The point is NO flipping and playing the TP is not easy or fast or cheap.

uhh are you talking about active time playing, or time of spending?

anyhow as far as that goes, i have made more money a day messing with the TP (not just flipping, but transforming) than running every dungeon path in the game in a day.
That said, its not something i would want to do repeatedly. I basically made a legendary in two weeks from no base materials(once i had the precursor),

Its not braindead easy, but its not that hard either. It does take up time, but it pays better.

So if this is the case, why do i complain and not just capitalize and make mass money playing the TP?

The problem is it made me not want to play the game, and started distorting the value of the items i was pursuing (in my mind)
first mind set, everytime i do a dungeon, or farm, was how much i could or should be making on the TP, or if my orders filled.

Then you get beyond that and its like, why do i even want this special item anyhow, i dont even fight anymore, i play the TP.

Then its like ehh why am i doing this again i dont even really want gold, i wanted that item, that looks cool when i play, only i dont play anymore.

anyhow that was my thought process, and usually by the end im like ehh never again.

Alright, I basically skipped the last 3 pages because it was all garbage. HHR, you need to get one thing through your understanding. The only reason the TP “provides the most gold for invested time” is because other players are more impatient than an ADHD kid on crack wanting a videogame. Their impatience means they sell to buy orders and buy from sell orders. It’s NOT because there’s something wrong with the TP, it’s that there’s something wrong with the PLAYERS.

You want to change the profitability of the TP? Educate the players instead. Clueless players will always complain. Informed players make the money. It’s just as easy as that to reduce the money you can make off the TP without touching the TP itself. Wanting the TP touched because you dont see fit to educate yourself and others on how to make the money work for you is dumb.

Aidan Savage.2078:

Alright, I basically skipped the last 3 pages because it was all garbage. HHR, you need to get one thing through your understanding. The only reason the TP “provides the most gold for invested time” is because other players are more impatient than an ADHD kid on crack wanting a videogame. Their impatience means they sell to buy orders and buy from sell orders. It’s NOT because there’s something wrong with the TP, it’s that there’s something wrong with the PLAYERS.

You want to change the profitability of the TP? Educate the players instead. Clueless players will always complain. Informed players make the money. It’s just as easy as that to reduce the money you can make off the TP without touching the TP itself. Wanting the TP touched because you dont see fit to educate yourself and others on how to make the money work for you is dumb.

The problem with peoples solution, is not exactly that you are wrong, its that you are missing the point. Your solution is, get better at the TP, or get people to stop being fools on the TP.
The problem is, he doesnt want to feel like the only way he can achieve his endgame goals effeciently, is to play the TP.
If he can achieve endgame goals effeciently, without playing the TP, he wont really have a problem with people being super rich.

IE, the solution to the problem of wanting to be able to get things in game in an effecient manner without having to play the tp, cannot be to learn to play the TP,

Flipping is a huge benefit to the market.
The disadvantages of flipping arise when it’s players doing the flipping.

Flipping brings significant benefits to the market:

• It makes the market more efficient
• It narrows the gap between buy and sell prices for slower traded items
• It acts as a gold sink for the game

However, there are several problems with players doing this flipping:

• It is less efficient than a fully automated system would be
• It only works on items where the margin is greater than 15%
• It encourages hoarding of scarce and high demand items
• It detracts from playing content (by returning greater material rewards)
• The returns available create massive wealth inequality in the player base
• It has become a necessary activity to achieve the top end gear (for all but the most dedicated or lucky players)

Instead of relying on flipping by players to make the market more efficient, the BLTC Anet should be doing this flipping itself (c.f. the Gem/Gold exchange).
This would have the following benefits:

• The market would be more efficient because:
  • In-game flipping by BLTC would remove the lag inherent in manual trading
  • BLTC flipping would cover all of the tradable items, all of the time, instantly
  • BLTC would have real-time access to total market information for all its flips
  • Narrower margins could be used as the BLTC would take all the profit
• The incentives for hoarding would be reduced
• Wealth inequality would reduce, leading to a more purchasing equality in the market
• Playing content would become best way to obtain top end equipment (as the profits available from player trading would reduce significantly)
• Trading would no longer be a necessary activity to obtain top-end gear

To do this successfully, Anet would need to:

• Automate BLTC doing its own flipping
• Ensure top-end gear is obtainable without playing the market
• Cope with the objections of players for whom trading is their primary source of gold and in-game status

phys.7689:

tolunart.2095:

shion.2084:

So when you say flipping will result in “lower prices”… how do you mean lower?

He’s speaking in general terms, specific items may vary. But generally speaking, if there is a 10s difference between the highest buy order and lowest sell order, that represents 10s potential profit for a flipper. Usually several individuals start placing buy orders and bidding up the orders, then listing the items they buy and bidding down the sell orders.

So over the course of a day, the buy orders go from 10s to 10s1c, 10s2c, etc. til it reaches 12s. The sell orders go from 20s to 19s99c, 19c99s, etc. til it reaches a bottom price of 18s.

The gap went from 10s to 6s due to flippers competing with each other for sales. Those who are selling to the flippers get 2s more for each item, and those buying from the flippers pay 2s less for each item.

Flipping = better prices for buyers and sellers through competition.

if thats the theory, then its flawed, because if the flipper wasnt there, the buyer could have gotten the items at the flippers initial buy price. IE
player wants 7 silver for his widget, buyer is willing to pay 9 silver. eliminate flipper. and either the buyer gets it for 7, or the seller sells it for 9, or they meet in the middle.

