Guild Wars 2

I rarely use the Trading Company, but I was lucky enough to stumble upon a Greatsaw Greatsword skin during Halloween. I finally got enough gold to list it at a decent fee, so I posted it. Then I decided to remove it, but I didn’t know that you didn’t get your listing fee back. I don’t think it’s a problem that you don’t get it back, I think it’s a problem that there’s no disclaimer anywhere warning you that it’s non-refundable if you don’t sell the item. Having no previous MMO experience, how should I have known that? It doesn’t seem like common sense to me. So now I’ve lost out on a little over 2g, which took me a long time to get. I’m running around with 76 silver and it’s a little disheartening. I just think there should be a box that pops up or some fine print at the bottom stating that you will not reclaim your listing fee if you remove the item. I wouldn’t have clicked remove then, I would have just left it alone…

This is a perfect example of why the design for GW2 economy is trash. The only reason the listing fees act that way is so that trading can be “realistic”, with realistic meaning akin to real-life markets, which themselves are anything but realistic.

So we have a normal guy just trying to play a video game getting punished for his synthetic ignorance. All economic markets are essentially based on synthetic ignorance that is constructed so that the average person can be taken advantage of.

of course the best answer would be that you had to do some research mate on how the tp works if you wanted to sell any item having a listing fee way bigger than all your gold together…!
this really doesnt have to turn to another right or wrong gw2 economy topic

morbidillusion.2759:

The only reason the listing fees act that way is so that trading can be “realistic”, with realistic meaning akin to real-life markets, which themselves are anything but realistic.

It could exist as a gold sink, a means of pulling gold out of circulation to help fight inflation.

It could be there to prevent churning or wash trade.

It could exist to provide a disincentive of using the trading post as a bank.

It could exist to prevent market manipulation from people from posting items at intentionally high prices to try and drive up the market price. A type of ramping?

morbidillusion.2759:

This is a perfect example of why the design for GW2 economy is trash. The only reason the listing fees act that way is so that trading can be “realistic”, with realistic meaning akin to real-life markets, which themselves are anything but realistic.

So we have a normal guy just trying to play a video game getting punished for his synthetic ignorance. All economic markets are essentially based on synthetic ignorance that is constructed so that the average person can be taken advantage of.

No.

It is a listing fee. A listing fee, is a fee you must pay to be able to list the item. I don’t get how this is so hard to understand. You have now listed the item, and payed for that ability. It does not matter if you remove the object, you have payed for the ability to list it there.

I don’t understand why people assume things without researching and then blame the system. If you don’t know how something works, perhaps you should ask instead. Wouldn’t that make more sense?

There was a guy in America who bought a caravan and was driving down a freeway. He turned on the cruise control, and went to the back to make a coffee. The thing crashed and he SUED the company because the manual did not say that when on cruise control the car cannot drive itself, it merely maintains a set speed.

We do not need more people like this. You need to learn your harsh lesson and then be smarter for the rest of your life, rather then the world dumbing everything down and making a stupid society who can’t do anything without step by step instructions.

Im sorry if this post is a little harsh, but i am just sick and tired of people blaming others because they were not smart enough to ask how something works when they didnt know.

ubwcgm.2415:

morbidillusion.2759:

The only reason the listing fees act that way is so that trading can be “realistic”, with realistic meaning akin to real-life markets, which themselves are anything but realistic.

It could exist as a gold sink, a means of pulling gold out of circulation to help fight inflation.

It could be there to prevent churning or wash trade.

It could exist to provide a disincentive of using the trading post as a bank.

It could exist to prevent market manipulation from people from posting items at intentionally high prices to try and drive up the market price. A type of ramping?

This.

There are many positives of the listing fee.

Sahriah.3792:

morbidillusion.2759:

This is a perfect example of why the design for GW2 economy is trash. The only reason the listing fees act that way is so that trading can be “realistic”, with realistic meaning akin to real-life markets, which themselves are anything but realistic.

