Guild Wars 2

welp, hope a good lesson was learned today for having unrestricted buying and selling power on the tp anet. honestly, you need to make items account bound once purchased from the tp. don’t worry, there are enough people contributing to the bltc that items will find their equilibrium prices.

thanks for reading!

A lesson in how easy it is to take people’s money … and they give it happily. Why would we want to restrict that? Everyone wins.

that must have been especially fun to watch from your perspective JS….

Obtena.7952:

A lesson in how easy it is to take people’s money … and they give it happily. Why would we want to restrict that? Everyone wins.

I would theorize that there were a lot of people on one end of a transaction who did not “give happily” today. The people who, for example, no longer wished to trade at the sell price they had posted their items at (and would have taken them down if given the choice), but ended up trading at those prices anyways because they had no opportunity to rescind their offer between the time when outside circumstances changed and when a buyer took them up on the price they USED to want to sell at.

Fair. You knew information was being released today and left your items on the auction house, things like this are commonplace around times such as this. People that were aware benefited while those that were unaware did not.

John Smith.4610:

I think if anything this was a lesson in how efficient the market is and is a great argument against that idea.

how so? please explain it in an economics for dummies way.

John Smith.4610:

I think if anything this was a lesson in how efficient the market is and is a great argument against that idea.

Chalk another one up for JS!

Swagger.1459:

how so? please explain it in an economics for dummies way.

Because as you said, the market will find it’s equilibrium.
The value of those items is going to change as the methods for acquiring them change, that is as it should be. So if the market is going to find a new equilibrium on them then it’s working as intended.

VincentDW.9376:

Obtena.7952:

A lesson in how easy it is to take people’s money … and they give it happily. Why would we want to restrict that? Everyone wins.

I would theorize that there were a lot of people on one end of a transaction who did not “give happily” today. The people who, for example, no longer wished to trade at the sell price they had posted their items at (and would have taken them down if given the choice), but ended up trading at those prices anyways because they had no opportunity to rescind their offer between the time when outside circumstances changed and when a buyer took them up on the price they USED to want to sell at.

This……………….

Smooth Penguin.5294:

John Smith.4610:

I think if anything this was a lesson in how efficient the market is and is a great argument against that idea.

Chalk another one up for JS!

from my current consumer prospective…

it was a lesson learned in how efficiently those who had the opportunity to log in at a particular time can manipulate the market for personal gain. occurrences like these can make players question whether or not to continue feeding the gem store with real currency to continue funding a company and their employees. so far there are no buying and reselling restrictions on the bltc besides how much gold you currently have and/or how many gems you have to convert.

I do sympathise with the players who were not online/sleeping/working when the news hit. Believe me, I know all too well what it’s like to miss out on the opportunity to profit/stop losses when major market changes arrive.

But at the same time, for once I was actually online when the “big change” happened, and I made a tidy profit trading some of my unused Laurels to Unided Dyes and selling them during the huge initial spike.

There are always winners and losers in a free market. Sometimes whether you’re on one side or the other just comes down to luck and being in the right place at the right time.

Obtena.7952:

A lesson in how easy it is to take people’s money … and they give it happily. Why would we want to restrict that? Everyone wins.

Actually, “everyone” doesn’t win. Speculators win. Those are the folks that bought most of the supply this morning and that is a minority group. The “losers” are those folks who will some day down the road want to buy those dyes and will now pay 10-20x the price they could have paid.

Swagger.1459:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

John Smith.4610:

I think if anything this was a lesson in how efficient the market is and is a great argument against that idea.

Chalk another one up for JS!

from my current consumer prospective…

it was a lesson learned in how efficiently those who had the opportunity to log in at a particular time can manipulate the market for personal gain. occurrences like these can make players question whether or not to continue feeding the gem store with real currency to continue funding a company and their employees. so far there are no buying and reselling restrictions on the bltc besides how much gold you currently have and/or how many gems you have to convert.

It’s not market manipulation, it’s market speculation. Too bad the only winners are the EU folks or those who don’t have jobs just like it is every other time when anet releases this type of info mid day in the NA region. GG anet.

