Guild Wars 2

Essence Snow.3194:

The problem with “fair” prices on limited quantity items is that they are only “fair” to certain players……ie those with highest profit potentials (tp traders + atm champ grinders). For the rest of the player base that does not participate in one of those avenues the prices maintained by those are not possible.

You can, if you so choose, buy up the overpriced goods and resell them at lower prices, if that makes you think you are making the price more ‘fair’. Better for everyone would be if you find supplies that are underpriced and order them at slightly higher prices (loot bags and salvageables are the spot, I think). Find products where the prices are over the top and supply them at slightly lower prices. Be brazen: under-cut that seller. Be bold: offer more than the highest buyer. And don’t whine: we all have the same economy to work within. Nobody gets special treatment. In that sense, the economy is fair. The BLTC doesn’t exclusively buy its widgets from me. You are perfectly free to sell your widgets to them, or to buy out my widget supply and list them at higher prices. If you want an unfair economy, then demand that ANet supply everyone with one of that item. Demand that everyone get their choice of precursor, or their choice of T6 Mats. Or demand that other players in the market be punished for the high crime of ‘buying something cheap and selling at a higher price’. Demand that you get one of the only 200 issued in game items, despite your not having done half the work of others in the game that also want it. Demand all you want, but realize that when you chose how you play, you also decide what your opportunities are. If you don’t like your available opportunities, then change how you play. Don’t whine.

Me, I’ll watch that my tiny corner of the market doesn’t go stagnant.

Yamagawa.5941:

Essence Snow.3194:

The problem with “fair” prices on limited quantity items is that they are only “fair” to certain players……ie those with highest profit potentials (tp traders + atm champ grinders). For the rest of the player base that does not participate in one of those avenues the prices maintained by those are not possible.

You can, if you so choose, buy up the overpriced goods and resell them at lower prices, if that makes you think you are making the price more ‘fair’. Better for everyone would be if you find supplies that are underpriced and order them at slightly higher prices (loot bags and salvageables are the spot, I think). Find products where the prices are over the top and supply them at slightly lower prices. Be brazen: under-cut that seller. Be bold: offer more than the highest buyer. And don’t whine: we all have the same economy to work within. Nobody gets special treatment. In that sense, the economy is fair. The BLTC doesn’t exclusively buy its widgets from me. You are perfectly free to sell your widgets to them, or to buy out my widget supply and list them at higher prices. If you want an unfair economy, then demand that ANet supply everyone with one of that item. Demand that everyone get their choice of precursor, or their choice of T6 Mats. Or demand that other players in the market be punished for the high crime of ‘buying something cheap and selling at a higher price’. Demand that you get one of the only 200 issued in game items, despite your not having done half the work of others in the game that also want it. Demand all you want, but realize that when you chose how you play, you also decide what your opportunities are. If you don’t like your available opportunities, then change how you play. Don’t whine.

Me, I’ll watch that my tiny corner of the market doesn’t go stagnant.

Traders do get special treatment as they have the only unregulated method of obtaining wealth in the game, thus it’s why the profit potential from it is leaps and bounds above everything else.

It’s a legitimate concern..not a whine there is a difference even though it might be hard for some to discern.

Essence Snow.3194:

Yamagawa.5941:

Essence Snow.3194:

The problem with “fair” prices on limited quantity items is that they are only “fair” to certain players……ie those with highest profit potentials (tp traders + atm champ grinders). For the rest of the player base that does not participate in one of those avenues the prices maintained by those are not possible.

You can, if you so choose, buy up the overpriced goods and resell them at lower prices, if that makes you think you are making the price more ‘fair’. Better for everyone would be if you find supplies that are underpriced and order them at slightly higher prices (loot bags and salvageables are the spot, I think). Find products where the prices are over the top and supply them at slightly lower prices. Be brazen: under-cut that seller. Be bold: offer more than the highest buyer. And don’t whine: we all have the same economy to work within. Nobody gets special treatment. In that sense, the economy is fair. The BLTC doesn’t exclusively buy its widgets from me. You are perfectly free to sell your widgets to them, or to buy out my widget supply and list them at higher prices. If you want an unfair economy, then demand that ANet supply everyone with one of that item. Demand that everyone get their choice of precursor, or their choice of T6 Mats. Or demand that other players in the market be punished for the high crime of ‘buying something cheap and selling at a higher price’. Demand that you get one of the only 200 issued in game items, despite your not having done half the work of others in the game that also want it. Demand all you want, but realize that when you chose how you play, you also decide what your opportunities are. If you don’t like your available opportunities, then change how you play. Don’t whine.

Me, I’ll watch that my tiny corner of the market doesn’t go stagnant.

Traders do get special treatment as they have the only unregulated method of obtaining wealth in the game, thus it’s why the profit potential from it is leaps and bounds above everything else.

It’s a legitimate concern..not a whine there is a difference even though it might be hard for some to discern.

You do know that a very small portion of the game population are active traders, and even a very smaller portion actually make a ton of gold? If everyone were a sensibile trader there would be no profit.

You may think being a trader is all gold and roses but you can lose as much as you gain.

Again, it is not a concern because it’s an isolated, limited case and it’s not harmful to the game.

Vol.5241:

Essence Snow.3194:

… snip …

You do know that a very small portion of the game population are active traders, and even a very smaller portion actually make a ton of gold? If everyone were a sensibile trader there would be no profit.

You may think being a trader is all gold and roses but you can lose as much as you gain.

Again, it is not a concern because it’s an isolated, limited case and it’s not harmful to the game.

Without data it is impossible to say exactly what portion of the GW2 population are active traders. So it’s a bit presumptuous to call it an “isolated, limited case… not harmful to the game.”

Although I do love your “if everyone were a sensible trader” statement — the game needs bad traders to fuel any profits lol.

