Guild Wars 2

Something I just cannot get over regarding the Charr.

Asura have 1 known enemy in their land – Inquest.
Sylvari have 2 – Nightmare Court and Risen.
Norn have 1/2 – Icebrood/Sons of Sylvari (the two are not always in each others company)
Humans have 3 – Centaurs, Seperatists and Risen, though the Risen are small in number and far from DR.
Charr have 4 – Flame Legion to the north, Branded/Kralkybabes to the east, Renegades to the south and Ascalonian ghosts within.

So why have the Charr assisted humanity/Sylvari with destroying their dragon annoyance (Risen) when they are in full knowledge of the fact that now humans have only Centaurs as natural predators. This leaves humanity in the enviable position of holding VAST swathes of farmable land plus facing a reduced threat from Zhaitan. They could easily eliminate one of their other foes – the Seperatists – by uniting with them and turning on… the Charr.

This would leave the Charr COMPLETELY beseiged.

Fighting Zhaitan first is darned poor military strategy from a race that prides itself on being militaristic.

Because it’s a video game and the writing isn’t supposed to make sense.

Maybe ask over in Lore/Story?

GuzziHero.2467:

Something I just cannot get over regarding the Charr.

Asura have 1 known enemy in their land – Inquest.
Sylvari have 2 – Nightmare Court and Risen.
Norn have 1/2 – Icebrood/Sons of Sylvari (the two are not always in each others company)
Humans have 3 – Centaurs, Seperatists and Risen, though the Risen are small in number and far from DR.
Charr have 4 – Flame Legion to the north, Branded/Kralkybabes to the east, Renegades to the south and Ascalonian ghosts within.

So why have the Charr assisted humanity/Sylvari with destroying their dragon annoyance (Risen) when they are in full knowledge of the fact that now humans have only Centaurs as natural predators. This leaves humanity in the enviable position of holding VAST swathes of farmable land plus facing a reduced threat from Zhaitan. They could easily eliminate one of their other foes – the Seperatists – by uniting with them and turning on… the Charr.

This would leave the Charr COMPLETELY beseiged.

Fighting Zhaitan first is darned poor military strategy from a race that prides itself on being militaristic.

Lol @ sons of sylvari.

Anyway, I haven’t played GW1 but here’s what I’ve learned:
Not sure if you’ve seen the human tutorial, but the human race was pretty much on the brink of extinction. Ascalon lost, Orr lost, contact was lost with Elona and Cantha. “Only Kryta still stands”. If it wasn’t for the treaty with the charr, the Krytans would’ve been overwhelmed by centaurs, risen and charr.

Also, both the human and charr races realise the dragons are a great threat to theirselves and thus a common enemy. Well except for the separatists and renegades that is. They still believe the charr or humans respectively are the real threat to them.

Also, asura have destroyers as a major enemy, so not just Inquest.

Ooooops Svanir. Sometimes I mix words round when I am rushing a thought. Aspergers is fun!

It just seems really odd that the Charr have travelled so far from their own lands, stretching their supply lines across many miles, to fight an enemy which isn’t a direct threat to them (right now) rather than insisting on taking on Kralkatorrik first.

Human also has bandits/pirates and internal political affair to worry about, so they are in no way better off with Zhaitan gone. Besides, if human decide to backstab char by uniting with seperatists, I am sure char will just cut a deal with flame legion and renegades.

Also note, none of the race has actually sent their troops to fight risen, orr invasion is done by the Pack.

Dragon are a bigger threat.

If the humans declare war after the Dragons are defeated then 2 of the charrs enemies are taken care of. branded are gone and renegades are in favor of the war with humanity. before the treaty with humanity charr were doing fine against the FL and ghosts. The dragons are a big reason the charr even need an alliance with anybody.

The charr are far more powerful than the human armies – it wouldn’t make a whole lot of difference. Breaking the treaty now would just result in the deaths of hundreds of human settlers outside Ebonhawke, and the ones inside would have to contend with charr armed with Pact siege weaponry.

The problems the charr are faced with are individually not as serious as the centaurs are for Kryta. It’s stretching resources to fight 6 different groups (Separatists and ogres are other irritations not on that list) that allows the Flame Legion to even think about striking the Black Citadel… and this while their soldiers around their own base are being ambushed all over the place by the Ash Legion.

As far as i am aware, every charr is part of their military. They all belong to warbands and the legions. So having that in mind it wouldn´t end well with the humans trying to backstab their treaty with the charr. Especially not now, as the legions have gathered new intel about possible war engineering due to the combined work within the pact.
So it could well be now that the humans wouldn´t be able anymore to keep the charr at bay in ebonhawke. And that again would end with the charr having acces to an asura gate that´d bring them straight into the heart of divinities reach.
I think it´s not needed to explain why the humans wouldn´t want that to happen.

