Guild Wars 2

There was a thread for the Sylvari; about how it seemed like there were non-stop numbers of same-sex pairings, and how this was a valid and accepted part of Sylvari customs.

But what about the other races? I’m kind of interested in doing a study, regarding all the playable races and their stances/sexuality. I thought I’d start off with the hardest one, given how tough and militaristic the Charr are.

Have any same-sex couples been spotted or hinted at in-game? I’m curious as to how the Charr would react to something like this. There is some speculation, given they’re based on Romans/Spartans.

There’s a charr female at that iron legion water processing plant in diessa who talks about her (female) mate having been killed by flame legion. It was actually pretty depressing what she described. I hung around to defend the place a few times after that, feeling guilty that it always seems to be ignored.

Judging by nature, same sex couples between the other four races are uncommon, but more common than real humans. Charr don’t often mate for life, so a typical same sex charr couple would likely just have sex, leave, find someone else, repeat, like a straight charr would.

There is a couple talking near the Black Citadel entrance about going to grab a drink.

@Lame – I remember that!

Really though there are several hidden throughout the game or rather not hidden. The game customs put in place do not treat it like we do in real life. It is nothing special of note so there are no signs pointing to it, no hate groups, etc. You just have to stop and talk to a few npc’s or even listen to their conversations.

Is really just a casual every day part of life. Kinda wish the real world was like that a lil more often.

LameFox.6349:

There’s a charr female at that iron legion water processing plant in diessa who talks about her (female) mate having been killed by flame legion. It was actually pretty depressing what she described. I hung around to defend the place a few times after that, feeling guilty that it always seems to be ignored.

I am sure that in this case, the word “mate” is used as in the meaning of “friend”.

Red Jay.2516:

LameFox.6349:

There’s a charr female at that iron legion water processing plant in diessa who talks about her (female) mate having been killed by flame legion. It was actually pretty depressing what she described. I hung around to defend the place a few times after that, feeling guilty that it always seems to be ignored.

I am sure that in this case, the word “mate” is used as in the meaning of “friend”.

Could be, but it didn’t seem like it.

Red Jay.2516:

LameFox.6349:

There’s a charr female at that iron legion water processing plant in diessa who talks about her (female) mate having been killed by flame legion. It was actually pretty depressing what she described. I hung around to defend the place a few times after that, feeling guilty that it always seems to be ignored.

I am sure that in this case, the word “mate” is used as in the meaning of “friend”.

That’s like saying the men seeking men ads in classifieds are for men who want golf partners.

I’ve never heard a Charr use the term mate as friend. Given their animalistic nature, it’s the perfect word to describe significant other.

Some of the conversations in the black citadel point to little attachment to mates, or a preference to not get close. The pair of blood legion soldiers who talk about when they were in the shiverpeaks and a charr that gets rebuffed by an old flame, for example. I would imagine that the risk of becoming romantically entangled with someone who will be in harms way a good deal of the time makes emotional attachment difficult.

Agreed Numot. And beside that, the warband has to come first. If you’re bedding an outsider, you absolutely can’t let your attachment to them get in the way of that primary loyalty to your brothers and sisters. If your bedding a ’band-mate, you gotta keep it low and professional, because favouritism could wreck the whole group.

It’s one reason charr are interesting, IMO, because this is a refreshing departure from ZOMG Twoo Wuv obsessions. :p

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_the_militaries_of_ancient_Greece
Since charr army contains both males and females, there could be made hetero bounds (hom_o are also viable). But since they are all ferocious soldiers, or at least militiant civilians, they won’t walk around hand in hand.

I think there’s a charr cub somewhere in black citadel who hints at having two fathers. He says something along the lines of “I miss Daddy.” and a nearby male charr says “I know, son, he’ll be back soon”. The older charr could be calling the cub ‘son’ as an affectionate term though, so it doesn’t necessarily mean anything, but I guess that’s up for interpretation.

Given that they are so militaristic, I would assume that Charr value breeding and keeping their numbers up. Homosexual pairings probably happen, but aren’t as prolific as the Sylvari.

Lifelike.5862:

Given that they are so militaristic, I would assume that Charr value breeding and keeping their numbers up.

This would actually be pretty easy for them. Given the fahrars, their females are free to breed more often without needing to cope with raising multiple offspring. Compared to humans they could probably get by with a lower % of the population breeding.

