Guild Wars 2

Why can’t they defeat stone walls?

Seriosuly, they had to indirectly get the help of a washed up HUMAN god to get the searing caldron to attack Ascalon the first time, and even then the nuked humans held them at a stalemate until pretty much all the humans left to go to nicer places.

Then Ebonhakwe? How did the charr not turn Ebonhawke into a smoldering crater with all those tanks and bombs they have? Instead ebonhawke was able to hold it’s own no problem with stone walls and midevial siege tech. That is like saying some middle ages castle could hold off a modern military with bombers and cruise missles.

Struggling to think of a time when charr were able to defeat a real fortification, Arah? But did they actually breech the wall there, or was it more like “oh snap, charr at the gates, and the army we left outside is dead, lets hit the vhizer panic button!” And regardless., arah does not look particularly well built. I mean sure it sunk under the sea and was raised up again, but it isn’t that much older to the far better conditioned ascalonian ruins which were nuked, exposed to the elements, and torn apart as best the charr could.

In conclusion, we can only conclude that charr owe any strength to their tue gods: Anet’s writing team ;-)

keep in mind that the Charrs tech in GW1 was a LOT lower than it is now. They didn’t have “tanks and bombs”, they were lucky to have well made swords.

Almost all the Charr’s tech has been developed recently, since the overthrowing of the Shaman Caste.

Abbadon may have been a human god, but he was forsaken, cruelly and unjustifiably punished by that pantheon just as Prometheus suffered at the hands of the Greek pantheon. For what crime? For the crime of giving humans the biggest and most important gift they have ever received.

And as if being imprisoned in the Realm of Torment (Tartarus for Prometheus) was not enough, the victorious human gods worked tirelessly to erase Abbadon from history.

However, unlike Prometheus, Abbadon was able to break free of his prison, wage war against his captors, and those that would gladly see him tortured and destroyed so that they could please their megalomaniac pantheon of gods. The Charr were graced to serve as a part of Abbadon’s righteous army. Where the Charr were fighting back against the Ascalonians for what was taken from them so long ago, Abbadon was also fighting against what was taken from him so long ago.

All the High Legions have strayed from their path. Iron is too concerned with peace, and using propaganda to confuse the past (Flame Legion called “traitors”, when they are responsible for turning the Charr into a force to be reckoned with and the retaking of Ascalon). The Flame Legion is too busy with their search for false gods. Ash and Blood simply lack the initiative.

You humans need the power of six gods to even stand a chance against the Charr. The Charr do not even require their true god to even be alive.

The only good god is a dead god!
All praise Abbadon!

…

Pic related, do your gods even have the combined power to grace you with a week long duration of Protection AND Swiftness?

inb4 High Legion boot licking heretics and humans whine.

Everything is decided by Arenanet’s writing team. It’s not as if they’re busy modifying a pre-existing universe that someone else came up with.

The Charr, until shortly before the events of Guild Wars: Prophecies, were a shattered remnant of what they used to be, because human settlement had driven them into pockets in the wildlands north and east of Ascalon. Until they could consolidate beyond human reach they didn’t have the opportunity to progress technologically, and they figured the real gap between them and humans was gods and magic, so that’s what they tried first.

It looks like they didn’t really start taking technology seriously until they had to fight Ascalonians without the wall, where despite their numerical advantage they proved hopelessly outmatched by the better trained and equipped Ascalonian units, particularly the Ebon Vanguard.

Notably, the walls of Ebonhawke grew to be more than tenfold thicker than the Great Northern Wall to deal with siege fire as the charr started to figure out how asymmetric warfare works. With enough land secured to establish an industrial base, and a determined foe to hone their weapons against, it’s not too surprising they finally managed to get somewhere technologically.

Surbrus.6942:

All the High Legions have strayed from their path. Iron is too concerned with peace, and using propaganda to confuse the past (Flame Legion called “traitors”, when they are responsible for turning the Charr into a force to be reckoned with and the retaking of Ascalon). The Flame Legion is too busy with their search for false gods. Ash and Blood simply lack the initiative.

Ash are busy stopping Flame trying to kill everyone, and making sure assassins and spies die before they can get anywhere. I agree, Blood are idiots who lack initiative. I find it amusing that you called the one legion with the most thieves, lacking initiative. I think that’s the one thing they don’t lack.

