Guild Wars 2

Just finished a part of my story where i get reunited with my “father” who was a flame legion shaman. He redeemed himself. So I was wondering…do you think the flame legion could redeem itself to the other three legions of the Black Citadel? Certainly it would be great having their wisdom of magic, even though i understand their tough history about controling the others and their “religion”.

The Flame Legion is just one of the Four main Legions. The other three only have peace with each other due to having a common enemy.

If the Flame Legion suddenly considers the Dragons to be a threat, or if the other three legions (or even one or two) decide that the other legions, humans or w/e are a threat then they could very well side with the Flame Legion.

If anything unites the Legions, I would assume it would either be the Flame Legion considering the Dragons a threat, or if the other Legions feel that they no longer want Vigil/Pact forces romping around Charr lands whenever they want. Invaders into Charr lands is what united the legions before, and now we have plenty of non-Charr interfering in Charr lands and Charr affairs.

Being a proud, militaristic race that values sovereignty… having foreign soldiers in their lands, and foreign powers interfering in Charr sovereignty… that stuff could very well unite the Legions again.

However, I’d have difficulty seeing the Iron Legion go along with it, at least the Iron Legion under leadership of Smodur… seeing as how he seems to be very much for having foreign troops involved in Charr affairs, having peace with humans, and trying to ignore Charr history and “move forward”.

If there was any siding with the Flame Legion, I’d think that Iron would be opposed, and it would be more of a shift towards a Blood/Ash/Flame vs Iron thing.

I agree with what Surbrus said, but feel that there is other occasion where flame legion would join others or vice versa. If anyone of legions find new Khan-Ur, of course terms to this happening are harder to come by, but alliance would hold longer than joining for one cause. I feel that after legions would have handled the threat, legions would be back to square 1

For Khan-Ur to be chosen he would have to be in possession of "Claw of Khan-Ur", approved by all legions and possibly blood relative to only Khan-Ur yet

I don’t think it’s possible at this point because of the clash of cultures.

The three united Legions hate the idea of worshipping Gods, and hate (dislike at the very least) those who practice God-worship. In addition, they believe in equal rights for women (and are far more advanced in this area then any culture in the real world). Humans are bearable because they don’t let God-worship get in the way of their common sense.

Flame Legion, however, is fanatical—using Gods as an excuse to enslave women, kill others as “sacrifice”, destroy the environment beyond use, enslave non-Charr, and mutilate their own bodies. Each of these practices is so deeply ingrained in Flame Legion culture, there’s not a chance in h*ll they’d change them.

Flame Legion uniting with the other three is like the Taliban uniting with the United States.

Now if Flame decided the dragons were the main threat, there could be a temporary cease-fire between themselves and the united Legions, but I think that’s as far as it would go.
If the united Legions want to gain Flame Legion’s magical knowledge, they will have to conquer Flame Legion and force the information out of its Shamans.

I disagree Weindrasi. The most important thing in Charr culture is victory, not advancing certain political ideologies, but winning and being the best.

If the Flame Legion sees that females can be suitable soldiers and makes for a more powerful army, then by the most important value to Charr will dictate that the most powerful option should be pursued. Victory for the Charr, if there are female Charr suitable for combat then that will help Charr maintain its superiority over rivals.

Likewise, if Blood/Ash/Iron see that “mutilating their own bodies”, and sacrifice will make Charr more powerful then they will pursue that…. besides, Charr already are very accustom to sacrifice and mutilation (they are very warlike, ignoring sacrifice and mutilation is just glosing over the messy parts of war). Enslaving non-Charr, well why would the Charr be opposed to that?… hell, in the personal story you recruit meat shields from the lesser races, and in Iron Marches there is even a heart quest where you whip (Charr) slaves in a mine.

The Charr are more alike than you might think. “Victory, at any cost”.

Also funny that you bring up Taliban and the United States as an example of how Charr cannot unite CIA equipped and trained Al Qaeda, which played a large part in the Taliban, as well as currently fighting on the USA's side in Libya/Syria/etc.. many Taliban/Al Qaeda who fought US in Afghanistan/Pakistan are fighting alongside US interests in North Africa and Middle East

I think you’re oversimplifying Charr culture. “Victory” has multiple meanings. For the Flame Legion, giving up cultural and religious values for an alliance and a powerful nation may not be “victory” at all. Rather, they may consider that a horrible defeat—giving up everything they are. For them, “victory at any cost” could mean being destroyed rather then compromising their views—whether those views be related to gender, religion, ethics, or otherwise.