Lucifers Heaven.2167:

Swagger.1459:

how so? please explain it in an economics for dummies way.

Because as you said, the market will find it’s equilibrium.
The value of those items is going to change as the methods for acquiring them change, that is as it should be. So if the market is going to find a new equilibrium on them then it’s working as intended.

yes, but the initial buy and sell manipulation still occurred. that is not fair or balanced for all customers/clients of this game. would my concern be different if say… at some point between the hours of 12pm-2pm on a particular random day there was a sale on gems that gave players who had an opportunity to log in at that specific time to gain 10x the amount of gems for the same price? no, I’d feel the same way.

from my perspective, anet takes the hands off to blame approach for the economy, but they are the ones who coded and maintain every aspect of the game so things like these become questioned. this is not a real world economy, its a fantasy game economy created and designed by a group of people who ultimately have the monopoly and gain the most.

what I’m speaking of is about treating your customers and clients the same and cutting out loopholes that make things unfair and unbalanced. personally to me, things add up and make me less likely to financially support a company who is more of an enabler to activities like these as opposed to one who tries to resolve them better.

Isn’t luck everything in this game? Which ever time they choose there would always be some people somewhere in the world that couldn’t login then. There is just no way to please everybody.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

John Smith.4610:

I think if anything this was a lesson in how efficient the market is and is a great argument against that idea.

Chalk another one up for JS!

Stop drooling all over JS’s feet every time he puts out a one liner that means nothing. Market efficiency? It’s called speculation.

I don’t see how you can call speculators buying up most of the supply on the TP a great argument for keeping the TP the way it is. If anything account bound TP purchases are better for all the folks who actually want to use the dyes rather than make money on them. To me, this is the perfect example of why the TP purchases should be changed to account bound.

cranked.3812:

If anything account bound TP purchases are better for all the folks who actually want to use the dyes rather than make money on them. To me, this is the perfect example of why the TP purchases should be changed to account bound.

Not really. I will quit the game if that communistic dictatorship of the TP ever happens.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

John Smith.4610:

I think if anything this was a lesson in how efficient the market is and is a great argument against that idea.

Chalk another one up for JS!

additionally, js is also a paid employee to generate gem sales for his company so naturally he would be in favor of higher prices that drain more gold out of the players hands to encourage more gem sales.

I have 0 problem funding a company, but I do take issues with loopholes that can be and are taken advantage of.

DarkSpirit.7046:

cranked.3812:

If anything account bound TP purchases are better for all the folks who actually want to use the dyes rather than make money on them. To me, this is the perfect example of why the TP purchases should be changed to account bound.

Not really. I will quit the game if that communistic dictatorship of the TP ever happens.

That would be a terribly sad day. Sounds like you are one of the people that just login to play the TP. While that is cool and all, decisions like this shouldn’t be based on players who more than likely don’t support the game with real money.

Having said that, I am NOT advocating for what you would call a “communistic TP”, I was just saying that if anything, what happened today is a good argument for it and not against.

I’ve said it before, and I think I’ll be saying it again for years to come:

Speculation does not equal Manipulation.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

I’ve said it before, and I think I’ll be saying it again for years to come:

Speculation does not equal Manipulation.

listen, I may not be an economist, but I’m not an idiot.

speculation lead to manipulation this morning, get it right.

also, js and the crew are not reporting to their superiors on how finely tuned and balanced the game economy is or how many copper ores sold, they are reporting how gems sales went and what creative things are being done to generate more cash sales.

This was a pure speculation bubble and the only real losers major are the newbie traders looking to make a quick buck who overinflated the market and the people who could not out wait the storm and wait for prices to crash down again. One the update hits, prices will crash with everyone getting tons of free dyes from duplicate dyes.

If anything this was a lesson on how hard it is to speculate and manipulate prices. Within 30 minutes of the blog post going live the price had shot up, shot down and stabilized.

