Guild Wars 2

I don’t know where else to put this, so I’ll put this here.

Last night, I conducted an experiment where I placed an additional 116% MF buffs through various items and ran through the FGS champ train for an hour, then ran through it for an hour without the additional buffs. (My base magic find % is 93) The results were incredibly unsatisfying to say the least. No exotics either time, and one rare item for both times, outside of what was in the gilded strongboxes etc., which I’m told is not affected by your magic find %.

I guess what I’m asking is, does MF matter at all? Trying to save for Dusk (which is another matter completely… so freaking expensive), or find it, and it seems like MF doesn’t do anything.

P.S. This is my first MMO, so I don’t know if this type of thing is common or not. It’s bloody aggravating however, and is turning me off the game.

MF increases the odds of a drop to end up as a higher tier in rarity. Lets say you have enough MF to triple your current odds. If your odds for an exotic were 1% then what do you think your odds would be with MF? I personally would only use MF to farm for crafting ingredients.

Yes. Read my sig.

MF matters but probably not if you are going to be champ farming.
If you are going to boost your MF then do it while killing a mass quantity of things like you might do in the labyrinth not while champ farming in frostgorge. It might make sense to use MF if you are champ farming in queensdale or any non-80/high70s area.

Khisanth.2948:

MF matters but probably not if you are going to be champ farming.
If you are going to boost your MF then do it while killing a mass quantity of things like you might do in the labyrinth not while champ farming in frostgorge. It might make sense to use MF if you are champ farming in queensdale or any non-80/high70s area.

Yea it does help more for mass kill events, but it’s useful everywhere. I’ve gotten substantially more blues/greens/rares and the occasional exotic while champ farming (which helps get you even more mf)

I’ve slowed down greatly with my MF though (at 169% atm). Getting to around 150% is very easy and totally worth while. To get to 150% only needs about 10% of the total luck you would need to get to 300%. After 150% the amount of luck starts to go up pretty quickly until it caps at 30k/1% at 218%.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Luck

Even 1% MF is better than 0, so yes, it matters.

Thanks for all the responses everyone. I’ll try it out in different situations.

Vol.5241:

Yes. Read my sig.

What is your MF at and where do you usually farm?

Vol.5241:

Yes. Read my sig.

No. Sorry i have no sig.

It worked 2 months after release for me, now i don’t feel any difference (210%)

I have more rares / exotics from random world chests and guaranteed rewards chests.

ezd.6359:

Vol.5241:

Yes. Read my sig.

No. Sorry i have no sig.

It worked 2 months after release for me, now i don’t feel any difference (210%)

I have more rares / exotics from random world chests and guaranteed rewards chests.

Idk what you’re doing, but you might want to go try with something like a scarlet event. That’s been my sort of test event to see if I could notice the difference before and after my MF went up every 50% or so. It was a pretty obvious change in the overall quality of loot to me.

Aberrant.6749:

ezd.6359:

Vol.5241:

Yes. Read my sig.

No. Sorry i have no sig.

It worked 2 months after release for me, now i don’t feel any difference (210%)

I have more rares / exotics from random world chests and guaranteed rewards chests.

Idk what you’re doing, but you might want to go try with something like a scarlet event. That’s been my sort of test event to see if I could notice the difference before and after my MF went up every 50% or so. It was a pretty obvious change in the overall quality of loot to me.

More MF – less loot in numbers (perceived), but may be more greens than blues. It is not such a difference if you can loot rares / exotics from bosses and random chests :/ Nobody said you will loot more items, they are just more “rare”. But greens have same value as blues for me tbh

Just imagine 1 rare item ~= 30 silver, 1 platinum node ~6 silver. It is more profitable to gather resources in low level areas, than hunt for rares / exotics.

ezd.6359:

Aberrant.6749:

ezd.6359:

Vol.5241:

Yes. Read my sig.

No. Sorry i have no sig.

It worked 2 months after release for me, now i don’t feel any difference (210%)

I have more rares / exotics from random world chests and guaranteed rewards chests.

Idk what you’re doing, but you might want to go try with something like a scarlet event. That’s been my sort of test event to see if I could notice the difference before and after my MF went up every 50% or so. It was a pretty obvious change in the overall quality of loot to me.