EDIT: I can’t believe there was no love for my spicy veggie chili market velocity crack.

juno.1840:

Vol.5241:

Essence Snow.3194:

… snip …

You do know that a very small portion of the game population are active traders, and even a very smaller portion actually make a ton of gold? If everyone were a sensibile trader there would be no profit.

You may think being a trader is all gold and roses but you can lose as much as you gain.

Again, it is not a concern because it’s an isolated, limited case and it’s not harmful to the game.

Without data it is impossible to say exactly what portion of the GW2 population are active traders. So it’s a bit presumptuous to call it an “isolated, limited case… not harmful to the game.”

Although I do love your “if everyone were a sensible trader” statement — the game needs bad traders to fuel any profits lol.

Of course we need the hard data but it’s easy to look at the type of style of play and infer from that.

This is an MMO, not a trading simulation. I very much doubt over 10% of the playerbase finds it interesting and worthwhile enough to keep spreadsheets of prices/formulas/forecasts/trends. Not to mention spend hours upon hours sitting infront of the TP conducting transactions.

I believe bad traders don’t fuel profits, at least they would contribute very little as a whole. Traders profit off of market inefficiencies and the laziness of players, not because they made poor decisions and underestimated the value of an item. They take advantage of people who want gold now rather than waiting and selling it at a higher price. They take advantage of people who would prefer to sell to buy orders than list. (And by taking advantage, I don’t mean that as a negative thing)

BTW by traders I’m talking about power traders who make a ton of gold off buying/selling bulk orders, often making a few copper/silver in profit per item. Speculators are an entirely different group.

I see many people in my own guild who use sell at the highest “buy order” mostly because they don’t know any better (i.e. are confused by the GUI, or don’t understand the trade mechanics). In some ways the system is fueled by ignorance. Hell many don’t understand there are two fees (5% and 10%) which come off your total sale.

With a little effort, ANet could improve the GUI to help protect the financially challenged, although you can only do so much for those who chose not to learn what’s going on.

Essence Snow.3194:

As an example wvw player who plays 2 times as much as a trader or a champ grinder does not have a chance at such things unless they get an extremely lucky drop. Entitlement for them…you betcha. There is no balance in effort/time spent/reward in this game atm thus the entitlement justification does not fly.

Nothing in the game is really required so that as well does not fly as justification.

Here’s where the problems are with your thinking:

1) WvW player has the same, equal chances to get a rare drop as a trader does in WvW/PvE. So if a WvW player plays 2x as much as a trader in WvW/PvE, they have 2x more chances to get a rare drop. So in essence, you should be saying it unfair to the trader, since he doesn’t play as much.

2) You say it is entitlement, then you go on to say that I can’t use that as a basis for my argument? Not sure how to respond to that.

3) There is balance in this game. It’s called RNG. Everyone’s base chance to get something is exactly the same. If someone spends time to increase their Magic Find with Luck, then their chances are augmented by said Magic Find. If I have 300% MF, and you have 0%, that means I have 3x more chances to get a rare drop than you. That’s pretty fair, as I spent the time to buff my MF. If you don’t like it, then you have the option to spend time to get Luck as well. Nothing prevents you from having the same stats as me.

Traders are still players. They just approach money making from a different angle. If they can make money off of others, then their skill at such gameplay isn’t “unfair”. They make the choice to sacrifice their chances to get rare drops from enemies by playing the TP.

A rich player can afford to buy a luxury item, and another player without money can’t afford to do the same, that’s how life works. Complaining about this is akin to saying “Why does the President get to live in the White House, and I can’t?”

Vol.5241:

Essence Snow.3194:

Yamagawa.5941:

Essence Snow.3194:

The problem with “fair” prices on limited quantity items is that they are only “fair” to certain players……ie those with highest profit potentials (tp traders + atm champ grinders). For the rest of the player base that does not participate in one of those avenues the prices maintained by those are not possible.

You can, if you so choose, buy up the overpriced goods and resell them at lower prices, if that makes you think you are making the price more ‘fair’. Better for everyone would be if you find supplies that are underpriced and order them at slightly higher prices (loot bags and salvageables are the spot, I think). Find products where the prices are over the top and supply them at slightly lower prices. Be brazen: under-cut that seller. Be bold: offer more than the highest buyer. And don’t whine: we all have the same economy to work within. Nobody gets special treatment. In that sense, the economy is fair. The BLTC doesn’t exclusively buy its widgets from me. You are perfectly free to sell your widgets to them, or to buy out my widget supply and list them at higher prices. If you want an unfair economy, then demand that ANet supply everyone with one of that item. Demand that everyone get their choice of precursor, or their choice of T6 Mats. Or demand that other players in the market be punished for the high crime of ‘buying something cheap and selling at a higher price’. Demand that you get one of the only 200 issued in game items, despite your not having done half the work of others in the game that also want it. Demand all you want, but realize that when you chose how you play, you also decide what your opportunities are. If you don’t like your available opportunities, then change how you play. Don’t whine.

Me, I’ll watch that my tiny corner of the market doesn’t go stagnant.

Traders do get special treatment as they have the only unregulated method of obtaining wealth in the game, thus it’s why the profit potential from it is leaps and bounds above everything else.

It’s a legitimate concern..not a whine there is a difference even though it might be hard for some to discern.

You do know that a very small portion of the game population are active traders, and even a very smaller portion actually make a ton of gold? If everyone were a sensibile trader there would be no profit.

You may think being a trader is all gold and roses but you can lose as much as you gain.

Again, it is not a concern because it’s an isolated, limited case and it’s not harmful to the game.

