Guild Wars 2

Today marks my 1000th attempt at Dusk or Dawn (yes I kept track). That’s 4000 rares and still not one precursor. I’d like to give a Big Bird to the Mystic toilet and the devs that coded it. That is all.

I have a question. When you lose money in a gambling casino, do you blame the house?

At least the casino gives me free drinks. This is just highway robbery. I just wanted to vent my disgust in this “luck over skill” system. The March WvW update is all that’s keeping me here now. I’m done with this game’s PvE.

The MF gives you free items for every 4 that you put in. Same thing as a casino really.

Serum.4067:

At least the casino gives me free drinks. This is just highway robbery. I just wanted to vent my disgust in this “luck over skill” system. The March WvW update is all that’s keeping me here now. I’m done with this game’s PvE.

Well, you could’ve always just sold those 4000 rares and bought a precursor outright, you know.

Real quick calculation. assuming 25s each for a rare, that’s 1000G. Son of a biscuit!

Ursan.7846:

Serum.4067:

At least the casino gives me free drinks. This is just highway robbery. I just wanted to vent my disgust in this “luck over skill” system. The March WvW update is all that’s keeping me here now. I’m done with this game’s PvE.

Well, you could’ve always just sold those 4000 rares and bought a precursor outright, you know.

Real quick calculation. assuming 25s each for a rare, that’s 1000G. Son of a biscuit!

You made me lol :P

Ursan.7846:

Serum.4067:

At least the casino gives me free drinks. This is just highway robbery. I just wanted to vent my disgust in this “luck over skill” system. The March WvW update is all that’s keeping me here now. I’m done with this game’s PvE.

Well, you could’ve always just sold those 4000 rares and bought a precursor outright, you know.

Real quick calculation. assuming 25s each for a rare, that’s 1000G. Son of a biscuit!

But Ursan, there’s a couple of intangibles that isn’t accounted for in math. And that, my friend, is the fun of throwing stuff into the Forge, and that feeling of the anticipation of waiting for that precursor to pop on your screen. It’s like an addiction!

Serum.4067:

Today marks my 1000th attempt at Dusk or Dawn (yes I kept track). That’s 4000 rares and still not one precursor. I’d like to give a Big Bird to the Mystic toilet and the devs that coded it. That is all.

A little more information is required about the 4,000 Rares you dumped into the Mystic Forge before I can personally determine whether it’s just bad luck, or if you’re doing it wrong. Can you please answer the following questions?

Since you were going for Dusk / Dawn:
Did you put 4,000 Rare Greatswords into the Mystic Forge?
Were they all level 76 to 80?

I ask these questions because if you didn’t put a Greatsword in, you may not get one out. A single greatsword in a group of 4 doesn’t mean you’ll get a Greatsword out….you could get something completely random. If the Rares you put in were below lvl 76, your chances of getting a precursor are dramatically reduced. You could have gotten a higher level rare, or possibly an Exotic, but the likelihood of a precursor would have been slim. Basically, if you put 4,000 random rares below level 76 into the MF, the possibility to get a precursor is SO small that I would be MORE surprised if you DID get one.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

But Ursan, there’s a couple of intangibles that isn’t accounted for in math. And that, my friend, is the fun of throwing stuff into the Forge, and that feeling of the anticipation of waiting for that precursor to pop on your screen. It’s like an addiction!

As someone who frequents Vegas, I wholeheartedly endorse this post.

Ursan.7846:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

But Ursan, there’s a couple of intangibles that isn’t accounted for in math. And that, my friend, is the fun of throwing stuff into the Forge, and that feeling of the anticipation of waiting for that precursor to pop on your screen. It’s like an addiction!

As someone who frequents Vegas, I wholeheartedly endorse this post.

The Mystic Forge is like Megabucks. I keep throwing Franklins at the machine, and praying that the icons line up. That feeling when two icons line up, and the third one stops half way down…

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Ursan.7846:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

But Ursan, there’s a couple of intangibles that isn’t accounted for in math. And that, my friend, is the fun of throwing stuff into the Forge, and that feeling of the anticipation of waiting for that precursor to pop on your screen. It’s like an addiction!

As someone who frequents Vegas, I wholeheartedly endorse this post.