When i sell on ebay, ebays fees dont make my prices cheaper, i basically have to include ebays prices in what i sell. If i didnt have ebay fees i would either get more money, or the seller would get a better deal.

http://economics.about.com/od/market-equilibrium/ss/Supply-And-Demand-Equilibrium.htm

Don’t sell to buyers

Don’t buy from sellers

Always sell at minimum cost

Always bid instead of buying

Ayrilana.1396:

phys.7689:

tolunart.2095:

shion.2084:

So when you say flipping will result in “lower prices”… how do you mean lower?

He’s speaking in general terms, specific items may vary. But generally speaking, if there is a 10s difference between the highest buy order and lowest sell order, that represents 10s potential profit for a flipper. Usually several individuals start placing buy orders and bidding up the orders, then listing the items they buy and bidding down the sell orders.

So over the course of a day, the buy orders go from 10s to 10s1c, 10s2c, etc. til it reaches 12s. The sell orders go from 20s to 19s99c, 19c99s, etc. til it reaches a bottom price of 18s.

The gap went from 10s to 6s due to flippers competing with each other for sales. Those who are selling to the flippers get 2s more for each item, and those buying from the flippers pay 2s less for each item.

Flipping = better prices for buyers and sellers through competition.

if thats the theory, then its flawed, because if the flipper wasnt there, the buyer could have gotten the items at the flippers initial buy price. IE
player wants 7 silver for his widget, buyer is willing to pay 9 silver. eliminate flipper. and either the buyer gets it for 7, or the seller sells it for 9, or they meet in the middle.

When i sell on ebay, ebays fees dont make my prices cheaper, i basically have to include ebays prices in what i sell. If i didnt have ebay fees i would either get more money, or the seller would get a better deal.

http://economics.about.com/od/market-equilibrium/ss/Supply-And-Demand-Equilibrium.htm

i know about that, and i read it again to see if it had any hidden jewels, i dont see any relation to flipping. In fact according to the part that you linked, the equilibrium price cannot be altered signifigantly, which means a middle man stepping in can only reduce either the profit of the buyer, or the seller or both.

JS however says, that you shouldnt go by the textbook in this case, because the trick to the flipper has to do with what happens when things are out of equilibrium.

Which means it really was pointless to link that page, as our discussion is occuring outside of that situation

phys.7689:

Ayrilana.1396:

phys.7689:

tolunart.2095:

shion.2084:

So when you say flipping will result in “lower prices”… how do you mean lower?

He’s speaking in general terms, specific items may vary. But generally speaking, if there is a 10s difference between the highest buy order and lowest sell order, that represents 10s potential profit for a flipper. Usually several individuals start placing buy orders and bidding up the orders, then listing the items they buy and bidding down the sell orders.

So over the course of a day, the buy orders go from 10s to 10s1c, 10s2c, etc. til it reaches 12s. The sell orders go from 20s to 19s99c, 19c99s, etc. til it reaches a bottom price of 18s.

The gap went from 10s to 6s due to flippers competing with each other for sales. Those who are selling to the flippers get 2s more for each item, and those buying from the flippers pay 2s less for each item.

Flipping = better prices for buyers and sellers through competition.

if thats the theory, then its flawed, because if the flipper wasnt there, the buyer could have gotten the items at the flippers initial buy price. IE
player wants 7 silver for his widget, buyer is willing to pay 9 silver. eliminate flipper. and either the buyer gets it for 7, or the seller sells it for 9, or they meet in the middle.

When i sell on ebay, ebays fees dont make my prices cheaper, i basically have to include ebays prices in what i sell. If i didnt have ebay fees i would either get more money, or the seller would get a better deal.

http://economics.about.com/od/market-equilibrium/ss/Supply-And-Demand-Equilibrium.htm

i know about that, and i read it again to see if it had any hidden jewels, i dont see any relation to flipping. In fact according to the part that you linked, the equilibrium price cannot be altered signifigantly, which means a middle man stepping in can only reduce either the profit of the buyer, or the seller or both.

JS however says, that you shouldnt go by the textbook in this case, because the trick to the flipper has to do with what happens when things are out of equilibrium.

Which means it really was pointless to link that page, as our discussion is occuring outside of that situation

There’s more to it that just that link. I’m introducing it gradually to you, and others, so it’s understood. I’ll post the next part that ties in with flipping when I’m back at a computer.

Edit: The following link is more towards what I’m going for. I’m still trying to find a better link that is more generalized and simpler like my previous one.

http://blogs.valvesoftware.com/economics/arbitrage-and-equilibrium-in-the-team-fortress-2-economy/

“how often firms have the chance to change prices and production quantities.”

imo this is the hugest flaw with the economy and leads to many problems and failures.

firms (players who supply items) have little to no control over production(what items are produced, and how many are produced)

I was thinking about this on the drive home. Consider a more GW2’ish case. So say you found out that a large country in Asia was suddenly coming online and going to be interacting with your market. Now lets say you know that as a result a large number of players will come online and want to make ascended items (legendary drops being what they are).

What good would a flipper who enjoys playing the market invest in? Lets say you figure maybe something like Ecto would be important to have. So what does flipper Fred and his mighty guild of banker brothers do? Why they start buying ecto up. They figure that new market is certain to want the stuff cause you need it in pretty much everything “good” and high level.

What is the effect of this speculation on average player Joe Schmoe? Ecto Rises in price considerably, now Joe isn’t a trader and hasn’t been playing the market game… so he doesn’t happen to have mats of it stock piled away. In fact he’d sort of like to buy 100 or so so he can ascend his ring and play a fractal.