As long as there are enough of them to sustain demand above supply (extremely probable with low supply items) they will dictate pricing. Everyone else will not figure into the equation and have no bearing on pricing. Thus it creates a disparity….it’s not that hard to understand really.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Essence Snow.3194:

As an example wvw player who plays 2 times as much as a trader or a champ grinder does not have a chance at such things unless they get an extremely lucky drop. Entitlement for them…you betcha. There is no balance in effort/time spent/reward in this game atm thus the entitlement justification does not fly.

Nothing in the game is really required so that as well does not fly as justification.

Here’s where the problems are with your thinking:

1) WvW player has the same, equal chances to get a rare drop as a trader does in WvW/PvE. So if a WvW player plays 2x as much as a trader in WvW/PvE, they have 2x more chances to get a rare drop. So in essence, you should be saying it unfair to the trader, since he doesn’t play as much.

2) You say it is entitlement, then you go on to say that I can’t use that as a basis for my argument? Not sure how to respond to that.

3) There is balance in this game. It’s called RNG. Everyone’s base chance to get something is exactly the same. If someone spends time to increase their Magic Find with Luck, then their chances are augmented by said Magic Find. If I have 300% MF, and you have 0%, that means I have 3x more chances to get a rare drop than you. That’s pretty fair, as I spent the time to buff my MF. If you don’t like it, then you have the option to spend time to get Luck as well. Nothing prevents you from having the same stats as me.

---

Traders are still players. They just approach money making from a different angle. If they can make money off of others, then their skill at such gameplay isn’t “unfair”. They make the choice to sacrifice their chances to get rare drops from enemies by playing the TP.

A rich player can afford to buy a luxury item, and another player without money can’t afford to do the same, that’s how life works. Complaining about this is akin to saying “Why does the President get to live in the White House, and I can’t?”

Your smarter than that……..please think about it. If you cannot see why this is may be an issue, well then there is no point in responding to you any further.

I’m a trader that works in a narrow, very profitable segment of the market with a low entry bar. It’s got limits to what I can make from it, but I’m ok with that.

I step away from the game for 3 months, and the narrow segment of the market has gone stagnant. Margins drifted from the high velocity 20-30% to far higher stagnant values. Suppliers have vanished. Demand… Well, that’s still there that I can see, but I’ll be weeks bumping up supply prices enough to get people to supply things in proper quantity. I’ve already dropped 200g back into the market, not to conduct any sales or purchases, but for the express purpose of raising prices so that people consider selling things to the market instead of just banking them or feeding them to merchants.

I’d expected some greedy merchant to step in when I stepped away. I’d even pointed several peeps at my corner of the market, but its plain that hadn’t happened.

This game does need more traders in more segments of its economy. The money is there to be made. Please, someone, make it.

//Portable Corpse
Author of Torrenal’s GW2 Crafting Gadget at gw2gadget.com
You can also get crafting infos at gw2spidy.com and other points online.

Essence Snow.3194:

Your smarter than that……..please think about it. If you cannot see why this is may be an issue, well then there is no point in responding to you any further.

There is no issue. If you want a particular rare item, make an effort to get it. By asking for a short cut or handout for that item, you’ve already lost the argument.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Essence Snow.3194:

Your smarter than that……..please think about it. If you cannot see why this is may be an issue, well then there is no point in responding to you any further.

There is no issue. If you want a particular rare item, make an effort to get it. By asking for a short cut or handout for that item, you’ve already lost the argument.

Trading is the shortcut……btw this is not about winning or losing an argument, it is about awareness that something exists that has a greater negative effect on the game than positive effect. If the only reason you posting is to win an argument then it’s pretty obvious reason will not have any bearing.

Essence Snow.3194:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Essence Snow.3194:

Your smarter than that……..please think about it. If you cannot see why this is may be an issue, well then there is no point in responding to you any further.

There is no issue. If you want a particular rare item, make an effort to get it. By asking for a short cut or handout for that item, you’ve already lost the argument.

Trading is the shortcut……btw this is not about winning or losing an argument, it is about awareness that something exists that has a greater negative effect on the game than positive effect. If the only reason you posting is to win an argument then it’s pretty obvious reason will not have any bearing.

Trading is not a shortcut. It’s another way to play this game. TP players put in a different type of effort and time to make money. Spending hours in front of a Black Lion Trading Co. rep is still hours of playing this game. If you can’t understand or accept this fact, then you should just stick to farming mobs and ignore the Trading Post altogether. I’ll make money my way, and you make money your way. Everyone is happy at that point.

If it was balanced then it wouldn’t be an issue<————————this is not hard to understand

If champ trains offered the possiblity 100x the amount the most trading could…then that would be an issue.

It doesn’t matter what the method is…what matters is the unbalance.

Essence Snow.3194:

If it was balanced then it wouldn’t be an issue<————————this is not hard to understand

If champ trains offered the possiblity 100x the amount the most trading could…then that would be an issue.

It doesn’t matter what the method is…what matters is the unbalance.

What’s unbalanced? Trading does not guarantee money, just as farming Champs does not guarantee a Precursor.

The ability to make gold to which this game relies on so heavily.

It is much like one profession being leaps and bound better than all the rest….unbalanced. Ofc there are always going to be some that are a bit better, but when one is far better then it causes issues.

What benefit does having such an imbalance provide as to keep it as such?

Essence Snow.3194:

The ability to make gold to which this game relies on so heavily.

It is much like one profession being leaps and bound better than all the rest….unbalanced. Ofc there are always going to be some that are a bit better, but when one is far better then it causes issues.

What benefit does having such an imbalance provide as to keep it as such?

I’m finally able to bring out the true basis of your argument: Skill

You’re upset that some TP Traders are good at what they do. Having the knowledge and experience to do something that’s profitable isn’t considered unfair. Just as an SPvP player who has the skills to beat his opponents over and over will have a higher rank. The end result for these two examples are one makes more money, and one makes more ranks.