More MF – less loot in numbers (perceived), but may be more greens than blues. It is not such a difference if you can loot rares / exotics from bosses and random chests :/ Nobody said you will loot more items, they are just more “rare”, but green == blue for me tbh

Just imagine 1 rare item ~= 30 silver, 1 platinum node ~6 silver. It is more profitable to gather resources in low level areas, than hunt for rares / exotics.

If you’re doing something like the aether farm and getting champ boxes + trash it becomes more worth while. Just wandering around killing random trash isn’t worth your while… I agree, but there is often trash mixed around other stuff that you want.

My english skills are too bad for explaining such things

Champ boxes? They are a part of guaranteed rewards program that makes MF even more useless

MF works only for random mobs (and 1 minimum blue item from boss of course). But numbers do the trick, i think it is better to kill 5 small mobs (i can do it solo very fast), than 1 boss (need zerg). Also, bosses stay isolated most of times. So i must decide to go with trains or farm solo (kill random mobs, gather resources etc). I think 2nd is more profitable. So i don’t follow trains. And i try to participate in farm events.

To be honest, i do it just for fun because i have my money from chests runs (i do it for empyreal fragments), chopping, mining and BLTC.

May be i am wrong, but i really don’t think MF worth efforts spent. Yes, i rise my MF, but i do it because it is free, not because i expect rain of “epics”.

MF give you more greens, may be 1 more exotic / week (+2 gold?). I mean really? It is what you want? More greens instead of whites/blue? This is why i say “no” to MF, greens == blues == whites for me. And 1 exotic/week is not such a difference.

I think you will not find Yx times better ways to make money. Arena.net wants to make all aspects of the game to be nearly equal regarding rewards. If you will find a really good way, it will be nerfed, or other ways will be buffed. So keep in mind, when you talk about ways to make money in guild wars, you talk about small deviation from middle most of times.

Just play the game and money will grow on its own. Also it is not so boring

ezd.6359:

My english skills are too bad for explaining such things

Champ boxes? They are a part of guaranteed rewards program that makes MF even more useless

MF works only for random mobs (and 1 minimum blue item from boss of course). But numbers do the trick, i think it is better to kill 5 small mobs (i can do it solo very fast), than 1 boss (need zerg). Also, bosses stay isolated most of times. So i must decide to go with trains or farm solo (kill random mobs, gather resources etc). I think 2nd is more profitable. So i don’t follow trains. And i try to participate in farm events.

To be honest, i do it just for fun because i have my money from chests runs (i do it for empyreal fragments), chopping, mining and BLTC.

May be i am wrong, but i really don’t think MF worth efforts spent. Yes, i rise my MF, but i do it because it is free, not because i expect rain of “epics”.

MF give you more greens, may be 1 more exotic / week (+2 gold?). I mean really? It is what you want? More greens instead of whites/blue? This is why i say “no” to MF, greens == blues == whites for me. And 1 exotic/week is not such a difference.

It works on the trash around the aether champ + whatever non-box loot the champs drop (most noticeable in scarlet/labyrinth type things). Their loot tables not including the boxes seem to be quite a bit better than most trash mobs.

It’s not just more greens instead of whites/blues, it’s fewer grey, more of everything else. Yea, I’ll take that How much more you get depends on your MF and what you’re doing. It’s also permanent. So even if your mf isn’t that high and you’re not doing a lot of farming and just get more whites/blues (t5/t6 fine mats)/greens/few more rares/1 more exotic a week… that’s going to add up over time.

I agree it’s not like you get 150/300% MF and it instantly starts raining precursors… but that’s not the point of it… it’s for consistently better loot over time -> $.$

(Sorry if that doesn’t translate well)

I don’t know.

I spent an hour farming in the labyrinth last night and I still got over 50 porous bones with about 150% magic find.

Hurrakan.4259:

I don’t know.

I spent an hour farming in the labyrinth last night and I still got over 50 porous bones with about 150% magic find.

When I was doing the 50 doors stuff in there I was like wow… large/ancient bones are going to drop like a stone (since I was getting so many). Seeing that they haven’t dropped I guess I just got lucky while doing that. Rng is Rng some times.