However he looks for ecto and finds the price has gone up significantly because of the reasonable expectation of future demand. Because there are people who want to play guildwars the banker way and are stock piling the stuff as well as buying up existing supply. Now GW2 isn’t increasing the rate that the stuff is coming into the market, and the new players from Asia are not selling theirs because they need it and the stuff is so expensive.

Is the argument that everyone is unconnected and free to play the game there way and that the impact of people making money off of market trading for large volume profit does not at all impact the enjoyability of people who don’t want to engage in the activity for the sake of their personal use?

Incidentally this is all theoretical, I have no idea if ecto has gone up in price since the knowledge about China became well known. Nor do I know if people who play the market think like I do about it. I’m sort of interested to check now though….

I would argue that people whom complain about folks playing the banking for profit way could potentially say that their game experience was impacted in a negative way by speculators driving up costs on commodities to artifically high levels. Maybe this is what the nay sayers are concerned about? Is that a more reasonable way to put it?

Essentially to get what they want in a reasonable time they then have to start changing their game style to do the world boss circuit to salvage rares or other things that don’t really suit their interests. Whereas without these people they could have reasonably supplemented off the trading post?

phys.7689:

tolunart.2095:

shion.2084:

So when you say flipping will result in “lower prices”… how do you mean lower?

He’s speaking in general terms, specific items may vary. But generally speaking, if there is a 10s difference between the highest buy order and lowest sell order, that represents 10s potential profit for a flipper. Usually several individuals start placing buy orders and bidding up the orders, then listing the items they buy and bidding down the sell orders.

So over the course of a day, the buy orders go from 10s to 10s1c, 10s2c, etc. til it reaches 12s. The sell orders go from 20s to 19s99c, 19c99s, etc. til it reaches a bottom price of 18s.

The gap went from 10s to 6s due to flippers competing with each other for sales. Those who are selling to the flippers get 2s more for each item, and those buying from the flippers pay 2s less for each item.

Flipping = better prices for buyers and sellers through competition.

if thats the theory, then its flawed, because if the flipper wasnt there, the buyer could have gotten the items at the flippers initial buy price. IE
player wants 7 silver for his widget, buyer is willing to pay 9 silver. eliminate flipper. and either the buyer gets it for 7, or the seller sells it for 9, or they meet in the middle.

When i sell on ebay, ebays fees dont make my prices cheaper, i basically have to include ebays prices in what i sell. If i didnt have ebay fees i would either get more money, or the seller would get a better deal.

Flippers give benefits to people who sell directly and buy directly. Your argument that flippers are bad for people who want to buy stuff with buy orders is flawed because as soon as someone puts in a buy order for an item, he steps into competition with the flippers and adapts the same modus operandi as a flipper, so he cant complain about them.

shion.2084:

I was thinking about this on the drive home. Consider a more GW2’ish case. So say you found out that a large country in Asia was suddenly coming online and going to be interacting with your market. Now lets say you know that as a result a large number of players will come online and want to make ascended items (legendary drops being what they are).

What good would a flipper who enjoys playing the market invest in? Lets say you figure maybe something like Ecto would be important to have. So what does flipper Fred and his mighty guild of banker brothers do? Why they start buying ecto up. They figure that new market is certain to want the stuff cause you need it in pretty much everything “good” and high level.

What is the effect of this speculation on average player Joe Schmoe? Ecto Rises in price considerably, now Joe isn’t a trader and hasn’t been playing the market game… so he doesn’t happen to have mats of it stock piled away. In fact he’d sort of like to buy 100 or so so he can ascend his ring and play a fractal.

However he looks for ecto and finds the price has gone up significantly because of the reasonable expectation of future demand. Because there are people who want to play guildwars the banker way and are stock piling the stuff as well as buying up existing supply. Now GW2 isn’t increasing the rate that the stuff is coming into the market, and the new players from Asia are not selling theirs because they need it and the stuff is so expensive.

Is the argument that everyone is unconnected and free to play the game there way and that the impact of people making money off of market trading for large volume profit does not at all impact the enjoyability of people who don’t want to engage in the activity for the sake of their personal use?

Incidentally this is all theoretical, I have no idea if ecto has gone up in price since the knowledge about China became well known. Nor do I know if people who play the market think like I do about it. I’m sort of interested to check now though….

I would argue that people whom complain about folks playing the banking for profit way could potentially say that their game experience was impacted in a negative way by speculators driving up costs on commodities to artifically high levels. Maybe this is what the nay sayers are concerned about? Is that a more reasonable way to put it?

Essentially to get what they want in a reasonable time they then have to start changing their game style to do the world boss circuit to salvage rares or other things that don’t really suit their interests. Whereas without these people they could have reasonably supplemented off the trading post?

this is a different side of the coin than is being presented, and it isnt incorrect, but in the long term they were going to be screwed anyway. The flippers smoothed out the curve by taking some supply from a time when it was more abundant, and supplying it at times it is low in demand.

So yeah you get price raises in anticipation.

however that kind of goes more into the effects of speculation.

there will also be times when the speculators cause huge spikes instead of smoothing out.

flippers generally do more predictable, consistent hustles, generally going for the sure thing.
for example, an item that they can buy daily for 10 gold, and sell for 15 gold.

What if the sellers complaint is that he would prefer a game where he wasn’t forced to behave like them in order to make use of the market feature of the game?

