Guild Wars 2

Me and a friend have kinda debated on Charr technology, originally, I was thinking Asura were the most advanced in every aspect, I’ve heard that it’s actually the Charr who excel in war technology, is this true?

Different facets. ‘Technology’ is a tricky one because the word implies a few different things, some of which the Charr are better at and others that the Asura are far more accomplished in.

Asura are better inventors, and have combined magic and physical principles in a lot of ways that are completely beyond Charr engineers. They have prototypical computers, even – but I’m willing to bet you’d be looking a long time before you found a decent can opener.

Charr have a better grasp of mass-production techniques, materials science and physics. They don’t do golem personal servants – wouldn’t have a clue how, and there’s plenty of lower-ranked lackeys that can be conscripted for the job anyway – but they do the simple yet effective stuff well. Not because asura couldn’t, I think, but because the suggestion of making a simple contraption to blast a large hunk of metal through a wall would insult an asura inventor’s ego. Charr just take what works and stick with it, and the simpler the better – it makes it easier to mass-produce.

Something I think sums it up nicely: you will seldom, if ever, see an asura invention with wheels.

I’d say Asura are advanced with magic based technology while Charr are very advanced with physical technology.

As Ben K said, “technology” is a tricky term in a world where magical constructs are real. But as far as traditional, real-world non-magical tech, charr are the most advanced.

So a lot of the technology has advanced and the Engineer is the profession that embraces this the most.

Engineer technology really developed with the Charr first and foremost.

http://www.wartower.de/artikel/artikel.php?id=562

Asura on the other hand have magitech that can mimic our own most advanced real-world tech but it is still magic-based. So despite the modern look an asura golem has they actually have more in common with flame legion effigies than RL robots.

Dustfinger.9510:

As Ben K said, “technology” is a tricky term in a world where magical constructs are real. But as far as traditional, real-world non-magical tech, charr are the most advanced.

So a lot of the technology has advanced and the Engineer is the profession that embraces this the most.

Engineer technology really developed with the Charr first and foremost.

http://www.wartower.de/artikel/artikel.php?id=562

Asura on the other hand have magitech that can mimic our own most advanced real-world tech but it is still magic-based. So despite the modern look an asura golem has they actually have more in common with flame legion effigies than RL robots.

I see what you mean, the Asura looked more advanced in terms of standard technology, but the charr looked more advanced in terms of war technology. Granted they both have an arsenal of weapons such as the golems for the Asura, I guess it all comes down to perspective.

DrDivine.5378:

…the charr looked more advanced in terms of war technology…

Charr society is entirely about war though, so it’s a given that they would appear deficient in every other technological aspect.

Lostwingman.5034:

DrDivine.5378:

…the charr looked more advanced in terms of war technology…

Charr society is entirely about war though, so it’s a given that they would appear deficient in every other technological aspect.

Important to stress “appear,” however, as the Charr also developed the printing press, and quite a few IRL technological advancements and inventions were generated either directly by or through an offshoot of military technology. Microwaves, for example. Really, it is hard to determine just how much technological advancement the Charr have outside of the war machine as we only ever deal with them from the perspective of a soldier.

Magically, the Asura magitech is beyond others. Physically, the mechanical work of the Charr is beyond others. Magic allows for “shortcuts” in effective technology, whereas the mechanical won’t fail if it is exposed to an area where there is no magic whatsoever. Asuran magic allows for robots without cogs, wheels, circuits, etc. As opposed to a real robot with servos and gears and whatnots.

Do Charr have ICE’s or is everything Steam?

Not sure what ICE is but most of what they have is steam and clockwork. I recall evidence of a low level of electric use but I can’t recall what that evidence is now. either way, it isn’t very prominent. Perhaps due to clockworks durability and reliability.

Lostwingman.5034:

DrDivine.5378:

…the charr looked more advanced in terms of war technology…

Charr society is entirely about war though, so it’s a given that they would appear deficient in every other technological aspect.

That sounds about right, perhaps their technology is advanced, but only in one area?