Also, although the Charr are warlike, they are evolving culturally and gaining new ideas regarding warfare and ethics. In large part, the united Legions have moved beyond slavery and inhumane sacrifice. Legion discipline is still harsh, but it is far less brutal then it used to be in Guild Wars 1. (Note the mine slaves you mentioned are only temporarily there, being punished for crimes. They get out after serving their time.) At any rate, going backwards culturally for the promise of power would not be a victory in the eyes of some, but a defeat.

At the end of the day, “victory at any cost” could mean any number of things, and I bet the Charr legions would be divided a hundred different ways on just what the meaning is. That in itself is going to make uniting near-impossible. Getting a Khan-Ur among the united Legions is a lot easier then joining with Flame Legion, and they haven’t even managed that in hundreds of years.

Maybe an alliance could be made one day, but I imagine the Khan Ur would have to come first, and that’s far from happening at this point in time.

Doesn’t the Flame Legion do what it does for power? I wouldn’t think that they would be o attached to culture, as their culture is a means to an ends. To them, seeking a higher power to lead them to “victory” is primarily about power, not because they have some sort of sentimental values for religion. When they first started seeking gods, it was about power and the ability to defeat their foes. I don’t really see how a couple hundred years is going to make the Flame Legion completely separated, never again to be united with the other legions.

The same lust for power is probably responsible for their role for females, as protecting females from rivals and danger so that they can focus on producing and raising offspring is very much normal in both the animal kingdom and warlike cultures throughout human history (in the real world). If female Charr are really more useful on the battlefield, then in time it would become more apparent, and if the Flame Legion really do lust for power, then there is no real reason not to accept females into more dangerous roles as it would result in a stronger, more powerful military.

And again with sacrifices and all, again that is about power. If the Flame Legion determined that magic using sacrifice wasn’t the best way to gain power to ensure victory, then there would be no reason to continue it.

I am not sure if the Charr have grown as soft as you may suggest. Perhaps they have, but in that case they are giving up a great amount of what makes them Charr, and their history. If the Charr truly have grown soft and are more concerned about advocating certain political ideologies than they are about being the dominant force in the land, and proving their supremacy, then they have already given up on striving for victory…. and the opening scene for the Charr would look even more like propaganda than it already does.

Personally, I hope that the Charr aren’t turning into softies more concerned with political ideologies and propaganda than they are concerned with being kittenes, and kicking kitten in the name of their pride and sovereignty.

The Flame Legion Shamans do what they do for power, that’s true. But being obsessed with power doesn’t always allow you to see things clearly. Even if putting women in the armies would make Flame Legion more powerful on the battlefield, doing so means giving up the power Flame Legion men have over Flame Legion women—and after holding that particular power so long, giving it up would be very challenging for the men. Essentially, it would mean giving up personal power for the good of the Legion. As we both know, people (charr included) are greedy, flawed creatures, and giving up personal power for the good of the whole isn’t easy for anybody.

Concerning the soldiers and general population of Flame Legion, they are very devout. Many of the Shamans only use religion to stay in control, but for the lower parts of society, Gaheron is God and their faith is a real thing. So I’d say it could be very sentimental. That, and the same personal power VS greater good conflict comes in.

All in all, you’re right that there is a clear path to victory and prosperity, but since we’re not culturally or emotionally invested, it’s easier for us to see. The charr who actually live their lives day by day are only human (ha-ha) and as a result, they aren’t always logical. And they have multiple ideas of “victory”

I think the charr have grown “softer”, but I don’t think they’ll ever become “soft”. They are predators by nature—their instincts drive them to fight, kill, and dominate from birth in a way that humans will never understand. But like humans, they also know that following your base instincts doesn’t always work in a modern world. By human standards, they’ll always be a violent military culture—but since they’ve decided to work together with humans and the other races, they have to be open to new ideas. Making an alliance with Flame Legion would require being open to new ideas as well, but that’s a far deeper and more personal affair—which makes it much harder.