The Mystic Forge is like Megabucks. I keep throwing Franklins at the machine, and praying that the icons line up. That feeling when two icons line up, and the third one stops half way down…

Now there’s an idea… What if Z-man gave us a spinning wheel of all the stuff he could give us before he sticks us with junk? And if someone does get a really rare item out of the forge, maybe some fireworks would be in order

Dad always made me drop a buck in the Wheel of Fortune machines when I went to Vegas for trade shows. Z-man could learn a lot from those casinos when it comes to emptying your wallet and still have you walk away smiling.

Pandemoniac.4739:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Ursan.7846:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

But Ursan, there’s a couple of intangibles that isn’t accounted for in math. And that, my friend, is the fun of throwing stuff into the Forge, and that feeling of the anticipation of waiting for that precursor to pop on your screen. It’s like an addiction!

As someone who frequents Vegas, I wholeheartedly endorse this post.

The Mystic Forge is like Megabucks. I keep throwing Franklins at the machine, and praying that the icons line up. That feeling when two icons line up, and the third one stops half way down…

Now there’s an idea… What if Z-man gave us a spinning wheel of all the stuff he could give us before he sticks us with junk? And if someone does get a really rare item out of the forge, maybe some fireworks would be in order

Dad always made me drop a buck in the Wheel of Fortune machines when I went to Vegas for trade shows. Z-man could learn a lot from those casinos when it comes to emptying your wallet and still have you walk away smiling.

OMG!!!! That would be SO awesome.

You put 4 items in, then pull the lever…….

The 3 wheels display like this….

Wheel #1: Item Type (Armor Type, weapon type, dye, crafting material, etc.)
Wheel #2: Item Level (0-80)
Wheel #3: Item Rarity (Basic, Fine, Masterwork, Rare, Exotic)

Then the box pops up with what you actually got like it does now.

People would be addicted to playing the MF. It’s basically a slot machine….make it act like one, lol.

This thread went in such a great direction lol

Pandemoniac.4739:

Now there’s an idea… What if Z-man gave us a spinning wheel of all the stuff he could give us before he sticks us with junk? And if someone does get a really rare item out of the forge, maybe some fireworks would be in order

Dad always made me drop a buck in the Wheel of Fortune machines when I went to Vegas for trade shows. Z-man could learn a lot from those casinos when it comes to emptying your wallet and still have you walk away smiling.

I like the free drinks (Tonic) idea. Turn you into something different after every attempt!

So is this thread officially our unofficial petition to convert Zommoros into a slot machine?

Adding to the idea, let’s ask Anet to allow us to put GOLD COINS in addition to Mystic Coins into the Mystic Forge. Talk about a gold sink.

You keep using the mystic toilet and they’ll keep designing stuff for it.

Just stop using it.

Ursan.7846:

I have a question. When you lose money in a gambling casino, do you blame the house?

But this isn’t a casino, this is a video game. And he didn’t ask to let the mystic forge make him risk, he wanted a legendary. Which is the end game for PvE.

Random is not the answer, because it’s only fun for the few select winners.

Geikamir.6329:

But this isn’t a casino, this is a video game.

That is false. The MF is a casino within a video game.

Ursan.7846:

Geikamir.6329:

But this isn’t a casino, this is a video game.

That is false. The MF is a casino within a video game.

No it’s not. Not all gambling is involves casino. No one bought this game with the intention of going in to gamble currency to make more currency. No one says “I want to make a legendary because there’s gambling involved.”

This is how Zommoros should look like.

Geikamir.6329:

No it’s not. Not all gambling is involves casino. No one bought this game with the intention of going in to gamble currency to make more currency. No one says “I want to make a legendary because there’s gambling involved.”

You’re right. The MF doesn’t serve free drinks. It is not a casino.

Also I know what your opinion is and I believe it has discussed to death already so I don’t care too much to talk about it. However, I would appreciate it though if you don’t project your own opinions on the playerbase as a whole though. Gambling currency to make more currency? Yea, many players do that. Willingly in fact.

Also if you don’t like RNG that much, the Suggestions forum is that way.

Ursan.7846:

Geikamir.6329:

No it’s not. Not all gambling is involves casino. No one bought this game with the intention of going in to gamble currency to make more currency. No one says “I want to make a legendary because there’s gambling involved.”

You’re right. The MF doesn’t serve free drinks. It is not a casino.