“Your argument that flippers are bad for people who want to buy stuff with buy orders is flawed because as soon as someone puts in a buy order for an item, he steps into competition with the flippers and adapts the same modus operandi as a flipper, so he cant complain about them.”

[quote=4169207;Wanze.8410:]

phys.7689:

shion.2084:

I was thinking about this on the drive home. Consider a more GW2’ish case. So say you found out that a large country in Asia was suddenly coming online and going to be interacting with your market. Now lets say you know that as a result a large number of players will come online and want to make ascended items (legendary drops being what they are).

What good would a flipper who enjoys playing the market invest in? Lets say you figure maybe something like Ecto would be important to have. So what does flipper Fred and his mighty guild of banker brothers do? Why they start buying ecto up. They figure that new market is certain to want the stuff cause you need it in pretty much everything “good” and high level.

What is the effect of this speculation on average player Joe Schmoe? Ecto Rises in price considerably, now Joe isn’t a trader and hasn’t been playing the market game… so he doesn’t happen to have mats of it stock piled away. In fact he’d sort of like to buy 100 or so so he can ascend his ring and play a fractal.

However he looks for ecto and finds the price has gone up significantly because of the reasonable expectation of future demand. Because there are people who want to play guildwars the banker way and are stock piling the stuff as well as buying up existing supply. Now GW2 isn’t increasing the rate that the stuff is coming into the market, and the new players from Asia are not selling theirs because they need it and the stuff is so expensive.

Is the argument that everyone is unconnected and free to play the game there way and that the impact of people making money off of market trading for large volume profit does not at all impact the enjoyability of people who don’t want to engage in the activity for the sake of their personal use?

Incidentally this is all theoretical, I have no idea if ecto has gone up in price since the knowledge about China became well known. Nor do I know if people who play the market think like I do about it. I’m sort of interested to check now though….

I would argue that people whom complain about folks playing the banking for profit way could potentially say that their game experience was impacted in a negative way by speculators driving up costs on commodities to artifically high levels. Maybe this is what the nay sayers are concerned about? Is that a more reasonable way to put it?

Essentially to get what they want in a reasonable time they then have to start changing their game style to do the world boss circuit to salvage rares or other things that don’t really suit their interests. Whereas without these people they could have reasonably supplemented off the trading post?

this is a different side of the coin than is being presented, and it isnt incorrect, but in the long term they were going to be screwed anyway. The flippers smoothed out the curve by taking some supply from a time when it was more abundant, and supplying it at times it is low in demand.

So yeah you get price raises in anticipation.

however that kind of goes more into the effects of speculation.

there will also be times when the speculators cause huge spikes instead of smoothing out.

flippers generally do more predictable, consistent hustles, generally going for the sure thing.
for example, an item that they can buy daily for 10 gold, and sell for 15 gold.

It goes back to my original question about what defines a flipper I suppose. So someone who will hold on for a month is not a “flipper” then I take it. My game lingo is poor

pdavis.8031:

phys.7689:

pdavis.8031:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

The problem I have with traiding post flippers is a simple one. I simply don’t like others to be richer than me, even when I actually play the game and they’re just sitting be the merchant, selling and buying stuff.

So thats the reason. You ARE jealous. Period. There really no other way to put it. At the very core of your argument is nothing more then simple jealousy.

Anything you say at this point isn’t really going to make ANY of your arguments have any merit.

Thank you for playing! Please come again!

jealousy as a motive force doesnt invalidate criticism.

A orphan kid being jealous of kids with parents doesnt invalidate his need/desire for parents.
A 60 hour working class man being jealous of the people who can afford to send their kids to ivy league schools does not change the fact even though his kid may be smart enough to go to that school, he cant afford it, and thus his kids options are limited.
A Woman being jealous of her husbands mistress doesnt change the reality that he is cheating on her and spending his time with another woman.

“lol you jelly”
“lol you mad”

is just a means of dismissing something and trivializing a persons understanding/opinion. Just because some one has an emotional response, or motivation, doesnt mean that whatever they say is automaticly invalid.

Basing an argument that a system that is in good working order is flawed because it’s viewed through the lens of jealousy does pretty make invalidate any arguments. It doesn’t however invaldiate thier feelings on the matter. Also the examples you give are diffrent kinds of jealousy. The orphan kid is jealous based on an emotional need, and a physical need, one that is very valid and actually has merit. He is missing something vital to life. The wife with the husband with a mistress, is also an emotional and physical need and also has merit. The man who works hard to provide for his kids is a very different form of jealousy. The man wants the best for his kids, so he works hard for it. He feels jealous of those who have the money, but is also DOING something about it. While is is primarily an emotional jealousy, there is an emotional need that needs to be filled, and there isn’t a physical need attached. I would say is of “less importance” (for the sake of argument) to the kids NEED and the wifes NEED to be loved by her husband.

The OP is simply jealous of the fact that other people have more money IN A GAME for doing things he either doesn’t understand, or doesn’t want to do. This is “petty” jealousy. There is no physical NEED, or an EMOTIONAL need that needs to be filled. I’m not trying to trivialize his emotional response to a virtual perception of an issue. It’s clear he’s upset about it and thats fine, he can be upset. NO one, not even myself is trying to dismiss that. I didn’t bring up the jealousy as a way to disparage the OP (if it came across that way I apologize) but rather to bring the heart of the matter to the light. For harboring such a jealousy WILL and DOES cloud every argument on the subject. The OP will be unable and unwilling (as he’s already shown) to accept anything anyone has to say. Everything related to the subject is filtered by that jealousy, and will be translated into an argument that only reinforces the position that the game is unablanced and unfair.