Last year I ended up with multiple stacks of ancient and large bones – this year it is much much less of everything.

Vol you are my hero. What is your MF at?

Personally I quit salvaging stuff for luck essence after I hit around 160-170. I just don’t notice enough of a change to warrant all the cash I get from just vendoring all the greens and blues again. But like others have said, RNG is RNG and I think at the end of the day that plays a much bigger factor than MF does.

Vol.5241:

Yes. Read my sig.

How does your signature prove that Magic Find works? To me it just makes me think that some accounts are flagged with good loot drops and others aren’t. You’ve gotten more prec drops than I have exotic drops…

I used to run MF gear/buffs 300%+ and never saw a significant increase in any kind of loot (uncommon/masterwork/rare/exotic) etc…

I just think the loot system is wonky /shrug.

Couldn’t have said this better than Roquen.

I’m at 125% (base) + food + amulet (20%) + guild ~= 185%, and i haven’t noticed a real difference in drops. Maybe i drop more greens, but that’s all.

I’m too really convinced that some accounts are lucky and some are unlucky, it’s really obvious when you compare what you’ve dropped and what some other players (guildies) have dropped in one year.

I have no real idea. Sure. you can boost it to whatever. But without know what the base drop rate for items is beyond vague bafflegab like “rare chance” or “extremely rare chance” it’s meaningless. The base rate could be so minuscule that boosting it by %400 = you’re still more likely to to get hit on by the latest Playboy Bunny kinda odds.

I would say I am fairly unlucky. But even with a mere 110% MF I see an increase in rares drop. I don’t really notice blues / green but probably those as well.

Sorry guys, forgot about this thread.

Yes it’s all anecdotal but I don’t believe in the “account flagged” stuff people talk about. Doesn’t make sense at all.

MF gear works but it’s not the only thing you need to consider. MF works on kill, meaning the more mobs you kill the more chances you get at higher rolls.

Compare these three playstyles:
-shelt/pen farmer (pre-nerfs)
-dungeon runner
-WvW player

Assuming all three players wear MF gear, who will have the most rolls with MF loot? It’s obviously the first one. That’s because the KILL RATE PER HOUR is the highest out of all three.

If you kill 100 mobs in an hour, that’s 100 rolls with high MF. If you kill 20 mobs in an hour, that’s only 20. So it MF is not the only thing you need to consider.

In fact, I’d rather have low MF and lots of mobs to kill rather than high MF and very few mobs to kill.

That’s why some of you may have had less exotic drops than I have (which is the point of the screenshots). I’ve had well over 80 exotic drops from the start of the game because I’m a hardcore farmer – I make it a priority to kill as many mobs as possible.

Another important thing to note is that not all areas have the same drop rate. Remember the second southsun event with Kiel? There were a ton of exotic drops dropping, mainly with the pre-fix “Settler”. The drop rate was pretty high and this was reflected in the price of exotics, which were under 80s at that time.

Right now it seems that the best place to farm is the Lab, but I think the drop rate there has been heavily nerfed with the ton of porous bones you get.

Vol.5241:

Sorry guys, forgot about this thread.

Yes it’s all anecdotal but I don’t believe in the “account flagged” stuff people talk about. Doesn’t make sense at all.

MF gear works but it’s not the only thing you need to consider. MF works on kill, meaning the more mobs you kill the more chances you get at higher rolls.

Compare these three playstyles:
-shelt/pen farmer (pre-nerfs)
-dungeon runner
-WvW player

Assuming all three players wear MF gear, who will have the most rolls with MF loot? It’s obviously the first one. That’s because the KILL RATE PER HOUR is the highest out of all three.

If you kill 100 mobs in an hour, that’s 100 rolls with high MF. If you kill 20 mobs in an hour, that’s only 20. So it MF is not the only thing you need to consider.

In fact, I’d rather have low MF and lots of mobs to kill rather than high MF and very few mobs to kill.

That’s why some of you may have had less exotic drops than I have (which is the point of the screenshots). I’ve had well over 80 exotic drops from the start of the game because I’m a hardcore farmer – I make it a priority to kill as many mobs as possible.