Dustfinger.9510:

Not sure what ICE is but most of what they have is steam and clockwork. I recall evidence of a low level of electric use but I can’t recall what that evidence is now. either way, it isn’t very prominent. Perhaps due to clockworks durability and reliability.

ICE = Internal Combustion Engine

Lostwingman.5034:

Dustfinger.9510:

Not sure what ICE is but most of what they have is steam and clockwork. I recall evidence of a low level of electric use but I can’t recall what that evidence is now. either way, it isn’t very prominent. Perhaps due to clockworks durability and reliability.

ICE = Internal Combustion Engine

Hmm. Well, their flame thrower tech shows us they do have the feul for it and I doubt there’d be enough room in their tanks to keep all the coal they’d need to power them if they weren’t.

I wouldn’t be surprised if a Charr flamethrower wasn’t an semi-alchemical machine using a tar elemental and a fire elemental being contained within a pair of pressure vessels. The tar elemental produces the napalm-like substance that is burned, and the fire elemental sets it on fire. It would explain why I can set things on fire for hours on end without having to reload or refuel.

However, if you run through the Norn personal story where you had a night to forget at a Moot, you lose one of their smaller runners to some Dredge, and in getting it back, its fairly obvious that the war machine is running some form of ICE, though the fuel source and the exact nature of its combustion are in question, given the magical nature of everything else in their world. I’m still betting that they fuel their war machines off captured tar elementals that they convert into some manner of petrol.

Dustfinger.9510:

Hmm. Well, their flame thrower tech shows us they do have the feul for it and I doubt there’d be enough room in their tanks to keep all the coal they’d need to power them if they weren’t.

Steam engines don’t need coal specifically, just a sufficient source of heat. That could be burning fossil fuels, nuclear fission, or a fire elemental crammed up against a boiler; whatever gets the job done.

LameFox.6349:

Steam engines don’t need coal specifically, just a sufficient source of heat. That could be burning fossil fuels, nuclear fission, or a fire elemental crammed up against a boiler; whatever gets the job done.

I admit, I hadn’t considered the elemental option. So my point was the area required for that fuel, not that a steam engine needs coal.

The asura are the masters of cutting edge tech, as one of them tells you “Asura technology is so advanced it can often seem broken” The Charr are Tyria’s masters of HEAVY INDUSTRY. If you want something produced in mass, reliably, buy Charr.
If you’d rather just get the newest shineyest tech for yourself, rather than an army and dont mind waiting 6 months for delivery of one working prototype. Or that it comes with a significant risk of budget over-runs, explosions, dimensional rifts and/or Temporal annomalies, then buy Asura.

Charr are no doubt better with technology. The issue with Asuran is that they’re better with magic. As it was said earlier, a golem is more in common with a flame effigy than a technological marvel.

Charr also do make some rather advanced stuff: Look at the Iron Legion personal storyline where you make a gun that banishes ghosts. Or some of the events: like making the ghost capturing stick.

When it comes down to it, all Asuran are doing is applying magic on a large scale. Without it they’d be no better than Norn.

Dustfinger.9510:

LameFox.6349:

Steam engines don’t need coal specifically, just a sufficient source of heat. That could be burning fossil fuels, nuclear fission, or a fire elemental crammed up against a boiler; whatever gets the job done.

I admit, I hadn’t considered the elemental option. So my point was the area required for that fuel, not that a steam engine needs coal.

Well, if it can hold a tank of petrol, diesel, etc. it’s got room to store fuel for a steam engine. Probably an easier way to find out what it actually uses would just be talking to NPC’s around some tanks.

LameFox.6349:

Well, if it can hold a tank of petrol, diesel, etc. it’s got room to store fuel for a steam engine. Probably an easier way to find out what it actually uses would just be talking to NPC’s around some tanks.

That’s not guaranteed. It really depends on how efficient what type of fuel burns and how much work the engine has to do. Factoring in weight of vehicle and payload along with a practical travel distance expectation.

Dustfinger.9510:

That’s not guaranteed. It really depends on how efficient what type of fuel burns and how much work the engine has to do. Factoring in weight of vehicle and payload along with a practical travel distance expectation.