What you’re suggesting, is that Anet put in place barriers because one player is more skilled than another at one aspect of the game. If that’s your sense of “fairness”, then you should be asking that the Open Market concept of the Black Lion Trading Post be eliminated from the game.

Essence Snow.3194:

The ability to make gold to which this game relies on so heavily.

It is much like one profession being leaps and bound better than all the rest….unbalanced. Ofc there are always going to be some that are a bit better, but when one is far better then it causes issues.

What benefit does having such an imbalance provide as to keep it as such?

I might have to agree with Vol on this — I’m not sure how much of an imbalance it is, or how pervasive the imbalance is (queue diatribe about having an economy report from ANet/John, but that’s a different topic).

Also there is work involved in making money on the TP — it’s true that those Players use money to make money but it’s not brainless by any stretch of the imagination. I think the TP can be a game-within-a-game, but that’s ok right?

As long as measures are in place to prevent abuse, then it should be a viable aspect to GW2 for both pleasure and revenue. Now about those measures…

juno.1840:

Also there is work involved in making money on the TP — it’s true that those Players use money to make money but it’s not brainless by any stretch of the imagination. I think the TP can be a game-within-a-game, but that’s ok right?

Entry bar to the market as of yesterday: 61 copper
By investing that amount, you could turn it around in a day at a profit of around 20 copper. You could of course invest 61 gold for a profit of 20 gold, but the bar is low.

My biggest complaint: crafting 20 stacks of planks takes quite some time.
I usually go AFK for those big crafts.
//Portable corpse

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Essence Snow.3194:

The ability to make gold to which this game relies on so heavily.

It is much like one profession being leaps and bound better than all the rest….unbalanced. Ofc there are always going to be some that are a bit better, but when one is far better then it causes issues.

What benefit does having such an imbalance provide as to keep it as such?

I’m finally able to bring out the true basis of your argument: Skill

You’re upset that some TP Traders are good at what they do. Having the knowledge and experience to do something that’s profitable isn’t considered unfair. Just as an SPvP player who has the skills to beat his opponents over and over will have a higher rank. The end result for these two examples are one makes more money, and one makes more ranks.

What you’re suggesting, is that Anet put in place barriers because one player is more skilled than another at one aspect of the game. If that’s your sense of “fairness”, then you should be asking that the Open Market concept of the Black Lion Trading Post be eliminated from the game.

All of the available 3rd party tools available alleviate the need for much skill while trading.

You spvp analogy would work if that player played on an unbalanced dominant profession.

What I am suggesting is that they balance (not completely, but at least in the same ball park) methods of obtaining gold……at least give methods similar treatment (every other method is regulated). If this game were not so heavily reliant on gold, again wouldn’t really be an issue, but alas it is.

There is a reason markets in rl are regulated. Why we don’t learn from that is a mystery to me.

Essence Snow.3194:

All of the available 3rd party tools available alleviate the need for much skill while trading.

You spvp analogy would work if that player played on an unbalanced dominant profession.

What I am suggesting is that they balance (not completely, but at least in the same ball park) methods of obtaining gold……at least give methods similar treatment (every other method is regulated). If this game were not so heavily reliant on gold, again wouldn’t really be an issue, but alas it is.

There is a reason markets in rl are regulated. Why we don’t learn from that is a mystery to me.

1) No profession is more dominant than another. You take any profession you deem to be overpowered, and I’ll tell you that there’s a counter to it. It’s all about “skill” level of the player using the profession. When new metas appear, new counters are formulated as well. If not, then that means the person using one particular meta would be undefeated for life.

2) You keep speaking of balance, yet don’t fully understand that it already exists. The game allows you to make Gold in different ways. Trading is one way. Playing WvW is another. So is Dungeon running. So is Fractal running. So is special event farming. So is Champ trains. If a player is not skilled enough to make efficient use of what’s available in game, that’s the individual player’s fault, not Anet’s.

3) This game is heavily reliant on Gold because you make it to be that way. Sure I may have a lot of Gold in my bank, but I barely touch it. Yesterday, I spent no more than 10 Silver, and that was only due to armor repairs from WvW losses. You can play this game and have fun, without spending a lot of money in the process.

Please don’t make the mistake in thinking that the ability to make money is a game problem. If the choices you make are poor, no game mechanic will help that, outside of asking for free stuff to compensate. Also, please remember that TP players are NOT guaranteed to make money. Just because you can read a website, that doesn’t automatically make you an expert investor.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Essence Snow.3194:

All of the available 3rd party tools available alleviate the need for much skill while trading.

You spvp analogy would work if that player played on an unbalanced dominant profession.

What I am suggesting is that they balance (not completely, but at least in the same ball park) methods of obtaining gold……at least give methods similar treatment (every other method is regulated). If this game were not so heavily reliant on gold, again wouldn’t really be an issue, but alas it is.

There is a reason markets in rl are regulated. Why we don’t learn from that is a mystery to me.

1) No profession is more dominant than another. You take any profession you deem to be overpowered, and I’ll tell you that there’s a counter to it. It’s all about “skill” level of the player using the profession. When new metas appear, new counters are formulated as well. If not, then that means the person using one particular meta would be undefeated for life.

2) You keep speaking of balance, yet don’t fully understand that it already exists. The game allows you to make Gold in different ways. Trading is one way. Playing WvW is another. So is Dungeon running. So is Fractal running. So is special event farming. So is Champ trains. If a player is not skilled enough to make efficient use of what’s available in game, that’s the individual player’s fault, not Anet’s.

3) This game is heavily reliant on Gold because you make it to be that way. Sure I may have a lot of Gold in my bank, but I barely touch it. Yesterday, I spent no more than 10 Silver, and that was only due to armor repairs from WvW losses. You can play this game and have fun, without spending a lot of money in the process.