Another important thing to note is that not all areas have the same drop rate. Remember the second southsun event with Kiel? There were a ton of exotic drops dropping, mainly with the pre-fix “Settler”. The drop rate was pretty high and this was reflected in the price of exotics, which were under 80s at that time.

Right now it seems that the best place to farm is the Lab, but I think the drop rate there has been heavily nerfed with the ton of porous bones you get.

But you are assuming that those who have higher MF don’t grind as much as you do. Pretty much all I find myself doing in this game is grinding. I always need gold to buy stuff that I want. Since I haven’t gotten any high selling exotic skin/prec drops, I have to grind a lot to get the things I want. When I had 300%+ MF, I was grinding, orr, mobs, dungeons, farm zones and all of that. I never saw an increase in any kind of the loot I got. The fact that you’ve gotten well over 80 exotic drops is just luck of the draw I guess…

The same goes for other people, I’m sure there are plenty with stacked MF that have spent thousands of hours grinding everything and anything. Yet they don’t see that loot drop either. Whether it’s a wonky loot system or you just happen to have pretty good luck is unknown…but many others (myself included) happen to be on the crap end of whatever the loot system is.

grinding =/= farming

If you farm long enough you’ll notice the difference and the drops.

And just cause you spend, say, 5 hours in orr doesn’t necessarily mean you are farming efficiently. Tagging the most mobs during each farming session is important too. As a guardian there are several skills at your disposable (outside of the customary staff 1)

Vol.5241:

grinding =/= farming

If you farm long enough you’ll notice the difference and the drops.

And just cause you spend, say, 5 hours in orr doesn’t necessarily mean you are farming efficiently. Tagging the most mobs during each farming session is important too. As a guardian there are several skills at your disposable (outside of the customary staff 1)

Well now you are just being facetious or something I can’t really tell. You are basically telling me that I am doing everything wrong and you everything right. All you seem to focus on is that you apparently do everything with 500% effectiveness and all others that don’t have the same “luck” as you or whatever you want to call it, are just doing it wrong.

It couldn’t be that the system itself is out of wack, right? Because the way it looks from my perspective, is that certain individuals seem to receive all of the good loot and others get pretty much none.

Doesn’t matter if they farm the most effective spots, with the most effective classes/groups for the most time, or dump thousands of gold on level 80 exotics into the MF, they won’t get a prec or any remotely good loot. Meanwhile others can dump 50g at a time and pull 1-2 precs every time, just an example. Or on the first day of the scarlet event get 2 crystal guardians in the span of 2 hours (making 300g that day). Meanwhile, here I am weeks later still farming all kinds of champs (Yes, I know how to run the appropriate trains) and what have I gotten? 2 Rockwing Spire garbage exotics (worth 98s at the time). So yes, at times I do believe accounts are flagged on creation but who knows, I will never know what goes on behind closed doors.

However, from what I understand, it appears that you are saying/hinting that it’s fine as is because you get good loot and everyone else just needs to L2P. If that’s your stance then I don’t really have much else to say.

I’ve been around 100% for a while now and it took me around 860 champion bags before I got my first Exotic. I’ve also been level 80 for a good few months and only ever had 3 Exotic drops from kills.
That being said, I was lucky enough to get ‘The Chosen’ shield (260g at the time) after I spent only 9g on rare shields from forge.

Zach.3264:

I’ve been around 100% for a while now and it took me around 860 champion bags before I got my first Exotic. I’ve also been level 80 for a good few months and only ever had 3 Exotic drops from kills.
That being said, I was lucky enough to get ‘The Chosen’ shield (260g at the time) after I spent only 9g on rare shields from forge.

Which exotic did you get? Also congrats on that, that’s a nice pull.

I’ve dumped around 300g into the MF, most of it consisted of same set level 80 exotic weapons, the rest same set rares, and the last few were just random rares out of frustration. Never got anything worthwhile, so I gave up on that. Better for me to just save up what I earn.

Roquen.5406:

It couldn’t be that the system itself is out of wack, right? Because the way it looks from my perspective, is that certain individuals seem to receive all of the good loot and others get pretty much none.