I ended up breaking even, due to 2 speculation successes and 2 speculation failures… There were just too many people buying and selling to keep up. There isn’t enough time to think during those mad rushes, the real speculators bought up the dyes weeks ago and actually helped temper the craze when they sold this morning.

oh another I want anet to spoon feed me everything that will make me money thread. If people posted the dyes and didn’t get to pull them, then they got what they posted them for. They made money off of them. If people weren’t smart enough to look ahead and think for a few a bit they should wait to see what is up with dye. That is on them and them alone.
It sure gets old seeing all the QQ about tp, people don’t play the market smart, so they need a scapegoat. (ANET) Heaven forbid someone actually be responsible for THEIR own decisions.

cranked.3812:

DarkSpirit.7046:

cranked.3812:

If anything account bound TP purchases are better for all the folks who actually want to use the dyes rather than make money on them. To me, this is the perfect example of why the TP purchases should be changed to account bound.

Not really. I will quit the game if that communistic dictatorship of the TP ever happens.

That would be a terribly sad day. Sounds like you are one of the people that just login to play the TP. While that is cool and all, decisions like this shouldn’t be based on players who more than likely don’t support the game with real money.

Having said that, I am NOT advocating for what you would call a “communistic TP”, I was just saying that if anything, what happened today is a good argument for it and not against.

What makes you think I don’t support the game with real money?

What happened today is as expected. No matter when they choose to report the blog, there will always be people somewhere in the world who is sleeping/working or just not around to login. They can’t please everyone. So deal with it.

last post of the night because I’m feeling negative.

for the record, I have no problem with John Smith and the team doing their job, I do have an issue with loopholes like this morning. additionally, I don’t like the 3rd party tp monitoring programs that encourage these behaviors either. these two things on the economic side add more reasons to not fork over real cash to support the game.

have a good night all!

You know what brought the price up? The fear of thousands of normal players. Not speculators,not manipulators. Despite what you might think it is impossible for some of the best traders to manipulate the unid dye market let alone bring prices up to 1g.

So what brought the price down? Speculators who have been hoarding dyes to sell at such an opportunity or knrew how to quickly generate supply in order to make a profit. The massive flood of supply stabilized the price (as you said) thanks to these people. You are upset at the wrong people.

Some speculators, yes. But I suspect the massive supply flood was more due to hundreds (thousands?) of players like me who had excess Laurels, saw an opportunity and seized it.

OMG!
If something is too expensive for what you want to pay, find it through regular play; if something is less expensive than what you want to sell for, hold to the item until the price is what you find right…
I do not play the TP, but this is basic economic reality.
If I sell a collection piece in real life one day, and that for some reason the price goes up two days later, well, I’m the one losing up, but I did sell it at the price that was fair at the time, so it was a win for me at the time, and it’s a win for the guy who bought it from me…
it couldn’t be known that the dies would get harder to acquire, but it was somewhat expected that Anet would do something with dies… some of my guildies did sell their stock, thinking that they would be account bound, thus doubles would be useless; some did gather some stock, thinking that Anet would make up for doubles, some did nothing…

Why pay real money for a game anyway? There is plenty of ways to make gold in game, and this is one of the few games that allows to buy paying currency with in-game money… Not enough gold to buy all goodies? Well, that’s life… Can’t have everything…

Don’t understand what the QQing is about.

Market manipulation is what happened a few weeks/months ago… Someone bought all rams from 1.x silver to 5 silvers, and sold them out at 5+ silvers…
That is a market manipulation that was kitten WvWers.
Speculation is not manipulation…

Overall price increase is normal inflation. I do find the game pretty well adapts to it, overall, we get more loot (from champions and dungeons and normal WvW, for example) which balances the fact that things are more expensive. Now, if gold drops would be the same as it was at the beginning of the game (when 50 gold was a great deal? I remember when WvW gave no money; now, even PvP gives some silver), rise in prices would hit non paying customers way hard. With overall loot increase? I’d say the same thing on the free market takes overall approximately the same time to acquire, while things in the regulated market (things sold by NPCs) are still the same price, untouched by inflation.