It’s not guaranteed if they did something like design a tank with a diesel engine, give it only just barely enough space for the fuel to hopefully get somewhere useful, and then swap it out to a steam engine of comparable size. Not because of the fuel being different (since the original fuel could heat a boiler instead) but because the engine itself probably wouldn’t be very efficient by comparison.* However, it’s guaranteed enough that we can’t just take a look at the outside of a tank and know that only an internal combustion engine could fit in there with room for fuel.

That said, if they know how to make diesel engines and can get an adequate supply of fuel for them, that would probably be the better idea for tanks for numerous other reasons (which are more easily explained by just reading about why we use diesel for locomotives). Though if the fuel isn’t readily available in large enough quantities I can see how using a steam engine designed to burn coal or wood might be the better idea: less efficient, and uses bulky fuel… but if you run out, it grows on trees.

*specifically I’m referring to steam driving pistons, as compared to a diesel engine in particular because they’re among the most efficient internal combustion engines.

LameFox.6349:

However, it’s guaranteed enough that we can’t just take a look at the outside of a tank and know that only an internal combustion engine could fit in there with room for fuel.

We can definitely extrapolate given what we know of steam engines , and how they work. We can generalize how much of what type of fuel we would need. Which is why the elemental aspect is so important yet it is one I overlooked..

Dustfinger.9510:

LameFox.6349:

However, it’s guaranteed enough that we can’t just take a look at the outside of a tank and know that only an internal combustion engine could fit in there with room for fuel.

We can definitely extrapolate given what we know of steam engines , and how they work. We can generalize how much of what type of fuel we would need. Which is why the elemental aspect is so important yet it is one I overlooked..

Bear in mind that early tanks were not actually especially capable. This squashed-lemon looking thing was the first to be used in combat – successfully, even – and it was a horribly unreliable monstrosity, with a miserable range (as in travel) and power to weight ratio. It could move for almost 38 kilometres at a walking pace, and that was its top speed. While it’d probably* take a bit longer to get that sort of performance out of a steam engine (longer as in technology advancing over time) it isn’t really a high bar.

*based on our own history. They may also just have been better at steam engines when they started making tanks than we were, like if there’s not much in the way of competition with other engine types and all their research goes to steam.

Anyway…

edit: good find

your images confirms the steam engine. which brings up a few different possibilities. They have a superfuel like what we see in flame thrower tech (as was my original suggestion). They have a hard-to-deplete elemental as fuel. or they have standard steamengine fuel with a very efficient steam engine or a combination of the possibilities.

edit: I would suggest the more efficient engine with black powder fuel but I’m not too sure what “In the end” means. either it means “All in all I just put black powder in” or it mean “When I get where I’m going I put it in for more boost”.

What it does confirm though, is that the tank has room for a quarter ton of black powder. So, now that I think about it, it may just be black powder powered steam tech since that is the only danger she mentioned. And it is fueled by manually applying more black powder to the boiler.

Bathos.6341:

The asura are the masters of cutting edge tech, as one of them tells you “Asura technology is so advanced it can often seem broken”

Given the nature of the Asura………….I’d like to point out it’s difficult to tell how much of that is truth, and how much of is just pure ego bigger then their heads.

I took it to mean he was adding black powder to whatever else it burns, but I suppose if it ran on that anyway he could be manually adding more fuel toward the end.

Either way, powering a steam engine with gunpowder sounds like it would be a very… ‘interesting’… experience.

LameFox.6349:

Either way, powering a steam engine with gunpowder sounds like it would be a very… ‘interesting’… experience.

This. I think we can agree on.

Interestingly enough, most of the war technology used by Pact against Zhaitan (and the mist war golems for that matter) seem to be asuran technology rather than charr made. Just saying

yski.7642:

Interestingly enough, most of the war technology used by Pact against Zhaitan (and the mist war golems for that matter) seem to be asuran technology rather than charr made. Just saying

Begone from here short one. Your inferior technology is not welcome.