I think that what is being expressed is that your perspective isn’t indicative of a ‘system’ that is out of wack. Your perspective is biased; it’s not evidence, it’s the result of convincing yourself something is not working properly. Unless there is some subjective testing to see if MF has an impact, I see no reason anyone to believe crackpot theories about luck favouring random accounts. Drops aren’t based on ‘luck’, it’s based on fixed probability.

Obtena.7952:

Roquen.5406:

It couldn’t be that the system itself is out of wack, right? Because the way it looks from my perspective, is that certain individuals seem to receive all of the good loot and others get pretty much none.

I think that what is being expressed is that your perspective isn’t indicative of a ‘system’ that is out of wack. Your perspective is biased; it’s not evidence, it’s the result of convincing yourself something is not working properly. Unless there is some subjective testing to see if MF has an impact, I see no reason anyone to believe crackpot theories about luck favouring random accounts. Drops aren’t based on ‘luck’, it’s based on fixed probability.

When did I ever say it was evidence? His argument is that “I get a lot of drops so it’s working as intended”. As much as you say I have no proof and my perspective is biased, his is as well. Where was his testing and his proof? Other than he got what, 4-5 WORLD DROP precursors?

I ran full MF gear and out of all the farming I did with and without it. I did not personally see any change in the distribution of loot, no more greens/blues/rares/etc…All I gave was my opinion and stated that at times I do believe some accounts are flagged. You don’t have to agree with me but that doesn’t make me any less wrong or right than the other person.

The reason I sometimes think that the RNG system isn’t so RNG is that certain people consistently get all the “Valued” drops whereas others get none. For example, in the case of precursor drops, certain people will get 10-20 (A ridiculously high amount for something that is so “rare”). Meanwhile plenty of others do the same things as said individual and never get a single one. I don’t think it’s weird that some get one and others get none but I do think it’s weird that some get so many.

I guess I look at it like the lottery, yes many people play but only one person actually wins the Mega Millions (usually). No one questions the fact that one person won 200 million one time. However, if that same person won the Mega Millions jackpot 10 times, then there would definitely be suspicion and likely an investigation.

So yes to me it’s strange that certain people consistently get stuff while others get none. Note, I am referring to people of similar circumstances, not referring to things like player A farms 40 hours a week and player B logs in once a day to do the daily. Take for example two guildies that spend 100g a week on the MF, tossing in level 80 exotics. One always pulls a prec from the batch (sometimes 2) and the other has yet to receive a single precursor.

None of us know what the code actually looks like and what their intentions were, it could very well be a normal system but it could just as easily be shoddy. Once again, this is just my opinion, not fact or evidence…

Vol.5241:

Sorry guys, forgot about this thread.
… cut to save space…

Don’t add another unknown variable plz. This topic is not about “how good you are in tagging mobs”. It is about MF%. Assume one man is farming with 0% mf, then with 100% mf with same numbers of tagged mobs. Now you can remove your “i tag more mobs” factor since it is same man in both situations.

And now people say: “We don’t see significant increase in drop quality even with 300% MF”. So? Does it work? You say “yes”. Try to prove it without your “you are doing it wrong”.

I feel MF% has too little impact.

I think the points Vol makes is reasonable. The statistics on drops are related to the number of mobs you kill, their hardness, etc… you can’t deny that the game is simply the execution of a bunch of rules that are based on math.

I can appreciate the inquiry in MF; I had the same questions myself. I don’t think it’s anyone’s ‘job’ to prove MF works or doesn’t work, or doesn’t work the way people think it should. You convince yourself based on whatever and if you do, you act accordingly. Vol has presented some of his efforts. Take it for what it’s worth. That’s all anyone can do.

I don’t see merit in theories that claim some accounts are favoured for luck just because some people get better drops than others. Sounds like how people persecuted witches in the 17th century.

ezd.6359:

Vol.5241:

Sorry guys, forgot about this thread.
… cut to save space…

Don’t add another unknown variable plz. This topic is not about “how good you are in tagging mobs”. It is about MF%. Assume one man is farming with 0% mf, then with 100% mf with same numbers of tagged mobs. Now you can remove your “i tag more mobs” factor since it is same man in both situations.

And now people say: “We don’t see significant increase in drop quality even with 300% MF”. So? Does it work? You say “yes”. Try to prove it without your “you are doing it wrong”.

