Guild Wars 2

Evolutionarily, I’m wondering why the Charr have horns? They don’t ever seem to use them, and they’re kind of a big feature to not have gone away over the course of evolution if they’re not of use.

But I’ve never seen a Charr headbutt someone (ouch!) or physically lock horns with another Charr or even try at a last-ditch horn stab. Did the Charr used to do these sort of things? Is there a use for the horns now that I’m not aware of?

Thoughts and wisdom appreciated.

Same reason we have wisdom teeth and fingernails? They just never lost them. Evolution doesn’t get rid of things we don’t need, it tends to get rid of the things that limit an individual ability to survive till reproduction. We may have a case like male peac*cks where too big is a survival detriment but too small means less chance of mating.

In battle, horns may easily be of great use or charr society may look at horn size and/or shape as a qulity of a potential mate.

Maybe they’re an appearence-based adaptation, rather than a functional one. The horns make them more attractive to the opposite sex or whatever, that sort of thing. Like how male birds have bright colors, though in this case it goes for both genders.

Though I’ve never heard any Charr make any reference to that sort of thing, so that might not be it either. Asura view large ears as attractive, but they actually hint at that in-game.

They could be purely protective. Horns can protect the head and (depending on length and shape) neck from attacks.

Though the most likely answer is that they’re there just because they look cool and the devs really didn’t think of a logical reason for it beyond that.

There is a kodan in Blue Ice Shining with a theory on this. Defensive adaptation, I think.

Personally I’d guess it makes going for the head/neck more dangerous.

Ben K.6238:

Personally I’d guess it makes going for the head/neck more dangerous.

I like this one. They would require more specific targeting when going for the head and neck while also creating distance unless that enemy wants to get caught by a horn sweep from those huge neck muscles.

I suspect that for males, large horns are a sign of good health and reproductive ability. A male with stunted horns could have health or genetic problems, and as such stunted horns are probably seen as an ugly trait.
For females, the horns are much smaller on average, so they probably aren’t as important for attracting a mate. With females, it’s probably all in the tail. A full-furred, fluffy tail is a sign of good health—so tails could be how they attract a mate.

At any rate, since large horns are an attractive male feature, it would mean more large-horned males get to reproduce and pass the trait of horns down to their offspring. So, the charr race keeps their horns.

Dustfinger.9510:

Same reason we have wisdom teeth and fingernails? They just never lost them.

Except we’re watching wisdom teeth be removed from our genepool. The percentage of people who have them is exponentially shrinking over time, at least according to the studies I’ve recently seen referenced.

And horns are kinda bigger than teeth in the if-not-useful-then-in-the-way department. Human beings did loose vestigial ears (though we kept some muscle in the area, which is what allows some people to wiggle their ears) and massive amounts of body hair (even the hairiest dude is pretty darn hairless for a mammal). Big useless things tend to go away over the course of evolution, which is what makes me wonder if the Charr actually use their horns.

The attractiveness theories are neat…that could explain why the horns can take so many different shapes.

azureai.9764:

Except we’re watching wisdom teeth be removed from our genepool. The percentage of people who have them is exponentially shrinking over time, at least according to the studies I’ve recently seen referenced.

And horns are kinda bigger than teeth in the if-not-useful-then-in-the-way department. Human beings did loose vestigial ears (though we kept some muscle in the area, which is what allows some people to wiggle their ears) and massive amounts of body hair (even the hairiest dude is pretty darn hairless for a mammal). Big useless things tend to go away over the course of evolution, which is what makes me wonder if the Charr actually use their horns.

The attractiveness theories are neat…that could explain why the horns can take so many different shapes.

We also see smaller horns but things only get “actively” eliminated if they help kill you before you can breed or the society has a stigma against it. Basically, it all depends on the ability to breed. If you can breed you pass on the genes. Other things may start to diluted becasue they don’t make a sizable impact so aren’t a factor either way but they aren’t lost within the species unless they are harmful. And in a warrior society like the Charr’s, i doubt they would ever just be in the not-useful-then-in-the-way department. Those that are too big can be sawn off to a more appropriate level as we see in character creation. So we have two factors working in favour of charr with horns, big and effective in combat or too big but able to be sawn down for effectiveness. While we have one against horns which is smaller horns that naturally pop up. but even then, those smaller horns don’t provide the benefit of horns so horns still hold an advantage to be passed on.

A common misunderstanding is that something is more or less “evolved” than something else. This implies that evolution has a goal. The reality is that evolution leans towards whatever characteristic is more helpful at any given moment. Sometimes more specialized (Or what people refer to as ‘more evolved’) is a detriment so it gets thinned out or eliminated. Vestigal characteristics don’t get removed, they are passed on in diffrent evolved forms (Including not there) becasue they make no diffrence either way.

It’s a bit tricky to say whether Charr evolved horns as an offensive or defensive measure, because of the wide variety that their horns can come in. Some horns, like forward-facing bull horns, are shaped that their function would be purely offensive (used for goring), but others like the oryx horns have more of a defensive function, and are used to protect the neck from attacks.