But yes, charr are the most technologically advanced race. Asura don’t technically use science, they use magic. In everything. They’ve never attempted to build or invent something without magic. So everything they have is magitech, but not true technology.

In fact there are asuran NPCs in Black Citadel that flat out can’t understand how charr technology even works without magic. That should be pretty telling right there.

Ehecatl.9172:

yski.7642:

Interestingly enough, most of the war technology used by Pact against Zhaitan (and the mist war golems for that matter) seem to be asuran technology rather than charr made. Just saying

Begone from here short one. Your inferior technology is not welcome.
But yes, charr are the most technologically advanced race. Asura don’t technically use science, they use magic. In everything. They’ve never attempted to build or invent something without magic. So everything they have is magitech, but not true technology.
In fact there are asuran NPCs in Black Citadel that flat out can’t understand how charr technology even works without magic. That should be pretty telling right there.

Magic and technology are the same thing. Magitech and cybertech and mechanotech and anyothertech are all interchangeable. They’re just new ways of doing the same thing. It seems clear that if the Asura can’t figure out how the Charr tech works, then it’s a completely radical form of technology, but that doesn’t mean it’s inherently superior.

Drakkon.4782:

Magic and technology are the same thing. Magitech and cybertech and mechanotech and anyothertech are all interchangeable. They’re just new ways of doing the same thing. It seems clear that if the Asura can’t figure out how the Charr tech works, then it’s a completely radical form of technology, but that doesn’t mean it’s inherently superior.

To the asura they are the same thing. It’s a cultural viewpoint. To the charr they are inherantly different. The Legion’s technological advancement is because they took a step away from magic and had to make do in other ways. Humans also share the distinction between magic and technology, though they have recently married the two with the watchknights. Then you have the Dredge and Flame Legion. Fused weapons are a marriage of magic and technology. Tyria considers magic and technology intrinsically separate forces, with the asura being the only race that don’t see it that way, and that is because they’ve never tried to build something without using magic as a shortcut.

Essentially, magic is using the metaphysical laws of Tyria to one’s advantage and technology is using the physical laws of Tyria. My argument isn’t that charr technology is superior to asuran magitech, it’s that because asurans use magic shortcuts in their technology, it’s not truly technology alone. The asurans aren’t capable of building without magic.

Can’t, or won’t? It’s hard to deny the asura are smart. Perhaps the reason you don’t see asura using “ordinary” technology is simply because they prefer to use their magical technology that allows them to do far fancier things?

As for the distinction between magic and technology, I’m inclined to disagree with you there. If you build a machine that uses magic, that’s technology. If it’s you channeling the magic and not the machine, then that’s just plain magic.

Ehecatl.9172:

Essentially, magic is using the metaphysical laws of Tyria to one’s advantage and technology is using the physical laws of Tyria. My argument isn’t that charr technology is superior to asuran magitech, it’s that because asurans use magic shortcuts in their technology, it’s not truly technology alone.

This is clear and for the purposes of discussions like this where we attempt to provide even vague measurements, very favorable. A-net seems to also use this distinction for purposes of clarification.

yski.7642:

As for the distinction between magic and technology, I’m inclined to disagree with you there. If you build a machine that uses magic, that’s technology. If it’s you channeling the magic and not the machine, then that’s just plain magic.

this is where it gets interesting and is entirely dependent on our definitions of terms like “technology”. We can define technology as any form of advancement that includes magic and we wouldn’t be wrong to do so. I think a big point though, is that a-net has defined it for us as scientific advancement that doesn’t include magic. We see this in the afore referenced interview concerning engineers.

So, to clarify, if any advancement is technology, then there is no way to measure who is the most technologically advanced because there is no standard starting point or even standard ruler since the different races utilize different methods of advancement. Where does the line get drawn between magitech and magic? And how big a unit of random measurement do we assign to the technological aspects of magitec without knowing exactly how advanced they are if we separate them from their magic? But, if we use the classic non-magic, scientific construction definition of technology that a-net has endorsed, then charr hold a clear lead.