I feel MF% has too little impact.

It’s not an unknown variable, it absolutely is involved in MF.

You could have two people have different experiences with MF. One person may have a ton of drops while another person may have few. That alone doesn’t give enough information since we would have to know the sample size, which is directly related to the # of mobs you tag/kill.

Couldn’t the SLAYER Achievement numbers shed some light on who is killing the most here? I know the MF numbers have changed over that period of time, but someone with 20 times more kills than another should certainly have more exotic drops…..

The truth is simpler: Vol.5241 sacrificed a kitten to the RNG. My wife, bless her, had the RNG fall in love with her when she made her account. Jokes aside, they are outliers, as I understand it.

It’s all RNG. Depending on what ArenaNet uses to create the seed, it may very well be the time of day, or Jupiter’s proximity to Earth that determines your individual luck from drops.

Vol.5241:

ezd.6359:

Vol.5241:

Sorry guys, forgot about this thread.
… cut to save space…

Don’t add another unknown variable plz. This topic is not about “how good you are in tagging mobs”. It is about MF%. Assume one man is farming with 0% mf, then with 100% mf with same numbers of tagged mobs. Now you can remove your “i tag more mobs” factor since it is same man in both situations.

And now people say: “We don’t see significant increase in drop quality even with 300% MF”. So? Does it work? You say “yes”. Try to prove it without your “you are doing it wrong”.

I feel MF% has too little impact.

It’s not an unknown variable, it absolutely is involved in MF.

You could have two people have different experiences with MF. One person may have a ton of drops while another person may have few. That alone doesn’t give enough information since we would have to know the sample size, which is directly related to the # of mobs you tag/kill.

Since i do not compare my drop from unknown amount of mobs with your drop from unknown amount of mobs, i will not talk about “you are doing it wrong”.

That was not a good idea to say “may be +1 exotic / week”. Please, forget it. In numbers it is related to number of mobs you tag/kill, yes. But when we talk about % – it does not matter how much mobs we kill. Tell me how good your drop with 0% compared to your drop with 100%/200%/300%. How much money you have from it (0:100%, 0:200%, 0:300%)?

How i value items and drop before and after MF introduction.

All about 80 lvl, prices for ~= 80 lvl items.

Before
1) Bags – rnd*rnd – i don’t know
2) Junk – junk
3) White items – junk (direct sell to vendor = more money than salvaging, salvage metal/wood items) ~= 50c
4) Blue (direct sell to vendor) – 1s
5) Green (direct sell to vendor) – 1.5s
6) Rare – 25s
7) Exotic – 1.5g (bltc, rarely more if runes worth something) – best in slot in most situations, worth something
+ we can have +MF from items.

After
1) Bags – rnd*rnd – i don’t know
2) Junk – junk
3) White items – junk (direct sell to vendor = more money than salvaging, salvage metal/wood items) ~= 50c
4) Blue (we salvage it for luck, no money or ~resource price, leather/cloth = 15c) ~= 30c
5) Green (we salvage it for luck, no money or ~resource price, leather/cloth = 15c) ~= 30c
6) Rare – 25s
7) Exotic – 1.5g (bltc, rarely more if runes worth something)
– we can not raise MF from items

See whole idea? We lose money on blue and green items. 70c on blue, 1.2s on green. Let’s say we have same amount blues and greens (70c+120c)/2=95c.

How many extra yellows, exotics we need to cover expenses?
We need 2500c/95c=~26 – we need +1 extra yellow for every 26 blue/green item.
Or 15000c/95c=~158 – we need +1 extra exotic for every 158 blue/green item.

I do not see so many rare/exotic drops with 210% MF.
Total luck required 1633270 (http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Luck)
Let’s say we have 30 luck for every salvaged blue/green.
1633270/30=~54442.3 items
54442.3*95c=517g, 20s, 18c wasted if we will not receive money back

How much time it will take to get 517g back with current drops? OK. You will drop +1 extra exotic/day. It is just a year to get your money back!

Now imagine, not all people have such amount of MF%, it will take several years for them to raise it. And then several years to get money back.

But to be honest, i did not see so much increase in quality drop even with 373% MF( http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/2596/1tbl.jpg )

100% (easy obtainable level) is same as nothing. At this moment MF% does not cover expenses, especially on higher ranks. It is waste of money, time, efforts.