So we have a normal guy just trying to play a video game getting punished for his synthetic ignorance. All economic markets are essentially based on synthetic ignorance that is constructed so that the average person can be taken advantage of.

No.

It is a listing fee. A listing fee, is a fee you must pay to be able to list the item. I don’t get how this is so hard to understand. You have now listed the item, and payed for that ability. It does not matter if you remove the object, you have payed for the ability to list it there.

I don’t understand why people assume things without researching and then blame the system. If you don’t know how something works, perhaps you should ask instead. Wouldn’t that make more sense?

There was a guy in America who bought a caravan and was driving down a freeway. He turned on the cruise control, and went to the back to make a coffee. The thing crashed and he SUED the company because the manual did not say that when on cruise control the car cannot drive itself, it merely maintains a set speed.

We do not need more people like this. You need to learn your harsh lesson and then be smarter for the rest of your life, rather then the world dumbing everything down and making a stupid society who can’t do anything without step by step instructions.

Im sorry if this post is a little harsh, but i am just sick and tired of people blaming others because they were not smart enough to ask how something works when they didnt know.

You’re right about people needing to be better informed, but that applies to you, too. The story about the cruise control is an urban legend, better known as the Stella Awards.

ubwcgm.2415:

It could exist as a gold sink, a means of pulling gold out of circulation to help fight inflation.

It could be there to prevent churning or wash trade.

It could exist to provide a disincentive of using the trading post as a bank.

It could exist to prevent market manipulation from people from posting items at intentionally high prices to try and drive up the market price. A type of ramping?

Everything except the first is a valid use for a listing fee. It only takes a very small amount to produce the desired effect. Listing fees should absolutely not be a gold sink (that’s what the transaction fee is for) and in any case should never be allowed to reach something as high as 2g. Everywhere except MMOs, a listing fee is generally a fixed fee or with stepped increments up to a relatively low maximum; it is rarely ever a percentage of the ask price. You want to discourage misuse of the service but it doesn’t take a whole lot to do that.

In GW2 a reasonable maximum would be about 10s. Anyone who tries to misuse the TP at 10s per item is going to be hurting. More than that is just gouging. I also cannot seem to find any way to modify your listings, only cancel them. So if you list too high you are screwed. At the least they should give you the option to lower your price or to sell to the highest bidder. There’s no reason why someone who realizes a mistake should have to pay a second fee to try again. Regardless of OP’s issue. This is a problem.

As far as I know, GW2 is the only MMO that doesn’t return your listing fee when the item sells.

However, all MMO’s have you lose the listing fee if you cancel the item, but the reason has little to do with economics, it is mostly there to stop people from using the TP as a free bank and making tons of useless listings.

aliquis.9180:

Sahriah.3792:

There was a guy in America who bought a caravan and was driving down a freeway. He turned on the cruise control, and went to the back to make a coffee. The thing crashed and he SUED the company because the manual did not say that when on cruise control the car cannot drive itself, it merely maintains a set speed.

You’re right about people needing to be better informed, but that applies to you, too. The story about the cruise control is an urban legend, better known as the Stella Awards.

That is indeed an urban legend — there aren’t any reported cases of people being QUITE that stupid while driving an RV (aka “caravan” in the UK.)! http://www.snopes.com/autos/techno/cruise.asp

ZudetGambeous.9573:

As far as I know, GW2 is the only MMO that doesn’t return your listing fee when the item sells.

The sadly soon-to-be-defunct City of Heroes has a slightly more complicated version (thanks to their “blind bidding” system) — a 5% listing fee that wasn’t returned if you cancelled an item.

The listing fee WAS returned if you sold an item, but then you had to pay a 10% “transaction fee” (or tax) on the actual sales price. So if you listed something for 100, you had to pay 5 for a listing fee, and if it actually sold for 100 you got your 5 back and then had to pay 10.

If, on the other hand, you listed something for 100 that actually sold for 500, you paid 5 for a listing fee, got it back, then had to pay 25 for the transaction fee.