Lifelike.5862:

I think there’s a charr cub somewhere in black citadel who hints at having two fathers. He says something along the lines of “I miss Daddy.” and a nearby male charr says “I know, son, he’ll be back soon”. The older charr could be calling the cub ‘son’ as an affectionate term though, so it doesn’t necessarily mean anything, but I guess that’s up for interpretation.

I remember that conversation! I thought it odd at the time that they sounded so much like a typical family unit when I was under the impression that Charr parents basically give off their cub to the fahrar as soon as it is weaned. However, if you talk to the Cubminder outside of the Black Citadel in Plains of Ashford, her dialogue seems to suggest that Charr parents do raise their children (either together or separately) for a few years after they are born, before the cubs are sent to the fahrar.

Then again, it’s also entirely possible that in the 250 years since EotN, more and more Charr have become exposed to alternate methods of companionship and child-rearing and some might choose to abandon the fahrar-system altogether, particularly gladiums who leave/renounce Charr society as a whole and go to live among other races.

Then again, it’s also entirely possible that in the 250 years since EotN, more and more Charr have become exposed to alternate methods of companionship and child-rearing and some might choose to abandon the fahrar-system altogether, particularly gladiums who leave/renounce Charr society as a whole and go to live among other races.

Funny that you mention this, because there is a Charr couple in Lion’s Arch that have this discussion. Dad wants to train their cub at home, but mom is worried that without warband mates and the bonds that are forged from them, that the quality of training won’t be as good as typical fahrar training. Ultimately they decide to try and start a fahrar of their own and invite children from the other races to join since there are so few charr cubs of the same age as theirs in Lion’s Arch. Or something to that effect. Its been a while since I’ve heard that conversation and I may have gotten some of the details wrong.

I also love how Anet isn’t freaking out and deleting this thread because of its topic. I really like seeing open discussions like this on this topic where everyone is allowed to discuss it in a mature manner. I never understood, especially in RL, why there are people that freak out whenever topics like this come up.

Kravick.4906:

I also love how Anet isn’t freaking out and deleting this thread because of its topic.

That would be silly… they put this stuff in there to begin with.

Chars motto on relationships: “Hit it and quit it”

Maybe this is just me, but I kinda see my Charr as poly-amorous. But, then again, maybe that’s just me over-romanticizing the bonds of bandmates.

Red Jay.2516:

I am sure that in this case, the word “mate” is used as in the meaning of “friend”.

That’s the sum of it. You give people an inch and they carve a mile.

well charr mainly mate to reproduce, its rare for them to have romantic feeling but not impossible and homosexuality can be found in any species sooo lol

CETheLucid.3964:

Red Jay.2516:

I am sure that in this case, the word “mate” is used as in the meaning of “friend”.

That’s the sum of it. You give people an inch and they carve a mile.

I’m now actually quite sure this is not the case, as I’ve heard NPC’s using ‘mate’ in a sexual partner sense since then. One easy to find example was just outside the gate from the Citadel into Ashford; down the first ramp to the right, a male charr talking to a nearby female mentions his ‘mate’ took their cub to a fahraar recently, and says he will ‘miss it’.

The only other sense I’ve heard used is ’band mate, (as in warband. It seems to be either ’band mate or warband member depending I suppose on formality).

Only time Charr use the word mate for friend is ‘bandmate. I’ve heard that NPC dialogue, but never heard it used in a non-sexual-partner kind of way.

CETheLucid.3964:

Red Jay.2516:

I am sure that in this case, the word “mate” is used as in the meaning of “friend”.

That’s the sum of it. You give people an inch and they carve a mile.

“Confidence is ignorance. If you are feeling kitteny then there is something you dont know.” ~Unknown.
If this is the case you are full of confidence, arent you Lucid?
Definition of mate: " Noun:
Each of a pair of birds or other animals.
Verb:
(of animals or birds) Come together for breeding; copulate: “successful males may mate with many females”.
Synonyms:
noun. partner – companion – fellow – friend – pal – chum
verb. couple – pair – marry – match – wed"
For the people of older times, mate was almost always used for the person they are married to. And, oh look! This game takes place in older times, and by animal-like races! What a coincidence.

If I started feeling kitteny I think I’d see a doctor and/or psychiatrist.