Also I know what your opinion is and I believe it has discussed to death already so I don’t care too much to talk about it. However, I would appreciate it though if you don’t project your own opinions on the playerbase as a whole though. Gambling currency to make more currency? Yea, many players do that. Willingly in fact.

Also if you don’t like RNG that much, the Suggestions forum is that way.

I’ve heard your opinion and don’t want you to discuss it any more either. >.>

I didn’t say no players do that. I said no one bought the game to do that. When you go into a casino you go in to gamble, that’s the purpose it exists.

If you don’t like my opinion, and the opinions of others, the [X] button on your browser is that way.

Geikamir.6329:

I didn’t say no players do that. I said no one bought the game to do that. When you go into a casino you go in to gamble, that’s the purpose it exists.

I don’t follow your logic. Just because people didn’t purchase the game explicitly for a certain feature, it shouldn’t exist?

I highly doubt people bought the game to do jumping puzzles either. Should they exist too? (Yes, there are many people who don’t like them.) In fact, I’d say going into an mmo expecting no RNG is to be a bit unrealistic.

Anyways, while I do respect your opinion, the system that’s in place is what we have right now. Within the constraints of the current system, if the OP actually had sold those 4000 rares and purchased the precursor outright, he would not be having this problem. If you so vehemently oppose the system, then the Suggestion forum is that way. If is your opinion and you have a right to present it.

Ursan.7846:

Geikamir.6329:

I didn’t say no players do that. I said no one bought the game to do that. When you go into a casino you go in to gamble, that’s the purpose it exists.

I don’t follow your logic. Just because people didn’t purchase the game explicitly for a certain feature, it shouldn’t exist?

I highly doubt people bought the game to do jumping puzzles either. Should they exist too? (Yes, there are many people who don’t like them.) In fact, I’d say going into an mmo expecting no RNG is to be a bit unrealistic.

Anyways, while I do respect your opinion, the system that’s in place is what we have right now. Within the constraints of the current system, if the OP actually had sold those 4000 rares and purchased the precursor outright, he would not be having this problem. If you so vehemently oppose the system, then the Suggestion forum is that way.

There’s no way for him to know that he could have bought it before hand, because there is no way to find out how lucky you are going to be until you gamble. Likely around 99% of all precursors were made from gambling, so someone has to do it. And even buying them does not have a set price. It has constantly changing goalposts based on the whims of other players. So even that you don’t know what the cost will be going in.

Legendaries are the end game for PvE. It’s what players have to do when they’ve completed the story line and maybe even leveled some alts. It is the only thing LOTS of players are still playing for. Jumping puzzles are a side joy that can all be completed in a day. They are vastly different things.

Expecting no RNG is not the problem. It’s the variation between those that win and those that lose. It’s HUNDREDS of hours worth of variation. And that’s not fun. Well, for anyone other than the few select winners.

Geikamir.6329:

And even buying them does not have a set price. It has constantly changing goalposts based on the whims of other players. So even that you don’t know what the cost will be going in.

Like I said, I honestly don’t care about your opinion on whether RNG is good or not. It’s yours, it’s cool, you have a right to it.

It seriously irks me when you say stuff like this though (And one of your previous statements. Why does it matter if people didn’t explicitly buy this game for a specific feature? It shouldn’t exist? It’s okay to not like RNG as your opinion, but trying to justify that by that argument is faulty logic.)

But are you seriously trying to compare fluctuating market costs to the uncertainty of the MF? This is an absurd comparison. Players will continue to accrue gold slowly, no matter what the price fluctuations are, and they will eventually reach the point where they can afford it (which the OP definitely can). Barring any drastic changes by Anet, the prices of precursors will not increase infinitely (for very good economic reasons. Look at Dusk. Similar price to 2 month ago, ignoring a few spikes). So by diligently saving up gold, you will be able to buy that precursor eventually, fluctuations in prices or not.

Of course it’s not 100% certainty. Nothing is. But the certainty level is certainly significantly higher than MFing for a precursor that quite frankly I can’t fathom why you would compare the two.

EDIT: By the way, this is completely ignoring the OP’s situation. In which hypothetically if he sold all his rares and had 1000G, then buying it on the TP is an absolute certainty. And this is a fact.

He didn’t know he was going to spend 1000g trying before he actually did. And that’s a fact.

I don’t care that it urks you as you don’t care that the entire system was built based on the principle of unfairness. It’s unfair that some can get rewarded more for contributing less. And unfairness isn’t fun. Except for the minority (the lucky).

