Guild Wars 2

Yes, no? They seem like they are larger.

I would say that they definitely have the potential to be stronger, but I would say it endsup being a question of physiology, as both of them are very different. For example, the Charr will have a significant advantage in cross country as they can go on all fours. That also means that their shoulders are naturally stronger as their front limbs can be used for locomotion as well. But I’d say it slightly limits them when it comes to motion, as you can see when you compare Charr attack animations with a Norn’s

I’d say without equipment, the Charr have the biomechanical advantage, especially with teeth and claws, but with equipment, it’s anyone’s guess.

If the opening cinematic of the Norn is any indication, no, they are not stronger (or as strong for that matter) than the Norn.

In the books there are several instances where Charr engage physically with a Norn and are slightly weaker, but do have the advantage with the claws and teeth. Ember Doomforge and Gullik Oddsson are good examples.

Ember Doomforge and Gullik Oddsson are good examples.

Yes, but in this case its a female charr vs a male norn. Testosterone makes a big difference in strength capacity.

I’d guess that charr have stronger arms, but because of the shape a norn would probably be better at lifting/pushing high (like lifting weights over your head) while charr might be better at bringing down a hammer really hard or doing unseemly numbers of push-ups. In fact given that they run on all fours and have what looks like a fair bit of their weight towards the top of their body, push-ups would probably seem funny to them.

Norn appear to have stronger legs, which makes sense since they don’t shift their weight to all fours. Charr probably have stronger muscles in their body itself because they don’t have such a rigid spine to hold themselves upright with, though whether this makes them effectively stronger at supporting loads with it I’m not sure. It would probably be safer for them back-injury wise though.

When it comes to smaller muscles like fingers, I can’t really say from looking at them. I’d guess that running on their hands might help charr a bit there too, but who knows. they only seem to be digitigrade with their feet, so their fingers might not gain much there. Their toes are probably impressive though.

I wouldn’t even question that charr have stronger necks and jaws, ’cause… well yeah. Tails too for that matter.

Though, given the size range, I’m only talking about a roughly equivalent charr/norn.

i remember hearing this thing about Charr/Norn that back when Ascalonians drove Charr out, they tried to expand north but were stopped by Norn. This somehow suggests Norn individual is equal to Charr individual, but Norn (plural) would fall if whole collective legion, needless to say about whole Charr, war force would focus on them. I heard/red this long time ago, so i don’t remember anymore where i found this info.

There isn’t enough evidence to make an informed conclusion, other then just observation. In which case, it boils down to physiology. Muscle mass may not always be the defining thing either. Strength and focus are two different things.

In GW1 Eotn it was said that the individual Charr is equal to an individual Norn. They mutually respected each other powers and didn’t conquer each other. If a norn stepped out of line, he’ll be killed and vice versa.

In war however, Charr will win. Charr are united (at least in their 4 respective legions). Norn don’t group together. Charr wins war.

Serpent Eyed.8365:

i remember hearing this thing about Charr/Norn that back when Ascalonians drove Charr out, they tried to expand north but were stopped by Norn. This somehow suggests Norn individual is equal to Charr individual, but Norn (plural) would fall if whole collective legion, needless to say about whole Charr, war force would focus on them. I heard/red this long time ago, so i don’t remember anymore where i found this info.

I think this is pretty much correct.

The ‘average’ Norn would be equal to or stronger than the ‘average’ Charr, so individually the Norn would push them back. The Norn don’t have much in the way of organization, though, so a strike by the whole of the Charr nation would probably crush the Norn. That is, if they could ever find a way to work together without all of the infighting.

At the moment, though, they both kind of have a mutual respect for each other, so I’m not sure that the Charr would go full on attack on the Norn anyway.

Each circumstance would be different, though, since a large Charr vs. a small Norn would be a very different fight than the other way around.

In general, it’s safe to say that they’re evenly matched.

Then again, through the game mechanics, technically EVERYONE is evenly matched, to the point where if the largest Charr/Norn and the smallest Asura got into a fist fight, it would be a toss up on who would win.

actually in Eotn we were told that a single norn would challenge entire warbands. which makes sense, since norn used to be very individualistic, and charr have always moved in warbands. So why would they end up in a draw if 6 charr could wipe the floor with a norn. The norn seem to have superhuman strength, even for their forms.

Granted these two groups show an analogy to the romans and the barbarian tribes they fought, so maybe norn combat style is more wreckless, and unorthodox so it takes entire warbands for one angry norn.

Don’t forget that the norn can shapeshift to further augment their combat prowess.

I believe lorewise pound for pound a norn would eat a charr’s breakfast but a single norn would never meet a single charr in combat, and that is just in an arm wrestling match mind you, much more than just strength goes into a fight.