Shadowdawn.7946:

Ash are busy stopping Flame trying to kill everyone, and making sure assassins and spies die before they can get anywhere. I agree, Blood are idiots who lack initiative. I find it amusing that you called the one legion with the most thieves, lacking initiative. I think that’s the one thing they don’t lack.

You mean that Ash is busy working to support Smodur the Flinching, one who has surrendered Charr sovereignty to foreign powers. Under his leadership Charr soldiers are drafted into foreign military organizations, those organizations then decide the fate of the Charr, by choosing to take part in Charr civil conflicts between the Legions. It is no wonder why the Vigil and Pact support Smodur over Flame, Flame would fight to keep these foreigners off our land as they have in the past… or has Iron’s propaganda convinced you that Flame are nothing but traitors, and that they were not instrumental in freeing the Charr from Human domination (which began this discussion).

At least before the Flame Legion lead us to victory and the reconquest of Ascalon, the Charr had their fighting spirit to succeed against foreign invaders and work for what is best for the Charr… now that is nothing but a lie used to twist the Charr to the will of Smodur, his lackeys, and those he answers to… and no, Smodur does not answer to a Charr or a god, but he answers to a human monarch, and the internationalist Vigil and Pact forces… all of whom would rob the Charr of every last bit of sovereignty we have.

That is not to say that the Flame Legion is perfect, they too are plagued by bad leadership that also are slaves to personal ambition and power. However the Flame Legion is the best hope to shake things up so that the Charr can again attain sovereignty over themselves.

Shadowdawn.7946:

Surbrus.6942:

All the High Legions have strayed from their path. Iron is too concerned with peace, and using propaganda to confuse the past (Flame Legion called “traitors”, when they are responsible for turning the Charr into a force to be reckoned with and the retaking of Ascalon). The Flame Legion is too busy with their search for false gods. Ash and Blood simply lack the initiative.

Ash are busy stopping Flame trying to kill everyone, and making sure assassins and spies die before they can get anywhere. I agree, Blood are idiots who lack initiative. I find it amusing that you called the one legion with the most thieves, lacking initiative. I think that’s the one thing they don’t lack.

I think it’s too soon to dismiss Blood. Remember, they have a huge homeland region all to themselves north of Ascalon, and we haven’t heard any mention of their imperator or his actions. While Blood may have a lesser impact in Iron Legion’s homeland of Ascalon, I bet they’re cooking up something big in their own territory.
Historically, Blood hasn’t been known to sit quietly—Balthea Havocbringer, Pyre Fierceshot, and Kalla Scorchrazor were all Bloodies—and they led the rebellions against/overthrow of Flame.

For Blood Legion! :P

For Blood Legion and Great Justice!

I hate Flame Legion because they are all sexist losers. I have worse names for them, but I can’t use them or the sensor will make it kitten. I know they were helpful, but I hate sexism, and as such, hate them all. If you’re Flame and born a girl, you’re royally stuffed. The use females as slaves. Unacceptable. That’s why I hate them. Not because I listen to Iron propaganda. I’m not stupid.

My personal impression of things is that the really high-tech stuff the charr are using now wasn’t available until the treaty was already being negotiated. Historically, tanks were notoriously unreliable for the first decade or so after their introduction (and quite prone to breakdown even in WW2) – any tanks that were deployed on the Ebonhawke front were probably slow and primitive enough that they could be held off using Ebonhawke’s artillery, magic, and raids from soldiers well-trained in guerilla and siege warfare.

We also don’t really see a lot of tanks actually in use in charr territory – I haven’t gone through the Blazeridge Steppes or Iron Marches yet, but certainly in Diessa, Ashford and the Plains of Ruin, it doesn’t feel as if tanks have been properly integrated even into the Iron Legion war machine yet. They know they’re onto something good, but at the start of the game (let alone before the treaty was signed) they were still dealing more with prototypes being field-tested than mass-produced weapons of war.

The stuff we see used by the Pact in Orr has been more perfected, but the impression I’m getting is that that came from mixing in contributions from other races in the Pact (primarily but not exclusively the asura), so it’s not representative of what the charr had available to use against Ebonhawke pre-truce.

(Re: Abaddon, I understand Surbrus is probably just roleplaying, but it’s probably worth mentioning that Abaddon gave magic to everyone, not just humans.)