Geikamir.6329:

He didn’t know he was going to spend 1000g trying before he actually did. And that’s a fact.

Well yes. That’s obvious, it’s the nature of gambling. I’m confused as to why you bring it up and what you’re trying to refute though. I don’t remember saying otherwise. Neither to I believe any posters in here have said otherwise.

I’m also confused as to how this relates to my previous posts. How does this fact change in any way, shape, or form the fact that he could have, with 100% certainty, bought a precursor in the BLT with that money?

Ursan.7846:

Geikamir.6329:

He didn’t know he was going to spend 1000g trying before he actually did. And that’s a fact.

Well yes. That’s obvious, it’s the nature of gambling. I’m confused as to why you bring it up and what you’re trying to refute though. I don’t remember saying otherwise. Neither to I believe any posters in here have said otherwise.

I’m also confused as to how this relates to my previous posts. How does this fact change in any way, shape, or form the fact that he could have, with 100% certainty, bought a precursor in the BLT with that money?

This is a “Hindsight is 20/20” argument. It’s a perfectly valid point though. With the ~1000g he spent on the rares, he COULD have purchased the precursor that he wanted outright….but he didn’t.

Personally….with all of the threads, comments, etc. about how HORRIBLE it is to try and get a precursor out of the Mystic Forge….why would anyone try it?

The reason the OP tried it is because he felt the gamble was worth it. Turns out…it wasn’t and now he’s upset. Boo hoo. He’s not going to get any sympathy from me though. He knew the risks, he chose to gamble anyway.

At what point do you stop putting your debit card into the ATM to get more money so you can put it in a slot machine? Sounds to me like the OP didn’t stop soon enough. Boo hoo.

This is why, the way the game is currently implemented, I am never going for a legendary, unless I have so much gold that I could just buy a precursor outright.

DarkSpirit.7046:

This is why, the way the game is currently implemented, I am never going for a legendary, unless I have so much gold that I could just buy a precursor outright.

Me too. I think the standard gambling advice of don’t put more on the table than you can stand to lose applies. I know when I toss stuff in the forge the odds are against me, so I do it for fun on the off chance I’ll get lucky. I turned 4 major soul bound runes into a superior rune of divinity, and it made my day. I wasn’t particularly looking for that rune, but the gold I could sell it for is something I can use.

If you’re serious about getting a legendary, you should be working on amassing gold, not messing around with the forge. There are plenty of folks that got lucky that would rather have a heaping pile of gold than a pre-cursor.

Charismatic Harm.9683:

This is a “Hindsight is 20/20” argument. It’s a perfectly valid point though. With the ~1000g he spent on the rares, he COULD have purchased the precursor that he wanted outright….but he didn’t.

I think you misunderstand me. My entire point is directed at Geikamir’s attempt at comparing the level of uncertainty in purchasing precursors from the BLT and obtaining it from the MF.

Which is an absurd comparison.

Ursan.7846:

Charismatic Harm.9683:

This is a “Hindsight is 20/20” argument. It’s a perfectly valid point though. With the ~1000g he spent on the rares, he COULD have purchased the precursor that he wanted outright….but he didn’t.

I think you misunderstand me. My entire point is directed at Geikamir’s attempt at comparing the level of uncertainty in purchasing precursors from the BLT and obtaining it from the MF.

Which is an absurd comparison.

I’m not comparing the two. I’m saying that combined they create a horrible system that promotes unfairness.

Geikamir.6329:

No it’s not. Not all gambling is involves casino. No one bought this game with the intention of going in to gamble currency to make more currency. No one says “I want to make a legendary because there’s gambling involved.”

Everybody that buys an MMO goes in expecting some form of RNG. It’s how loot has dropped from monsters for as long back as DAoC. Heck, even normal RPGs have enemies randomly drop things from a random possibilities chart. In the case of MMO’s people looking to make money from sales are always making a gamble that someone else won’t undersell them, and that someone will buy their item in the first place.