It may be that Charr originally consisted of dozens of sub-species, each with their own shape/style of horns, but all of them have interbred to the point where sub-species became irrelevant.

In humans, hairlessness is actually a ‘negative’ trait — without a coat of hair we’re more prone to sunburn and skin injury. The common theory is that it was a mutation that early humans found attractive, and that’s the only reason why it got perpetuated in our species.

As has been mentioned above with peafowl (and many other types of birds), some physical traits develop purely for beauty’s sake, and not because they’re ‘useful’. Same is probably true for Charr horns.

Pietoro.2014:

In humans, hairlessness is actually a ‘negative’ trait — without a coat of hair we’re more prone to sunburn and skin injury. The common theory is that it was a mutation that early humans found attractive, and that’s the only reason why it got perpetuated in our species.

As has been mentioned above with peafowl (and many other types of birds), some physical traits develop purely for beauty’s sake, and not because they’re ‘useful’. Same is probably true for Charr horns.

Yeah, at the same time, hairlessness helped us develop our brains; it caused us the need to develop better shelter and create clothes.

Yeah, I think I’m buying into the there-for-beauty argument. I wonder if the shape and size, ect., are indicators of health? Or give off signals, like how a woman’s skin turns red when she’s ovulating?

Pietoro.2014:

In humans, hairlessness is actually a ‘negative’ trait — without a coat of hair we’re more prone to sunburn and skin injury. The common theory is that it was a mutation that early humans found attractive, and that’s the only reason why it got perpetuated in our species.

I remember reading somewhere that humans in hotter climates evolved towards hairlessness because sweating was a much more efficient method of keeping cool, and because a lack of hair made it harder for skin parasites like mites or ticks to remain hidden, allowing us to find and remove them and reduce incidences of parasitic diseases.

Sunburn was probably less of an issue when most of us had dark skin and lived beneath an o-zone layer in the atmosphere. :P

O……zone? what manner of sorcery is this??!!?

Because reasons.

They likely developed horns for defense and offense before weapons came about. Its the reason why we have finger nails (claws). Also, it could be a sexual thing. The more horn you have the more resources you need to build them and the tougher you need to be to keep them, therefore the mate with the biggest, elaborate, colorful set wins.

Why do Charr have horns?

So Logan has something to hang onto!

Alistor.1089:

Why do Charr have horns?

So Logan has something to hang onto!

While Rytlock does…what exactly to Logan? ;D

I just imagined Logan riding Rytlock like a pony, using the horns as handlebars. Oh, the implications.

Probably used to attract mates.

azureai.9764:

Alistor.1089:

Why do Charr have horns?

So Logan has something to hang onto!

While Rytlock does…what exactly to Logan? ;D

I just imagined Logan riding Rytlock like a pony, using the horns as handlebars. Oh, the implications.

…does your imagination have an off switch? Can I flip it?

It’s just there to look cool I think. Evolutionary it makes no sense because they are a cross of feline/bovine features and it alone makes no sense. Even their large teeth make no sense. They wouldn’t be able to speak with such large teeth or develop large brains…why do you think we humans have such tiny teeth? Yea so our brains could get more space in our skull and therefore our jaw muscles grew weak. In fact, not a single thing about their anatomy makes any sense whatsoever. It’s just fantasy and correct biology doesn’t apply here.

Altough I did wonder the same thing and I expected to have some kind of skill where I can puncture enemies with horns.

I’ve never thought about the teeth thing. You’re right; it would be difficult to develop language with those in your mouth (though the Charr seem to talk just fine). Maybe the Charr were forced to develop language by intelligent competition and it didn’t happen spontaneously for them.

Easy. They’re Thundercats from Hell.

Next question?

CharrGirl.7896:

Even their large teeth make no sense. They wouldn’t be able to speak with such large teeth or develop large brains…why do you think we humans have such tiny teeth? Yea so our brains could get more space in our skull and therefore our jaw muscles grew weak.

There isn’t a fixed volume limit for skulls. Humans can afford smaller and weaker jaws because we don’t kill things with them anymore, Ozzy Osbourne excepted. Charr brains look to be larger than an entire human skull (simply because their heads are bigger).

Ben K.6238:

CharrGirl.7896:

Even their large teeth make no sense. They wouldn’t be able to speak with such large teeth or develop large brains…why do you think we humans have such tiny teeth? Yea so our brains could get more space in our skull and therefore our jaw muscles grew weak.

There isn’t a fixed volume limit for skulls. Humans can afford smaller and weaker jaws because we don’t kill things with them anymore, Ozzy Osbourne excepted. Charr brains look to be larger than an entire human skull (simply because their heads are bigger).

In addition, a brain’s size does not nessecarily determine intellegence or complexity. There are limitless ways in which something can evolve and gain intellegence—the way we have is just one

I think it’s funny that we’re discussing the evolutionary possibilities of the Charr in a game where the humans are, literally, inter-dimensional (or inter-planetary) aliens created by their gods, they dwarf race basically made themselves extinct via magic, and there exists a race of large, humanoid creatures that have somehow survived the eons despite having a general racial bent towards getting themselves slaughtered in extreme and creative ways (the Norn).

