Did the Charr made a big mistake?

Did the Charr made a big mistake?

in Charr

Posted by: adormtil.1605

adormtil.1605

When they attacked Ascalon did they overextend their forces by attacking Kryta and Orr before they secured all of Ascalon? I mean they lost the war with those nations and had terrible terrible losses and they did not took the all of Ascalon until this day and that is because those defeats have broken the moral and faith in their leaders and gods resulting in the following civil war defeat of their leaders and more. What do you think if they focused on Ascalon would they have been way stronger now?

Did the Charr made a big mistake?

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Posted by: MaxTNT.3154

MaxTNT.3154

A warlike race under the zealotry leadership of the Flame Legion and their new ‘Gods’ such as the Charr to halt their momentum and fortify? They would ride their momentum to deathor glory…which turned out to be the former.
A Human would see reason in what you suggest and maybe they wouldn’t have overextended…but these are not Humans…

Did the Charr made a big mistake?

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Posted by: Dustfinger.9510

Dustfinger.9510

I don’t think they did make a mistake. Focusing on Ascalon would only have meant a perpetual battle against the ghosts at the time. So there would have been no change there. But attacking Kryta and Orr means they put those human nations in their own war so they couldn’t just build their forces and attack on their own terms.

It also made sense to attack both. Orr because that was the traditional seat of the gods and it was really the gods that drove the humans to conquer Ascalon in the first place. so that is really preemptively sound. And Kryta was reinforcing Ebonhawke.

Did the Charr made a big mistake?

in Charr

Posted by: adormtil.1605

adormtil.1605

^Was not the Ascalon incident were all have been made ghosts was after Kryta and Orr defeated the charr?

Did the Charr made a big mistake?

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Posted by: Dustfinger.9510

Dustfinger.9510

^Was not the Ascalon incident were all have been made ghosts was after Kryta and Orr defeated the charr?

Kryta never defeated the charr. they were still at war up until recently when the elder dragons attacked. Until then, they were sacrificing waves of troops to bolster Ebonhawkes defenses. And the charrr were planning on attacking the captitol of kryta once they conquered ebonhawke.

The events of Orr echo the events of Ascalon but they happened after ascalon was already ravaged by the searing. Then they marched south to Orr. The leaders of each nation had only pyric victories since they destroyed their nations in an effort to thwart the charr.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Orr
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_Cataclysm

Did the Charr made a big mistake?

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Posted by: adormtil.1605

adormtil.1605

^I meant when Kryta pushed them out of their territory having a war not on your own turf is a victory to me.

Did the Charr made a big mistake?

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Posted by: Dustfinger.9510

Dustfinger.9510

^I meant when Kryta pushed them out of their territory having a war not on your own turf is a victory to me.

They had a victory in battle but the book Sea of Sorrows confirms that they didn’t have any major victories. The charr new they needed to be able to focus their attention on kryta. And the charr already had the capitol of Kryta (LA) mapped out with the newer generations of warbands specifically studying krytans. And the Iron Legion was building up it’s navy in an effort to rival krytas supremacy of the seas. So the war on krytas territory was definitely coming.

A common invasion tactic in RL was to send out initial invasion forces in order to see how far you can get. It tells you what kind of resistance you can expect and it tells you what is actuall a threat. (Ghengis Khan did it and it just turned out that there was no force that was prepared for his type of assaults.) So once the initial charr invasions were eventually repelled, it allowed them to have an accurate battle map strategy of where forces needed to be and what needed to be prioritized.

(edited by Dustfinger.9510)

Did the Charr made a big mistake?

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Posted by: adormtil.1605

adormtil.1605

Still they kinda lost I mean 200 years later and they did not even set foot in LA after they were repelled as army and now with the new capital way further and so in land that chance is gone. But that is not the point the point is that they lost to much with this ventures after all armies after armies were wiped out you see the mongols at the time of Ghengis Khan needed one defeat and goodbye empire but it did not happen the charr had so much potential to take the world if they focused all their armies at one enemy at a time but they did not and there still there after 200 years there not taking all of Ascalon.