Overall, I’d say with things that are taken off BLTC (tranmutation things, amongst others), Anet might lose in the short time, which would of course be offset by whatever new things are to be out when all the new sytems are in place.

Now, If things bought off TP would be account bound, how would one make the difference between loot items and TP items? one would have two stacks of unidentified dyes (account bound and not?)
As well make everything account bound and take off TP…

TL;DR
Things have the value we give them.
Does not matter if the value goes up or down, sometimes we win, sometimes we lose.
As prices go up, so does the possibility to get gold in game, so it’s balanced.

It seems to me like someone spent a lot of money on the cash shop in hopes that they would get a bunch of enamel dyes, and got a bunch of crappy common dyes no one buys (much).

I spent exactly 500 gems on the “enamel dyes” and got crap for my efforts, that was when I decided that it was a waste of money.

Swagger.1459:

last post of the night because I’m feeling negative.

for the record, I have no problem with John Smith and the team doing their job, I do have an issue with loopholes like this morning. additionally, I don’t like the 3rd party tp monitoring programs that encourage these behaviors either. these two things on the economic side add more reasons to not fork over real cash to support the game.

have a good night all!

I dont see how this is a loophole. As already mentioned most of the dyes that were traded yesterday, were traded by speculators and not consumers. For you as a consumer, how does this sudden price spike negatively affect you? You will have all dyes after the patch that you have now. IF you complain about prices being higher now for those that you didnt already have, well thats the market. Why didnt you buy them last week?
The fact that you will be given unidentified dyes for every dye that you have unlocked on several characters will most likely mean that you will end up with more unlocked dyes for all your characters to use than before the patch or the announcement. All this is given to you by Arenanet free of charge. I think thats a nice move and i dont see a reason why you shouldnt support this with additional gem purchases.

The only reason to complain might be that you didnt make any gold profits after the announcement.

Just a quick change of perspective:

A stock trader in NY, one in Hawaii and one in London……who has the advantage trading on the open market??

NONE……they all have to base their schedules for buy/sell on the market time. It may be 6 hrs earlier for the one in HI but that means they have to be online and ready to trade at 3AM when the market opens……that may be 8PM or whatever for the person in London.

Point being, be on track with the news and willing to do what it takes or get left in the dust. Just a quick speculation

Swagger.1459:

welp, hope a good lesson was learned today for having unrestricted buying and selling power on the tp anet. honestly, you need to make items account bound once purchased from the tp. don’t worry, there are enough people contributing to the bltc that items will find their equilibrium prices.

thanks for reading!

I totally agree stuff bought off the AH shouldn’t be re-listable, I despise the leeches who ‘play the AH’ and live off others’ efforts.

Kraggy.4169:

Swagger.1459:

welp, hope a good lesson was learned today for having unrestricted buying and selling power on the tp anet. honestly, you need to make items account bound once purchased from the tp. don’t worry, there are enough people contributing to the bltc that items will find their equilibrium prices.

thanks for reading!

I totally agree stuff bought off the AH shouldn’t be re-listable, I despise the leeches who ‘play the AH’ and live off others’ efforts.

You mean the “leeches” that are this game’s only source of a real gold sink? You think the prices are expensive right now? Think again.

Wanze.8410:

For you as a consumer, how does this sudden price spike negatively affect you? You will have all dyes after the patch that you have now.

People that have already a lot of dyes unlockd on their accounst will not be affected that much, that’s true. Put yourself however in the shoes of someone who will start playing after april 15th patch. Everything we heard so far points out to dyes being way, way more costly in the future than they are now. That’s even when including lower demand due to them going account bound.
Unless the dye crafting gets significantly upgraded, the dyes are going to get, for all pracical reasons, both gem-only, and costing a fortune (for uncommon and rare varieties at least). Even including gold to gem conversion, gem costs of dye packs are so high that any idea that removing dyes from drop tables is somehow just balancing the switch from character to account based system is laughable.

Basically, any new player will get seriously screwed by this change.