So in short, its not about the game being unfair, or fair, it’s more about an emotional issue than it is about anything within the game.

emotions are irrelevant to a logical argument(meaning it doesnt matter if they have high emotions if the logic is sound), it doesnt really matter what the cause is, what matters is that there is a problem
problem for the orphan, he want parents
problem for the wife, she wants fidelity/time
problem for the man, he wants to be able to send his son to the colleges he can get into

views against segregation were largely motivated by jealousy, and i dont think that they were wrong to be jealous, or wrong in their logic.

problem for HHR he feels the value of the merchant lifestyle outstrips the value of the adventurer lifestyle.

So first you have to ask yourself
is this true?
then you have to ask
should it be this way?
then you have to ask
If it shouldnt be this way, how can i change
if it should be this way, then dunno what to tell him.

i wont get into my opinion on the matter, though people can probably guess from my other posts

Wanze.8410:

phys.7689:

tolunart.2095:

shion.2084:

So when you say flipping will result in “lower prices”… how do you mean lower?

He’s speaking in general terms, specific items may vary. But generally speaking, if there is a 10s difference between the highest buy order and lowest sell order, that represents 10s potential profit for a flipper. Usually several individuals start placing buy orders and bidding up the orders, then listing the items they buy and bidding down the sell orders.

So over the course of a day, the buy orders go from 10s to 10s1c, 10s2c, etc. til it reaches 12s. The sell orders go from 20s to 19s99c, 19c99s, etc. til it reaches a bottom price of 18s.

The gap went from 10s to 6s due to flippers competing with each other for sales. Those who are selling to the flippers get 2s more for each item, and those buying from the flippers pay 2s less for each item.

Flipping = better prices for buyers and sellers through competition.

if thats the theory, then its flawed, because if the flipper wasnt there, the buyer could have gotten the items at the flippers initial buy price. IE
player wants 7 silver for his widget, buyer is willing to pay 9 silver. eliminate flipper. and either the buyer gets it for 7, or the seller sells it for 9, or they meet in the middle.

When i sell on ebay, ebays fees dont make my prices cheaper, i basically have to include ebays prices in what i sell. If i didnt have ebay fees i would either get more money, or the seller would get a better deal.

Flippers give benefits to people who sell directly and buy directly. Your argument that flippers are bad for people who want to buy stuff with buy orders is flawed because as soon as someone puts in a buy order for an item, he steps into competition with the flippers and adapts the same modus operandi as a flipper, so he cant complain about them.

Yeah they are bad for the guy who wants to buy stuff with buy orders, exactly as you say, because they are competition.
they are bad for the guy who wants to sell stuff because they are competition

however, both sides ignore this because they are most likely the type of person who just wants things to be fast.
In general, they are not business men, or, the flipper leaves enough profit that its worthwhile to just say eff it, and keep moving.

at the end of the day, what im saying is the flipper isnt exactly bad, but he isnt really going to overall reduce prices, he is inserting himself into the equilibrium price. The main service he gives is smoother curves, (which can be bad or good for you depending on the situation) and liquid cash.

to be honest, in the current system, without flippers, the basic material sellers would most likely take the main hit, because often a buyer has a better idea what an item is worth (though not always)

but if suppliers were intentional, that would probably shift.

shion.2084:

phys.7689:

shion.2084:

I was thinking about this on the drive home. Consider a more GW2’ish case. So say you found out that a large country in Asia was suddenly coming online and going to be interacting with your market. Now lets say you know that as a result a large number of players will come online and want to make ascended items (legendary drops being what they are).

What good would a flipper who enjoys playing the market invest in? Lets say you figure maybe something like Ecto would be important to have. So what does flipper Fred and his mighty guild of banker brothers do? Why they start buying ecto up. They figure that new market is certain to want the stuff cause you need it in pretty much everything “good” and high level.

What is the effect of this speculation on average player Joe Schmoe? Ecto Rises in price considerably, now Joe isn’t a trader and hasn’t been playing the market game… so he doesn’t happen to have mats of it stock piled away. In fact he’d sort of like to buy 100 or so so he can ascend his ring and play a fractal.

However he looks for ecto and finds the price has gone up significantly because of the reasonable expectation of future demand. Because there are people who want to play guildwars the banker way and are stock piling the stuff as well as buying up existing supply. Now GW2 isn’t increasing the rate that the stuff is coming into the market, and the new players from Asia are not selling theirs because they need it and the stuff is so expensive.

Is the argument that everyone is unconnected and free to play the game there way and that the impact of people making money off of market trading for large volume profit does not at all impact the enjoyability of people who don’t want to engage in the activity for the sake of their personal use?

Incidentally this is all theoretical, I have no idea if ecto has gone up in price since the knowledge about China became well known. Nor do I know if people who play the market think like I do about it. I’m sort of interested to check now though….

I would argue that people whom complain about folks playing the banking for profit way could potentially say that their game experience was impacted in a negative way by speculators driving up costs on commodities to artifically high levels. Maybe this is what the nay sayers are concerned about? Is that a more reasonable way to put it?

Essentially to get what they want in a reasonable time they then have to start changing their game style to do the world boss circuit to salvage rares or other things that don’t really suit their interests. Whereas without these people they could have reasonably supplemented off the trading post?

this is a different side of the coin than is being presented, and it isnt incorrect, but in the long term they were going to be screwed anyway. The flippers smoothed out the curve by taking some supply from a time when it was more abundant, and supplying it at times it is low in demand.

