Guild Wars 2

If Queen Jennah suddenly waged war against the Charr to reclaim Ascalon, would we fight back and destroy divinity’s reach ?

Sigh. this topic was done in human section, it won’t happen because Humanity doesn’t have the strength to wage war against the Centaurs and the Charr at the same time, much less hold or defend Ascalon against the threats native to the region…

Charr, at the same time, likely don’t care to add another large region to their holdings that is complete with native problems as well.

edit: Indeed, if Jennah did suddenly turn kittened and waged war against the Charr despite the dragon threat and the peace treaty SHE freaking started… the Charr would likely just do defense actions as they really don’t have the means to deploy a large army where ever they want, because of ghosts, brand, and flame legion. They cannot afford to leave themselves weak to any of those threats, or local threats like ogres.

Should the peace treaty be canceled, I think it’s more interesting to ask:
- What would happen with the three orders and The Pact? Would charr and humans still be able to work together?
- How would the other races react? Would they ignore their war, or would they take sides?

Deltor Delore.8267:

Should the peace treaty be canceled, I think it’s more interesting to ask:
- What would happen with the three orders and The Pact? Would charr and humans still be able to work together?
- How would the other races react? Would they ignore their war, or would they take sides?

The Orders are above the issues that the regions have. They state this a number of times. Even Hiroki (the human) in the Vigil said that fighting the dragons is more important to her than protecting Queen Jennah. Logan wasn’t exactly pleased with this answer.

So I don’t think the Pact would be affected all that much, maybe some slight tensions. But overall it wouldn’t affect it quite as much as one might think given the Pact’s goals are different than the regions and their politics.

As for the other races, they suffer their own problems and/or lack the resources needed in order to wage any notable wars. Joining or choosing a side would bode ill in either regard as well. So I don’t think they would get involved.

Either way, the Charr would basically be forced to march an army to DR by method of the shiverpeaks and then through all of Kryta.’

A lengthy march, and highly dangerous. It simply isn’t worth it.

Regardless of the unlikeliness of this happening let me get this straight – you are asking if a race that is based on military values, with traits (as per lore) such as fearlessness, ruthlessness – a disciplined but bloodthirsty and aggressive folk – would, if declared war upon – strike out and seek to destroy the enemy?

Or are we discussing tactics and strategy? I’d let them run into the cannon fire of my humongous motorcycles first, but afterwards I would raze their city.

If the question is whether or not to conquer and annex the land at the same time … who knows, some upstart centurion might want to become immortal and make a name for himself. Perhaps Evon might try to buy DR, expand the BLTC a bit.

The “tactics” part is where this falls short. Any sort of military force that could take DR would have to leave Ascalon, cross the shiverpeaks, then all of Kryta, then assault DR.

That’s a very long trek, with a LOT of hostile forces on the way, even assuming the Lionguard, Vigil, or Norn don’t try to stop them.

And even then DR’s walls are akin to Ebonhawkes, and we all know how long it took the Charr to breach those… Charr can’t afford to deploy such a force with the ghosts, orges, flame legion, branded, and other native threats in Ascalon.

edit: Oh god, and the supply trains/logistics would be hell.

I mean, I recall talking to an NPC and mentioning that RIGHT NOW the Charr have trouble at times supplying the outlying warbands/forcings with ammo/the latest weapons.

Imagine that, only stretched from Ascalon to almost the western edge of kryta?

I have no issue with the assessment, but it’s not like there is any specific scenario given. If blood would have been spilled, outpost destroyed perhaps, I personally could still imagine retaliation no matter the cost from a race like that.

Quite honest from my point of view there is a discrepancy between how the race is described and how they are portrayed in the game – as in being too human in their reactions. But subconsciously I might also be more thinking about the Kzinti from Larry Niven, which where also somewhat subdued over time but still showed more violent tendencies.

Eh, I’d say they are more friendly because of the fact now they have plenty of bad guys, and they don’t need to add to the list.

Why continue waging war with humanity when they got enough issues at home?