So in a manner of speaking, no, you never REALLY got your listing fee back there — the “best case” scenario was a 5% listing fee plus 5% tax — and at least the method here is a little simpler to understand.

umm… it a listing FEE, not a deposit. I’m not seeing why there is any confusion here so long as you are fluent in English. it’s to prevent people from using the TP as storage by listing something they dont intend to sell for several times the market value just to remove the listing later… I still do that but I make enough money that I’m ok with renting the TP as a storage locker, and if the price on those items ever triples then I have a nice chunk of change that I can use to buy gems and buy a safer storage system, and I’ll get a good laugh at myself.

I want to have option to remove items in “I’ve Sold & I’ve Bought” same in “I’m Selling & I’m Buying”

I am fine with the listing fees and them being non-refundable.

The fee means that you have a vested interest in making sure what you post sells.
It also discourages people from playing shell games with the market.

B/c we don’t want a ton of Canceled-Orders manipulated Flash Trading causing instant inflation?

so the first thing you tried selling on the trading post was a Greatsword skin that’s worth 40 gold and lost about 20 silver because you didn’t know about the fee?

I don’t know why everyone says that this isn’t as a real economy market.. try selling on ebay.. you’ve got the fee anyway if you sell it or not.. ( or at least it was this way the last time i checked out )

and maybe try to google a bit before you do something and not after..

BlueStoat.9157:

umm… it a listing FEE, not a deposit. I’m not seeing why there is any confusion here so long as you are fluent in English.

What rule of English makes fees non-refundable? Every fee I’ve ever paid has been refundable except those that say “non-refundable”. Also, deposits aren’t necessarily refundable either. If you’re fluent in English then you’d know that the only difference between a fee and a deposit is that the latter alludes to partial pre-payment for some future transaction. This has nothing to do with language except, as the OP states, that there is no “non-refundable” notice on the TP. It’s a valid complaint and easily fixed.

It would be very nice if you could adjust the price of an item without unlisting it. You can do that on ebay. I hate losing a listing fee because I priced the item too high and it’s not selling. I have two things listed right now that would probably sell quickly if I just lowered them by a silver or so, instead they’re just sitting there because I’m too cheap to relist them haha

Leablo.2651:

What rule of English makes fees non-refundable? Every fee I’ve ever paid has been refundable except those that say “non-refundable”. Also, deposits aren’t necessarily refundable either. If you’re fluent in English then you’d know that the only difference between a fee and a deposit is that the latter alludes to partial pre-payment for some future transaction. This has nothing to do with language except, as the OP states, that there is no “non-refundable” notice on the TP. It’s a valid complaint and easily fixed.

The 10% tax doesn’t say non-refundable either.

Nor do any of the vendors ingame who will not refund your tokens / karma / gold.

Where will it end? :P

Where is the cancel button on the “Items I’ve sold” page? Where is the “Return” button on the vendors?

Don’t be daft.

Leablo.2651:

Where is the cancel button on the “Items I’ve sold” page? Where is the “Return” button on the vendors?

Don’t be daft.

IS this in reply to something else in this thread? Because it seems to make no sense.

Could you clarify please?

Leablo.2651:

BlueStoat.9157:

umm… it a listing FEE, not a deposit. I’m not seeing why there is any confusion here so long as you are fluent in English.

What rule of English makes fees non-refundable? Every fee I’ve ever paid has been refundable except those that say “non-refundable”. Also, deposits aren’t necessarily refundable either. If you’re fluent in English then you’d know that the only difference between a fee and a deposit is that the latter alludes to partial pre-payment for some future transaction. This has nothing to do with language except, as the OP states, that there is no “non-refundable” notice on the TP. It’s a valid complaint and easily fixed.

Pull out a dictionary and read the the entry for fee. Then read deposit. One of those is due back to the payer as it is only being kept by the recipient but does not belong to them unless further terms of the agreement are met. It gets even more clear if you read any financial or legal definitions. Fee is the cost of doing business.