But in general i think the charr were willing to accept the treaty as they know that it puts them even more into a power position.

The gate to Divinity’s Reach would be shut down after retreating from Ebonhawke. They’d have to be caught well and truly off-guard for it to be breached.

To be honest, the charr LIKE to have plenty of enemies, if they didn’t have an external threat to fight they’d just be fighting each other for the title of Khan-Ur. You can tell Blood, Iron and Ash legion do not really like each other much, they just dislike Flame legion, Ghosts, branded and Ogres more than they dislike each other, at least at the moment!

GuzziHero.2467:

Ooooops Svanir. Sometimes I mix words round when I am rushing a thought. Aspergers is fun!

It just seems really odd that the Charr have travelled so far from their own lands, stretching their supply lines across many miles, to fight an enemy which isn’t a direct threat to them (right now) rather than insisting on taking on Kralkatorrik first.

Except we kinda did. Per Destiny’s Edge, Kralkatorrik was the first dragon directly fought.

The battle was lost, and we suffered the loss of both Glint and one of the most brilliant asuran minds of our time.

Per the treaty with the humans and many charr being entrenched in the global interracial orders even before the treaty, the charr honor their commitments.

That brought them to Orr with the rest of the races against Zhaitan. The dragons are a global problem and that included Zhaitan.

Left unchecked, the undead would have taken the tyrian mainlands and eventually found their way to Ascalon… making it a charr problem.

If you followed with the charr personal story, one of your own warband became a risen right there in Ascalon.

The charr were besieged before the treaty.

The treaty with the humans eliminates one more threat, and brings with it a full and open commerce with one of the major races in Tyria.

It makes the charr that much richer and that much stronger.

Here’s the thing: the charr fighting humans at Ebonhawke? They weren’t winning. They had stalemated that conflict being unable to break the walls and the humans remaining there couldn’t make lasting progress. To fight the humans of Kryta, the charr would have to get over the Shiverpeaks . . . now norn territory.

The charr fought the norn once before Eye of the North – they decided they were better off not doing that.

Of course, if you were to secure Lion’s Arch for the charr legions they could funnel in people through the asura gates. Why do you think Evon’s warband was there in the first place? Except that didn’t . . . really work out, did it?

The Branded were sort of dropped on the charr while they were busy with their civil war against the Flame Legion and the final stronghold of Ascalon. So you can’t be blamed for them starting that fight, it just happened and made a mess of things.

And the Flame Legion . . . blame Pyre Fierceshot and his warband for that mess. The shaman caste of the Flame Legion had been in charge for too long and thought themselves invulnerable and answerable to no other force than their “gods”. Pyre made them eat that hubris, and over the years between then and now others gave them helping after helping until they got driven back. Of course, you can’t just exterminate them, there’s some hopes they’ll just give up those delusions and turn traitor back to the fold.

And it’s been said here – the charr work best when they are focused on enemies. If they didn’t have a lovely target-rich environment to focus on they’d be turning on each other. They cannot sustain themselves.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

And it’s been said here – the charr work best when they are focused on enemies. If they didn’t have a lovely target-rich environment to focus on they’d be turning on each other. They cannot sustain themselves.

Bah. The charr of today aren’t the same charr of yesteryear. They’re not stupid. They’ve (hopefully) learned that exhaustive in-fighting can only weaken them in the long run.

In the event that they haven’t, Smodur the Unflinching expresses his own intelligence by possessing the Claw of the Khan-Ur yet choosing not to use it to officially claim the Khan-Ur title.

(… perhaps on the advice of Malice Swordshadow.)

Charr primary Legion infighting is almost as old as their grudge against humanity. Dating back to the last khan-ur. They may not be self sustainable against the ED’s but they are in no danger of destroying themselves if they don’t have an outside enemy. Not since they almost did destroy themselves before they developed their strict hierarchical society. That strict hierarchy coupled with a good sense to keep the infighting on a lower priority is what makes their society workable.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

And it’s been said here – the charr work best when they are focused on enemies. If they didn’t have a lovely target-rich environment to focus on they’d be turning on each other. They cannot sustain themselves.

The Charr born and raised in Lion’s Arch would have a word with you.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

And it’s been said here – the charr work best when they are focused on enemies. If they didn’t have a lovely target-rich environment to focus on they’d be turning on each other. They cannot sustain themselves.

