Guild Wars 2

This is a question that I have seen many pepole ask and I asked myself for a while.

Up untill recently I always wondered why some stuff on the BLTP sold for less than the vendor price. I always thought that it was speculative players placing buy orders in the hopes of catching someone unaware.

Now that I have reached lvl 80 and I am getting used to the game I know why:

The BLTP can be accessed any were and items can be sold from any were. Vendors can only be used if you are in the vicinity of a vendor.

I am regularly in a posistion were im about 10 minutes walk away from the nearest vendor with the army of zietan between us. I could use the waypiont system but that will cost me about 3s there and back and we probably dont control the right waypionts anyway.

Or I am in WvW desperatly trying to hold the keep against a 3 to 1 attacking force of angry french people.

In both these situations selling stuff on the BLTP for less than the vendor price makes perfect sense. I might have a bag full of blue rubbish items that I cant salvage becuse the collectables tab only holds 250 of each item and its already full of all the common crafting mats after a few hours. So unless I want to start a new 250 stack in my inventory I have to sell, selling the item will also produce more money. If i have 50 free slots in my inventory full of blue rubbish selling at 1s each thats 50 silver so I dont want to salvage that anyways.

So I right click sell on the BLTP and if I can get anything for it “Bam its sold”. I dont care about getting a good price, the quicker I can sell for the better. As I am still better off selling for a loss than I am traveling to a vendor.

This also includes Mats, mats drop in the form of “bags of goodies” or “chunks of metal”. I will salvage this and this is why my 250 collectables tab will fill up quick, the reason I salvage these instead of selling is that they have a high chance of dropping good stuff that I want. So after a few hours I might have a small stack of mats that I dont need filling up my inventory, I open up the BLTP and “Bam sold”.

I know this might not be great for players trying to make a good return on these items but for me I see it a diffrent way. I am selling for less than the vendor price for the convenience of being able to sell when and were I want. someone buying that item through the BLTP and selling it to a vendor is making a small profit but it also being rewarded for enabling me to keep fighting.

Its a win, win, win situation.

edit:
I also forgot to put in the original post that I will harvest mats from nodes in the hopes of getting goddies like dye and shinies even if I dont want the mats.

Ding ding ding – you hit the nail on the head.

What I don’t understand is if you throw stuff up just to get rid of it, why throw it up just to vendor cost if your whole point of selling it is so you dont have to go anywhere immediatly to do so. Just put it up for the current “Lowest Seller” cost and leave it there until you come across a TP person again in a few hours. Selling it at vendor makes it sell almost instantly and for no purpose because you wont pick up that money instantly anyway, maybe not even for a few hours.

If you’re just gonna dump trash you don’t care about, either walk your fatass to the nearest vendor or put it up matching the current low price so you don’t ruin the market for the rest of us.

edit: you being them, not OP :P

@Masterpyro

The whole piont is i cant “move my fatass” to the BLTP!

Also its not about getting the money fast, its about clearing my inventory of junk fast while still getting my money.

You are right I could list the things at the BLTP and then remove them later and sell to the vendor but that would cost me the listing fee’s. I dont want to bother about that. I want to hit sell “Bam Sold”, problem solved. I will collect my money next time I am in town.

I also forgot to put in the original post that I will harvest mats from nodes in the hopes of getting goddies like dye and shinies even if i dont want the mats.

If I list some junk item for 10% above the vendor price I might not sell it, so at a later date I might have to deal with that item. If I sell at below the vendor price it is garenteed to sell, so I know i will never have to deal with it again. “Bam sold”

I don’t mean remove later and sell to vendor, all im saying is sell it at the current price on the market, dont take the extra time to enter in the vendor price and ruin things for people that could make a profit from the item. Just click “Lowest Seller” and leave it. It will sell. Everything I have ever posted from one location has sold by the time I walked to the TP guy, and I have never manually entered a price for anything lower(higher i have) than that cost.

Also I dont even understand not being able to walk to a vendor. There has never ever been a time that I looked at my minimap and not saw some icon of a person I can sell to.

@Masterpyro

You are right, I “could” click lowest seller and hope that no one undercuts me and that someone WANTS the item I am selling

Or I could list it 10% below the vendor price and be GUARANTEED to sell the item, regardless of weather someone wants it or not.

Being the lowest seller only works if someone wants the item becuse thier is no other reason to buy an item that costs above the vendor price. But if I list it below the vendor price anyone who is watching the markets could buy it and sell it to the vendor for a profit.

Masterpyro.4310:

Also I dont even understand not being able to walk to a vendor. There has never ever been a time that I looked at my minimap and not saw some icon of a person I can sell to.