Please don’t make the mistake in thinking that the ability to make money is a game problem. If the choices you make are poor, no game mechanic will help that, outside of asking for free stuff to compensate. Also, please remember that TP players are NOT guaranteed to make money. Just because you can read a website, that doesn’t automatically make you an expert investor.

1) The key word in the analogy was “IF”. “If” one profession was unbalanced it would create issues.

2)Every other method of obtaining gold in the game besides playing the tp (and rl cash into gold) has a limit. A limit to which it doesn’t matter how efficient one is at it. They will be unable to earn past a certain point based on measures put forth by the game. Playing the trading post has no such limits.

That is one of the reasons it is unbalanced. ~Limits vs No Limits~

3) Be realistic….gold has a major impact on the game.

Please realize that unbalanced aspects of the game are far reaching. If you are on the unbalanced side and profiting as such, obviously you wouldn’t want to give such a thing up. If it didn’t have effects on others it wouldn’t matter, but we are all tied together. It’s not just about the ability to make gold, but more so what effect that gold has after the fact on the game as a whole.

Essence Snow.3194:

1) The key word in the analogy was “IF”. “If” one profession was unbalanced it would create issues.

2)Every other method of obtaining gold in the game besides playing the tp (and rl cash into gold) has a limit. A limit to which it doesn’t matter how efficient one is at it. They will be unable to earn past a certain point based on measures put forth by the game. Playing the trading post has no such limits.

That is one of the reasons it is unbalanced. ~Limits vs No Limits~

3) Be realistic….gold has a major impact on the game.

Please realize that unbalanced aspects of the game are far reaching. If you are on the unbalanced side and profiting as such, obviously you wouldn’t want to give such a thing up. If it didn’t have effects on others it wouldn’t matter, but we are all tied together.

Let me address point #2 and #3, as the first one would belong in the SPvP forums.

There are limits to what a TP player can make. That limit is based on other players. If other players are unwilling to pay for my goods, I make no money. If other players undercut my goods, it can take longer to sell if I don’t repost and take a loss of the non-refundable posting fee.

Gold has a major impact… only when it’s needed. You want to buy 250 Silver Doubloons? Sure you’ll need lots of Gold. But if you just want to play the game to have fun, having 2 Gold is far more than enough to pay for WP costs and armor repairs.

Players make the choice on how they want to play the game. You made the choice that you need a lot of Gold to buy stuff, so I can’t fault you for that. I will, however, fault you if you say you’re entitled to the same amount of Gold that I have, when you won’t put forward the efforts I did to obtain it.

Balance by means of an individual’s skill will never exist. You take a pro gaming guild like War Machine [WM], and you pit them against a group of new players, and the result will always lean one way. Would you demand that Anet put in nerfs so that [WM] wouldn’t be so effective? No, you wouldn’t and shouldn’t. Just as you can’t ask Anet to nerf TP players simply because they know what they’re doing.

That limit is not enforced by the game the way it is set up. There is a difference.

Subjective

Not all prices are set by all players….we’ve covered this before.

This has next to nothing to do with individual skill. It has to do with how the game is set up. In your example if WM all played an unbalanced profession vs a team of randoms on every other profession, then it would work as an analogy.

You keep repeating the same analogies which are incorrect.

Essence Snow.3194:

That limit is not enforced by the game the way it is set up. There is a difference.

Subjective

Not all prices are set by all players….we’ve covered this before.

This has next to nothing to do with individual skill. It has to do with how the game is set up. In your example if WM all played an unbalanced profession vs a team of randoms on every other profession, then it would work as an analogy.

You keep repeating the same analogies which are incorrect.

You keep bringing up profession balance when that makes absolutely no sense. [WM] is a pro-gaming guild. Pro-gamers who have the potential to make more money in a year than the governor of my state. They’re good based on their skill level. The fact that you deny this invalidates your attempted points.

As for TP trading, it takes skill, know-how, and experience. If it didn’t, you’d be doing it too, and we wouldn’t be having this conversation about lack of opportunity to make money.

And… as you don’t seem to understand how the Trading Post works, players are the ones who determine prices. They post Buy Orders. They post goods as Sell Orders. Demand for specific items determine prices on the Open Market.

I think you’ll be able to bring more to this discussion once you have an understanding about the current market, and how things work. I firmly believe that all these misunderstandings between us are due to this.

Essence, if making money in the TP is so great, why don’t you try it?

The TP doesn’t scale well with the rest of the game content because the TP draws money from a cumulative pile of currency, whereas everything else works on finite sums. I expect that we’ll see a moderate level of inflation over time to keep things from getting out of hand, but something that doesn’t scale well isn’t inherently unbalanced.

You also keep speaking of trading like a profession. Like I can chose to be a ranger or a trader, but somehow not both. That’s such a poor way to be looking at things that I wonder if you are blind to the concepts we are dealing with in the game economy.

You also express that gold has an impact on the game.

Eh?

Oh, I suppose if I had none I’d have trouble fixing my armor or using waypoints… And I need a few gold if I’ve decided to buy exotic gear off the TP for use, but that’s a few quick dungeon runs and done. After that, what does gold get me?

Some big shiny legendary yawn… I’m sorry, where was I? Oh yes, those gaudy legendary things that work like normal exotic gear, but are so flashy in game as I won’t bother touching them. It’s a look, and many people seem to like the look, so its expensive. If you are so obsessed over having that look, good for you, go out there an earn it. Find out what you need and what it takes to get that, and I’m sure you’ll get it, but if you just hold your hand out and say ‘Mine! Gimme!’, people are going to laugh. PvP titles are earned in PvP. Dungeon gear is earned in dungeons. Karma is earned in events. Gaudy gear is earned either through great fortune, or earning it in the market place. Begging earns you scraps and glares.