The Charr born and raised in Lion’s Arch would have a word with you.

Excellent, I need some new rugs.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

And it’s been said here – the charr work best when they are focused on enemies. If they didn’t have a lovely target-rich environment to focus on they’d be turning on each other. They cannot sustain themselves.

The Charr born and raised in Lion’s Arch would have a word with you.

Excellent, I need some new rugs.

Will Tobias have a pair of new rugs, or will Tobias himself become a swanky new pair of charr boots? Tune in next time, folks!

CETheLucid.3964:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

And it’s been said here – the charr work best when they are focused on enemies. If they didn’t have a lovely target-rich environment to focus on they’d be turning on each other. They cannot sustain themselves.

The Charr born and raised in Lion’s Arch would have a word with you.

Excellent, I need some new rugs.

Will Tobias have a pair of new rugs, or will Tobias himself become a swanky new pair of charr boots? Tune in next time, folks!

Nah, the boots aren’t all that nice, too warm in the Maguuma summer and not waterproofed well enough for the Shiverpeaks.

Maybe a hat. Hmmm. Get one, run around with a greatsword in WvW pretending to be a charr warrior. Brilliant idea, now to find the perfectly sized donor.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Here’s the thing: the charr fighting humans at Ebonhawke? They weren’t winning. They had stalemated that conflict being unable to break the walls and the humans remaining there couldn’t make lasting progress. To fight the humans of Kryta, the charr would have to get over the Shiverpeaks . . . now norn territory.

The charr fought the norn once before Eye of the North – they decided they were better off not doing that.

True, but the charr and the norn sort of formed an unofficial mutual peace treaty. In Gw1, that was what allowed them to cross over to Kryta, where their leader was killed by Saul D’ Alessio, but that’s another story.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Of course, if you were to secure Lion’s Arch for the charr legions they could funnel in people through the asura gates. Why do you think Evon’s warband was there in the first place? Except that didn’t . . . really work out, did it?

Reading through the short story about Evon’s beginning of the BLTP, it only mentions the people of Lion’s Arch being forced to pay for protection, and though higher-ups planning that sort of thing wouldn’t be surprising, it seems a bit far-fetched.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

And the Flame Legion . . . blame Pyre Fierceshot and his warband for that mess. The shaman caste of the Flame Legion had been in charge for too long and thought themselves invulnerable and answerable to no other force than their “gods”. Pyre made them eat that hubris, and over the years between then and now others gave them helping after helping until they got driven back. Of course, you can’t just exterminate them, there’s some hopes they’ll just give up those delusions and turn traitor back to the fold.

“Blame Pyre Fierceshot” isn’t anywhere near where I would put the mark. Blame their shaman caste system more like. Pyre and his grandsire, Kalla Scorchrazor (where the real rebellions at) were exposing that their gods were not really gods, that their sexism was baseless (except for early resistance, which doesn’t count), and that it was just to get them rich and powerful. So the Flame Legion being enemies brought it down upon themselves, more like. Also, given their fanaticism, it is unlikely many will fold and give up their ideas.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

And it’s been said here – the charr work best when they are focused on enemies. If they didn’t have a lovely target-rich environment to focus on they’d be turning on each other. They cannot sustain themselves.

The Charr born and raised in Lion’s Arch would have a word with you.

I don’t know about cannot sustain, but it is possible that they would go back to squabbling, if given the chance. Those in Lion’s Arch, unless they were just on a mission or something, would have little involvement unless they went back and joined one of the High Legions.

GuzziHero.2467:

So why have the Charr assisted humanity/Sylvari with destroying their dragon annoyance (Risen) when they are in full knowledge of the fact that now humans have only Centaurs as natural predators. This leaves humanity in the enviable position of holding VAST swathes of farmable land plus facing a reduced threat from Zhaitan. They could easily eliminate one of their other foes – the Seperatists – by uniting with them and turning on… the Charr.

This would leave the Charr COMPLETELY beseiged.

Fighting Zhaitan first is darned poor military strategy from a race that prides itself on being militaristic.

As someone already said, Kryta is all of humanity on the continent Tyria (aside from Ebonhawke, but thats beyond the point). Humans declaring war on the charr would both get rid of the Renegades as an enemy of the charr and would endanger the last of humanity, except for Elona where they live or die by the will of an undead liche and Cantha, which refuses to open its doors, as well as potentially suffering from the affliction.