Dustfinger.9510:

snip

Talking about engineers, what about the elixirs? Are you telling me a potion that turns you into a tornado is completely natural? There’s also a personal story mission where pact uses ghostfire against the undead (in “A Grisly Shipment” according to a quick search, though I doubt that’s the only time), something the charr apparently learned while fighting ghosts in Ascalon. The point is, even charr or engineer technology isn’t always completely “pure”.

I agree, if you define that charr technology is the only technology in the game, then that is indeed also the most advanced, but if that’s the case, there’s not much to discuss, is there?

(Just thought I should warn the less philosophically inclined lore people, but I’m sort of going philosophical debate mode below)

I don’t really see why magic couldn’t be used in technology anyway. It’s a bit tricky to define what metaphysics actually is, but a rough definition could be anything dealing the fundamental nature of the world. Looking at the more modern real life physics like quantum mechanics, isn’t that exactly what the computer you are using to read this is based on?

Uncertainty principle for instance; it’s a bunch of equations that have to do with fundamental limits of precision we can measure certain pairs of variables in, for example energy and time. Because of that, we now have particle-antiparticle pairs popping in and out of existence all over the place simply because they can, so long as they annihilate each other fast enough.

In case that isn’t metaphysical enough for you, you could look into the whole particle-wave duality. It turns out we are all actually waves.

It also turns out, that a good chunk of our technology is based on those theories. Looking at the wikipedia page, lasers, transistors (—> microchips —> computers, and a good chunk of other electronics for that matter) and magnetic resonance imaging are all based on quantum physics. Is your computer not considered a technological device?

How is magic different from other natural phenomena anyway? Saying you can’t use magic in technology is like forbidding electricity and saying only mechanics and thermodynamics based applications can be considered technology. Is there any reason it should get special treatment, other than the fact we don’t have it back home?

EDIT: Added the quote to clarify what I’m talking about there ^

Ehecatl.9172:

Essentially, magic is using the metaphysical laws of Tyria to one’s advantage and technology is using the physical laws of Tyria.

yski.7642:

Talking about engineers, what about the elixirs? Are you telling me a potion that turns you into a tornado is completely natural?

depends on the lore behind it but even if it is completely magical, it doesn’t eliminate all the rest of the “real tech” that a-net has endorsed.

There’s also a personal story mission where pact uses ghostfire against the undead (in “A Grisly Shipment” according to a quick search, though I doubt that’s the only time), something the charr apparently learned while fighting ghosts in Ascalon. The point is, even charr or engineer technology isn’t always completely “pure”.

I don’t know about that part, I haven’t played through it. What I do know about is the two ways I have seen the Iron Legion deal with ghosts. One uses the natural quality of iron to contain ghosts and the other uses tech invented by an iron legion member to completely destroy them and we know the iron legion has moved away from magic in favor of technology. So any other charr who use magic doesn’t negate the actual technology in use.

I agree, if you define that charr technology is the only technology in the game, then that is indeed also the most advanced, but if that’s the case, there’s not much to discuss, is there?

if ut that isn’t the case. We see simpler technology that doesn’t utilize magic. E.g.: Norn are more comfortable with black powder weapons, humans have simpler tech before the knights cam into existence, etc. As someone said before, of the playable races, only the asura don’t differentiate between magic and technology.
____________________________________________

How is magic different from other natural phenomena anyway? Saying you can’t use magic in technology is like forbidding electricity and saying only mechanics and thermodynamics based applications can be considered technology. Is there any reason it should get special treatment, other than the fact we don’t have it back home?

Well, we know it isn’t constant. Not like natural laws. And for the sake of defining terms to further the progress of catagorising the elements of Tyria, distinctions are nessesary. So whether you choose the labels of “magic” and “technology” or “Oo” and Aaa", either way there are definitely distinctions between the two ideas.

So no ones saying that magic can’t be used in technology. We see the asura do it. We are simply sayng that there is a difference when you do. And labeling everything with the same term is counter productive to discussion.