Now true, if a settlement got destroyed they’d react to it, probably badly. But I see them now as being able to see priorities.

Given the humans can’t even defend their own people from centaurs, in Kryta, the idea of them being able to march an army to Ascalon is laughable. They’d never even make the shiverpeaks with a significant force cos they’d have no supply line left what with the centaurs roaming much of Kryta at will. As for would the Charr fight back. Well after they stopped laughing their tails off watching the human army’s logistics train fall apart, they would probably send in a few war machines for a little “Demonstation” raid into Kryta before offering terms for cease fire (which would not be cheap if the humans started the fight). While better than those of the humans, Charr logistics are not so elastic as to support a long term occupation of Kryta.

Kalavier.1097:

The “tactics” part is where this falls short. Any sort of military force that could take DR would have to leave Ascalon, cross the shiverpeaks, then all of Kryta, then assault DR.

That’s a very long trek, with a LOT of hostile forces on the way, even assuming the Lionguard, Vigil, or Norn don’t try to stop them.

And even then DR’s walls are akin to Ebonhawkes, and we all know how long it took the Charr to breach those… Charr can’t afford to deploy such a force with the ghosts, orges, flame legion, branded, and other native threats in Ascalon.

edit: Oh god, and the supply trains/logistics would be hell.

I mean, I recall talking to an NPC and mentioning that RIGHT NOW the Charr have trouble at times supplying the outlying warbands/forcings with ammo/the latest weapons.

Imagine that, only stretched from Ascalon to almost the western edge of kryta?

This does of course completely depend on the Humans’ ability to shut off Asura Gates and Waypoints… Logan might be a bit too busy running back to the Queen. To quote a fellow Guardian, 3x “Retreat!” on his bar…

Even if they did so, assuming the Vigil again takes no part, what’s to stop the Charr marching an army through the portal to Ghetto-LA?

In any case it is indeed a rather pointless question, Krytans declaring war to reclaim their homeland of Ascalo- oh wait…

Because Asura explicitly allow others to use the gate with the purpose of “Can’t use it to wage war.”

Aka, the Charr can’t march an army through the Asura gate, through LA/vigil keep, and into the DR Asura Gate for purpose of invading Kryta.

ALL Asura gates have an operator and assisstants nearby. It wouldn’t take them long to shut them down or sabotage the gate if it came to it.

edit: likewise, it stands to reason that asura waypoints can’t transfer large numbers of people or supplies effectively or within reasonable price, as noted by EVERYBODY using supply caravans instead of waypointing materials there.

Queen Jennah would never manage to declare war against the Charr; the Ministry Council (which still seems to wield considerable power) would almost certainly block her. Even though Caudecus and his bloc would like to see Jennah brought low, I’m certain that getting Kryta into war with the Charr would prove more costly than it was worth.

But supposing it DID happen, I think the Charr would likely fight a defensive war for a few years until they can find a way to get their big siege machines and tanks to Kryta. Since the Asura would remain neutral and not allow war machines through their gates, they’d have to get their war machines over the Shiverpeaks to bring them to bear, and I don’t think those massive steam devices would fare very well in thick snow and freezing temperatures, and their sheer size/weight means they can’t be shipped via sea (except as parts that can be reassembled at location).

Without their siege engines, the Charr army would not stand a good chance of tearing down Krytan defensive installations, which has always been their stumbling block. (The Great Northern Wall in GW1, as a good point.)

And Ebonhawke, as I’ve read and heard, eventually became little more then a Charr siege weapon testing ground, since they could never breach it. The walls at Divinity’s Reach look to be just as hefty, disregarding the houses at the top of the wall.

But yeah, even in Jennah wanted a war (completely out of character for her) the Ministry would block it.

Zaxares.5419:

Queen Jennah would never manage to declare war against the Charr; the Ministry Council (which still seems to wield considerable power) would almost certainly block her.

Actually, I would think it would be many of the ministry who would fly off the handle and do something stupid like that before Queen Jennah ever did.

Jennah and her seraph seem to be the ones who keep them in check, not the other way around.