That having been said:

Female Charr: “Man, look at the pair on that male! He can gore me any time…”

Manijin.3428:

Female Charr: “Man, look at the pair on that male! He can gore me any time…”

Haha

Male Charr: "Dude, that female has one sexy tail! "

Manijin.3428:

and there exists a race of large, humanoid creatures that have somehow survived the eons despite having a general racial bent towards getting themselves slaughtered in extreme and creative ways (the Norn).

Pffft. Norns that do get slaughtered in extreme and creative ways don’t get to breed, y’know?

Only the ones that do survive will!

Shadowdawn.7946:

No, they breed, then get slaughtered. How else would there still be Norns around?

I don’t think you read my post all the way through…

Weindrasi.3805:

Ben K.6238:

CharrGirl.7896:

Even their large teeth make no sense. They wouldn’t be able to speak with such large teeth or develop large brains…why do you think we humans have such tiny teeth? Yea so our brains could get more space in our skull and therefore our jaw muscles grew weak.

There isn’t a fixed volume limit for skulls. Humans can afford smaller and weaker jaws because we don’t kill things with them anymore, Ozzy Osbourne excepted. Charr brains look to be larger than an entire human skull (simply because their heads are bigger).

In addition, a brain’s size does not nessecarily determine intellegence or complexity. There are limitless ways in which something can evolve and gain intellegence—the way we have is just one

True this is just one, but proven most successful. It’s the reason no other animal on planet is intelligent as we are. Brain size does not affect intelligence but body-brain size ratio + other things. All-in-all charr are based on big cats and it’s just fantasy in the end

Charr have horns because the ladies love the horns Am i right ladies ? ehh ?

…sexual selection… like breasts, but horns can never beat them! All hail to the womens breasts! I would like to post some Breast and horn comparison but I would get some problems with the forum rules.^^

Interesting topic. Here are two possibilities (of many).

Actually, according to here (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC54605 as I understood it) carnivora and artiodactyla are more closely related than the other main groups of eutheria. I’m not saying they can cross breed, but there may have been some predisposition in the genes that enabled early Charr to form small horns, or a change in development could have led to larger horns (mutations are funny). These horns would have been useful on fights, as cats tend to attack necks with paw swipes and bites. Horns could’ve helped defend/hurt opponents during fights.

Alternatively, Charr may have evolved from some artiodactyla line. That line has led to whales and a giant meat eating pig. It could also have lost hooves and formed a more pawlike foot, along with other more general carnivora traits. This thing then took on a niche similar to cats, and then Charr themselves. The horns were there the whole time, it was the rest of the body that changed.

Horns really make charr look like cows for me. So tupid. Even more so, because a lot of charr players tend to choose “zebra” colours.

Feline? More like herbivore.

People who say that horns make charr look like cows probably have never seen a cow in their lives, bonus points if they came from that stupid game with ugly cow people and therefore think that anything with horns and walking on two legs can only be some tauren copy. If that is your source of education, do yourself and us a favor and stay out of any discussion about charr appearance.

I find it hard to talk about evolution in a game world where we know practically nothing about possible predecessors. Adding magic into the mix does not make the list of possible origins any shorter.
Apparently there have been parallel developments of intelligence in quite a lot of species’ ancestors, because I find it hard to believe that there was one recent common ancestor for humans, charr and asura. So, at some point there might have been something resembling a horned cat with opposable thumbs learning to use rudimentary tools. Or there might have been some sort of magic whatchacalllit that started a series of wild mutations on otherwise ordinary animals and, voilá, intelligent cat-people with horns, semi-intelligent rat-people, arrogant floppy-eared shark-toothed mini-people etc. We simply can not know.

As to why charr did not lose those horns over the course of many generations… yeah, it is probably sexual.

A number of savanna dwelling mammals use horns as a body temperature regulator.

In these cases the horns are strewn with a mesh of blood vessels which carry body heat up into them and allow the horns to act like a radiator. The expansion or contraction of the the blood vessels regulates the flow of blood through the horns and thus, the flow of body heat.

I’d consider them a sexual type thing. If my female Charr were looking at males she would find the one with the big bad horns far more attractive than the male only able to grow baby horns. >w<

Perhaps it’s the same with the males. Perhaps not the size of the females horns but the shape, strength or sharpness? Who knows. I imagine most Charr men prefer the more fierce and strong looking ladies. Don’t want to be shamed with a wimpy cub.

Although I think it’d be really cool to see two male charrs headbutting each other.

Same reason we have wisdom teeth and fingernails? They just never lost them

We use our fingernails to scratch ourselves.

I like the defensive adaptation theory. Primitive charr would be into biting and mauling. The are aggressive by nature so would likely also compete for mates by fighting (like big cats). Horns may have been for both head protection and as a display to indicate strength. Nowadays they are just there…