So yeah you get price raises in anticipation.

however that kind of goes more into the effects of speculation.

there will also be times when the speculators cause huge spikes instead of smoothing out.

flippers generally do more predictable, consistent hustles, generally going for the sure thing.
for example, an item that they can buy daily for 10 gold, and sell for 15 gold.

It goes back to my original question about what defines a flipper I suppose. So someone who will hold on for a month is not a “flipper” then I take it. My game lingo is poor

lingo changes with time, but yeah the thing is, even though they are raising prices, if they are correct in the demand, they would be lowering it (in theory) by having supply higher in that emergency. but overall? they would be raising the overall prices by however much profit they make in exchange.

however, the value of this service isnt very strong unless you reach crisis levels, and even then buy orders will mitigate this,

Since when have ectos been over 45 silver?

phys.7689:

Aidan Savage.2078:

Alright, I basically skipped the last 3 pages because it was all garbage. HHR, you need to get one thing through your understanding. The only reason the TP “provides the most gold for invested time” is because other players are more impatient than an ADHD kid on crack wanting a videogame. Their impatience means they sell to buy orders and buy from sell orders. It’s NOT because there’s something wrong with the TP, it’s that there’s something wrong with the PLAYERS.

You want to change the profitability of the TP? Educate the players instead. Clueless players will always complain. Informed players make the money. It’s just as easy as that to reduce the money you can make off the TP without touching the TP itself. Wanting the TP touched because you dont see fit to educate yourself and others on how to make the money work for you is dumb.

The problem with peoples solution, is not exactly that you are wrong, its that you are missing the point. Your solution is, get better at the TP, or get people to stop being fools on the TP.
The problem is, he doesnt want to feel like the only way he can achieve his endgame goals effeciently, is to play the TP.
If he can achieve endgame goals effeciently, without playing the TP, he wont really have a problem with people being super rich.

IE, the solution to the problem of wanting to be able to get things in game in an effecient manner without having to play the tp, cannot be to learn to play the TP,

So it’s a rewards problem and not a TP problem. But this goes back to the point that rewards are “new” money and items coming into the system where as profits from the TP is simply taking advantage of player’s need for immediate gratification.

Lukyromero.6780:

Since when have ectos been over 45 silver?

I needed alot to forge my Flying Mount and craft him Legendary Armor, so i bought them over time, raising prices in the process.

Behellagh.1468:

phys.7689:

Aidan Savage.2078:

Alright, I basically skipped the last 3 pages because it was all garbage. HHR, you need to get one thing through your understanding. The only reason the TP “provides the most gold for invested time” is because other players are more impatient than an ADHD kid on crack wanting a videogame. Their impatience means they sell to buy orders and buy from sell orders. It’s NOT because there’s something wrong with the TP, it’s that there’s something wrong with the PLAYERS.

You want to change the profitability of the TP? Educate the players instead. Clueless players will always complain. Informed players make the money. It’s just as easy as that to reduce the money you can make off the TP without touching the TP itself. Wanting the TP touched because you dont see fit to educate yourself and others on how to make the money work for you is dumb.

The problem with peoples solution, is not exactly that you are wrong, its that you are missing the point. Your solution is, get better at the TP, or get people to stop being fools on the TP.
The problem is, he doesnt want to feel like the only way he can achieve his endgame goals effeciently, is to play the TP.
If he can achieve endgame goals effeciently, without playing the TP, he wont really have a problem with people being super rich.

IE, the solution to the problem of wanting to be able to get things in game in an effecient manner without having to play the tp, cannot be to learn to play the TP,

So it’s a rewards problem and not a TP problem. But this goes back to the point that rewards are “new” money and items coming into the system where as profits from the TP is simply taking advantage of player’s need for immediate gratification.

rewards as i term them dont have to be money.
For example, if the main method of achieving precursors was for beating some hard series of dunegeons with no other rewards within a certain overall time limit, and then they ended up costing the same amount, the means of introduction would be through gameplay, the cost would be high based on how many people can do it, and want to sell someone else the item.

See the thing is, the people complaining, are generally complaining about incentives, and incentives are incentives, whether they are from tp trading or dungeons.

Because the TP merchanting game is so profitable, the incentives to do other content is relatively is low, while merchanting/tping whatever gold meta grind is high.
so you cant really seperate them, they are all linked to incentives.

imo, this imbalance incentives is the root of most of the tp flipper/richness debate.

which isnt to say i dont think the tp has some core problems, but the main focus for these specific anti tp debates is generally one of incentives.

As far as the bigger TP problems, my opinion is the major issues have to do with a lack of control of production, and everyone having to come to market to get things.

shion.2084:

What if the sellers complaint is that he would prefer a game where he wasn’t forced to behave like them in order to make use of the market feature of the game?

Then we wouldnt have to complain in GW2 because he is not forced to behave like them as the has the choice to sell and buy directly.

Awesome, isnt it?

Honestly this thread isn’t constructive at all. No logical counterarguments are being made, and every argument just ends with OP making yet another logical fallacy. OP is obviously just trolling at this point. Why hasn’t the Mods locked this thread yet?

phys.7689:

pdavis.8031:

phys.7689:

pdavis.8031:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

The problem I have with traiding post flippers is a simple one. I simply don’t like others to be richer than me, even when I actually play the game and they’re just sitting be the merchant, selling and buying stuff.

So thats the reason. You ARE jealous. Period. There really no other way to put it. At the very core of your argument is nothing more then simple jealousy.