Hmm, I don’t think so. The impression I get of the Ministry is that many of them are “patch defenders”; they look out for their own self-interests first and aren’t interested in doing anything which might impact them economically or personally. Ambient dialogue in DR tells us that some of them advocate pulling away Seraph protection for towns like the Ascalon Settlement, for example, in favour of providing greater security closer to home.

With that in mind, it seems highly unlikely that they’d go to war with the Charr when that means a very real threat of Kryta getting invaded by a military force even stronger than that of the Centaurs.

The Charr may be the biggest military power in Tyria, but they can’t simply do whatever they want, that is wishful thinking. They would fend off an attack on Ascalon for sure, but taking Kryta and destroying Divinity’s Reach? They couldn’t take Ebonhawke in 250 years.

I think the charr would first take Ebonhawke. In terms of lore it is still a ruin. Even tho this is not depicted in the game. But the books describe the walls of Ebonhawke burnt down by Kralkatorrik. So there´s not much that´d stop a Charr army from marching in there for a picnic.

And i am still curious what the asura would do if the Charr would simply take over the gates. I mean how many of those little creatures are there to guard a gate? And as far as we know there´s no central controling mechanism. So i´d say that 2 warbands could easily secure the asura gates to open a way for an entire army to march through.

In terms of Lore, it’s a city with (as of Kralk’s awakening moment) a smashed gate.

However, since the cease fire was instantly formed around that time, the Ebon Vanguard could have easily repaired the gate back to it’s former self. It’s not a ruin, it’s still very much a functional city and fortress.

As for the gates, I think if Ebonhawke was under attack and the gates breached, the Asura would shut off the gate to prevent it from being used that way. I don’t think it takes long to shut the thing down.

In terms of Lore Ebonhawke is fully defensible, there is no breached gate. Kralkatorrik’s awakening was five years ago (1320), or even longer if you take the Living World storyline into account. Long enough to repair anything.

Zaxares.5419:

Hmm, I don’t think so. The impression I get of the Ministry is that many of them are “patch defenders”; they look out for their own self-interests first and aren’t interested in doing anything which might impact them economically or personally. Ambient dialogue in DR tells us that some of them advocate pulling away Seraph protection for towns like the Ascalon Settlement, for example, in favour of providing greater security closer to home.

With that in mind, it seems highly unlikely that they’d go to war with the Charr when that means a very real threat of Kryta getting invaded by a military force even stronger than that of the Centaurs.

Yeah, one pair of random dialogue has one guy trying to argue with another minister for greater Seraph presence out toward Nebo and Ascalon Settlement, and the other says they need those forces if the Centaurs push, and if “They could push the front lines out that far then they could do it.”

He responds with “We represent the interests of those outside the city as well…”
And she bluntly goes “Then they should move into DR were we can keep them safe!”

Besides the one who rants against the Charr being untrustworthy, the Ministry wouldn’t support it :P.

My problem with the Ebonhawke wall argument, is that place has plot armor. If you strip the plot armor that place would be bombarded by every siege machine the charr could muster and those walls would crumble.

Khandarus.2738:

My problem with the Ebonhawke wall argument, is that place has plot armor. If you strip the plot armor that place would be bombarded by every siege machine the charr could muster and those walls would crumble.

Have you seen the thickness of the walls?

With Flame Legion and ghosts, the Charr were forced to divert forces to keep those at bay. Even then, as I recall the tale going… it started with everybody sieging Ebonhawke.

Then Ash/blood legion got bored/fed up with it and left.

Then Iron legion got bored of it, and they left mostly too, leaving behind a force to bombard the walls, test new siege weapons, and keep the siege going.

And now? The charr CAN’T muster a force big enough to destroy Ebonhawke. The Brand literally is a border that is (in canon/lore) hell to cross.

Kalavier.1097:

Khandarus.2738:

My problem with the Ebonhawke wall argument, is that place has plot armor. If you strip the plot armor that place would be bombarded by every siege machine the charr could muster and those walls would crumble.

Have you seen the thickness of the walls?