Name.9625:

As far as i am aware, every charr is part of their military. They all belong to warbands and the legions. So having that in mind it wouldn´t end well with the humans trying to backstab their treaty with the charr. Especially not now, as the legions have gathered new intel about possible war engineering due to the combined work within the pact.
So it could well be now that the humans wouldn´t be able anymore to keep the charr at bay in ebonhawke. And that again would end with the charr having acces to an asura gate that´d bring them straight into the heart of divinities reach.
I think it´s not needed to explain why the humans wouldn´t want that to happen.

But in general i think the charr were willing to accept the treaty as they know that it puts them even more into a power position.

1) Between the farmers, gladiums, and elderly, that’s probably no small number, but I digress.
2) That plan hinges on the humans not either destroying or disabling the gate from the other side.
3) Yup, it allows the charr to divert more charrpower to the Flame Legion and ogres and ghosts etc instead of to humans

Sorry for the double post, couldn’t fit it all on one.

DeShadowWolf.6854:

GuzziHero.2467:

So why have the Charr assisted humanity/Sylvari with destroying their dragon annoyance (Risen) when they are in full knowledge of the fact that now humans have only Centaurs as natural predators. This leaves humanity in the enviable position of holding VAST swathes of farmable land plus facing a reduced threat from Zhaitan. They could easily eliminate one of their other foes – the Seperatists – by uniting with them and turning on… the Charr.

This would leave the Charr COMPLETELY beseiged.

Fighting Zhaitan first is darned poor military strategy from a race that prides itself on being militaristic.

As someone already said, Kryta is all of humanity on the continent Tyria (aside from Ebonhawke, but thats beyond the point). Humans declaring war on the charr would both get rid of the Renegades as an enemy of the charr and would endanger the last of humanity, except for Elona where they live or die by the will of an undead liche and Cantha, which refuses to open its doors, as well as potentially suffering from the affliction.

Name.9625:

As far as i am aware, every charr is part of their military. They all belong to warbands and the legions. So having that in mind it wouldn´t end well with the humans trying to backstab their treaty with the charr. Especially not now, as the legions have gathered new intel about possible war engineering due to the combined work within the pact.
So it could well be now that the humans wouldn´t be able anymore to keep the charr at bay in ebonhawke. And that again would end with the charr having acces to an asura gate that´d bring them straight into the heart of divinities reach.
I think it´s not needed to explain why the humans wouldn´t want that to happen.

But in general i think the charr were willing to accept the treaty as they know that it puts them even more into a power position.

1) Between the farmers, gladiums, and elderly, that’s probably no small number, but I digress.
2) That plan hinges on the humans not either destroying or disabling the gate from the other side.
3) Yup, it allows the charr to divert more charrpower to the Flame Legion and ogres and ghosts etc instead of to humans

Sorry for the double post, couldn’t fit it all on one.

Are you sure that the asura would have told the humans how to disable that gate?
And if not, who says that they would be able to shut it down quickly enough.
In the books we learn that there are secret ways into the city of ebonhawke. And if the Ash legion would use them in stealth mode, they could get the gate under their control, even before the Iron and Blood Legions storm the rest of the city.

DeShadowWolf.6854:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Here’s the thing: the charr fighting humans at Ebonhawke? They weren’t winning. They had stalemated that conflict being unable to break the walls and the humans remaining there couldn’t make lasting progress. To fight the humans of Kryta, the charr would have to get over the Shiverpeaks . . . now norn territory.

The charr fought the norn once before Eye of the North – they decided they were better off not doing that.

True, but the charr and the norn sort of formed an unofficial mutual peace treaty. In Gw1, that was what allowed them to cross over to Kryta, where their leader was killed by Saul D’ Alessio, but that’s another story.

No, from what I understand the charr went through Ascalon, not “to Ascalon and back north to go around the Deldrimor territories”. And from what the feeling I got on Longeye’s Ledge was “don’t mess with the norn named Longeye, or he will screw your crap up”. They had no trouble messing with Bjora Marches (Jora’s ancestral lands) and trying to fight her there when they figured they could get away with it.

Also, as is so often said, norn act as individuals more than an army at most times. They do things because they want to do it, not because someone ordered them to.

The charr, thus, were not “having a peace treaty” so much as going “we just will not bother them unless we can actually win”.

Name.9625:

Are you sure that the asura would have told the humans how to disable that gate?
And if not, who says that they would be able to shut it down quickly enough.
In the books we learn that there are secret ways into the city of ebonhawke. And if the Ash legion would use them in stealth mode, they could get the gate under their control, even before the Iron and Blood Legions storm the rest of the city.

Want to disable the gate? Interrupt the power and then drop the cliff overhead onto it. while it’s down, tear it down at the other end and bury it.

