Guild Wars 2

Seriously, if I’m able to spend actual tender on these intangible “gems” then I should also be able to barter back and trade said “gems” for actual tender. Currently, 1.25 gems are worth one cent (U.S.); that is a very real and workable conversion rate. When I buy gems (and I’ve only done it once or twice, for character slots), I am not buying a good or a service; I am converting a currency. Gems can be converted to gold (and vice versa), why can’t gems be converted to real money?

Now, I realize that if this was an option, then potentially, Anet would be paying its customers, yada yada. But, how often does a player actually gather enough gems outside of converting them (from RL money) that this would be a serious concern?
Also, if there were more things in the store worth buying then Anet could make a profit from interested customers.

How about no. 15char

You can.. Gems can be moved to gold…

That raises a lot of sticky issues regarding international taxation. It’s probably more hassle than ANet needs at this point right now.

Lysico.4906:

You can.. Gems can be moved to gold…

OP means convert gold > gems > real money

Then people could actually make a living off this game. There’s already power traders that have thousands of gold.

Also, some people already do this, they’re called gold sellers. The gold selling companies have bots that farm gold, which the company then uses to manipulate the market and invest (such as at the beginning of the game when precursors were <100g) and then sells gold and items to players. OFC, this is all against TOS but it still happens.

Flyfunner.2093:

Then people could actually make a living off this game. There’s already power traders that have thousands of gold.

Also, some people already do this, they’re called gold sellers. The gold selling companies have bots that farm gold, which the company then uses to manipulate the market and invest (such as at the beginning of the game when precursors were <100g) and then sells gold and items to players. OFC, this is all against TOS but it still happens.

Which is part of why I think Anet’s endorsing selling in-game currency for real money only legitimize the issue of gold-selling. They have effectively legalized the process, but only for themselves. The problem with the effect that has on the economy is that you can’t easily trace where all of the gold and gems are coming from or going to, so “illegal” gold-sellers are hard to pinpoint and remove.

But that’s another issue.

I think the gem store would be much improved if there was no conversion at all, rather than just from gems to gold (and back) or money to gems (but yet not back). It affects the prices of gold more than anything because it is the most abundant and easily obtainable (debatable) of the three.

MethodicMockingbird.6520:

Flyfunner.2093:

Then people could actually make a living off this game. There’s already power traders that have thousands of gold.

Also, some people already do this, they’re called gold sellers. The gold selling companies have bots that farm gold, which the company then uses to manipulate the market and invest (such as at the beginning of the game when precursors were <100g) and then sells gold and items to players. OFC, this is all against TOS but it still happens.

Which is part of why I think Anet’s endorsing selling in-game currency for real money only legitimize the issue of gold-selling. They have effectively legalized the process, but only for themselves. The problem with the effect that has on the economy is that you can’t easily trace where all of the gold and gems are coming from or going to, so “illegal” gold-sellers are hard to pinpoint and remove.

But that’s another issue.

I think the gem store would be much improved if there was no conversion at all, rather than just from gems to gold (and back) or money to gems (but yet not back). It affects the prices of gold more than anything because it is the most abundant and easily obtainable (debatable) of the three.

Actually, through data mining, all they would have to do is see who is sending out large amounts of gold through mail (100g+) and then have someone employees manually check each account for bot activity. Also, it does help ANet, since there’s a 30% conversion rate meaning when you trade gems back to gold, you loose some gold. They do this because it’s the only way they make money right now (besides selling a few new copies and expansions in the future). Also, if you were to buy gold through 3rd party sellers, money would be the easiest to obtain out of the 3 (gems,gold, money) since a minimum paying job (8$ would buy you around 20g) which you cannot farm in an hour. All ANet really has to do is stop gold sellers and they’ll be rolling in dough.

Flyfunner.2093:

MethodicMockingbird.6520:

Flyfunner.2093:

Then people could actually make a living off this game. There’s already power traders that have thousands of gold.

Also, some people already do this, they’re called gold sellers. The gold selling companies have bots that farm gold, which the company then uses to manipulate the market and invest (such as at the beginning of the game when precursors were <100g) and then sells gold and items to players. OFC, this is all against TOS but it still happens.

Which is part of why I think Anet’s endorsing selling in-game currency for real money only legitimize the issue of gold-selling. They have effectively legalized the process, but only for themselves. The problem with the effect that has on the economy is that you can’t easily trace where all of the gold and gems are coming from or going to, so “illegal” gold-sellers are hard to pinpoint and remove.

But that’s another issue.

I think the gem store would be much improved if there was no conversion at all, rather than just from gems to gold (and back) or money to gems (but yet not back). It affects the prices of gold more than anything because it is the most abundant and easily obtainable (debatable) of the three.

Actually, through data mining, all they would have to do is see who is sending out large amounts of gold through mail (100g+) and then have someone employees manually check each account for bot activity. Also, it does help ANet, since there’s a 30% conversion rate meaning when you trade gems back to gold, you loose some gold. They do this because it’s the only way they make money right now (besides selling a few new copies and expansions in the future). Also, if you were to buy gold through 3rd party sellers, money would be the easiest to obtain out of the 3 (gems,gold, money) since a minimum paying job (8$ would buy you around 20g) which you cannot farm in an hour. All ANet really has to do is stop gold sellers and they’ll be rolling in dough.

I think they’re already rolling in dough, as evidenced by the fact that they’re running an F2P game with a $60.00 pricetag and still have a large playerbase.