Astralporing.1957:

Wanze.8410:

For you as a consumer, how does this sudden price spike negatively affect you? You will have all dyes after the patch that you have now.

People that have already a lot of dyes unlockd on their accounst will not be affected that much, that’s true. Put yourself however in the shoes of someone who will start playing after april 15th patch. Everything we heard so far points out to dyes being way, way more costly in the future than they are now. That’s even when including lower demand due to them going account bound.
Unless the dye crafting gets significantly upgraded, the dyes are going to get, for all pracical reasons, both gem-only, and costing a fortune (for uncommon and rare varieties at least). Even including gold to gem conversion, gem costs of dye packs are so high that any idea that removing dyes from drop tables is somehow just balancing the switch from character to account based system is laughable.
Basically, any new player will get seriously screwed by this change.

You might be right that dyes will be more expensive after the patch and new players will have to pay more than now. But the OP is not a new player that enters the game after the patch, so your argument is invalid and off topic.

A new player also profits off the new account bound system in the long run because he only needs to unlock every dye once on his account. While he maybe has to pay more gold to get all dyes unlocked after the patch than before, he might as well spend less gold over all on dyes, compared to someone who played since release and unlocked all dyes on 5 different characters until now,

They’ll still have the option of crafting them.

Btw some dyes have dropped in price… including abyss… due to that being a possibility from the new dye packs. Should those be restricted in price drop as well?

IMO what should be done is with how they’ll be giving new unidentified dyes back. They should give you an unidentified dye of the same rarity. Right now some one with two expensive flame and frost dyes on two different characters will be given the same as a player with two common dyes. That’s pretty messed up.

Sayng TP is good because of the gold sink is like saying the plague is a good remedy against overpopulation….

Aberrant.6749:

IMO what should be done is with how they’ll be giving new unidentified dyes back. They should give you an unidentified dye of the same rarity. Right now some one with two expensive flame and frost dyes on two different characters will be given the same as a player with two common dyes. That’s pretty messed up.

I think thats a really good idea! As i only play 1 character and have next to no dyes unlocked on several alts i wont gain anything personally from it but it would compensate those players that spent alot of gold/gems in the past to color their alts.

You should post it in the Dye Feedback thread, if you care.

LordByron.8369:

Sayng TP is good because of the gold sink is like saying the plague is a good remedy against overpopulation….

The plague lost alot of momentum though in the last couple of centuries, while the TP is still going strong.

John Smith.4610:

I think if anything this was a lesson in how efficient the market is and is a great argument against that idea.

I like the official attitude towards this phenomenon. It’s nice to see that they’re treating it as a real world speculation mechanics rather than giving out tempbans for a totally predictable “exploit”.

It was really amazing to see how fast the market got moving after the announcement and how a lot of people rushed to come up with a strategy to profit from it. Some people may get offended by it, but for me, it’s just another part of the game to play which is similar to real world but where I risk nothing more than a virtual currency.

Wanze.8410:

LordByron.8369:

Sayng TP is good because of the gold sink is like saying the plague is a good remedy against overpopulation….

The plague lost alot of momentum though in the last couple of centuries, while the TP is still going strong.

That is because governments hadn t people supporting plague……

I would also argue that TP play rules would be totally illegal in real life….or even worse lead to wars and revolts…something that can t happen here.

Yet people leave for that reason.

The only thing this incident shows is how dirt poor we all are and how we are better off getting an income from “playing the auction house” than we are from actually playing the game and getting loot.

Time invested in play gives far too poor a return compared to other mmo’s.

danielrjones.8759:

oh another I want anet to spoon feed me everything that will make me money thread. If people posted the dyes and didn’t get to pull them, then they got what they posted them for. They made money off of them. If people weren’t smart enough to look ahead and think for a few a bit they should wait to see what is up with dye. That is on them and them alone.
It sure gets old seeing all the QQ about tp, people don’t play the market smart, so they need a scapegoat. (ANET) Heaven forbid someone actually be responsible for THEIR own decisions.