P.S. yes I do love the norn, but my main is a sylvari and my alt is a charr : )

As much as I love the Charr, it would be outright tactically stupid to attack the Norns. First, it yields no result and ultimately nothing can be gained. Secondly, if the Charr attack the Norn, the norn can easily ally themselves with the humans and since the Black Citadel is pincered off between both nations.. they’d be shooting off their own foot. The Charr need peace just as much as the other groups do. Don’t think that because the Charr are militant that it makes them superior. Hoelbrak is built in a corner, and backing a whole nation of Norns into a corner is a really really really bad idea.

I like the mutual respect that Norns have for Charr and vice versa. Makes for good story.

Charr are naturally predators, an unarmed Charr vs and unarmed Norn its likely the Charr will win, however when you bring weapons and armor into the equation it more boils down to either warriors martial skill with a weapon, the physiology of the two would be minor when it came to an armed fight, but the Charr would have the advantage in overall size, lower height, possibly faster due to the feline nature of the race, whereas the Norn would have advantages in being taller, longer reach etc

Other than that they are pretty much the same, raised from birth to be warriors and soldiers, i guess thats why they get along so well, the only difference is ones a 10 foot humanoid and the other is a 9 foot cat monster.

Semantics. Just because one race is a predator doesn’t devalue another race’s gifts.

For instance, the Norn have a core virtue of robust spirit, and endurance. I imagine it would be tough to keep a Norn from attaining whatever goal they had in front of them.

Not that i have read the books yet or anything close, but you guys are talking about unarmed combat and such, claws and teeth etc.. But dont forget NORN’s are able to shapeshift into Wolf / Bear etc. I myself am a Charr, and will stick to it (love the Gladiator feel from arena, Blood elgion etc). Just saying though.

Finished most the lore and books and the Norn are physically stronger then Charr.

Not sure why people are writing paragraphs to explain it lol. However, Charr do have large teeth and claws that they use to ‘gut’ their enemies several times in the lore. But strength wise, Norn take the cake by quite a distance.

One on one i’d say the Norn has the advantage. Both grow up in a warrior society but Norn grow up in an individualistic warrior society. Charr are more militant like the romans so their training would depend more on group cohesion than the Norn.

i think a good analogy would be a badger and a bear. Norn are the hulking bear that clearly hold the strength advantage but badgers are so very vicious and also tough in their own right. In a fight a Norn might be able to beat a Charr but it probably wouldn’t be worth it to try.

Ramethzero.3785:

Semantics. Just because one race is a predator doesn’t devalue another race’s gifts.

For instance, the Norn have a core virtue of robust spirit, and endurance. I imagine it would be tough to keep a Norn from attaining whatever goal they had in front of them.

I wasnt devaluing anyone, i love Norn.

both cultures value strength,so an individual would grow up quite skillfull in the art of war,tracking and hunting in either of them,so lets assumme in general that they possess similar martil skill(of course it depends on each individual but lets say that generaly they are both skillfull)
i think we should base our decision on feats shown,either in the books,game,etc,
in the norn intro we see the character lifting a huge boulder up so my money is on the norn being stronger
now were talking one on one combat situation,cuz an enventual war might goto the legions,just my 2 cents

Drakenvold.9761:

now were talking one on one combat situation,cuz an enventual war might goto the legions,just my 2 cents

I don’t understand what this is supposed to mean.

In one on one combat, even Bruce Lee said you cannot determine the outcome of a fight based always upon what you see. And even great boxers can loose matches due to things that are not physical related. Everyone can have a off day, even warriors. Sometimes, all you have to do is break a warrior’s spirit to win a fight.

As a secondary note: The Legions, as they are.. are in no major place to start a war with anyone but the dragons. They are boxed off on three sides, and the only spitting room they have is to the north. The only way the Charr are going to continue doing what they have been classically known to do, is to play nice for now. Once the dragons are dealt with, you can bet that old rivalries can and will return. As a whole, that would be very typical of human behaviour. In the game, I’d like the Charr to find a way to integrate themselves into the new society once their war with the dragons has ended, and still maintain their nationalism.

From the interactions I’ve seen in-game it seems like the charr and norn actually get along quite well overall. I don’t see them getting into any serious long term conflict without some changes taking place first that would make it worthwhile.

Ramethzero.3785:

Drakenvold.9761:

now were talking one on one combat situation,cuz an enventual war might goto the legions,just my 2 cents

I don’t understand what this is supposed to mean.

In one on one combat, even Bruce Lee said you cannot determine the outcome of a fight based always upon what you see. And even great boxers can loose matches due to things that are not physical related. Everyone can have a off day, even warriors. Sometimes, all you have to do is break a warrior’s spirit to win a fight.