And while I realize the conversion rate from gold to gems is staggered to give the company more profit, my original point was that there is no way to convert back to real money. If there was anywhere to put a “tax” on converting currencies it would be there, so that players would be less inclined to affect their game status with RL status (or, really, vice versa). But really there shouldn’t be a tax at all, for any conversions.

I don’t understand what you’re trying to argue. You said yourself, the conversion tax (30%) is to give them a profit. Every gold sink is aimed at giving ANet a profit. Since it’s a f2p game, they rely on their gem store. That’s why gold sinks exist, to remove gold from the game so you have to buy gems to either get the skins/dyes you want, or to get in game gold. 15% tp tax, t3 cultural armor, legendaries, ascended, named exotic weapons (such as weapons of the mists) all exist as gold sinks since gold is inifinite in the game.

Perhaps I’m not being clear.

Gold in the game is not infinite; it may seem infinite, and there may be a very large amount of it, but it is still subject to things like inflation and change in elasticity.

Gems are subject to this too as they are a currency, and RL money as well. However, one of the easiest ways for a player to acquire gems currently is to purchase them with another currency (either money or gold). When purchased with gold, the buyer can exchange their currencies back and forth (albeit at diminishing returns for Anet’s profit). However, when purchasing these gems with money you cannont transfer them back to actual tender again.

The exchange (buying gems with RL money) functions like a currency conversion without really being one, and it imbalances the in-game economy.

It doesn’t imbalance the in game economy. Buying gems with real money puts money in the dev’s pockets, and introduces more gold. This lowers the value of gold. Then when people buy gems with gold to buy skins and the like, this takes gold out of the economy and raises it’s value/buying power. Also, gold is infinite, you can sell items to NPCs for gold. Also, adding in an option to turn gems into legal tender would have no benefit to the devs, it would only make it more profitable to be a gold seller (against TOS)

Flyfunner.2093:

It doesn’t imbalance the in game economy. Buying gems with real money puts money in the dev’s pockets, and introduces more gold. This lowers the value of gold. Then when people buy gems with gold to buy skins and the like, this takes gold out of the economy and raises it’s value/buying power. Also, gold is infinite, you can sell items to NPCs for gold. Also, adding in an option to turn gems into legal tender would have no benefit to the devs, it would only make it more profitable to be a gold seller (against TOS)

First, it only introduces more gold if people are exchanging those purchased gems into gold.
Second, it may take gold out of the economy, but only temporarily and only on a very miniscule scale. If gold was really as infinite as you claim it to be, and not affected by supply and demand, then that might be true. But the amount of gold in the economy is finite; its supply is infinite and demand is infinite due to fluctuations in the amount present (things that you mentioned, like buying gems, or when gold drops from a mob kill).

If the devs did add in the option it may not be directly beneficial to them, but it would encourage those with more gold than brains to play the game longer and buy the goods in the gem store.

MethodicMockingbird.6520:

When I buy gems (and I’ve only done it once or twice, for character slots), I am not buying a good or a service; I am converting a currency.

Wrong. You are buying a service – tokens for virtual items to enhance your game experience. If gems were a currency… and could be exchanged for gold… and gold is earned from random drops in the game world… then the logical legal conclusion would be that ArenaNet are running a casino, which opens up a whole world of pain from lawyers and tax accountants. Nobody is going to want to go there.

For this you would need player-based RMT. There’s no way Anet is going to pay people RM for gems.

Its pretty much spelled out in the legal agreement you accepted when you activated your account.

Basically, gems have no real world value, as such cannot be traded for real world money.

Tremayne.6734:

MethodicMockingbird.6520:

When I buy gems (and I’ve only done it once or twice, for character slots), I am not buying a good or a service; I am converting a currency.

Wrong. You are buying a service – tokens for virtual items to enhance your game experience. If gems were a currency… and could be exchanged for gold… and gold is earned from random drops in the game world… then the logical legal conclusion would be that ArenaNet are running a casino, which opens up a whole world of pain from lawyers and tax accountants. Nobody is going to want to go there.

This. You are buying tokens to get items, just like if you are at a game arcade and you put RL money in and gets tickets out which you can exchange for items at the shop. No way in hell they would trade you those tickets back for real money.

If you want to make money selling gold without getting into trouble consider joining Anet. They are constantly thinking up new ways to nerf drop rates and make your gameplay les and less rewarding driving you towards the gem shop.

If gems had an actual value and if they were still considered your property, ArenaNet would probably need a banking license in many countries. In addition, the various RNG items in the gem shop might be considered gambling, requiring a casino license (or just outright illegal in some countries).

Finally they would open themselves up to lawsuits if hackers ever breach their security and make off with all the loot. They’d be insane to even consider all that.

The only option is a marketplace where one player can sell items or gold to another player for real money, while still putting in the EULA that all items are property of the game publisher and only a “right to use” embodied by the virtual item is traded.

You’d have to check the EVE Online or Diablo 3 auction houses license agreements to see in more detail how something like that is structured.

There’s also the taxation issues. All non-charity based income are taxable. ArenaNet would have to issue you a 10-99 form for you and the US government and that would require a ton of man power and pain in the butt. http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-1099-form.htm

How bout hell no?

I think I remember an MMO called project entropia that allowed ingame currency to be exchanged for money.

We have enough bots in the world already, giving them a way to farm real cash is a terrible idea.