You people are over thinking this way too much, and I am guessing you are findings are almost entirely due to your bias from the onset, resulting in selectively gathering these examples (conscious or unconscious).

Besides, two individuals of the same sex can’t even reproduce/mate/breed in the first place, therefore when the term “mate” is used in reference to two same sex individuals, it is very obvious as to what they are talking about. And calling GW2 “older times” doesn’t really have a basis.

Also, Charr are more concerned about martial discipline and ensuring Charr supremacy to care too much about this sort of stuff. If anything it’d probably be more like ancient Greece where there may be same sex relations on the side every now and then, but not focusing more on reproducing would be a big no-no.

Surbrus.6942:

You people are over thinking this way too much

OP asked for observations; observations were given. Just how little thinking do you want?

Surbrus.6942:

and I am guessing you are findings are almost entirely due to your bias from the onset, resulting in selectively gathering these examples (conscious or unconscious).

Selectively gathering examples is kind of the point of the thread. I guess we could look for examples of straight charr relationships, but it seems kind of redundant given that:

*charr reproduce sexually
*charr still exist

Lifelike.5862:

I think there’s a charr cub somewhere in black citadel who hints at having two fathers. He says something along the lines of “I miss Daddy.” and a nearby male charr says “I know, son, he’ll be back soon”. The older charr could be calling the cub ‘son’ as an affectionate term though, so it doesn’t necessarily mean anything, but I guess that’s up for interpretation.

Given that they are so militaristic, I would assume that Charr value breeding and keeping their numbers up. Homosexual pairings probably happen, but aren’t as prolific as the Sylvari.

Actualy thats a female Charr talking to her cub

I got the feeling that the charr don’t care one way or another. They seem like you pair off with whoever you want whenever you want for whatever reason. You can have a mate to breed with but it doesn’t seem like you have to stick around. The majority give the cub up not too long after it’s born anyway.

They don’t seem to have to stay with a family group considering your warband is your family, but it seems that some charr choose to stay with a family group. Like that female(it is a female actually) talking to her cub about the father being gone. That cub looks old enough be in the fahrar but he’s still with his mom.

I think there’s another charr in a human town talking about starting a fahrar with some neighborhood kids so his cub doesn’t have to go away. Sorry I can’t remember the convo exactly.

Wonder do they have a.mating ritual. Or do the female charr.need to be iin heat to have cubs?

Mating ritual, I highly doubt. Maybe the ’I’m the stronger mate’ thing, if two or more are interested in a single female.. but no rituals to my knowledge.
As for cubs, that’s still an unanswered question. I believe, and this is personal opinion, they are able to conceive even without being in heat. They are feline, but they aren’t exactly just cats, keep in mind. Like humans, I’m sure the females ovulate without being in heat.. however, during heat, they’re more fertile and much more receptive to it. They have litters, (correct?) Gestation is probably about three or so months. Can last up to about four months though. Cubs get sent off to the fahrar about two years old, sometimes three, depending on whether they’re strong enough and ready.

As for the life-mate vs choosing to have many different partners, that’s simply up to the individuals. Much in the same way that some people abstain until marriage, perhaps some charr decide they’d rather wait for one and keep’m. It’s not terribly common, but I imagine it’s highly regarded as being something rare and special in Charr culture. Having that bond with someone else certainly makes those two charr a deadly combination in battle when they’re together, both trying to keep the other from getting killed. Charr do care. Many just don’t choose to live that way.

i kind of disagree with emotionless relationships and polyamory/ -gamy relationships, since playing this game and reading things, i’ve come across much more caring relationships than violent or dominating relationships (excluding Flame Legion of course)
for example you meet late in Orr story very close charr friends, Galina Edgecrusher and Snarl Backdraft, that as time passes start having more and more clearly caring, romantic flavor and if you talk to them at afterparty of Zhaitan, they "whisper" to you to have feelings towards eachother, though afraid to tell it to eachother fearing rejection.
Also there is short story Anet wrote on Charr week below article "the legions of the Charr"

you can read it from here: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legions_of_the_Charr

I believe you find it without instructions how to read it.

EpicFace.8096:

Red Jay.2516:

I am sure that in this case, the word “mate” is used as in the meaning of “friend”.

CETheLucid.3964:

That’s the sum of it. You give people an inch and they carve a mile.