In the 75-80 lvl areas you can loose controle of most of the map and all the vendors are killed or fighting so you cant sell to them. You can only use a waypiont or vendor that you control.

If no one wants the item then it will never sell anyway, no matter the price.

It’s not even possible to sell below vendor.. The buyers are unable to purchase that item. If it sells then there is a bug that will be fixed.

OK I cant login to cheack as the BLTP is down but reading the patch notes that does seem to have been implented, as it was being exploted by some to manipulate the market by creating a false value for an item.

I have done and do sell for below vendor so I have no idea what is going on. I will look into this when the BLTP is up again.

Masterpyro.4310:

If no one wants the item then it will never sell anyway, no matter the price.

It’s not even possible to sell below vendor.. The buyers are unable to purchase that item. If it sells then there is a bug that will be fixed.

Masterpyro.4310:

I don’t mean remove later and sell to vendor, all im saying is sell it at the current price on the market, dont take the extra time to enter in the vendor price and ruin things for people that could make a profit from the item.

You are contradicting yourself. Undercutting doesn’t spoil the market. If many people are willing to sell at a lower price than you, that means you priced it too high to begin with. You alone do not determine the market price. It’s determined by the action of all the buyers and seller. If you’re in the minority that thinks an item should be priced higher than all the undercutter, too bad for you. Either revise your price, or just leave it there and hope that the price will go up to that level.

I have to disagree with you there. In a real economy with competition, it takes buyers time to research where they can get the best prices and then weigh that against whether they go all the way out of town to get that best price or settle with the place closer by with a slightly higher price. The problem with the TP is that it is the only economy and it spoon feeds buyers with the lowest prices automatically. Even if I wanted to pay more, it would still give me the cheapest one anyway.

So I’m on the side that continuous undercutting eventually leads to a market that is no fun for sellers. And this is a game isn’t it? Fun is the goal.

@masterpyro
“The problem with the TP is that it is the only economy and it spoon feeds buyers with the lowest prices automatically. Even if I wanted to pay more, it would still give me the cheapest one anyway.”

So you’re saying you will willingly pay more to buy a homogeneous good? And say if it is allowed…do you think a significant proportion of the player will behave like you? And how would that change the economy?

Continuous undercutting leads to no fun for you…then you shouldn’t play the market if its no fun. I find it fun to undercut and sell my stuffs first before others and still walk out with a profit. The underlying problem is not weather it takes time to research or not…it’s on a rational person’s preference… low price is always better than a higher price..that simple.

You still haven’t explain your contradiction.

I don’t see a contradiction to explain, sorry. Maybe if you nit pick my wording, but I am only on one side of the argument.

No, obviously I wouldn’t see the price and say “oh ya I’d like to pay more” but even if I did want to, say I’d like to give those people that have been sitting in the market for months with a price that got undercutted, I couldn’t help them cause even if I entered in their price it would first try to sell me every other cheaper item before I could buy theirs.

Point is there shouldn’t be 1 central thing that is the only 1 economy. Let people have their own shops, allow P2P trading, anything that doesn’t condense the global economy into 1 spot. Problem is, ANet thinks that’s the greatest thing about their trading post.

A buyers market just isn’t fun for any seller. Why should I craft you something nice when I end up losing money because mat cost + market fees take that away from me. There’s no incentive for me to craft anything. If you don’t call that a problem with the market then its a problem for crafting because why did I waste my time getting my craft level up if I cant use it for profit. I don’t care that my craft is level 400, that’s just a number, I want money that I can spend and do things with.

Also, you feel like you come out with a profit. Sure you got rid of something you got from a drop and you have a higher number of coins than you did before. But did you actually account for the amount of time that you took out of your life to go get that item? If your answer to this is “I dont care, but I got paid” then you are not a person that has a say in this argument, because you don’t care. All I want is a functional market that is fun for both sides of the transaction. The market is what’s fun for me in this type of game and if people that dont care have a say in how it works then that kills the fun for people like me.

Masterpyro.4310:

Problem is, ANet thinks that’s the greatest thing about their trading post.

Because it is. Really.

Masterpyro.4310:

A buyers market just isn’t fun for any seller. Why should I craft you something nice when I end up losing money because mat cost + market fees take that away from me. There’s no incentive for me to craft anything. If you don’t call that a problem with the market then its a problem for crafting because why did I waste my time getting my craft level up if I cant use it for profit. I don’t care that my craft is level 400, that’s just a number, I want money that I can spend and do things with.

You just sound confused and angry that you can’t turn a profit on the market right this moment. I have.