The ghosts also have been taking up alot of charr resources. Even the new ghostbore weoponry, that would end the standoff and allow for the charr to free up an incredible amount of forces, needed to be decided between either a canon or a few mobile turrets. All becasue “Resources demand it.”

While running about the Black Cidital talking to the various NPC’s I came across a rather interesting one on the bottom floor of the command core that shed a little more light on how new tanks are as he talks about how he only just figured out how to put turrets on the Charr tanks or at least he’s very sure he has as he only has it all worked out on paper with no working prototype as yet.

Which is consistent with the massive ones you see around some charr fortifications that mechanics-wise are just part of the scenery – they have a big gun at the front, but it doesn’t traverse horizontally. The historical equivalent might be something like the St-Chamond.

The ones that we see actually moving and fighting are a big more practical and also quite a bit lighter – more like the Renault FT. To me, though, the examples seen in Orr come off as lighter and more fragile than pretty much anything deployed historically – probably as a result of different design priorities, the tanks appearing to be being used more as cavalry while it’s golems that serve as heavies among the Pact. This means that given another twenty years or so design principles will probably converge, but at the moment the Pact tanks appear designed more for speed in contrast to WW1 tanks that were designed to break trenchlines.

Weindrasi.3805:

Shadowdawn.7946:

Surbrus.6942:

All the High Legions have strayed from their path. Iron is too concerned with peace, and using propaganda to confuse the past (Flame Legion called “traitors”, when they are responsible for turning the Charr into a force to be reckoned with and the retaking of Ascalon). The Flame Legion is too busy with their search for false gods. Ash and Blood simply lack the initiative.

Ash are busy stopping Flame trying to kill everyone, and making sure assassins and spies die before they can get anywhere. I agree, Blood are idiots who lack initiative. I find it amusing that you called the one legion with the most thieves, lacking initiative. I think that’s the one thing they don’t lack.

I think it’s too soon to dismiss Blood. Remember, they have a huge homeland region all to themselves north of Ascalon, and we haven’t heard any mention of their imperator or his actions. While Blood may have a lesser impact in Iron Legion’s homeland of Ascalon, I bet they’re cooking up something big in their own territory.
Historically, Blood hasn’t been known to sit quietly—Balthea Havocbringer, Pyre Fierceshot, and Kalla Scorchrazor were all Bloodies—and they led the rebellions against/overthrow of Flame.

For Blood Legion! :P

Agreed, people arent giving Blood enough credit. We fought against the Flame and we beat them, but everyone just talks about those techies and the spies.

Surbrus.6942:

Abbadon may have been a human god, but he was forsaken, cruelly and unjustifiably punished by that pantheon just as Prometheus suffered at the hands of the Greek pantheon. For what crime? For the crime of giving humans the biggest and most important gift they have ever received.

And as if being imprisoned in the Realm of Torment (Tartarus for Prometheus) was not enough, the victorious human gods worked tirelessly to erase Abbadon from history.

However, unlike Prometheus, Abbadon was able to break free of his prison, wage war against his captors, and those that would gladly see him tortured and destroyed so that they could please their megalomaniac pantheon of gods. The Charr were graced to serve as a part of Abbadon’s righteous army. Where the Charr were fighting back against the Ascalonians for what was taken from them so long ago, Abbadon was also fighting against what was taken from him so long ago.

All the High Legions have strayed from their path. Iron is too concerned with peace, and using propaganda to confuse the past (Flame Legion called “traitors”, when they are responsible for turning the Charr into a force to be reckoned with and the retaking of Ascalon). The Flame Legion is too busy with their search for false gods. Ash and Blood simply lack the initiative.

You humans need the power of six gods to even stand a chance against the Charr. The Charr do not even require their true god to even be alive.

The only good god is a dead god!
All praise Abbadon!

…

Pic related, do your gods even have the combined power to grace you with a week long duration of Protection AND Swiftness?

inb4 High Legion boot licking heretics and humans whine.

where can we find said statue/shrine =)

Malpercio.2436:

Surbrus.6942:

Abbadon may have been a human god, but he was forsaken, cruelly and unjustifiably punished by that pantheon just as Prometheus suffered at the hands of the Greek pantheon. For what crime? For the crime of giving humans the biggest and most important gift they have ever received.