With Flame Legion and ghosts, the Charr were forced to divert forces to keep those at bay. Even then, as I recall the tale going… it started with everybody sieging Ebonhawke.

Then Ash/blood legion got bored/fed up with it and left.

Then Iron legion got bored of it, and they left mostly too, leaving behind a force to bombard the walls, test new siege weapons, and keep the siege going.

And now? The charr CAN’T muster a force big enough to destroy Ebonhawke. The Brand literally is a border that is (in canon/lore) hell to cross.

In the game before any of the dragons came about while they where dealing with ghost and flame legion.

There is a vigil quest where an NPC says, “That is the first time they attacked inside the walls”

Yes, EbonHawke has plot armor. Do you think Ash and blood would sit with their thumbs up their kitten and wait for Iron to knock down the walls?

“Prior to beginning of peace negotiations between the charr and humans, ever since the fall of Ascalon City, the charr laid siege to the fortress giving no rest until now. Over time, many charr thought the fortress is not worth the effort, so only the Iron Legion and a few individual warbands continued to attack the fortress with their siege weapons. "

The wording of the mission you speak is…
Commander Samuelsson: Your timing was perfect, Warmaster Kernsson. I can’t thank you enough.
Commander Samuelsson: The Renegades are getting bolder. This is the first time they’ve ever tried to bomb the fortress from the inside.

Talking purely about the Renegade charr, not the Charr in general.

Khandarus.2738:

Yes, EbonHawke has plot armor. Do you think Ash and blood would sit with their thumbs up their kitten and wait for Iron to knock down the walls?

No, I never said that. I believe I said… this…

Even then, as I recall the tale going… it started with everybody sieging Ebonhawke.

Then Ash/blood legion got bored/fed up with it and left.

Then Iron legion got bored of it, and they left mostly too, leaving behind a force to bombard the walls, test new siege weapons, and keep the siege going.

Which says all three legions (at the time) assaulted the wall. Eventually, it was just Iron, then went down to a few Iron legion warbands.

Now the wiki says that is was Iron legion + a few individual warbands, so slightly off what I said. Again, if the charr wanted to assault Ebonhawke with the full force of their legions (Ignoring the fact it’d let the ghosts and flame legion rampage through their holdings)… they’d have to cross the brand. Which isn’t easy for small groups so why would it be easy for an army plus caravans and siege equipment?

Also… I think Charr warmachines were primarily developed during the civil war with the Flame Legion, meaning they’re made to take on Flame Legion and Ascalon’s Ghosts, rather than actually trying to take on fortified holdings. Good AoE, but they haven’t had a need for wall-breaker weapons until they tried taking on Ebonhawke, and have been trying R&D to develop new ones.

CETheLucid.3964:

Zaxares.5419:

Queen Jennah would never manage to declare war against the Charr; the Ministry Council (which still seems to wield considerable power) would almost certainly block her.

Actually, I would think it would be many of the ministry who would fly off the handle and do something stupid like that before Queen Jennah ever did.

Jennah and her seraph seem to be the ones who keep them in check, not the other way around.

Pretty much. Making peace with the charr – an unpopular move in many quarters – is one of the criticisms Caudecus’ block levy against the queen. Of course, whether this represents their true feelings or whether it’s just opportunistically criticising every move Jennah makes is open to interpretation…

…but given there’s considerable evidence that Caudecus is trying to pull a Palpatine and has in fact arranged a lot of Kryta’s problems, including helping the centaurs, if Caudecus wants to resume war, than I suspect a lot of Kryta’s problems will mysteriously dissipate as soon as they’re no longer convenient for him.

Name.9625:

I think the charr would first take Ebonhawke. In terms of lore it is still a ruin. Even tho this is not depicted in the game. But the books describe the walls of Ebonhawke burnt down by Kralkatorrik. So there´s not much that´d stop a Charr army from marching in there for a picnic.

Lorewise, Ebonhawke got repaired before a new charr army arrived. Remember, Edge of Destiny was set before Ghosts of Ascalon, even if the latter was published first. What we see ingame is Ebonhawke’s current state, at least of 1325AE.