As someone with no luck, I understand the frustration of putting things in and getting nothing out of it. However, at the same time, it is a personal choice to try and get a precursor from the mystic toilet – you could go farm dungeons and world events like many others do trying to either save up money or get that elusive RNG precursor drop if you are so bent on getting a Legendary. I honestly just gave up on the idea of getting a Legendary myself, not so much because of the pure luck or obscene amounts of money, but simply because I’m not a PvP kind of guy, so I’d never obtain that aspect of getting one.
The problem with computer-based luck is that you can exceed 100 tries in that 1/100 chance and still continue to fail. There is no stacking favors (if I need a jack with a 4/52 chance, the card gets put it and re-shuffled every time, you aren’t removing cards and going to a 4/51 or 4/50). It’s there for the people who want to gamble, to sink items and possible gold in it. They don’t want to play the game my way any more than I want to play the game theirs.

Geikamir.6329:

I’m not comparing the two.

Forgive me for misunderstanding you, but this is what I understood from your post.

Geikamir.6329:

There’s no way for him to know that he could have bought it before hand, because there is no way to find out how lucky you are going to be until you gamble.

This is absolutely true. There is a ton of uncertainty if you attempt to use the MF to obtain a precursor. No one refuting this.

Geikamir.6329:

And even buying them does not have a set price. It has constantly changing goalposts based on the whims of other players. So even that you don’t know what the cost will be going in.

And then you say this. If you’re not trying to compare the uncertainty of obtaining a precursor on the MF to the “uncertainty” of purchasing said precursor on the BLT, then what are you trying to imply in this statement?

Again, there’s always an “uncertainty” with the BLT. You never know what Anet or the players do. But this “uncertainty” is only a problem if prices for precursors increase infinitely (Because I highly doubt you have a problem if they went down.). Which again, is unlikely to happen in this economic system. If players just continue to accrue gold, they will eventually reach a point where they can purchase a precursor outright, without any chance of “failure.” This is far greater amount of “certainty” than using the MF.

Despite my overuse of the word “certainty,” I do hope you’re understanding my point though.

Without some sort of stated odds (or found odds) the gambling of the mf is much worse than a casino. If one were to compare anything in this game, the most suited would be the cow launcher where one can gamble 50s per go. The gambling that it offers actually has decent odds yet not many players play it. I wonder why?

Essence Snow.3194:

If one were to compare anything in this game, the most suited would be the cow launcher where one can gamble 50s per go. The gambling that it offers actually has decent odds yet not many players play it. I wonder why?

Because it’s not conveniently located, not always open for business, and it’s an all-or-nothing game with a pretty steep cost and a fixed pay out? The forge always gives you something back, and it has some rules that give you some control over the results.

I’m not saying the forge is necessarily a better deal, but it’s definitely more attractive on its surface to the typical player.

Serum.4067:

Today marks my 1000th attempt at Dusk or Dawn (yes I kept track). That’s 4000 rares and still not one precursor. I’d like to give a Big Bird to the Mystic toilet and the devs that coded it. That is all.

Still “beating” you… 444 rares and 1284 exotics so far, no precursor yet…

Ursan.7846:

Geikamir.6329:

I’m not comparing the two.

Forgive me for misunderstanding you, but this is what I understood from your post.

Geikamir.6329:

There’s no way for him to know that he could have bought it before hand, because there is no way to find out how lucky you are going to be until you gamble.

This is absolutely true. There is a ton of uncertainty if you attempt to use the MF to obtain a precursor. No one refuting this.

Geikamir.6329:

And even buying them does not have a set price. It has constantly changing goalposts based on the whims of other players. So even that you don’t know what the cost will be going in.

And then you say this. If you’re not trying to compare the uncertainty of obtaining a precursor on the MF to the “uncertainty” of purchasing said precursor on the BLT, then what are you trying to imply in this statement?

Again, there’s always an “uncertainty” with the BLT. You never know what Anet or the players do. But this “uncertainty” is only a problem if prices for precursors increase infinitely (Because I highly doubt you have a problem if they went down.). Which again, is unlikely to happen in this economic system. If players just continue to accrue gold, they will eventually reach a point where they can purchase a precursor outright, without any chance of “failure.” This is far greater amount of “certainty” than using the MF.

Despite my overuse of the word “certainty,” I do hope you’re understanding my point though.

I do see your point but, while that’s it’s better to have that option than do have them be character bound, a more fair system would be to have them bought through vendors like cultural armors or dungeon merchants and erase the mystic forge from the situation all together. This is the more elegant and fair solution, by far.