And as if being imprisoned in the Realm of Torment (Tartarus for Prometheus) was not enough, the victorious human gods worked tirelessly to erase Abbadon from history.

However, unlike Prometheus, Abbadon was able to break free of his prison, wage war against his captors, and those that would gladly see him tortured and destroyed so that they could please their megalomaniac pantheon of gods. The Charr were graced to serve as a part of Abbadon’s righteous army. Where the Charr were fighting back against the Ascalonians for what was taken from them so long ago, Abbadon was also fighting against what was taken from him so long ago.

All the High Legions have strayed from their path. Iron is too concerned with peace, and using propaganda to confuse the past (Flame Legion called “traitors”, when they are responsible for turning the Charr into a force to be reckoned with and the retaking of Ascalon). The Flame Legion is too busy with their search for false gods. Ash and Blood simply lack the initiative.

You humans need the power of six gods to even stand a chance against the Charr. The Charr do not even require their true god to even be alive.

The only good god is a dead god!
All praise Abbadon!

…

Pic related, do your gods even have the combined power to grace you with a week long duration of Protection AND Swiftness?

inb4 High Legion boot licking heretics and humans whine.

where can we find said statue/shrine =)

Looks like the statue from the temple under the ocean where Fort Trinity is. Uhh…Temple of the Forgotten God, I think.

Before the Searing the Charr were little more than tribals kept under the tyrannical boot of the shaman caste. They did not really have any siege weaponry so they literally had to throw countless Charr at the wall until it fell, which did not work. After the Searing that did work because Ascalon was not able to repair the gates and such in time :P.

The Ebonhawke was made up of people raised in a state of war and were very elite, and again the Charr were under the boot of the Shaman caste.

The Charr advanced greatly in both technology and training after freeing themselves from their masters.

That said casualty rates amongst Charr are STILL ridiculous. The first event you do when you first make your Charr character, stuff like that occurs pretty regularly and a lot of Charr died in that one. Add in the Civil War they are fighting with the Flame Legion and the war with the Separatists and many other smaller wars they are fighting. Many Charr are dying, its really like most races where you have a few elites and the rest are mainly cannon fodder.

EpicFace.8096:

Agreed, people arent giving Blood enough credit. We fought against the Flame and we beat them, but everyone just talks about those techies and the spies.

Rytlock is Blood, too. That deserves some respect. He’s more pragmatic than I thought someone from Blood would be.

Ebonhawke is an open and shut case, really.

Under Flame Legion Leadership

The shamans were idiots, plain and simple. Out of paranoia, they stopped all advancement of the legions and hid away any advancements that they could have had out of fear that the charr may rebel and use them against them. Okay, fair enough, they did have a small rebellion on their hands.

But maybe if they hadn’t ran around making martyrs wherever they could, and designating half of their race to utilitarian roles, then they wouldn’t have had a rebellion to deal with.

Shamans: Not very bright.

Immediately After the Flame Legion

The charr needed time to organise, so they temporarily broke off the attacks against Ebonhawk. They sent only small numbers of warbands to ensure that the peoples of Ebonhawk couldn’t press out and occupy charr land. Humans killing them off like cattle (‘dumb beasts’) and stealing their lands was already a sore spot for them.

Following Those Events…

The charr were looking at threats from Kralkatorrik, invulnerable ghosts that can’t be truly defeated (only contained), ogres, harpies, and many other potential enemies. There was already talk about how a peace agreement with the humans would be beneficial. Besides, the hate was the hate of ancestors, and the charr are pragmatic enough to put such behind them.

Until a peace treaty could be arranged, the same small smattering of warbands was kept around Ebonhawk to protect against human expansion. Sure, they could have rolled in the tanks and blasted Ebonhawk off the face of the map; But that’s not going to look very good on a treaty, is it?

“Oh, hi Queenie. We’d like to arrange a treaty with you. But uh, we killed a load of humans holed up in some fortified castle estate thing because they were being jerks. You don’t care about that, right? You do? Uh. Oops?”

The charr are smarter than that. The obvious truth here is, indeed, obvious. After they organised themselves, they could have chosen to obliterate Ebonhawk but they didn’t. Ebonhawk was spared as a gesture of peace.