But maybe what you’re trying to sell in particular isn’t doing well just then and indeed, people out there are selling at a loss.

Question is, what’s that to you? Who’s fault is that?

If people want to lose money, that’s up to them. There’s nothing you can do about other people. OP described a legitimate reason for themselves doing that.

By not participating and not selling your item for a loss, you save. Hooray for you!

You won’t be able to turn a profit with your craft until the people get smarter and realize they’re taking a loss.

Not everyone thinks like OP, and yes, OP is losing money objectively just the same.

Not many folks want to lose money. They want to turn a profit. You by not taking a profit loss have lost nothing.

You don’t have a problem.

Just a bad time for your product right now. The game isn’t even a month old yet. Wait it out. Let the economy mature a bit maybe?

CETheLucid.3964:

Because it is. Really.

For the buyer, always the buyer. There will never ever be a time that this market becomes a sellers market. There will never ever be a time that there will be incentive for crafting. That makes crafting an obsolete part of the game, might as well remove it.

My problem isn’t the fact that someone else takes a loss. I could give 2 kitten. What bothers me is that their decision to be impatient and sell immediately, EVEN when their reason is so they don’t have to go to a person to do it meaning they don’t need the money anytime soon, they still put the item up for an extremely reduced price, causing everyone else who clicks “Lowest seller” to immediately start selling at that extremely reduced rate, and then that becomes the new price of that item.

That is NOT the real value of the item even though people are willing to sell for that much. I have a ton of iron to get rid of, I dont believe at all that its only worth 5 copper, but im going to get rid of it anyway at 5 copper because it wont sell otherwise. Not a single person can possibly believe that iron, a more valuable metal than copper, is worth less than that.

I don’t care if I have to put something up for a day, but waiting several weeks to months for the market to balance out is ridiculous. They should have some sort of economic education before being allowed to participate or something… Same for the internet. Stupid people just bug me ><

PS: I don’t argue the fact you can find items to play and profit off of for a bit, I have 5 gold because I find those every now and then. But there shouldn’t just be 1 item that sometimes works and then you have to fine another. Every master and higher craft item should sell at mats+fees and still give the crafter a profit.

@masterpyro
First you said that people should sell at the current market price and not under cut by selling at vendor price to screw up the market. Then you said if no one wants the item it will never sell. That means buyer demand plays a role as well…if that’s the case, even if ppl undercut you, if there are sufficient demand your item will sell also. If there aren’t sufficient demand, your current market price won’t sell anyway.

It is a buyers market with things that has more supply than demand, and sellers market for item with more demand than supply. If you try to play at the wrong end of it and fail, it’s your own problem.

As CEthelucid puts it, you are confused, angry, and I might add, don’t know how economic works. Why can’t people undersell you? So the have no rights to undersell you because they value the item less? What is the market price? That is not determined by you alone… In fact, I’m starting to feel that this is all about you, you and you.

The trading post actually simulates a stock market (commodity market) in real life, and just like a stock market you are required to buy the cheapest. There was a big issue with computerized trading doing exactly what you are describing, fractions of pennies and auto adjusting quotes to make themselves cheaper by an insignificant quantity but to get ahead of the line.

The markets responded by the suggestion in the OP that dictate minimum bid increments based on the price of the stock. That’s why you see something like Berkshire trading in $10+ increments where only stocks under $1 can trade at sub penny levels.

I don’t think there should be any penality for repricing every few hours, 24 at max. You’re not relisting just repricing.

For the buyer, always the buyer. There will never ever be a time that this market becomes a sellers market. There will never ever be a time that there will be incentive for crafting. That makes crafting an obsolete part of the game, might as well remove it.

Wrong. As Wazabi mentioned it only requires one area where the supply is less than the demand. It’s finding it. This game isn’t not static – more items will be introduced, new content, new demand… as it stands, yes, overall it is a buyer’s market… wait for the overabundance of supply to get reduced.

Your solution is extreme and not going to happen. What do you think would help make you less frustrated at this system?

My problem isn’t the fact that someone else takes a loss. I could give 2 kitten. What bothers me is that their decision to be impatient and sell immediately, EVEN when their reason is so they don’t have to go to a person to do it meaning they don’t need the money anytime soon, they still put the item up for an extremely reduced price, causing everyone else who clicks “Lowest seller” to immediately start selling at that extremely reduced rate, and then that becomes the new price of that item.

If it’s too low those prices will get gobbled up quick-like and then the price will settle again.

That is NOT the real value of the item even though people are willing to sell for that much.

If it sells for that much that is the REAL value of it, personal opinions notwithstanding.