Geikamir.6329:

I do see your point but, while that’s it’s better to have that option than do have them be character bound, a more fair system would be to have them bought through vendors like cultural armors or dungeon merchants and erase the mystic forge from the situation all together. This is the more elegant and fair solution, by far.

Which begs the question, why is a constant, set NPC vendor price more “fair” than a market-driven, player-dictated price?

It depends on the specific prices set of course, but players who want one of the less popular Legendaries (like the focus or the spear) will be hosed. Market-driven prices puts a premium on demand. With constant NPC prices, players will even have less motivation to go for the less-popular Legendaries. Do you really want to get an underwater Legendary, when at the same price you can get a GS legendary?

Just something I’d like to point out. I am a firm believer in the opinion that the market should dictate everything. Whether your method is “fair” or not isn’t as clear cut as you try to make it.

Of course there’s the option that Anet sells these precursors for 5000G each from an NPC. Is that also fair?

Ursan.7846:

Geikamir.6329:

I do see your point but, while that’s it’s better to have that option than do have them be character bound, a more fair system would be to have them bought through vendors like cultural armors or dungeon merchants and erase the mystic forge from the situation all together. This is the more elegant and fair solution, by far.

Which begs the question, why is a constant, set NPC vendor price more “fair” than a market-driven, player-dictated price?

It depends on the specific prices set of course, but players who want one of the less popular Legendaries (like the focus or the spear) will be hosed. Market-driven prices puts a premium on demand. With constant NPC prices, players will even have less motivation to go for the less-popular Legendaries. Do you really want to get an underwater Legendary, when at the same price you can get a GS legendary?

Just something I’d like to point out. I am a firm believer in the opinion that the market should dictate everything. Whether your method is “fair” or not isn’t as clear cut as you try to make it.

Of course there’s the option that Anet sells these precursors for 5000G each from an NPC. Is that also fair?

I never said what the price from the vendor should be set at, because I haven’t thought about where it should be set at. The important thing is that they ARE set. But yes, all legendaries should have the same price (except water ones, which should be cheaper since we spend less time underwater) because that IS fair. What is unfair is that just because someone happens to like a dagger or greatsword better that they should be punished by paying more. The incentive for making legendaries should not be reliant on cost. If people don’t like how certain ones looks, it means they weren’t designed well enough.

Geikamir.6329:

What is unfair is that just because someone happens to like a dagger or greatsword better that they should be punished by paying more.

On the flipside, isn’t it also unfair then, that someone who actually wants a focus or a torch have to pay the same price as a GS/dagger, whereas in a player-driven market he’d most likely pay much less?

Ursan.7846:

Geikamir.6329:

What is unfair is that just because someone happens to like a dagger or greatsword better that they should be punished by paying more.

On the flipside, isn’t it also unfair then, that someone who actually wants a focus or a torch have to pay the same price as a GS/dagger, whereas in a player-driven market he’d most likely pay much less?

No, it’s fair by definition.

Sorry about your bad luck, sucks being the victim of one of the worst and laziest designed systems in all of gaming, the Legendary process in this game is garbage! I am currently at 325 attempts right now and once in a great great while I’ll get an exotic to sell. Luckily these attempts have not cost me a single copper, never bought a rare only used what I get in drops and what ever I can craft using my T5 and gathering mats. Every couple weeks I will do a few attempts crossing my fingers so I can get the stupid Legendary done and over with, but like you I have a bad RnG account and will be able to buy my legendary out right long before I get a precursor drop.

Geikamir.6329:

No, it’s fair by definition.

Taken in a vacuum, yes.

But we’re not working in a vacuum here. You’re comparing your system to the system we have right now, which is a player-driven market. And under your new system, certain players will benefit, while others will suffer.

So it’s not.

Ursan.7846:

Geikamir.6329:

No, it’s fair by definition.

Taken in a vacuum, yes.

But we’re not working in a vacuum here. You’re comparing your system to the system we have right now, which is a player-driven market. And under your new system, certain players will benefit, while others will suffer.

So it’s not.

That’s not how fairness works.

If I was awarded $1000 for a halfcourt basketball shot but the person behind me was awarded $10, that would be unfair.

If we both took the shot again, suceeded, and were awarded $500 each, then that attempt would be fair.

I was unfairly awarded beforehand. Just because my award comes down in amount does not mean that I am being unfairly treated. It’s the exact opposite because fairness accounts for the balance of 2 or more entities/rules/regulations/etc. to be universally identical/functionally similar (based on subject matter).