As for charr casualty rates. They face the strongest, hardiest, and most virulent opponents of any of the races. Including one that will never go away until the last of them is in a containment device. No other race comes even close to the threats the charr face. If you swapped the positions of the charr and the humans, the charr would have their region running like clockwork within the week, and humanity would be extinct.

AuldWolf.7598:

After they organised themselves, they could have chosen to obliterate Ebonhawk but they didn’t. Ebonhawk was spared as a gesture of peace.

That’s not really supported by the events of Edge of Destiny and Ghosts of Ascalon, both of which show a joint Iron Legion-Blood Legion army laying siege on the city of Ebonhawke, and especially Ghosts of Ascalon saying that to have been the case for at least a generation. Charr characters doing the Renown Heart inside Ebonhawke can point out that, to Charr, the Ebon Guard won. A large part of that isn’t the development of stone walls — even in Ghosts, it’s pretty clear that artillery could damage them — but the counterdevelopment of human artillery on top of those walls. Setting up +3% range trebuchet at the bottom of a hill won’t help much against folk on top of the hill with base range ones.

Against an enemy with a massive height and cover advantage, you don’t merely need to have better guns; you need to have and hold a comparable advantage, or bypass those advantages entirely. That’s not really a psychologically attractive option to the Charr, especially given the Iron Legion’s distrust of magic. Bribing the Asura, getting a human bandit to infiltrate the Ebon Guard, or coming up with whole new concepts of artillery isn’t a battle — it’s admitting defeat.

And remember, Ebonhawke isn’t a minor target. It’s its own city-state, and one that survive the wars between the human nations, as well as battles with a sizable quantity of ogre tribes. Meanwhile, the legions attacking it had to deal with not only said ogre tribes, but also the ghost problem, the Flame Legion, for a few years the Brand, and a half-dozen other lesser issues, while projecting a fairly long supply line. Eventually, one side or the other would have developed bombs powerful enough to end the battle, but thankfully it didn’t come to that.

Rytlock is Blood, too. That deserves some respect. He’s more pragmatic than I thought someone from Blood would be.

Rytlock’s a little weird, by Charr standards. Not just in his willingness to work outside of his Legion, but also that he doesn’t seem to work with his warband much. You see some other pragmatic Blood Legion Charr, enough to suggest that the stereotype of bloodthirsty brainless brawlers is only two out of three. Mrs. Soulkeeper, for example, might not count as Blood currently, but she’s either the world’s strongest gladium or a hell of a Blood Legion planner.

Plus, I don’t think it’s just that the Ebon Vanguard have counter-artillery. They have a tradition of guerilla warfare, and guerilla warfare is one area where humanity’s greater use of magic comes as an advantage – it’s easier to sneak an Elementalist into position than a cannon, after all.

From my experiences in Orr, the light charr tanks are not actually that tough. Without protection, a mob of Risen can tear one apart in pretty short order. The bigger ones we never see in action – they’re generally just part of the scenery – but given that the charr tech level seems to be roughly WW1ish, I’d imagine that they have the same problems that large WW1 tanks did – slow, prone to breakdown, and while heavily armoured, quite vulnerable to any weapons that can pose a credible threat to them.

Given another generation, Ebonhawke would have had to develop some very impressive countermeasures or it it would have been flattened. However, the reason it hasn’t yet is that the charr didn’t go instantly from being if anything behind humans technologically to early 20th century technology overnight. In that time, they’ve adopted gunpowder weapons and gone through an industrial revolution, a process that took centuries historically. The tanks and things were probably only developed in the last decade or so, while before that the charr army was still a non-mechanised 1600-1850-style military force, for which well-made and -defended fortresses were still a major impediment.

@gattsuru

I read that book, too. Nowhere did they mention the size of the military forces involved. So, frankly? My version of it is still valid. Nice try, though.

Fantasy racism, so ridiculous a concept. Especially when people buy into it as though it were reality. Very questionable.