Did the Charr made a big mistake?

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Posted by: Dustfinger.9510

Dustfinger.9510

Still they kinda lost I mean 200 years later and they did not even set foot in LA after they were repelled as army and now with the new capital way further and so in land that chance is gone. But that is not the point the point is that they lost to much with this ventures after all armies after armies were wiped out you see the mongols at the time of Ghengis Khan needed one defeat and goodbye empire but it did not happen the charr had so much potential to take the world if they focused all their armies at one enemy at a time but they did not and there still there after 200 years there not taking all of Ascalon.

They were focusing on Ebonhawke. Scouting LA was in anticipation of defeating EH who they were focusing on.

They didn’t lose because it is specifically stated that kryta had no major victories. Kryta wasn’t being focused on. Saying the charr lost to kryta is like saying that any one of the human nations lost the guild wars. No one did because it was an ongoing conflict. But we know that the charr held all major victories and they were gearing up to focus on kryta. Losing minor battles doesn’t equate to losing the war. Especially since it is specifically stated that they had no major victories.

edit: the capitol was moved in land due to zaitans attack. that doesn’t really factor into whether the charr made a mistake or not since no one could have anticipated that. And krytas strength has always been it’s navy. If the charr didn’t have to worry about it’s navy kryta would be less of a threat, not more.

(edited by Dustfinger.9510)

Did the Charr made a big mistake?

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Posted by: adormtil.1605

adormtil.1605

^I never said they lost to Kryta I said they did not won because of bad decisions to attack all 3 nations. Better said they lost because they did not completely win if you get my point.
edit:Still 200 hundred years of status quo that is the thing I wanna say and its because they lost to much attacking all the nations at the same time.

(edited by adormtil.1605)

Did the Charr made a big mistake?

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Posted by: Dustfinger.9510

Dustfinger.9510

^I never said they lost to Kryta I said they did not won because of bad decisions to attack all 3 nations. Better said they lost because they did not completely win if you get my point.

I can see that. But consider this: the only reason EH was such a problem is because they were supported by a whole other kingdom with all it’s resources in tact. Imagine if they started focusing on one kingdom and had two whole nations backing EH with two nations resources in tact.

edit: Or if they sent their entire force into Orr or Ascalon and lost the whole army when they sacrificed themselves.

(edited by Dustfinger.9510)

Did the Charr made a big mistake?

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Posted by: adormtil.1605

adormtil.1605

^Good point very good point it was a good strategy on paper but the truth is that is why they were stopped in their expansion on paper they had to win in truth they lost so much.

Did the Charr made a big mistake?

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Posted by: Zaxares.5419

Zaxares.5419

Military strategy is always something of a gamble.

On the one hand, the blitzkrieg strategy is extremely powerful because it relies on overwhelming your opponent with sudden and powerful force before they have time to ready their defenses or dig in. This is how the Charr were able to overwhelm Orr and nearly conquer Kryta before they were repulsed by the Cataclysm and the White Mantle/Mursaat. It’s likely that, if the Charr had succeeded with their initial advance, they’d have been able to divert forces back to Ascalon and crush all resistance once the bulk of the Krytan and Orrian defense was broken.

But that didn’t happen, as we all know. The bulk of the Charr invasion force actually headed to Orr, and they were all killed when Vizier Khilbron called down the Cataclysm. (And we now know that the reason why the Flame Legion was so insistent on conquering Orr was because they were being goaded to by the Titans, who were acting on Abaddon’s instructions. HE was the one who wanted Orr to be destroyed, and he was more than willing to sacrifice the Charr armies as pawns to achieve this.)

And when the White Mantle, with the support of the Mursaat, drove the Charr back, that basically gave the Ascalonians the edge they needed to hang on for years afterwards while the Charr regrouped, until King Adelbern used the Foefire.

Did the Charr made a big mistake?

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Posted by: Wanderer.3248

Wanderer.3248

They couldn’t have predicted the searing or the cataclysm. It’d be like attacking a medieval nation, only to find out that they had secret nuclear weapons.

Did the Charr made a big mistake?