“Confidence is ignorance. If you are feeling kitteny then there is something you dont know.” ~Unknown.
If this is the case you are full of confidence, arent you Lucid?
Definition of mate: " Noun:
Each of a pair of birds or other animals.
Verb:
(of animals or birds) Come together for breeding; copulate: “successful males may mate with many females”.
Synonyms:
noun. partner – companion – fellow – friend – pal – chum
verb. couple – pair – marry – match – wed"
For the people of older times, mate was almost always used for the person they are married to. And, oh look! This game takes place in older times, and by animal-like races! What a coincidence.

Cool story mate. Tell me more.

i think the real question about charr sexuality that we’d like to know is wether male charr are barbed like a cat, or if its swells like a dogs.

either would encourage same sex pairing amonst female charr, but does not bode well for two males.

IB4TD…

azmodeus.3409:

i think the real question about charr sexuality that we’d like to know is wether male charr are barbed like a cat, or if its swells like a dogs.

either would encourage same sex pairing amonst female charr, but does not bode well for two males.

IB4TD…

I immediately remembered female voice clip “Oh, it hurts!”. >_<
BTW, charr are not dogs, and not all big cats have those barbed things.

If you find the Tyria Towertalk on a German site, there’s an interview with Ree Soesbee (or Jeff Grubb) but they say that Charr is the race most similar to humans in how they build romantic relationships. (aside from the militaristic culture, they have very similar romantic customs.)

As far as sexuality, well, their anatomy is so different I don’t know how that would work. Something between cats and humans?

Also, most instances where there seems to be anything sexual going on is purely up to the interpretation of the viewer, Anet made this game for 12 to 90, just keep that in mind. Obviously sex happens in the world, but Anet will likely never make most couples blatant.

Galina and Snarl are totally banging though…

i wonder who is more dominate in sexual relation between the charrs…

Caerulei.7159:

Galina and Snarl are totally banging though…

+1

Kopa.4206:

i wonder who is more dominate in sexual relation between the charrs…

I have a feeling it’s female.. But who knows?

Rednik.3809:

BTW, charr are not dogs, and not all big cats have those barbed things.

I was under the impression all cats had barbed kittenes… Which large cats are you thinking of?

But yes, Charr are much closer to felines than canines. Apart from the shape of their muzzles, which is more canine-looking (especially on females), Charr features are definitely feline in appearance.

PCanineBrigade.4916:

Kopa.4206:

i wonder who is more dominate in sexual relation between the charrs…

I have a feeling it’s female.. But who knows?

When it comes to these things, usually it’s the larger gender who is dominant, which suggests that male Charr are dominant in sexual pairings. This isn’t a hard rule though, as there are plenty of exceptions. Given their intelligence, I’d say that it’s largely up to personal preferences whether an individual Charr is dominant or submissive in the bedchamber.

I’m more curious to know if Charr have periods of “heat”, or whether they’re sexually active all year round like humans.

Surbrus.6942:

Also, Charr are more concerned about martial discipline and ensuring Charr supremacy to care too much about this sort of stuff. If anything it’d probably be more like ancient Greece where there may be same sex relations on the side every now and then, but not focusing more on reproducing would be a big no-no.

I tend to agree with this, though I would point out that the ancient Greeks generally saw same-sex as superior because it was a relationship between two equals. Opposite sex relationships were just more necessary.

Still, sex is a sex, and a strong sexual relationship with someone is undeniably good for morale. I have a feeling that a Charr is free to get together with whomever he’s attracted to, so long as he can keep things drama-free. I’m also betting even gay Charr are encouraged to close their eyes and think of the legion on occassion, since gay Charr aren’t needed for additional hands in child raising (one of the current explanations for the evolutionary existence of gay animals and humans).

Personally, I hate when topics like these come up because I feel like we are trying to push real life issues into a game, but anyways.

From what I can tell relationships between Charr are rarely taken seriously. Many of them seemed to be based entirely around the sexual intercourse while others are for the purpose of bearing children. That said it would seem likely that the Charr PEOPLE would not care about same sex couplings.

The Charr Empire likely discourages it. With the high death rates and the increasingly hostile world around them it would be unwise to allow such things to go rampant, so, I can imagine the government trying to encourage heterosexual couplings only.