Direct from Word of Dev:

Scott McGough

Our world designers and writers approach the charr with a certain amount of gusto. After all, it’s just plain fun to write for the bad guys, especially when you get to explore their point of view, in which they’re the good guys. We know some people will feel a lingering resentment of the charr—probably because of that whole Searing thing—in addition to the gleeful anticipation of getting inside their fur, so our guiding principle for writing them has been to delve into some of the unexplored charr virtues (industry, discipline, fearlessness) along with their well known vices (aggression, bloodthirst, and ruthlessness). Balancing the admirable traits with the fearsome ones allows us to present a more complete picture of charr society without negating or retconning their violent history.

http://www.arena.net/blog/scott-mcgough-on-writing-the-charr

Charr are awesome, but peaceful they are not. In fact, part of what makes them awesome is that you can see they still have those flaws, but have achieved everything they have in the past few years – building an industrial nation, maintaining their unity (more or less), and making peace with a people with whom they’ve been enemies for more than a thousand years (again, more or less).

The books don’t give numbers to the besieging forces – hey, they’re novels, not history texts. However, Edge of Destiny describes what sounds like a serious effort to bring down Ebonhawke before the renewed gate changes the tide in chapter 28, right before Kralkatorrik arrives. What Ghosts of Ascalon describes, on the other hand, sounds more like a holding position, but from the encounter when the group emerges from the sewer, it sounds to me that they didn’t have orders to assault at the time, but their rules of engagement did cover taking advantage of an opportunity if it was offered. Of course, the purpose of these RoE may have been Smodur not wanting to threaten the peace, but also not wanting to reveal to the besiegers that peace was on the table until it was actually decided.

Anyway, I also wanted to address this:

AuldWolf

If you swapped the positions of the charr and the humans, the charr would have their region running like clockwork within the week, and humanity would be extinct.

I’ve said this before, but once you get past appearances and religion charr and humans actually have more similarities than differences. In fact, it’s the similarities more than the differences that have caused their shared centuries of violent history.

One of those similarities is that collectively they’re both races of tenacious hardkittens that stubbornly refuse to give up when under pressure. The other is a tendency to fall to bickering among themselves. It was internal fighting among the charr that allowed Ascalon to be established, and fighting among the human nations that allowed the charr to take it back (and even then, if Adelbern had accepted help from other human nations, it’s possible that the charr would have been held back in the end despite the Searing).

At the moment, the problems Kryta are having are arguably self-inflicted – there’s a lot of circumstantial evidence that the success the centaurs have been having can be traced to Caudecus’ efforts to steal the throne from Jennah. That’s probably a risk he’s only willing to take because he feels that once he gains power and the sabotage stops, humanity will be able to decisively beat back the centaurs – thus further consolidating Caudecus’ image as a better leader than Jennah.

For the charr, on the other hand, the Legions of the Charr article indicates that the charr might have maintained their unity because of their common enemies:

The Legions of the Charr

Even after the charr recovered Ascalon, there were many challenges to overcome. The three legions of old (Iron, Ash, and Blood) struggled to establish their identities and hierarchies. Many leaders who continued to be faithful to the Flame Legion’s regime were assassinated or overcome in combat. New voices rose in their place, and the charr as a race fragmented. Only through the strength of the warbands, with their natural adherence to the chain of command, did the nation of charr survive this turbulent period. And, in an irony that was not lost on the charr, Adelbern’s final curse became an integral part of that survival.

Once the Flame Legion’s hold was broken, the shamans and their followers fled into the Blazeridge Mountains to lick their wounds. Escape was possible primarily because the other three legions were so focused on rebuilding their internal hierarchies after generations of Flame Legion control. But after the structures of Iron, Ash, and Blood were rebuilt, it seemed almost impossible that the three legions wouldn’t immediately fall upon one another and take advantage of any weaknesses, potentially eradicating themselves.

That’s exactly what might have happened, had it not been for the ghosts of Ascalon.

Adelbern’s curse upon the lands of Ascalon swept through the humans. In a white-hot moment, it destroyed their physical forms and cursed their spirits to wander the land, forever fighting against the charr. Because the ghostly enemy was unrelenting and never completely defeated, the High Legions of the charr were forced to work together from the outset if they wished to survive. Although they detested the forced unity, the need to defend themselves and Ascalon taught the three legions how to work together without sacrificing their individuality.

