Guild Wars 2

So over in the Lore forum someone was saying how the humans had an army that rivaled that of the Charr, and that the Charr couldn’t get organized enough to invade Orr if they wanted to.

Lore Forum

Seems we’re just not up to the task because our Legions fight amongst themselves too much. Weaksauce or too true?

Well the legions do have some issues working together to be sure, the Ash Legion early stories paint this all too well. That said, however, I think the Charr have had a lot more to deal with than the Humans.

For one there’s the Flame Legion who are far more organized than the bandits and far better equipped than the centaurs. Then there’s Ebonhawke that required a constant siege by the Legions to stop the Vanguard from getting out and going on the exact kind of guerilla war the Seperatists are now doing. And there’s also the ghost army, that is an army made up of the entire former population of Ascalon that will rise again and again forever. Then on top of all that there’s the Dragon Brand which made a big swath of Ascalon largely uninhabitable and has been belching out new hordes of enemies to assault the Legions ever since. And that’s not even mentioning smaller threats like the Ogres who keep clashing with the Charr for territory.

The Charr have, all told, unquestionably the larger and more dangerous army, they just have WAY more threats to deal with on a daily basis to be sending their full strength marching on Orr.

If some issues get resolved, like the Ascalonion ghost issue, Kralkatorrik, and a Khan Ur unites the legions, then nothing can hope to stand against the military might of the Charr. That said, those are some pretty major issues… but if they are resolved, any other minor issues like Ebonhawk or Ogres would be nothing more than a memory.

Surbrus.6942:

If some issues get resolved, like the Ascalonion ghost issue, Kralkatorrik, and a Khan Ur unites the legions, then nothing can hope to stand against the military might of the Charr. That said, those are some pretty major issues… but if they are resolved, any other minor issues like Ebonhawk or Ogres would be nothing more than a memory.

Ebonhawke is a memory. That’s the point of the Peace Treaty. It’s between the Charr Legions and Ebonhawke. Now both sides can destroy the Separatists who are making life bothersome for each.

The Brand will be taken care of in some part of the future Living Story or an expansion, perhaps. We can certainly hope so. It is an Elder Dragon, after all, and that needs fixing. Right now, it only requires a garrisoning force to contain the problem, since, until the source of the infection is dealt with, the problem will persist.

The ghosts will never be handled until someone comes up with a way to destroy the curse that Adlebrain cast on his people, kitten ing them to unlife. The rest are minor annoyances and worthy only of cursory security forces, which are the PCs.

All in all, I see the Charr as being in the superior position, were a single race to claim Orr, of doing it. I decided to bring the discussion over here because my interest in it is largely Charr-specific, and the thread on the Lore board is continually degenerating into preschool name calling.

With a united Charr force, and a few annoyances handled, the peace treaty wouldn’t even matter. The Charr could just roll over Ebonhawk if they felt like it.

According to legend, if either Magdaer or its twin, Sohothin are returned to Ascalon City in the hands of the rightful king of Ascalon, then the ghosts will be put to rest.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Foefire

Well if that legend is to be believed, and the words literal… then it does not necessarily mean that it must be an amicable deal. All the Charr need is a Khan Ur to united them and put aside their wasteful civil war, and distrust.

Why would the charr even want to expand into Orr right now? The charr got most of what they wanted out of their war with the humans, and now have internal empire-issues to manage. Unless there are resources in Orr that the charr need/want, I don’t see why they would care all that much about settling over there.

azureai.9764:

Why would the charr even want to expand into Orr right now? The charr got most of what they wanted out of their war with the humans, and now have internal empire-issues to manage. Unless there are resources in Orr that the charr need/want, I don’t see why they would care all that much about settling over there.

It’s part of the hypothetical question posed by the OP of that thread. I’m a proponent of the Charr position, wherein the Charr want Orr because … well, land. They attempted to acquire it before, and the Vizier sank it to deny it to them. Apparently there is some question about how competent the Vizier was as a wizard if he miscalculated the strength of his spell or not. He’s either a diabolical madman who sank the entire continent out of spite for the Charr, or an incompetent moron who sank the island on accident. Either way, Orr isn’t a bad place now that it’s regrowing.

The racist (and most of them hate being called that because of modern connotations about the word, but I’m a linguistic purist, and the word is simply an adjective to describe someone or something that takes a position based solely on race, so it’s accurate) factions among the Lore forum have strongly aligned themselves against the Charr, arguing they have no claim to the land, no capacity to take it, and no capability to get there. They point to the war on Ebonhawke as an example of the Legions NOT being able to fight effectively. For a bunch of pro-humanists, they sure don’t think much of the Ebonhawke as fighters. And they refuse to acknowledge the reason the Charr didn’t steamroll Ebonhawke into the ground is because they lacked the political will to do so. The other Legions left Iron Legion to their plaything, looking for glory and reward elsewhere as a “not my problem” sort of thing. They didn’t think the effort was justified by the reward. Hardly an admission, as most arguing on the Lore Forum say, that they COULDN’T do it. Just that they didn’t want to do it. It’s a simple cost-benefit analysis. The cost of taking Ebonhawke wasn’t justified by the reward for doing so.

Anyway, that’s the reason I came to the Charr board to see what those of similar mind regarding the Charr thought of the discussion. I see that my assumptions about the biases seem to be bearing out.

Okay so people seem to forget that the reason orr was sunk to begin with is because the charr managed to march to orr.

AzureShiron.7658:

Okay so people seem to forget that the reason orr was sunk to begin with is because the charr managed to march to orr.

Under the last Khan-Ur’s command, yes. Currently the legions are divided and none of them really have much interest in Orr (since there’s the Flame Legion, then Branded in Blood Legion territory and ever-returning ghosts in Iron, which sit between Ash legion lands and Orr).

They probably could take Orr if they wanted (their weaponry has proven more than capable for the job), but they have much more immediate concerns closer to home. Unless you’re desperate, you secure territory before advancing the front.

Anti-charr bias does not surprise me, for two reasons. First, I guess many old GW1 players are emotionally invested in humans since that game was all about them while the charr were among the main enemies. And second, “humans > everyone else” is sadly and annoyingly (IMO) one of the main themes of many fictional settings. We are humans, so many want “ourselves” to be ZOMG special. Eh. I dislike this because I usually find other species and cultures to be far more interesting, but there you go. Most people are probably biased to some extent to their favourite species/culture, and I’m certainly no exception (sylvari, charr and norn fan here, roughly in that order).

While I can’t really imagine why the charr would want Orr as it is now, aside from pure ego reasons, I do think they’d be able to beat the humans down if the Legions could be bothered to really work together (and if all the other problems that both cultures have were dealt with). Humans are not exactly be in their usual cushy position of default supremacy in this setting, and I do see charr as militarily superior in terms of organization, discipline, training, numbers and physical strength. Every charr is a soldier, after all. The only area where I’d peg the humans as having the upper hand is magic.

As a GW1 player, I couldn’t wait to see humans wiped off most of Tyria. Some people actually liked Rurik?

Ben K.6238:

As a GW1 player, I couldn’t wait to see humans wiped off most of Tyria. Some people actually liked Rurik?

I cheered for the Searing! When I finished the quest on each of my Ascalonian alts, I sat back and relished the misery. Humans weren’t even from Tyria. They had no claim to the land. And they stole it from the Charr and then dared to call the Charr invaders. OHN. Humans invaded Tyria long before the Charr ever brought down the Searing.