As a secondary note: The Legions, as they are.. are in no major place to start a war with anyone but the dragons. They are boxed off on three sides, and the only spitting room they have is to the north. The only way the Charr are going to continue doing what they have been classically known to do, is to play nice for now. Once the dragons are dealt with, you can bet that old rivalries can and will return. As a whole, that would be very typical of human behaviour. In the game, I’d like the Charr to find a way to integrate themselves into the new society once their war with the dragons has ended, and still maintain their nationalism.

i was refering to a duel,not a full scale war when the landscape matters and the logistics and morale and so on,a plain duel between a charr and a norn,an ordinary representative of either race,in terms of sheer strenght the norn wins in my humble opinion

Individually, the norn would win in an unarmed duel if they were both good tactical fighters, lets not forget a single norn ripped out Jormags tooth with his bare hands(the thing is over thirty feet tall!). Charr may have claws, feline agility, and brains, but Norn are pretty much superhumans.

In an armed fight on the other hand, Charrs have guns and so on. No amount of shapeshifting is going to realistically stop a bullet. But thats not what this thread is about.

I would say they are fairly equal racially, the victories on both sides I believe would be down to the individual. Individual strengths, training, fighting style and personality play major parts in both races cultures.

unarmed combat, the Charr should win. Do you know any single animal, that a human-form can prevail on? The humans have no arsenal on their use except medium raw power, channeled through punches, kicks and grips.

On the other hand an animal and esp a feline, has power + dexterity + natural weapons (which will incapacitate opponent or bleed to death or maim).

There is no real argument here that a charr in unarmed combat would prevail by a long shot.

Just remember that a human without tools is fodder.

seems to me that the toughest norn betas the toughest charr. Which I hate. but the big male norn is just brute force.

Strength on mammels ist pretty much proportional to weight and size of bones. Norns a little bigger even if a char stand up straight (/salute) … on the other hand they got a pretty haevy head and due to their feline nature should have a big advantage in the open. CLose combat – wrestling style – a norn would probably destroy them. Human bites are deadly too you know…. they can kill ya (very slowly) if not treated

seithan.4823:

The humans have no arsenal on their use except medium raw power, channeled through punches, kicks and grips.

Not true. Norns have teeth and can have claws (though not necessarily as tough or as effective as some animals). If you don’t believe its possible, then its obvious you’ve not really seen what people can really do. I was in semi-professional MMA for several years. I have been bitten and scratched many many times by people (to the point of bleeding too), despite it being against the rules.

Also, i’d like to point out that there are several animals that just plain humans can take out. People are far smarter tactically when it comes to dealing with onery animals. There are tribes all over the world that have taken out deadly snakes, reptiles, mammals, and even hunting cats without the benefit of modern civilization either.

Ramethzero, the only advantage of humans fighting against wild animals is brain. But I can agree, that humans have a strong body structure (I read somewhere, that proportionally, humans are stronger than horses).

I think, that norns are overall stronger and more agile, but charr have sharp claws and can effectively bite.
In a duel, it would be pure skill test, without race advantage factor.

Brains are a massive advantage, though.

Honestly, to me the winner of the duel would be the one that had the most skill and experience, and the most desire to exploit openings. Since there is no real hard pressed criteria i’d have to assume both are on even standing. Then, the only thing left would be just how skilled they are.

But, as it was pointed out.. this is not a fight contest, but a contest of raw strength. Its hard to argue the boulder lift that was demonstrated. Though, just because it wasn’t pictured that the Charr have above average strength (which I think they absolutely do, have you seen their necks?!?!) that doesn’t mean they aren’t capable of feats of strength.

Seithan, your mistake is suggesting norn are human. The ability to shapeshift aside norn are physically far more powerful than humans. Sure a human would never be able to beat a tiger in a 1v1 with no weapons, but a norn isn’t a human. A norn is more similar to a massive silver back gorilla, which certainly could win against a tiger. Ever seen peter jackson’s king kong? The part with the T-rexes? Picture that, but halfdrunk, and able to shapeshift into a bigger halfbear/wolf/leopard/ raven. The interesting question would be how do charr react to snowleopard form?

A single Norn ripped out Jormags tooth. They sent less than a handful to deal with the “Dragon problem”. Human form against animal in this case is more like Grown man against house cat. easy win.

Actually the norn from time to time along with charr say the other is about the same in physical strength that’s why norn and charr have always had a mutual respect even in guild wars 1

I didnt factor the thing that Norn can shapeshift, then its not human vs animal but beast form vs beast.

I think physically norn are stronger and ofcourse hypothetically talking could make a lucky grip of death or a dazing head smack and put a charr out of commision.

But on the other hand, think of the Charr jaws. the impossible wide jaws with teeth like daggers and claws like sharpened swords shivers.

One good strike is all a charr needs, either to gutt a norn’s belly, severe a bunch of arteries of amputate some article.

I came across some npc’s today that reminded me of this thread. 2 norn were watching some charr fighting in a makeshift arena type thing and one said to the other something like ‘If I didn’t know better, I’d think they were norn in really ugly masks.’