I have no doubt if the humans of Ebonhawke realized they were losing and Divinity’s Reach was next, they’d do just such a thing before trying one last stand. And if the charr did start something like that, I also expect the asura would cut their gate travel privileges for abusing their technicians. And triple waypoint costs.

Then all the players playing charr would turn on the NPCs and it would be glorious.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

No, from what I understand the charr went through Ascalon, not “to Ascalon and back north to go around the Deldrimor territories”. And from what the feeling I got on Longeye’s Ledge was “don’t mess with the norn named Longeye, or he will screw your crap up”. They had no trouble messing with Bjora Marches (Jora’s ancestral lands) and trying to fight her there when they figured they could get away with it.

Also, as is so often said, norn act as individuals more than an army at most times. They do things because they want to do it, not because someone ordered them to.

The charr, thus, were not “having a peace treaty” so much as going “we just will not bother them unless we can actually win”.

No one ordered the norn into a peace treaty but the charr and norn had an unofficial peace treaty built on mutual respect.

“In fact, during the Searing, the Norn allowed the Charr armies passage through the northern pass from Ascalon into Kryta, setting the stage for the Charr invasion of the central human lands.”

“No peace accord was ever signed; a treaty would have been meaningless to the individualistic Norn and no Charr would even spit upon such a paper. However, the two races allowed one another passage and trade, while keeping their borders secure. Occasionally, a warband (or a Norn hunter) might cross the line into the other’s land, only to be cut down without prejudice…but these skirmishes do not disrupt the accord reached by mutual consent between these nations.”

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Movement_of_the_World#Norn

Name.9625:

~snip~

Are you sure that the asura would have told the humans how to disable that gate?
And if not, who says that they would be able to shut it down quickly enough.
In the books we learn that there are secret ways into the city of ebonhawke. And if the Ash legion would use them in stealth mode, they could get the gate under their control, even before the Iron and Blood Legions storm the rest of the city.[/quote]

To add to what Tobias already said, the only secret way into the city we were shown was through the sewers. So, 1) I’m not sure if stealth works the same way in lore as it does in-game, so that may not work, 2) the charr have many other problems, such as the ghosts, the Branded, ogres, and the Flame Legion, so they wouldn’t want to bother trying to divert the forces to make an assault on a now-ally, something they can really use, and 3) I don’t think that even stealthed Ash Legion charr would be able to get in, based on the way it’s described. They would need to find a way to climb up to the sewer grate, open from the far side, and only then would they get in to suffer through the horrible stench and feel of the waste. Unless they quickly find a sewer opening, which requires inside knowledge or lots of luck, and would still need to unlock it, then get through the entire city, which again would require maps, an insider, or extreme luck, without getting killed, and only then would they be able to do what they were planning to do.

tl;dr Stealth may not work the same way in lore, they wouldn’t divert the forces to betray an ally, and it would be far too dangerous with too high a risk of failure.

Oh, and after Dougal and his friends’ breaking out, they probably have increased sewer guards.

Dustfinger.9510:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

~snip~

No one ordered the norn into a peace treaty but the charr and norn had an unofficial peace treaty built on mutual respect.

“In fact, during the Searing, the Norn allowed the Charr armies passage through the northern pass from Ascalon into Kryta, setting the stage for the Charr invasion of the central human lands.”

“No peace accord was ever signed; a treaty would have been meaningless to the individualistic Norn and no Charr would even spit upon such a paper. However, the two races allowed one another passage and trade, while keeping their borders secure. Occasionally, a warband (or a Norn hunter) might cross the line into the other’s land, only to be cut down without prejudice…but these skirmishes do not disrupt the accord reached by mutual consent between these nations.”

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Movement_of_the_World#Norn

Thank you, I was looking for where I had found it. To add,
“In fact, during the Searing, the Norn allowed the Charr armies passage through the northern pass from Ascalon into Kryta, setting the stage for the Charr invasion of the central human lands. Although this was not a sign of any alliance, it set the stage for the two races to live within a watchful peace.” (same source)

Because Charr are what we are. Enemies on all fronts? Stretching across the entirety of the globe to defeat a seemingly unbeatable enemy?
VICTORY OR DEATH!

As the late, great Chest Puller once said, “They are in front of us, behind us, and we are flanked on both sides by an enemy that outnumbers us 29:1. They can’t get away from us now!”

Nay of the Ether.8913:

Because Charr are what we are. Enemies on all fronts? Stretching across the entirety of the globe to defeat a seemingly unbeatable enemy?
VICTORY OR DEATH!