As i said somewhere MF% is just another carrot / ruler for people who like to compare sizes.

Am i wrong? Where?

I have 153 + 7 + 30 = 190% MF when I run dungeons (luck/achs/omnom.) Yesterday I ran three ACs with a friend at 50%MF and just compared drops from the trash at spider. Both times he had double the dust I had and I had double the junk he had. I understand this is a VERY small sample, but I think it’s worth conducting some more tests. Has my chance of getting good stuff gone down due to my MF?

What I’ll need is a situation where we can both tag every mob, and we can compare the amount of junk and better items with the same amount of trials on a large scale. I’m thinking borderland centaurs since we have to make sure we both hit and get credit for each one (so no 1 hit trash.)

ezd.6359:

See whole idea? We lose money on blue and green items. 70c on blue, 1.2s on green.

Am i wrong? Where?

At the point where someones ROI for converting Greens/Blues into MF pays off due to increased loot drops. I think if you aren’t regarding this as an investment, you simply don’t get how it will benefit you IN THE LONG TERM. I think what you haven’t taken account of is the amortization of your Green/Blue to MF conversion … There is obviously a number of mobs that needs to be killed to get your investment back and after than, it’s pure benefit.The question is:

1. Can you quantify that?
2. If you can, what is the amortization?

I think the answer to #1 is yes. Don’t take this as an accusation but when people say they don’t notice loot differences with 200%+ MF, they just aren’t using the same baseline for when they don’t have 200%+ MF. There is a noticeable difference when you are talking factors here.

I won’t pretend to try to answer #2, simply because I don’t know how MF affects the various rates for the different QL level of drops … it’s folly to attempt to do so. It does depend on the content you are doing and how many kills you make in a day.

Obtena.7952:

ezd.6359:

Am i wrong? Where?

At the point where someones ROI for converting Greens/Blues into MF pays off due to increased loot drops.

I think what you haven’t taken account of is the amortization of your Green/Blue MF conversion … There is obviously a number of mobs that needs to be killed to get your investment back and after than, it’s pure benefit.

Show me your numbers. Where is your pure benefit? How much money you made compared to 0% MF?

More than I will NOT make having 0% MF once i reach the amortization of my investment.

What you are asking for is something no one but Anet can provide you. No player can control the environment well enough to determine the parameters needed to determine the number of kills to reach the Loot/MF conversion amortization. Furthermore, Luck to MF isn’t even a linear scale. What a clever bunch of Devs Anet has.

I don’t believe you need any technical assessment to know MF does work … anyone that got the Southsun buff vs. NOT got it during the Southsun events can attest to that. What I find rather disturbing about this thread is that people would rather believe some far out idea that implies Anet goes out of their way to screw people over than actually have faith that Anet has a LOGICAL approach to making sure that MF is applied equally to everyone and whatever it is, it works.

Frankly, I will admit that at some point, I will stop my conversion of loot to MF. There will be a point for a given player where more conversion will not benefit them. Ultimately it comes down to the ratio of gear you convert for MF to the gear you sell. I can’t guess you a number there but if you farm ALOT (like I do in Orr), you have a pretty good feeling for the amount of loot you get in a single run through and how much MF you get by converting it. Once your MF rate of increase is not ‘sustainable’, it’s time for you to stop conversion. On the other hand, MF is so easy to attain in the lower range, it’s ridiculous to consider not doing it. That might seem all a bit handwavy but unless Anet releases some drop rates, etc… that’s what we have to work with.

Bottom line is this: If your a conspiracy theory kind of guy, you still don’t have a reason to not increase your MF, even in the lowest ranges by using loot to luck conversion. It’s up to you to decide to stop when you feel like you are losing money because of it.

If you’re losing $ salvaging you’re doing it wrong… or trying to increase it very quickly which is fine if that cost is acceptable to you.

Obtena.7952:

More than I will NOT make having 0% MF once i reach the amortization of my investment.

How do you know where is this point?