Currently, the Iron, Ash, and Blood Legions operate under a shaky alliance. Smodur the Unflinching commands the Iron Legion from his stronghold in the Black Citadel. East, across the Blazeridge Mountains, Imperator Bangar Ruinbringer controls the lands of the Blood Legion. Malice Swordshadow, a young female charr, rules as imperator of the Ash Legion. Although the three legions bicker and occasionally squabble, they have managed to maintain the general state of accord. Each legion is independent, but all three send troops and support to Ascalon to eradicate the human threat. Smodur knows full well that Malice’s troops are there not only to aid, but also to spy for their imperator; however, the two leaders respect one another. Bangar is the true wild card, distrustful and prone to rage. Still, his hatred for humans overcomes his suspicions about the other imperators, and he has committed a great number of troops to the Black Citadel’s command.

http://www.arena.net/blog/the-legions-of-the-charr#more-4939

I kept the last paragraph in partly for completeness, and partially because it might be foreshadowing disunity to come – with such a hatred of humans Bangar might not be too happy with the treaty, and may in fact be secretly backing the Renegedes.

So, if we imagine that the charr and humans got transplanted so that charr had the relatively safe land (Divinity’s Reach is described in EoD as a ‘city of peace’, suggesting that the centaur invasion and bandit troubles started between EoD and GoA) and it was humans that had to cope with ghosts? It’s possible that that would have allowed the civil war to resume, while humans, without the luxury to engage in political bickering, would have hunkered down and kept the ghosts under control. In fact, it’s possible that humans would have dealt with the ghosts better than the charr. Humans are a more spiritual race than the charr, and priests of Grenth have experience in appeasing spirits or forcing them to go to the Underworld anyway if they refuse to listen, while the only solution the charr have apparently attempted to apply is the military one, albeit with some unusual technology (the containment devices are really just glorified PW camps). We see in Ascalon Catacombs that the ghost’s leaders are lucid enough to talk to, and Eir attempts to do so before Rytlock keeps interrupting her to pick a fight – it’s possible that if it was humans that had the ghost problem, they would have found a permanent solution to it by now.

My belief is that the real “big guns” that we see everywhere today were made VERY recently,not more than 60 years ago,and they were too busy using them on other things(the Brand,the Flame Legion) to bother with trying to crack the proverbial shell of Ebonhawke,if Ebonhawke was a giant egg with a shell made of thick reinforced stone that refused to crack after years of constant hitting-with-spoon.

Shadowdawn.7946:

Surbrus.6942:

All the High Legions have strayed from their path. Iron is too concerned with peace, and using propaganda to confuse the past (Flame Legion called “traitors”, when they are responsible for turning the Charr into a force to be reckoned with and the retaking of Ascalon). The Flame Legion is too busy with their search for false gods. Ash and Blood simply lack the initiative.

Ash are busy stopping Flame trying to kill everyone, and making sure assassins and spies die before they can get anywhere. I agree, Blood are idiots who lack initiative. I find it amusing that you called the one legion with the most thieves, lacking initiative. I think that’s the one thing they don’t lack.

My Charr thief is always lacking initiative

And do charr bombs do more damage than human longbows? No. Case solved.

Elricht Kaltwind.8796:

And do charr bombs do more damage than human longbows? No. Case solved.

So, that is the reason why pact forces shun all modern technology and rather deploy archers at the Orrian front instead of charr choppers and tanks.
Not even close. Try again!

Ahh, but the Pact also uses swords, bows, and magic, and Zhaitan’s armies are if anything more hidebound than Ebonhawke’s. The best technology doesn’t always trump everything in a world of magic and heroes.

Not to mention that for a good while, the longbow was superior to the early rifle inventions.

As for why the Charr didn’t get through the walls, as cool as Charr are, the humans from Guild Wars are nothing to scoff at either. They’re masters of spellcasting, especially their ‘elites’ and Ebonhawke was stuffed with some of the best warriors, mages and tacticians Ascalon had to offer. The walls may have been stone, but who’s to say they weren’t bolstered through magic?

Not to mention expert guerilla fighters, and it seems the charr never managed to completely block off non-gate access into and out of Ebonhawke. One of the explorable paths in CoF is lead by an ex-Ebon Vanguard who specialised in sabotaging the charr siege weapon… rescuing the engineer whose siege weapons she specialised in sabotaging.

I think Kranxx summed it up best in Ghosts of Ascalon – the charr are very good at building machines to knock walls down, while the Ebon Vanguard are very good at preventing those machines from doing what they were built to do.