I recall hearing a conversation between two Asura NPCs in one of the crafting areas of Rata Sum commenting on how amazing their magitech would be if they managed to combine it with charr science. Actually I think we can see two examples of charrsura hybrid technologies in the game (though one is a bit of a reach): firstly are the Pact cannons seen in every fortress in Orr; the second is the steam creatures. Although there is no in-game textual evidence to support charr involvement in the creation of steam creatures, the name and the overall look of the things would suggest what we might see if an asura did actually learn the secrets of charr steamtech.

In short, as has been said already, the two technologies are sufficiently different to be able to say one is “better” than the other, however I think there is no doubting that hybrid technology is superior to either of its parents.

Dustfinger.9510:

Well, we know it isn’t constant. Not like natural laws. And for the sake of defining terms to further the progress of catagorising the elements of Tyria, distinctions are nessesary. So whether you choose the labels of “magic” and “technology” or “Oo” and Aaa", either way there are definitely distinctions between the two ideas.

So no ones saying that magic can’t be used in technology. We see the asura do it. We are simply sayng that there is a difference when you do. And labeling everything with the same term is counter productive to discussion.

I don’t think the difference is real nor is it counter productive to use a general term, we already do it in the real world. Take a ship, for example, whether it has a sail or an engine it’s still a ship just a different kind. The general term remains the same just the specifics, those relating to how it functions, differ.

Technology is the making, modification, usage and knowledge of tools, machines, techniques, systems etc in order to solve a problem, improve on a solution whatever.

I’d like to emphasise systems. Magic is itself a system within Tyria like the tides or the wind. To use it makes it technology in the same way our ancestors created simple technology by using stones.

Asura do use technology. All races do. The thing is that asura make extensive use of one force of nature (magic) while the charr are more likely to use another (e.g. chemical reactions)

sinzer.4018:

I don’t think the difference is real nor is it counter productive to use a general term, we already do it in the real world. Take a ship, for example, whether it has a sail or an engine it’s still a ship just a different kind. The general term remains the same just the specifics, those relating to how it functions, differ.

Technology is the making, modification, usage and knowledge of tools, machines, techniques, systems etc in order to solve a problem, improve on a solution whatever.

I’d like to emphasise systems. Magic is itself a system within Tyria like the tides or the wind. To use it makes it technology in the same way our ancestors created simple technology by using stones.

Asura do use technology. All races do. The thing is that asura make extensive use of one force of nature (magic) while the charr are more likely to use another (e.g. chemical reactions)

And when discussing the difference between the two kinds of ships, we also have two different terms because it is productive to conversation and exchange of ideas. in a conversation where both ideas aren’t present, the general term is fine. In a conversation where two or more different ideas are present, two or more terms is only beneficial.

Dustfinger.9510:

sinzer.4018:

I don’t think the difference is real nor is it counter productive to use a general term, we already do it in the real world. Take a ship, for example, whether it has a sail or an engine it’s still a ship just a different kind. The general term remains the same just the specifics, those relating to how it functions, differ.

Technology is the making, modification, usage and knowledge of tools, machines, techniques, systems etc in order to solve a problem, improve on a solution whatever.

I’d like to emphasise systems. Magic is itself a system within Tyria like the tides or the wind. To use it makes it technology in the same way our ancestors created simple technology by using stones.

Asura do use technology. All races do. The thing is that asura make extensive use of one force of nature (magic) while the charr are more likely to use another (e.g. chemical reactions)

And when discussing the difference between the two kinds of ships, we also have two different terms because it is productive to conversation and exchange of ideas. in a conversation where both ideas aren’t present, the general term is fine. In a conversation where two or more different ideas are present, two or more terms is only beneficial.

As i mentioned the general term stays the same. Of course we need specific words for differing forms of technology, even if it’s a similar type but thats not what we’re discussing though, is it? We’re discussing the general terms, not specific ones. Thus the use of the word ‘technology’ which covers a huge range of things from a simple hut to a tank.

My claim is that the use of magic is technology.