Kopa.4206:

i wonder who is more dominate in sexual relation between the charrs…

It likely varies, since both genders are encouraged to be dominant in their public lives. Flame legion obviously the females are submissive within the relationship.

Either way I say it varies and likely admitting you are submissive would be a social taboo :P

[QUOTE=446806;Lifelike.5862]Given that they are so militaristic, I would assume that Charr value breeding and keeping their numbers up.[/QUOTE]
That may or may not be the case. Given their tactics and social structure, Charr manpower has a relatively low value. That may reflect a sudden burst of industrialization, but it’s been the case for quite a while. Given what we’ve seen of their society, and their carnivorous nature, land and especially livestock may be more vitally important to their military. An army marches on its stomach, and manpower without food is worse than useless.

Agreed Numot. And beside that, the warband has to come first…
It’s one reason charr are interesting, IMO, because this is a refreshing departure from ZOMG Twoo Wuv obsessions. :p

Worth noting : a big part of why Rytlock Brimstone is so pissed about Logan is that he put Twoo Wuv At First Sight ‘romantic obligations’ (:coughtotallynotmesmerbrainwashingcough:) and orders above his warband and his duty. It also gives a rather interesting texture to the Honourless Gladium background and Rytlock’s reaction to taking the “Thicker Than Water” quest, whether you take Sesric and Vallus to have been lovers or bandmates.

azureai.9764

I have a feeling that a Charr is free to get together with whomever he’s attracted to, so long as he can keep things drama-free.

That seems to be the most vital rule. Violate a direct order without exceptionally good reason, and you’re in for a world of hurt; scrapper duty and beatings at best, and death or even warband expulsion if it was serious. Keep loyal to your orders and your warband, and most Charr will allow quite a bit. That’s going to vary somewhat based on commanding officer — if you’re unlucky enough to be stuck with someone like Volante Tornpaw or Urvan Steelbane, they’ll probably try to twist personal matters as having got in the way of duty to fit their whims — but as a social norm it’s probably the typical response. If running Meatoberfest and getting drunk as a Norn while on duty isn’t a problem, bunking with someone whose horns match yours probably won’t matter much.

azureai.9764

I’m also betting even gay Charr are encouraged to close their eyes and think of the legion on occassion, since gay Charr aren’t needed for additional hands in child raising (one of the current explanations for the evolutionary existence of gay animals and humans).

At least for gay males, unless female Charr have very short estrus cycles, it’s unlikely to be an issue in modern Kyrta. The numerical reasons for that are probably why the species was able to survive when it was throwing the majority of its males into suicidal charges, actually. As long as offspring need to be weaned — which can take a year — there are at least some evolutionary pressures to make sure there will be parts of the warband that are available for more general help.

Assuming, you know, macroevolution is even responsible for the Charr; at least a few races have been dramatically reformed by the Mists or other powerful beings.

It’s neat that so many people on these boards get so into the lore of the game and can speak to details about how the races work, ect. I never played GW1, so I’m always learning stuff from people here.

gattsuru.4712:

[B]unking with someone who’s horns match yours probably won’t matter much.

Seriously, easily quote of the day.

gattsuru.4712:

Chadramar.8156

Agreed Numot. And beside that, the warband has to come first…
It’s one reason charr are interesting, IMO, because this is a refreshing departure from ZOMG Twoo Wuv obsessions. :p

Worth noting : a big part of why Rytlock Brimstone is so pissed about Logan is that he put Twoo Wuv At First Sight ‘romantic obligations’ (:coughtotallynotmesmerbrainwashingcough:) and orders above his warband and his duty. It also gives a rather interesting texture to the Honourless Gladium background and Rytlock’s reaction to taking the “Thicker Than Water” quest, whether you take Sesric and Vallus to have been lovers or bandmates.

azureai.9764

I have a feeling that a Charr is free to get together with whomever he’s attracted to, so long as he can keep things drama-free.