Regarding the line about the renegedes in the Vigil storyline being the first to try bombing inside the walls – it’s the first time they got the opportunity. The treaty naturally involves having less extreme security, since neither side can assume that a member of another race is hostile any more. This means Renegedes can get into Ebonhawke pretending to be treaty-abiding charr, just like it explains why Seperatists can operate pretty much throughout what was, in Ghosts of Ascalon, solidly charr-held territory.

If war broke out again, it’d probably turn back into the same stalemate it was before. If the human side got surprise, it might be able to reclaim a wedge of territory between the Brand and the Blazeridge… but that’s as far as it’s likely to go. And Smodur seems to be willing to give a lot of that to Ebonhawke anyway.

(Regarding the asura gates – modern gates need to accept the transit from both ends. Without the acquiescence of the other end, no connection can be made. So if the charr were to seize a gate by force, even if they figured out how to operate it (secrets the asura guard fiercely) they wouldn’t be able to use it offensively because nobody they’d be looking to attack would accept a connection from the seized gate.)

Kalavier.1097:

Because Asura explicitly allow others to use the gate with the purpose of “Can’t use it to wage war.”

Yet the Asura allowed Fort Ebonhawke to use the asura gate to be supplied during the war with the Charr.

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Kalavier.1097:

Because Asura explicitly allow others to use the gate with the purpose of “Can’t use it to wage war.”

Yet the Asura allowed Fort Ebonhawke to use the asura gate to be supplied during the war with the Charr.

As far as I remember, because that was supplies.

Nobody was marching through the gate to instantly start murdering Ebonhawke citizens.

Kalavier.1097:

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Kalavier.1097:

Because Asura explicitly allow others to use the gate with the purpose of “Can’t use it to wage war.”

Yet the Asura allowed Fort Ebonhawke to use the asura gate to be supplied during the war with the Charr.

As far as I remember, because that was supplies.

Nobody was marching through the gate to instantly start murdering Ebonhawke citizens.

Those supplies were for war purposes though. Without supplies Ebonhawke would have been significantly weaker. Proper supplies can be the difference between victory or defeat.

I can’t find the wording right now, but I recall it was more directly in line with “You can’t just march an army through an Asura gate (from say, Black Citadel to LA) and instantly start fighting the local people.”

It may have been tweaked or changed with Release/after release though. Supplies are one thing, swarming through to kill the locals no (otherwise if the Charr wanted Kryta they’d just have to march and army through their gate, and into the DR gate).

Trade is still conducted during wartime. The Asura likely would not have stopped shipments of food, construction materials and even travellers going through the gates to Ebonhawke, even though technically all of these could have helped the Vanguard’s war effort.

Most likely the Asura allow free passage of anything through the gates as long as it’s not with direct, immediate hostile intent. Sending a bomb through a gate would have been a big no-no, but the materials to make said bomb? Sure. Of course, the authorities on either side of the gate may have their own customs and border agents to restrict the flow of such materials, but as far as the Asura are concerned, that’s not their business. They keep the gates open and collect fees; that’s all that matters.

Basically, that seems to be it. You can’t launch an assault through a gate – the asura won’t let you, and even if you force them, the connection won’t be made unless the gate on the other side accepts. (In fact, the impression that I get is that forming a connection requires both gates to attune to the other gate simultaneously – all gate connections require a prior arrangement to connect to one another at a preplanned time).

However, if both sides of the gate are effectively your territory, the asura don’t care what you send through. You can use gates to shift soldiers and supplies all you like (as long as you continue to pay the asura in charge) as long as its within your own territory or between allies – they just won’t let you use the gates as a means of inserting troops into someone else’s territory.

And they also don’t care about historical claims, so no splitting hairs about how Ascalon “should” be wholly charr or wholly human.

draxynnic.3719:

And they also don’t care about historical claims, so no splitting hairs about how Ascalon “should” be wholly charr or wholly human.

Especially because all the land belongs to the Asura.