Anything you say at this point isn’t really going to make ANY of your arguments have any merit.

Thank you for playing! Please come again!

jealousy as a motive force doesnt invalidate criticism.

A orphan kid being jealous of kids with parents doesnt invalidate his need/desire for parents.
A 60 hour working class man being jealous of the people who can afford to send their kids to ivy league schools does not change the fact even though his kid may be smart enough to go to that school, he cant afford it, and thus his kids options are limited.
A Woman being jealous of her husbands mistress doesnt change the reality that he is cheating on her and spending his time with another woman.

“lol you jelly”
“lol you mad”

is just a means of dismissing something and trivializing a persons understanding/opinion. Just because some one has an emotional response, or motivation, doesnt mean that whatever they say is automaticly invalid.

Basing an argument that a system that is in good working order is flawed because it’s viewed through the lens of jealousy does pretty make invalidate any arguments. It doesn’t however invaldiate thier feelings on the matter. Also the examples you give are diffrent kinds of jealousy. The orphan kid is jealous based on an emotional need, and a physical need, one that is very valid and actually has merit. He is missing something vital to life. The wife with the husband with a mistress, is also an emotional and physical need and also has merit. The man who works hard to provide for his kids is a very different form of jealousy. The man wants the best for his kids, so he works hard for it. He feels jealous of those who have the money, but is also DOING something about it. While is is primarily an emotional jealousy, there is an emotional need that needs to be filled, and there isn’t a physical need attached. I would say is of “less importance” (for the sake of argument) to the kids NEED and the wifes NEED to be loved by her husband.

The OP is simply jealous of the fact that other people have more money IN A GAME for doing things he either doesn’t understand, or doesn’t want to do. This is “petty” jealousy. There is no physical NEED, or an EMOTIONAL need that needs to be filled. I’m not trying to trivialize his emotional response to a virtual perception of an issue. It’s clear he’s upset about it and thats fine, he can be upset. NO one, not even myself is trying to dismiss that. I didn’t bring up the jealousy as a way to disparage the OP (if it came across that way I apologize) but rather to bring the heart of the matter to the light. For harboring such a jealousy WILL and DOES cloud every argument on the subject. The OP will be unable and unwilling (as he’s already shown) to accept anything anyone has to say. Everything related to the subject is filtered by that jealousy, and will be translated into an argument that only reinforces the position that the game is unablanced and unfair.

So in short, its not about the game being unfair, or fair, it’s more about an emotional issue than it is about anything within the game.

emotions are irrelevant to a logical argument(meaning it doesnt matter if they have high emotions if the logic is sound), it doesnt really matter what the cause is, what matters is that there is a problem
problem for the orphan, he want parents
problem for the wife, she wants fidelity/time
problem for the man, he wants to be able to send his son to the colleges he can get into

views against segregation were largely motivated by jealousy, and i dont think that they were wrong to be jealous, or wrong in their logic.

problem for HHR he feels the value of the merchant lifestyle outstrips the value of the adventurer lifestyle.

So first you have to ask yourself
is this true?
then you have to ask
should it be this way?
then you have to ask
If it shouldnt be this way, how can i change
if it should be this way, then dunno what to tell him.

i wont get into my opinion on the matter, though people can probably guess from my other posts

Wow, I really wished all people would put so much effort in thinking about something first before posting. That’s not to say that I am succefully doing so every time.

shion.2084:

It goes back to my original question about what defines a flipper I suppose. So someone who will hold on for a month is not a “flipper” then I take it. My game lingo is poor

Flippers utilize a quick turnaround for a smaller but more consistent profit. Speculators hold on to an item until demand spikes and tries to sell at the right moment to capture the largest possible profit.

For example, as a flipper I put in buy orders for rubies on Saturday morning for 5s and sell them Saturday afternoon for 7s. I make a profit of a little more than 1s each, but things move quickly on the weekends so I get my money back plus about 25% and can do it again Sunday.

Speculators hear a rumor that they’re expanding jewelcrafting to 500 next month, so he starts buying up as many rubies as he can at the lowest price he can get. He stockpiles them until the jc expansion is announced, then dumps them immediately as everyone starts stocking up on crafting materials and the price jumps to 20s each. He makes almost 400% profit but it took several months to get it, while the flipper makes 10% or 20% every day.

Note that this is the best case scenario, and results are not guaranteed. Look at unidentified dyes, for example, a lot of people bought them too high and got burned while some people sold their free dyes at the peak and made hundreds of gold for nothing.

Working the TP is as much an art as a science. It’s not as easy as buy it, sell it, count your money.

Wanze.8410:

shion.2084:

What if the sellers complaint is that he would prefer a game where he wasn’t forced to behave like them in order to make use of the market feature of the game?

Then we wouldnt have to complain in GW2 because he is not forced to behave like them as the has the choice to sell and buy directly.

Awesome, isnt it?

you are forced to do the most effecient gold activities, if you want to get them in a timely fashion.

phys.7689:

problem for HHR he feels the value of the merchant lifestyle outstrips the value of the adventurer lifestyle.

So first you have to ask yourself
is this true?
then you have to ask
should it be this way?
then you have to ask
If it shouldnt be this way, how can i change
if it should be this way, then dunno what to tell him.

i wont get into my opinion on the matter, though people can probably guess from my other posts

Is this true? No. Playing the TP is a valid way to play the game.
Should it be this way? Yes. The mechanics allow for it to be done. The API for the TP was released for this very purpose. Even in RL making smart investments, buying and selling stcok etc. is the BEST way to get “rich quick”.