I think we’re in a bit of a peculiar situation in discussing this. We see a huge distinction because magic isn’t real but we should be looking at it like it’s electromagnetism or another force because in Tyria that is exactly what it is.

sinzer.4018:

As i mentioned the general term stays the same. Of course we need specific words for differing forms of technology, even if it’s a similar type but thats not what we’re discussing though, is it? We’re discussing the general terms, not specific ones. Thus the use of the word ‘technology’ which covers a huge range of things from a simple hut to a tank.

My claim is that the use of magic is technology.

I think we’re in a bit of a peculiar situation in discussing this. We see a huge distinction because magic isn’t real but we should be looking at it like it’s electromagnetism or another force because in Tyria that is exactly what it is.

Now that it’s clear what you are discussing. I’ll tell you what I’m discussion. Then we’ll se if we are even discussing the same thing. I’m discussing two different ideas. And in discussing those ideas, I chose to use the terms that a-net applied to the distinctions between those ideas. So as I already stated, wether you call it magic and technology or “oo” and aaa", there is a distinct difference.

As I said a few posts up : “We can define technology as any form of advancement that includes magic and we wouldn’t be wrong to do so. I think a big point though, is that a-net has defined it for us as scientific advancement that doesn’t include magic. We see this in the afore referenced interview concerning engineers.”

edit: I think the problem with trying to equate magic to any natural scientific force in the universe is that the study and practice of metamystics isn’t necessarily subject to any of the “other” natural forces. Where as other sciences are and depend on those same rules.

It’s like comparing rock/paper/sisscors. They’re all at the same tier but neither of the, are necessarily 100% inferior to the other.

The Charr haven’t blown up any planets with the grounded Death Star they live on yet and all their power is based on steam and combustion. The Asura have torn a hole in reality itself with a reactor powered purely with the element of CHAOS.

That, and the Asura basically make a living out of defying nature’s forces, Rata Sum and whatnot. I can’t help but think that they’re on a higher plane than the Charr, at least for now.

I hate when people try to say Asura technology isnt really technology, its magic.
That would be like trying to say anything, (in the real world) that uses electricity isn’t technology. Just because it uses a different power source does not mean its still not technology.

They clearly use tech thats powered by magic, just as our computers and phones are powered by electricity.
If they cast a spell to make something levitate thats magic. Creating a device that feeds off ambient magic energy to levitate, thats technology. And thats the difference, for me at least.

Even the sylvari’s plant turrets, walls, and buildings, I would say falls under tech. They dont cast a spell and it appears. they create a seed that will grow into what they want.

XelNigma.6315:

I hate when people try to say Asura technology isnt really technology, its magic.

To be fair, this is the distinction a-net has given us. so while magitech can be lumped into technology because it is some form of advancement, it seems a-net has separated magitech from their definition of technology. So while a golem will may fa;; apart when it’s magic is cut off, so will a flame legion effigy. compared to effigies, golems are just fancier sticks tied together with fancier ropes.

and the study of metamystics may be wholly seperate from all the other natural laws in the univers. Unlike powersources like electricity that work within those same laws.

Lets look at Dynamistician Agent Xinn.

“I’m a dynamistician. I see the currents within you, and you’re not a messenger. Fight me. I wish to experience the ebb and flow of your energies – both the dark and the light.”

This seems to indicate that magic is closer to our own RL ideas of classic ley lines and mystic energies that don’t seem to be subject to known natural laws.

I haven’t posted here in a while, but I felt like weighing in. Why not?

The distinction that many people don’t understand is that the divide between the asura and the charr isn’t at all dissimilar to the divide between religion/mysticism and science. Jesus turned water into wine via some pseudomystical means, via some power granted his patron god. This is obviously different to modern wine production methods, as we don’t rely on a divinity in order to power us.

If the power of the gods drained away from Tyria tomorrow, the asura would be helpless, as their very nature is magical, their very intellect may be related to the magical energies they channel. Whereas anything constructed by the charr would continue to work. This is why, according to known definitions, the asura have something more akin to magical reality-bending, whereas the charr have proper technology.