That’s not what I’m saying, go read all of my posts. Also, I was at the computer yesterday morning when the news dropped and the window of opportunity for mass gain was at my fingertips. I chose not to do it out of principal.

I complain and bring up issues in hopes to see the game improve, but talk about toxic. I don’t know what’s worse, issues like this being treated lightly by development or players who carry your attitude. I’m likely not going to change either so I guess the only options are to not purchase gems, skip reporting gold sellers and exploiters like I have and not recommend any friends to play. I’ll use my entertainment dollars somewhere else while milking the free2play model that does not generate revenue because apparently nothing else works or makes a better statement.

chronometria.3708:

The only thing this incident shows is how dirt poor we all are and how we are better off getting an income from “playing the auction house” than we are from actually playing the game and getting loot.

Time invested in play gives far too poor a return compared to other mmo’s.

Activities in the game world add gold to the pool of available currency, the trading post only removes it (10% per item sold, plus 5% for every item listed for sale). Further, as more people become involved in the trading post competition raises buy prices and lowers selling prices, leading to less profit per person.

The consequences of a majority of players abandoning in-game activities for the trading post “easy money” – less currency in circulation, higher buy prices for items, less profits for sellers. Eventually players start running out of money and either have to resume normal activities or quit the game because they can’t sell the stuff they bought months ago and can’t afford to buy new stuff to sell.

itsnot like that…
Most people will just say

“hey this game is too grindy… to afford anything nice i need an insane amount of gold” while anything i get Worths nothing…….

And quit the game….

That is the same stuffhappens with a highly inflated economy…

The difference?
It affects 99.999% players rather than 100% players….and if you don t consider that, you can even pretend economy is good.

LordByron.8369:

Wanze.8410:

LordByron.8369:

Sayng TP is good because of the gold sink is like saying the plague is a good remedy against overpopulation….

The plague lost alot of momentum though in the last couple of centuries, while the TP is still going strong.

That is because governments hadn t people supporting plague……

I would also argue that TP play rules would be totally illegal in real life….or even worse lead to wars and revolts…something that can t happen here.

Yet people leave for that reason.

You are right, a war where players try to kill each other to gain loot could never happen in the Mists. Oh, wait….

Wanze.8410:

LordByron.8369:

Wanze.8410:

LordByron.8369:

Sayng TP is good because of the gold sink is like saying the plague is a good remedy against overpopulation….

The plague lost alot of momentum though in the last couple of centuries, while the TP is still going strong.

That is because governments hadn t people supporting plague……

I would also argue that TP play rules would be totally illegal in real life….or even worse lead to wars and revolts…something that can t happen here.

Yet people leave for that reason.

You are right, a war where players try to kill each other to gain loot could never happen in the Mists. Oh, wait….

You can t wage war on players speculating …. afaik

TP is free pvp towards player that wouldn t like to play……(and yes its mandatory….there was even autoban BOT for people exchanging gold without it that assumed you was a gold seller).

LordByron.8369:

“hey this game is too grindy… to afford anything nice i need an insane amount of gold” while anything i get Worths nothing…….

And you cannot see the paradox in that statement? If everything on the TP costs a lot, how can “anything you get” be worth nothing?

I think the people kittened off are the ones that used to be swimming in gold in WoW and similar games where they could play the AH themselves (which a trained monkey could do, including me). Now they’re angry because playing the TP in AH in GW2 requires more starting capital and especially more brains and dedication. I admit I don’t have any of those, but I am not jealous to those that do.

If anything, the TP players are playing a much more difficult and risky game than the ones drooling on their keyboard while pressing 1 repeatedly at a world boss.

Tom Gore.4035:

Now they’re angry because playing the TP in AH in GW2 requires more starting capital and especially more brains and dedication. I admit I don’t have any of those, but I am not jealous to those that do.

If anything, the TP players are playing a much more difficult and risky game than the ones drooling on their keyboard while pressing 1 repeatedly at a world boss.

…just when I wanted to write that we finally found something in this game where 1111-warriors were not OP.