Just because one person has a different perspective on an issue doesnt mean that that is the truth. It just means that that persons perceptive is flawed to what is widely accepted as truth. There is only one version of truth. Period. The world is round, but our perspective is that its flat. That doesn’t change the fact that the world is indeed round.

phys.7689:

you are forced to do the most effecient gold activities, if you want to get them in a timely fashion.

Playing the TP involves patience. If you want something to happen fastest, it’s going to require a limited selection of choices. For instance placing a buy order for Dusk at 600 gold is going to take longer than buying from a sell listing for 1000 gold. You’re saving time by spending more money.

This doesn’t bother me, because it’s a game and I don’t feel the need to be the first to get the new shiny. I play the way I want to play and don’t worry about what others are doing.

tolunart.2095:

phys.7689:

you are forced to do the most effecient gold activities, if you want to get them in a timely fashion.

Playing the TP involves patience. If you want something to happen fastest, it’s going to require a limited selection of choices. For instance placing a buy order for Dusk at 600 gold is going to take longer than buying from a sell listing for 1000 gold. You’re saving time by spending more money.

it requires less patience in terms of profit over time. Ie, you have a much higher ceiling in terms of profit for skilled play in TP versus skilled play in PVP, or skilled play in PVE.

“Wow, I really wished all people would put so much effort in thinking about something first before posting. That’s not to say that I am succefully doing so every time.”

Just how are these “thoughtless” posts. You stated the reason you want to stop TP flipping is because you dont like other people having more money than you by playing a different way.. The only logical conclusion is out of a sense of jealousy. Unless your dislike of people having more than you by flipping is born by something else, the only logical conclusion is that you are jealous. If it is because of another reason, please fill us in so the discussion can continue.

phys.7689:

it requires less patience in terms of profit over time. Ie, you have a much higher ceiling in terms of profit for skilled play in TP versus skilled play in PVP, or skilled play in PVE.

When playing the TP you don’t get loot drops, karma, AP, social interaction or anything else that the rest of the game offers. It’s simply a means to an end, the TP was set up to make it easier to trade items between players than it was in the original GW (spamadon) and it does its job very well.

It’s a legitimate part of the game, was created to be part of the game and is working as intended. None of your kitten-throwing is going to change any of that. Frankly, this song is getting a bit old, it’s time to change discs.

The last half is a bit out of context since I pulled this from an 11 month old thread.

John Smith.4610:

This is a great thread.

A few minor thoughts:
The TP is part of the world of Tyria and spending your time interacting with it is just as legitimate a play session as dungeons or jumping puzzles or any of our other fantastic content.

That being said, I see no evidence academically, theoretically or in practice that flipping items on the TP doesn’t push prices closer to equilibrium, eliminate dead weight loss and increase utility/surplus for the market on both the consumer and producer side.

I currently have no plans to limit players interaction with the TP in the world of Tyria in anyway. I believe it would be damaging to the economy, to the game experience and to the players overall.

That being said, if you have a dissenting opinion please discuss it here and voice your beliefs and concerns, we’re always watching and reading and learning and your input has been both intelligent and extremely valuable in the past.

edit: Edited because Juno makes a valid point.

pdavis.8031:

phys.7689:

problem for HHR he feels the value of the merchant lifestyle outstrips the value of the adventurer lifestyle.

So first you have to ask yourself
is this true?
then you have to ask
should it be this way?
then you have to ask
If it shouldnt be this way, how can i change
if it should be this way, then dunno what to tell him.

i wont get into my opinion on the matter, though people can probably guess from my other posts

Is this true? No. Playing the TP is a valid way to play the game.
Should it be this way? Yes. The mechanics allow for it to be done. The API for the TP was released for this very purpose. Even in RL making smart investments, buying and selling stcok etc. is the BEST way to get “rich quick”.

Just because one person has a different perspective on an issue doesnt mean that that is the truth. It just means that that persons perceptive is flawed to what is widely accepted as truth. There is only one version of truth. Period. The world is round, but our perspective is that its flat. That doesn’t change the fact that the world is indeed round.

So how does an adventurer playstyle out-value merchant playstyle as phys put it?
And just because it can be done in the real word doesn’t mean it should be done in game. Neither is the “mainstream” opinion always the right one. And by the way, if you’re 2m above sea level, you can see 5,05 km wide until the earth’s curvature blocks your vision. So the world isn’t as flat as you may think it is.
And just because the “mechanics allow that” doesn’t mean its untouchable or unquestionable. ANet has stopped the champtrain because too many people had made too much gold with it. The traidingpost flipping is the same, just with less people who make more gold.

Ayrilana.1396:

The last half is a bit out of context since I pulled this from an 11 month old thread.

John Smith.4610:

This is a great thread.

A few minor thoughts:
The TP is part of the world of Tyria and spending your time interacting with it is just as legitimate a play session as dungeons or jumping puzzles or any of our other fantastic content.

That being said, I see no evidence academically, theoretically or in practice that flipping items on the TP doesn’t push prices closer to equilibrium, eliminate dead weight loss and increase utility/surplus for the market on both the consumer and producer side.

I currently have no plans to limit players interaction with the TP in the world of Tyria in anyway. I believe it would be damaging to the economy, to the game experience and to the players overall.

That being said, if you have a dissenting opinion please discuss it here and voice your beliefs and concerns, we’re always watching and reading and learning and your input has been both intelligent and extremely valuable in the past.

edit: Edited because Juno makes a valid point.

I think you just won the internet….