In the end, its up to you to chose how you play the game, and that decision opens doors to some content, and closes doors to other content. No matter what decision you make, doors both open and close.

//Portable Corpse
Regardless of how big a door ‘infinite riches’ might seem, I’ve found better doors than that in the PvE world. Better than any I’ll ever find in PvP/WvW/trading. Oh, to be sure, doors much like it can be realized in the other settings, but I’m partial to the door I found, as it reflects on who I am far more than any mere item or title in the game ever will.

It makes sense b/c it is something the game bounds us by. It’s dependent on the game. That’s the bit you don’t seem to understand. I do not invalidate skill at all. You keep saying I am, but I am not concerned with it, only the mechanics of the game and the bounds in which they set.

The game sets no limits on the trading post. The game sets limits on all other methods of earning gold. What’s so hard to understand there?

Essence Snow.3194:

It makes sense b/c it is something the game bounds us by. It’s dependent on the game. That’s the bit you don’t seem to understand. I do not invalidate skill at all. You keep saying I am, but I am not concerned with it, only the mechanics of the game and the bounds in which they set.

The game sets no limits on the trading post. The game sets limits on all other methods of earning gold. What’s so hard to understand there?

It’s hard to understand, because your points are invalid. You can’t just wake up and decide to be a TP player. You work at it, learn how to do it, and apply the knowledge. Just like PvPing. It’s takes skill. And not the type of skill where you press a button and it activates. I’m talking “skill” as in applying knowledge and experience.

And as for limits. Because you don’t understand how the Trading Post works, it’s hard to describe to you that there are, in fact, limits. I’ll try my best one more time:

Money on the Black Lion Trading Post is finite. Meaning, there’s a set amount available, which is the banks of the players who are willing to make transactions. Profit making potential is determined by the item, the Demand for said item, Supply or rarity of said item, the willingness of the players to purchase said item, and the competition of other TP players.

There isn’t one magical player who controls all goods and prices. The Trading Post is in fact a real time, dynamic tool that all players game wide can use.

There are limits yes, but not ones put in place by the game. How many times do I need to repeat this? There is nothing invalid about that.

That is the difference…..the game itself makes it unbalanced…not the players.

Essence Snow.3194:

There are limits yes, but not ones put in place by the game. How many times do I need to repeat this? There is nothing invalid about that.

That is the difference…..the game itself makes it unbalanced…not the players.

We’re making progress. You finally admit limits exist. Now if you would only understand that you’re advocating for the game to put artificial barriers to TP players’ skills in trading. That’s not asking for the game to be balanced. That’s wanting what I have worked hard to get, but not wanting to put forth the same efforts to get it.

Oh you mean like those put in place for all other methods of gold acquisition?

I can push the ‘magic money button’ on the TP. Lets say its the conversion of skill into to gold. Perhaps it gets me 8g a skill point. The harder I push it, the more gold I get, but I may only get 3g a skill point if I convert 300 points all at once, whereas if I convert one skill point a day, I might realize that 8g. By buying the supplies, I drive the cost up. By selling the goods, I drive the price down. The more I do of both, the less profit per skill point I realize. This is true of most normal trading post work I do. The more I work, the less that work gets me. I call my niche in the market small because it is small. It may yield me an easy 10g a day, but that’s because it cannot yield me 20g a day. No matter how hard I work to put enough stuff onto the market to allow for sales of 20g/profit a day, that doesn’t happen. People don’t buy the extra. I’m left waiting an extra day for that extra to sell.

//Portable Corpse.
It was nearly a month after I stopped making one item before the last of my production of it finally sold, and then only because the mat costs rose sharply. I’d made a little too much for a real long item.

John Smith.4610:

Here is my stance on this subject:
The TP is part of Tyria and is a part of the game. Spending your time learning to interact with it is a fine way to play the game if that’s what you enjoy. It has ups and downs (including no exp, karma, achievements).

The amount of money to be made on the TP is finite. There is no way it can’t be, the TP only ever sinks money, it never creates it. The TP offers convenience to trade outside of equilibrium pricing, and if a player decides to step in and take the time and effort to consume that trade and push the trade into equilibrium, that is great for the economy. It pushed prices towards equilibrium, provides a service to those who want convenience and sinks money all at the same time.

Trading takes skill, and lots of it, it cannot be argued otherwise and here is why. Because the profit is so limited, the profit has to be split between all the people effectively trading. The lower the skill cap, the more people trading effectively, the less profit individuals make until there’s no longer a real market. If one argues that there is money to be made, then you are arguing that skill is involved.

That’s fine and dandy and all, but it still does not address the point. Why are game written limitations put on all other methods of earning gold and not on trading?

And what of the effects excessive amounts of gold in a very funneled proportiuon of the population have on various item prices?

Neither of those points are ever addressed. Why?

PS How is money able to made off the TP finite? Mind you we have not been debating gold creation, just gold acquisition. I think you might have missed a bit there.

John Smith.4610:

Here is my stance on this subject:
The TP is part of Tyria and is a part of the game. Spending your time learning to interact with it is a fine way to play the game if that’s what you enjoy. It has ups and downs (including no exp, karma, achievements).

The amount of money to be made on the TP is finite. There is no way it can’t be, the TP only ever sinks money, it never creates it. The TP offers convenience to trade outside of equilibrium pricing, and if a player decides to step in and take the time and effort to consume that trade and push the trade into equilibrium, that is great for the economy. It pushed prices towards equilibrium, provides a service to those who want convenience and sinks money all at the same time.

Trading takes skill, and lots of it, it cannot be argued otherwise and here is why. Because the profit is so limited, the profit has to be split between all the people effectively trading. The lower the skill cap, the more people trading effectively, the less profit individuals make until there’s no longer a real market. If one argues that there is money to be made, then you are arguing that skill is involved.