If you have a listing fee then the moment your listing is publicly viewable you have forfeit that money to the listing agency. removing the listing does not remove your impact on the market, the information was factored into the buy/sell decisions of every market participant after the offer was placed. you can’t get a refund unless you can rollback the memory of every market actor.

I will not give you any further education on this topic. It is up to you to learn to use precise language, not the ambiguous colloquial mess that is becoming increasing common in modern society.

Execute, murder, euthanize, kill… your task is to explain what those words mean and then figure out why we have all four. its the same reason we have fee, charge, deposit, donation, and tax.

Ain’t edjookashun awshem?!?

I read somewhere (maybe a BL NPC) that the listing fee isn’t refundable. And also, it says “listing fee”. I wouldn’t expect to get that back, and if I was unsure, I would have watched to see if I did get it back. Very easy to test with a 3c item.

But the non-refundable fee is a good thing. It’s bloody impossible to keep something as the lowest listed item because of competition if there are no limits on reposting. You think it would be better if it wasn’t there but the change would apply to your competitors and it would be absolutely exhausting trying to keep yours at the bottom.

Personally I feel the TP requires too much UI time and administrative work. It’s so sluggish already and tabs don’t remember which page you are on so you need to find your way back. I wish we could all just post an item for a set price and wait until it is randomly chosen as the one that is sold to the next customer.

Sahriah.3792:

No.

It is a listing fee. A listing fee, is a fee you must pay to be able to list the item. I don’t get how this is so hard to understand. You have now listed the item, and payed for that ability. It does not matter if you remove the object, you have payed for the ability to list it there.

I don’t understand why people assume things without researching and then blame the system. If you don’t know how something works, perhaps you should ask instead. Wouldn’t that make more sense?

There was a guy in America who bought a caravan and was driving down a freeway. He turned on the cruise control, and went to the back to make a coffee. The thing crashed and he SUED the company because the manual did not say that when on cruise control the car cannot drive itself, it merely maintains a set speed.

We do not need more people like this. You need to learn your harsh lesson and then be smarter for the rest of your life, rather then the world dumbing everything down and making a stupid society who can’t do anything without step by step instructions.

Im sorry if this post is a little harsh, but i am just sick and tired of people blaming others because they were not smart enough to ask how something works when they didnt know.

We wouldn’t need game manuals if that were the case. I fail to see why a person without prior experiences in MMOs SHOULD be expected to understand that the listing fee is not refundable (MMO newbies shouldn’t be expected to understand the economics of a listing fee). More importantly, I don’t see how it could have hurt the devs to have integrated a one time notifier on the subject matter for the uninitiated. This is a trading post in a video game, not the NYSE.

Stahrr.1308:

I rarely use the Trading Company, but I was lucky enough to stumble upon a Greatsaw Greatsword skin during Halloween. I finally got enough gold to list it at a decent fee, so I posted it. Then I decided to remove it, but I didn’t know that you didn’t get your listing fee back. I don’t think it’s a problem that you don’t get it back, I think it’s a problem that there’s no disclaimer anywhere warning you that it’s non-refundable if you don’t sell the item. Having no previous MMO experience, how should I have known that? It doesn’t seem like common sense to me. So now I’ve lost out on a little over 2g, which took me a long time to get. I’m running around with 76 silver and it’s a little disheartening. I just think there should be a box that pops up or some fine print at the bottom stating that you will not reclaim your listing fee if you remove the item. I wouldn’t have clicked remove then, I would have just left it alone…

For future reference:

FEES are almost never refunded.
DEPOSITS can be refunded.

This rule applies to real life too.

Jesus christ guys.

Look at the date of the post.

Why the heck would you necro this thread?

Ive thrown out half a thousand gold from listing fees alone , they are harsh but i guess working as intended

Vol.5241:

Jesus christ guys.

Look at the date of the post.

Why the heck would you necro this thread?

Lol I was so confused as to why someone would be down to 76 silver at this point in the game. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

zedetach.2784:

snip

What possessed you to dig up a 9 month old thread, and then respond it it as if it’s a current issue?