That seems to be the most vital rule. Violate a direct order without exceptionally good reason, and you’re in for a world of hurt; scrapper duty and beatings at best, and death or even warband expulsion if it was serious. Keep loyal to your orders and your warband, and most Charr will allow quite a bit. That’s going to vary somewhat based on commanding officer — if you’re unlucky enough to be stuck with someone like Volante Tornpaw or Urvan Steelbane, they’ll probably try to twist personal matters as having got in the way of duty to fit their whims — but as a social norm it’s probably the typical response. If running Meatoberfest and getting drunk as a Norn while on duty isn’t a problem, bunking with someone whose horns match yours probably won’t matter much.

azureai.9764

I’m also betting even gay Charr are encouraged to close their eyes and think of the legion on occassion, since gay Charr aren’t needed for additional hands in child raising (one of the current explanations for the evolutionary existence of gay animals and humans).

At least for gay males, unless female Charr have very short estrus cycles, it’s unlikely to be an issue in modern Kyrta. The numerical reasons for that are probably why the species was able to survive when it was throwing the majority of its males into suicidal charges, actually. As long as offspring need to be weaned — which can take a year — there are at least some evolutionary pressures to make sure there will be parts of the warband that are available for more general help.

Assuming, you know, macroevolution is even responsible for the Charr; at least a few races have been dramatically reformed by the Mists or other powerful beings.

This is probably the most intelligent response to the posts here and the OP you will find on this thread. I was shocked at the lack of consideration of the Honourable Gladium story arc- it’s part of the main early charr story, and what I’d consider one of the most notable examples of potential homosexual relationships of the charr.

Considering that the charr are similar to Greek or Roman cultures, as it has been pointed out, I would expect some amount of same-sex relationships. I find it interesting that people have said the opposite, that a war-oriented, progress driven society would discourage same-sex relationships when on the contrary, the Greeks in particular were encouraged to have said relationships. The idea was, in a war setting, you would fight harder if you were fighting for and alongside romantic partners.

I’m not saying homosexual relationships therefore ought to be seen all throughout the charr storyline and how dare ANet not give clear examples! No, and I should also point out that the Charr culture is for the most part sexually equal, the statues in front of the citadel tell a whole story about female charr being allowed in the military, so they differ from the Spartans in that respect as well.

It’s my guess that based on the culture and their military structure (these two in particular because they seem to be what people are posting on) there could and would easily be some level of homosexual relationships, particularly within warbands, but definitely kept on the down-low. After all, the charr really don’t stress relationships much, based on NPC dialogue.

As for the Vallus/Sesric story arc, I think it’s likely they were in some sort of relationship. That is just my opinion though, YMMV for this entire thread. Are we looking into it too much? Hell yes, but please check the OP, looking into it is the point of this thread.

KablamoBoom.5938:

As for the Vallus/Sesric story arc, I think it’s likely they were in some sort of relationship. That is just my opinion though, YMMV for this entire thread. Are we looking into it too much? Hell yes, but please check the OP, looking into it is the point of this thread.

Gentlemen, let the shipping begin!

Xomic.5792:

KablamoBoom.5938:

As for the Vallus/Sesric story arc, I think it’s likely they were in some sort of relationship. That is just my opinion though, YMMV for this entire thread. Are we looking into it too much? Hell yes, but please check the OP, looking into it is the point of this thread.

Gentlemen, let the shipping begin!

Oh, I’ll bet the shipping started ages ago; this is the internet after all!

Same-sex charr couples? I have yet to find a male-female charr couple lol.

I don’t think they talk about it or openly express it. According to wiki most of their relationships are casual meaning they only…well you know. But sometimes mate for life too

In Ghost of Ascalon, Ember have line about relationships of charrs.

“(…). Charr relationships have all that stage of drama as well. We on occasion mate for a life, though our relationships are usually more casual, and we have more than our share of jealousies, rivalries, expectations and disappointments.
Lovers come together, break apart, and come together years later.(…)”

ANet don’t ban me for quoting this. XD Please. I just want to help.

KablamoBoom.5938:

As for the Vallus/Sesric story arc, I think it’s likely they were in some sort of relationship. That is just my opinion though, YMMV for this entire thread. Are we looking into it too much? Hell yes, but please check the OP, looking into it is the point of this thread.

I think that is reading too much into the situation, and a case of seeing what you want to see.

Is there anything that might suggest that there is anything more than “someone trying to save their good friend”? You don’t have to be boning someone to put a great amount of effort and time into trying to save their life… especially in the case of Charr where that sort of loyal behaviour and dedication is almost expected. Vallus is just taking it to a little bit of an extreme by normal Charr standards (he’s putting his warband members ahead of his legion ’s orders).