Thank you for your input, as always, John. It’s nice to have an expert such as yourself to solidify the facts on one my points.

Essence Snow.3194:

That’s fine and dandy and all, but it still does not address the point. Why are game written limitations put on all other methods of earning gold and not on trading?

And what of the effects excessive amounts of gold in a very funneled proportiuon of the population have on various item prices?

Neither of those points are ever addressed. Why?

PS How is money able to made off the TP finite? Mind you we have not been debating gold creation, just gold acquisition. I think you might have missed a bit there.

John answered your question, as did I. Please scroll up.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

John answered your question, as did I. Please scroll up.

Uhmmm…. I don’t believe so. He kinda sidestepped it. He put in info about the subject without addressing the main question.

Ya’ll keep saying skill…when skill has nothing to do with the question.

Essence Snow.3194:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

John answered your question, as did I. Please scroll up.

Uhmmm…. I don’t believe so. He kinda sidestepped it. He put in info about the subject without addressing the main question.

Ya’ll keep saying skill…when skill has nothing to do with the question.

It has everything to do with the question, and John verified it. If you don’t know what you’re doing, you can’t play the Trading Post game effectively. I think you’re purposely ignoring the fact presented by us in an attempt to hammer down your points of view.

Let me put it this way. It’s a fact that it takes skill to be successful. You only think there’s no skill involved, which is proof that you don’t understand how it works. And that’s fine. I’m not an expert on everything either. But I also don’t pretend to understand something when I don’t.

And as for the finite amount of Gold. The TP, as we’ve been saying, is limited. Gold isn’t created by the tool. Gold is “transferred” by it between players, and 15% of it is destroyed by the programmed Gold Sink. That means the Gold is permanently taken out of the economy. Now if you’re saying that the available Gold is unlimited, then our points would be invalid, and you’d be correct. However, that’s not the case, and never will be.

It’s like simplifying factions by cancelling like terms. In our case the like terms are skill and time. What’s left are game limitations.

Profit influenced by skill in all other methods will still be limited by the game……ie a players skill cannot overcome the limits that the game has put into effect….dr… farm nerfs….dungeon reward changes…etc etc via skill.

So in essence when playing the tp the only limits is are based on individual skill and other players.

In all other methods it’s based on individual skill, time and GAME LIMITATIONS.

Again acquisition…..not creation……..

Essence Snow.3194:

It’s like simplifying factions by cancelling like terms. In our case the like terms are skill and time. What’s left are game limitations.

Profit influenced by skill in all other methods will still be limited by the game……ie a players skill cannot overcome the limits that the game has put into effect….dr… farm nerfs….dungeon reward changes…etc etc via skill.

So in essence when playing the tp the only limits is are based on individual skill and other players.

In all other methods it’s based on individual skill, time and GAME LIMITATIONS.

Again acquisition…..not creation……..

/sigh

You do realize that all items available from on the TP comes from other players? And with that in mind, think about how these players acquire the items. They come from the game.

In order for an item to be acquired, it must be created. They are created via drops from enemy loot, JP and Dungeon chests, and WvW rank rewards. The very things you keep talking about with limitations. So because your “limitations” exist before they’re ever put on the Trading Post to begin with, you answered your own question.

While there’s the “limitations” you speak of, or rather, Diminishing Returns (DR), there are ways around it. Players with knowledge of how it works can effectively minimize the impact of DR. This knowledge (or skill if you’re so inclined) helps to increase your money making capabilities.

With that said, whether we’re talking about the Trading Post or talking about Farming, a skilled player will know how to make efficient use of either mechanic. The only “limitations” to making money, are the player’s dedication to the task. Once you take the time to learn what you’re doing, you become good at it. Now if you think that’s unfair, then perhaps we should end the discussions here.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Essence Snow.3194:

It’s like simplifying factions by cancelling like terms. In our case the like terms are skill and time. What’s left are game limitations.

Profit influenced by skill in all other methods will still be limited by the game……ie a players skill cannot overcome the limits that the game has put into effect….dr… farm nerfs….dungeon reward changes…etc etc via skill.

So in essence when playing the tp the only limits is are based on individual skill and other players.

In all other methods it’s based on individual skill, time and GAME LIMITATIONS.

Again acquisition…..not creation……..

While there’s the “limitations” you speak of, or rather, Diminishing Returns (DR), there are ways around it. * Players with knowledge of how it works can effectively minimize the impact of DR. This knowledge (or skill if you’re so inclined) helps to increase your money making capabilities.*

This is your answer? Really? Players can work around the imposed limitations? Exploit or minimize?

Essence Snow.3194:

That’s fine and dandy and all, but it still does not address the point. Why are game written limitations put on all other methods of earning gold and not on trading?

And what of the effects excessive amounts of gold in a very funneled proportiuon of the population have on various item prices?

Neither of those points are ever addressed. Why?

PS How is money able to made off the TP finite? Mind you we have not been debating gold creation, just gold acquisition. I think you might have missed a bit there.

The very nature of the TP and its component markets make artificial barriers irrelevant. The more people engage in the game, the less money there is to be made by an individual. So when a particular market becomes too popular, the profit margins drop and someone who has invested too much of his gold loses it.

This keeps a single individual or small group from “controlling” anything. Once someone else finds “your” market, your profits drop immediately, and continue to drop as more people realize there is money to be made there. Eventually, there is no more money to be made because competitors flood the market while trying to dominate the market.

It’s like eating a pizza. If two people share a pizza, each can have half of it to himself. If six people share the same pizza, each gets a decent-sized slice. But if twelve people share the pizza, then the slices are a lot smaller. If twenty people try to share the pizza, each person gets a tiny taste of it.

Making money from the TP is largely dependent on seeking out the items that people want before everyone realizes that people want them. Once the secret is out, the profit drops quickly and you have to move on to another market.