Geikamir.6329:

If I was awarded $1000 for a halfcourt basketball shot but the person behind me was awarded $10, that would be unfair.

If we both took the shot again, suceeded, and were awarded $500 each, then that attempt would be fair.

But then Person #1 would cry foul. Why am I suddenly getting rewarded less? Other person be kitten this isn’t fair.

Though I’m afraid we’re starting to argue about subjective interpretations of the word “fair” which won’t have a conclusion at all. I wanted to keep this discussion objective, but I obviously failed miserably in my original intentions. It’s good to know that you’re passionate about your opinion and willing to articulate it though.

Ursan.7846:

Geikamir.6329:

If I was awarded $1000 for a halfcourt basketball shot but the person behind me was awarded $10, that would be unfair.

If we both took the shot again, suceeded, and were awarded $500 each, then that attempt would be fair.

But then Person #1 would cry foul. Why am I suddenly getting rewarded less? Other person be kitten this isn’t fair.

Though I’m afraid we’re starting to argue about subjective interpretations of the word “fair” which won’t have a conclusion at all. I wanted to keep this discussion objective, but I obviously failed miserably in my original intentions. It’s good to know that you’re passionate about your opinion and willing to articulate it though.

I do think that in the end we will have to agree to disagree. In the end you want the free market to be supreme and I want equality to be the ultimate goal. Those two concepts have a very hard time being friends.

Ursan.7846:

Geikamir.6329:

If I was awarded $1000 for a halfcourt basketball shot but the person behind me was awarded $10, that would be unfair.

If we both took the shot again, suceeded, and were awarded $500 each, then that attempt would be fair.

But then Person #1 would cry foul. Why am I suddenly getting rewarded less? Other person be kitten this isn’t fair.

Though I’m afraid we’re starting to argue about subjective interpretations of the word “fair” which won’t have a conclusion at all. I wanted to keep this discussion objective, but I obviously failed miserably in my original intentions. It’s good to know that you’re passionate about your opinion and willing to articulate it though.

There’s perfectly sound research and theory on what is considered ‘fair’ and what’s not. In this particular case, equity theory would be most relevant: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equity_theory. In general it is considered fair when the ratio between one’s inputs and one’s outcomes is the same for all actors.

This applies pretty much universally by the way, however, there are contexts where other fairness norms may be adopted. In close relationships, for example, need-based fairness norms may be in place (i.e., we look at each others needs to determine who deserves something).

In any case, fairness isn’t all that subjective. Equity is pretty much the default norm, but in specific contexts people may deviate from this norm. Also note that the equity norm includes equality.

Yesterday i bought 80g worth staff and got The Legend on 20th try(20×4). I know it is super luck and the end game plays on RNG.

Geikamir.6329:

Ursan.7846:

Geikamir.6329:

What is unfair is that just because someone happens to like a dagger or greatsword better that they should be punished by paying more.

On the flipside, isn’t it also unfair then, that someone who actually wants a focus or a torch have to pay the same price as a GS/dagger, whereas in a player-driven market he’d most likely pay much less?

No, it’s fair by definition.

I think the problem is that you’re operating from an incorrect assumption that a dagger has the same value as a focus. It doesn’t – the dagger is more valuable than a focus because more people want it. It is not fair that they should be the same price.

You accept that underwater weapons are less valuable, because they get used less, but arbitrarily have decided that daggers are the same value as a focus, even though daggers get used more. That’s not fair. Your decisions about the value of things are not the same decisions that someone else would make. Fighting underwater in Frostgorge is something my ranger loves to do, and I think that the legendary speargun looks pretty cool and would take it over a dagger any day.

The market is very good at determining the value of things when it’s stable. Lot of folks making lots of purchasing decisions based on their personal calculations of value aggregate to end up with the fairest possible valuation of an item. That’s why the TP being cross server with a huge number of players participating in it is awesome. One person doesn’t decide what a fair price for something is, everyone collectively decides based on the current environment.

Low supply/high demand items are naturally more volatile than high supply items, and whether the going price for the pre-cursors is truly the right price and not due to some problem with the market is above my pay grade. In theory though, the market will set the fairest price, because a horde of buyers and sellers know more collectively than a few people on a committee trying to arrive at a price.