The asura being magical beasts is also betrayed by how inefficient their creations are. Often, their experiments will fail (such as fire elemental-based reactors exploding, or golems going rogue, or opening planes to other realities which they then lose control of, or levitation generators draining life from the land for reasons which are completely unknown to them) due to the chaotic nature of magic. Very little the asura have made is capable of being mass produced. Even if someone were to cite the golems, I’d point out again that a golem could become self-aware at any time, or could explode at any time. They’re just quietly hoping that won’t happen.

Whereas when the charr create a form of technology, they are infallible in reproducing that technology. Furthermore, their intellect for real world systems means that as soon as any form of technology has been prototyped, they can roll it out via mass production.

Let’s look at an example.

An asura could create a magitech arcane-thrower. This might work, for a time. But it also has the potential to turn its user into a toad, or it might start spewing black holes at some point for no given reason, or it might even become sapient if certain crystals are used in its creation. It’s just luck whether it’ll remain stable.

The charr can mass-produce flamethrowers and have no stability issues, due to that their means are via proper technology, not magitech.

Ultimately, whilst the feats of an asura might seem impressive, you have to look at it from a Discworld perspective. It’s the aspect of magic itself having fun with the asura and using them as puppets, but magic is a truly chaotic thing. Their new food replicator could just as easily replicate ancient dragons as the food they desire, which makes the asura very dangerous indeed.

Whereas charr technology is as stable and reliable as real-world tech and will only improve in time. You have one charr in the Citadel who wants to use electricity to power things, even. So they have the smarts for proper application of real technology, whereas the asura are essentially the puppets of the aspect of magic.

I’d rather stand around a bunch of charr tanks than an asura air purifier, personally. I’d feel safer.

The best way I’ve seen it out is Asura tech is like gnomish tech, it’s normally very useful for one specific situation and can’t do much else, and as such isn’t really produced a lot, where charr tech is like goblin tech, it’s useful in a large amount of situations and can be mass produced (for profit or in this case warfare) with ease.

@Durzlla

When it doesn’t blow up in their faces, at least, which also carries the gnome analogy further. Since asura tech is likely to do just that. Pretty much any quest involving an asura involves technology that’s blown up, gone rogue, or is threatening life as we know it. Even in the asura personal storyline, where a mad dictator of an alternate reality almost gains access to reality prime.

So, it’s fair to say that they make one-use devices which may or may not actually work for that one use. Most often it seems the latter comes into play. Whereas, according to both lore and in-game, the charr tend to blueprint, prototype, and thoroughly test something until it has relevant uses, and then it’s mass produced. The charr are basically the closest thing Tyria has to real world human technology.

clears throat I think you misspelled Asura, as we are clearly the most technologically advanced.

Magically advanced, maybe. But considering the fact you can’t properly mass-produce simple machines on a large scale, I’m inclined to disagree.

And about the Charr’s lack of inclination for magic; Do note that the Iron Legion isn’t as biased against Magic as say, Blood Legion, if it allows certain innovations that can bypass the limits of just material engineering. Play through the Iron Legion storyline, and your character eventually builds a Ghostfire Bore rifle that can dissipate ghosts in a significantly more efficient way than conventional weapons. That, and don’t forget the ghost containment devices as well as the Ghostfire munitions (which turn out to be generally powerfull overall, not just ghosts) as well.

Now that I think about it, I dont think asura tech is unstable because its based on magic. Only time any thing blows up is when it gets overloaded. It seems most of the time the reason the asura devices backfire, explode or otherwise fail its because the asura cut corners on making it.

Example, theres an event where an asura is trying to increase the intelligence of an ettin. It works but only for a moment, While the ettin is intelligent it tries to explain to the asura that if she used a serum and injected the ettin instead, it would have prevented the resulting back-fire where the ettin grows large and hostile.

Another would be the group event with the FE. The golem’s storage cell was full, but she pushed it to keep absorbing, resulting it it overloading and creating the massive fire element.

In the end, the asura tech and experiments fail a lot because the asura are very reckless. Not because the magic used to power the tech is unstable.