Essence Snow.3194:

This is your answer? Really? Players can work around the imposed limitations? Exploit or minimize?

I think we’ve moved beyond the discussions at hand, and now it’s become a personal crusade against people who do well in this game. There’s another word for that.

I answered your questions in different ways, and even John’s chimed in to explain stuff. Have a good day.

tolunart.2095:

Essence Snow.3194:

That’s fine and dandy and all, but it still does not address the point. Why are game written limitations put on all other methods of earning gold and not on trading?

And what of the effects excessive amounts of gold in a very funneled proportiuon of the population have on various item prices?

Neither of those points are ever addressed. Why?

PS How is money able to made off the TP finite? Mind you we have not been debating gold creation, just gold acquisition. I think you might have missed a bit there.

The very nature of the TP and its component markets make artificial barriers irrelevant. The more people engage in the game, the less money there is to be made by an individual. So when a particular market becomes too popular, the profit margins drop and someone who has invested too much of his gold loses it.

This keeps a single individual or small group from “controlling” anything. Once someone else finds “your” market, your profits drop immediately, and continue to drop as more people realize there is money to be made there. Eventually, there is no more money to be made because competitors flood the market while trying to dominate the market.

It’s like eating a pizza. If two people share a pizza, each can have half of it to himself. If six people share the same pizza, each gets a decent-sized slice. But if twelve people share the pizza, then the slices are a lot smaller. If twenty people try to share the pizza, each person gets a tiny taste of it.

Making money from the TP is largely dependent on seeking out the items that people want before everyone realizes that people want them. Once the secret is out, the profit drops quickly and you have to move on to another market.

Kinda like running a dungeon where a player has to take into consideration other players to how effective their run may or may not be, yet w/o the once a day per path gold cap limitation.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Essence Snow.3194:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Essence Snow.3194:

It’s like simplifying factions by cancelling like terms. In our case the like terms are skill and time. What’s left are game limitations.

Profit influenced by skill in all other methods will still be limited by the game……ie a players skill cannot overcome the limits that the game has put into effect….dr… farm nerfs….dungeon reward changes…etc etc via skill.

So in essence when playing the tp the only limits is are based on individual skill and other players.

In all other methods it’s based on individual skill, time and GAME LIMITATIONS.

Again acquisition…..not creation……..

While there’s the “limitations” you speak of, or rather, Diminishing Returns (DR), there are ways around it. * Players with knowledge of how it works can effectively minimize the impact of DR. This knowledge (or skill if you’re so inclined) helps to increase your money making capabilities.*

This is your answer? Really? Players can work around the imposed limitations? Exploit or minimize?

I think we’ve move beyond the discussions at hand, and now it’s become a personal crusade against people who do well in this game. There’s another word for that.

I answered your questions in different ways, and even John’s chimed in to explain stuff. Have a good day.

Just a fyi I have plenty, JS can confirm that, it’s not about me being against players that do well. It’s simply about inequalites set forth by game limitations and the effects those have on the health of the game.

You repeated the same thing over and over again disregarding the explanation to why that thing had no bearing on the point at hand.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

I think we’ve moved beyond the discussions at hand, and now it’s become a personal crusade against people who do well in this game. There’s another word for that.
.

It always was. There’s a difference between seeking answers and seeking validation.

tolunart.2095:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

I think we’ve moved beyond the discussions at hand, and now it’s become a personal crusade against people who do well in this game. There’s another word for that.
.

It always was. There’s a difference between seeking answers and seeking validation.

Then why won’t anyone answer the question directly? They always sidestep it and argue things that are not pertinent to the case at hand. I explained why they are not, yet every reply I get is exactly the same sidestep.

It’s like those congressional questions that are yes or no and the responder simply will not answer yes or no.

Your question has been answered many times, in many ways, by many people. The only one insisting that it has not been answered is you.

Essence Snow.3194:

tolunart.2095:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

I think we’ve moved beyond the discussions at hand, and now it’s become a personal crusade against people who do well in this game. There’s another word for that.
.

It always was. There’s a difference between seeking answers and seeking validation.

Then why won’t anyone answer the question directly? They always sidestep it and argue things that are not pertinent to the case at hand. I explained why they are not, yet every reply I get is exactly the same sidestep.

It’s like those congressional questions that are yes or no and the responder simply will not answer yes or no.

The questions were all answered. You just don’t understand it or won’t accept it. It’s like a 5th grader refusing to believe there is no Santa Claus. The proper term is called “denial”.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Essence Snow.3194:

tolunart.2095:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

I think we’ve moved beyond the discussions at hand, and now it’s become a personal crusade against people who do well in this game. There’s another word for that.
.

It always was. There’s a difference between seeking answers and seeking validation.

Then why won’t anyone answer the question directly? They always sidestep it and argue things that are not pertinent to the case at hand. I explained why they are not, yet every reply I get is exactly the same sidestep.

It’s like those congressional questions that are yes or no and the responder simply will not answer yes or no.

The questions were all answered. You just don’t understand it or won’t accept it. It’s like a 5th grader refusing to believe there is no Santa Claus. The proper term is called “denial”.

Please for my 5th grade mind my answer them once more in plain english, directly and to the point.

Why are game written limitations put on all other methods of earning gold and not on trading?

And what of the effects excessive amounts of gold in a very funneled proportion of the population have on various item prices?

I can formulate a direct answer if you would like an example for reference.

I’m sorry Essence Snow, but you’re wrong. Smooth Penguin/tolunart have repeatedly answered your questions. You call it sidestepping, I call it just you not understanding the points they are trying to transmit to you.

I’ll give you my two cents, though.

Why can’t a player buy items from other players and sell them for a different price? The matter at hand is as simple as that. Why would you restrict me from buying an item at a price I want from a person selling at the price they want?