I have a ton of iron to get rid of, I dont believe at all that its only worth 5 copper, but im going to get rid of it anyway at 5 copper because it wont sell otherwise. Not a single person can possibly believe that iron, a more valuable metal than copper, is worth less than that.

It is in this paradigm so you have to shift your thinking. It is frustrating to not understand the system at first but you’ll get there in time once your anger subsides.

I don’t care if I have to put something up for a day, but waiting several weeks to months for the market to balance out is ridiculous. They should have some sort of economic education before being allowed to participate or something… Same for the internet. Stupid people just bug me ><

So wait a second. You argue that people’s impatience is unacceptable because it causes you grief because you cannot make profit… but then argue that is acceptable for YOU to be impatient… because you do not think they are as educated as you are.

Sounds really fair of you [/sarcasm].

PS: I don’t argue the fact you can find items to play and profit off of for a bit, I have 5 gold because I find those every now and then. But there shouldn’t just be 1 item that sometimes works and then you have to fine another. Every master and higher craft item should sell at mats+fees and still give the crafter a profit.

Why? Because you demand it? In this virtual economy pray tell, why is this mandatory? Why must every single item be sold at a profit?

Would that be to make your life easier? Keep in mind, I enjoy crafting for a profit but right now crafting is NOT profitable. I did the math and overall it required too much micromanaging on my part so I said kitten it and now I use crafting as a means to an end – leveling faster when I am impatient and hey, maybe I get a useful item in the process, who knows?

Be fair in your expectations.

What about a change to the BLTP system where you can only put in a buy “custom offer” 15% above what a vendor will offer? Currently the system only requires you to put in a buy at the current ’Trade – In" price a vendor is willing to pay.

I would almost never be able to purchase say a vehicle, at the “low trade-in value” dealerships pay to someone.

As it is, I’ll go to sell something, and the current offering, I can’t except due to a change, as it says “The current offer is below the allowed limit from vendors” or something to the effect…but then why havent they patched it, so that the person cant MAKE that low ball offer…

When you just want to free up inventory space why sell the stuff below market value instead at market value? Your inventory will be freed up either way.

Also, when you are not able/willing to walk to a vendor to sell it you are likely also not able/willing to walk to a trader to pick up the money, so it selling instantly isn’t really an advantage either.

Masterpyro.4310:

For the buyer, always the buyer. There will never ever be a time that this market becomes a sellers market. There will never ever be a time that there will be incentive for crafting. That makes crafting an obsolete part of the game, might as well remove it.

See, it’s bits like this that make you come off as very confused or just outright angry. I’m not sure if you realize just how ridiculous you sound right here.

I assume you’re a smart enough guy, so I’m banking on the later.

That kind of thing doesn’t help your case. It just makes you look impulsive and immature, ignorant at worst.

Come on now. Do you really believe that?

Masterpyro.4310:

They should have some sort of economic education before being allowed to participate or something… Same for the internet. Stupid people just bug me ><

Irony.

Being free to fail is an education. The trading post is very simple to figure out.

You have to move with the market, the market won’t (or very rarely) bend for you. That your craft is doing badly atm isn’t a permanent thing.

People will eventually realize that the cost of their materials + the final product is worth more then what they’re selling it for and people will realize they’re losing money.

Some of them.

If not, then you can become all the richer for it.

Or maybe materials will cheapen with time and everything will go down. Or the reverse. Or maybe things will remain the same and some folks will have to adapt.

It’s a young market. Anything can happen.

I have a ton of iron to get rid of, I dont believe at all that its only worth 5 copper, but im going to get rid of it anyway at 5 copper because it wont sell otherwise. Not a single person can possibly believe that iron, a more valuable metal than copper, is worth less than that.

Just something I thought to add about this statement…by asking a question. In a normal character progression, how many zone spawns copper and how many zone spawns iron? As far as I can recall, only the newb zone spawns copper, and the next 2-3 zone spawns iron…no surprise there’s more iron than copper in the market.

Prophet.6954
How well are the items selling at +1 vendor price? Adding 15% to the price floor is just going to increase the difficulty in selling the item if it sells at all. Your sell price doesn’t mean it will be sold at that price.

Ixal.7924
The advantage of selling instantly is up to personal preference. If earning 15% less (not losing money here) beats running to a merchant to sell my goods for me, than fine…especially when you’re in a dungeon. Also, what’s your definition of market value? The price you think it’s worth? The current lowest selling price? Both wrong. Market value is always in a flux that depends on the usefulness of the item and supply of the item at any given time. No one can tell for sure the “market value” of an item as it is not fixed.