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Posted by: Ben K.6238

Ben K.6238

You mean the Foefire? Charr caused the Searing, after all.

There was something like a 20-year gap between the Searing and the Foefire, during which the charr forces invaded Orr and Kryta, losing both expeditions to the Cataclysm and Mursaat respectively. It took a while to rebuild their armies but with the huge casualties and loss of arable land suffered by Ascalon, the fall of Rin and later Ascalon City was inevitable.
Ebonhawke was only saved with Krytan reinforcement and materiel via the Asuran gate. Of course, it helps that it was spared from the effects of the Foefire.

Did the Charr made a big mistake?

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Posted by: Ishmael.6740

Ishmael.6740

From their point of view at the time it was a logical decision, they had the humans routed and could not have predicted the cataclysm or the mursaat – That was just bad luck ^^

Did the Charr made a big mistake?

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Posted by: Lostwingman.5034

Lostwingman.5034

I don’t think they did make a mistake. Focusing on Ascalon would only have meant a perpetual battle against the ghosts at the time. So there would have been no change there. But attacking Kryta and Orr means they put those human nations in their own war so they couldn’t just build their forces and attack on their own terms.

It also made sense to attack both. Orr because that was the traditional seat of the gods and it was really the gods that drove the humans to conquer Ascalon in the first place. so that is really preemptively sound. And Kryta was reinforcing Ebonhawke.

Didn’t they attack Orr and Kryta before the Foefire though? I’m not mixing things up am I?

Bad@Ele: Alaric Von Manstein
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Sea of Sorrows, a server never before so appropriately named.

Did the Charr made a big mistake?

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Posted by: Ben K.6238

Ben K.6238

Many years before. There were no ghosts in Ascalon to be in a perpetual battle with yet, Kryta was at war with Ascalon, and Ebonhawke didn’t exist.

Did the Charr made a big mistake?

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Posted by: Dustfinger.9510

Dustfinger.9510

I don’t think they did make a mistake. Focusing on Ascalon would only have meant a perpetual battle against the ghosts at the time. So there would have been no change there. But attacking Kryta and Orr means they put those human nations in their own war so they couldn’t just build their forces and attack on their own terms.

It also made sense to attack both. Orr because that was the traditional seat of the gods and it was really the gods that drove the humans to conquer Ascalon in the first place. so that is really preemptively sound. And Kryta was reinforcing Ebonhawke.

Didn’t they attack Orr and Kryta before the Foefire though? I’m not mixing things up am I?

They did attack them before the foefire. Not before the searing though.

Did the Charr made a big mistake?

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Posted by: Zaxares.5419

Zaxares.5419

This is how events played out (leaving out actual dates since I’m too lazy to go trawl through GWwiki right now):

1. Charr attack Ascalon for a long time with no success thanks to infighting after the Khan-Ur was slain and the Great Wall of Ascalon.

2. Flame Legion discovers the Titans, comes to power.

3. Titans give the Flame Legion the Cauldron of Cataclysm. FL uses the Cauldron to summon the Searing. Great Wall of Ascalon is breached.

4. Charr devastate Ascalon (although resistance continues for at least another 50 years), push on to Kryta and Orr.

5. Vizier Khilbron reads the forbidden scrolls, causing the Cataclysm. Orr is destroyed and sunk. The bulk of the Charr armies dies in the Cataclysm.

6. Saul D’Alessio finds the Mursaat, starts the White Mantle. With the help of the Mursaat, Kryta repulses the Charr invasion.

7. The Charr retreat back to Ascalon, where they continue trying to defeat the last Ascalonian resistance.

8. Approx. 20 years after the Searing, Ascalon City finally falls. King Adelbern breaks Magdaer and summons the Foefire.

9. Around this same time, Gwen and the Ebon Hawks found Ebonhawke, the last remnant of human sovereignty in Ascalon.

Did the Charr made a big mistake?

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Posted by: adormtil.1605

adormtil.1605

^If they knew that they will be hit by a “nuclear” attack the probably would not have attacked. But as I said what is on paper is not always good in reality.