Obtena.7952:

What you are asking for is something no one but Anet can provide you. No player can control the environment well enough to determine the parameters needed to determine the number of kills to reach the Loot/MF conversion amortization. Furthermore, Luck to MF isn’t even a linear scale. What a clever bunch of Devs Anet has.

No. I want to see your numbers. This moment you imagine somethinkg bright in your future. Something between now —-- end of time. I do believe it will be profitable some day, but i want to know when.

Obtena.7952:

I don’t believe you need any technical assessment to know MF does work … anyone that got the Southsun buff vs. NOT got it during the Southsun events can attest to that.

I had better drops without that buf.

Obtena.7952:

What I find rather disturbing about this thread is that people would rather believe some far out idea that implies Anet goes out of their way to screw people over than actually have faith that Anet has a LOGICAL approach to making sure that MF is applied equally to everyone and whatever it is, it works.

No. Just people make mistakes sometimes. I think MF is really increases your drop quality, but what the cost? If you need to spend 1000$ today, to have +1$ after 100 years, i will not do it.

Obtena.7952:

Frankly, I will admit that at some point, I will stop my conversion of loot to MF. There will be a point for a given player where more conversion will not benefit them. Ultimately it comes down to the ratio of gear you convert for MF to the gear you sell. I can’t guess you a number there but if you farm ALOT (like I do in Orr), you have a pretty good feeling for the amount of loot you get in a single run through and how much MF you get by converting it. Once your MF rate of increase is not ‘sustainable’, it’s time for you to stop conversion. On the other hand, MF is so easy to attain in the lower range, it’s ridiculous to consider not doing it. That might seem all a bit handwavy but unless Anet releases some drop rates, etc… that’s what we have to work with.

Where is this point?

Obtena.7952:

Bottom line is this: If your a conspiracy theory kind of guy, you still don’t have a reason to not increase your MF, even in the lowest ranges by using loot to luck conversion. It’s up to you to decide to stop when you feel like you are losing money because of it.

How do you know? “feel”? Really?

At current state of economy you need +1 rare per 26 blue/green items. Simple math, look above.

You need almost 2x time you spent to raise MF to this point before you start to make profit. I can draw a picture for you.

Look at the image. Of course, in real game it is not linear.

My point is pretty simple, you must find point B where items you salvaged (lost money) are covered by additional drop.

Of course you can stop somewhere between A and B. But it means you have additional +1 rare even more rare, may be 1 for 100 or 150 items. Since it is just 25 silver, i don’t think it is worth my time.

As i mentioned before – i don’t see this point B in near future, since i don’t see significant increase even with 300%.

Aberrant.6749:

If you’re losing $ salvaging you’re doing it wrong… or trying to increase it very quickly which is fine if that cost is acceptable to you.

I increase my MF for free it is only reason why i do it. But this topic is not about cheapest method to increase your MF%.

@ ezd.6359

It being free/profitable to gain MF is one of the things that makes MF worth it to me.

Yea there is some time/opportunity cost, but tbh it’s not bad at all.

The OP seemed worried about it messing with his ability to get dusk… which it shouldn’t.

If it’s costing some one much of anything, then they might want to go and get some salvaging spreadsheets and use those until they have an idea as far as what/how to properly salvage (they are available free on the net).

ezd.6359:

Obtena.7952:

More than I will NOT make having 0% MF once i reach the amortization of my investment.

How do you know where is this point?

You don’t, but it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Because my assessment is purely ‘empirical’, I’m going to stop my higher value blue green conversion once I get around 80-90% MF. Why? because that’s near a level that I notice a difference (did some testing with the Birthday MF consumable that gave 24h or 100% MF). That’s good enough for me. Anything that isn’t level 80 blue/green will continue to be salvaged for luck until I can’t be bothered anymore.

ezd.6359:

As i mentioned before – i don’t see this point B in near future, since i don’t see significant increase even with 300%.

That just get’s back to what Vol said. Maybe you take this as insulting but there is a ‘wrong’ way to get your MF and it’s fair to discuss it because it really does make your MF evident if you do it right.

For instance, are you killing AS MANY mobs as you can when you get MF buffs? You should be. Are you running dungeons when you get MF buffs? I can guarantee dungeons is the worst place for MF to be evident because you hardly kill anything (and MF affect on chests/bags, is very questionable).

Are you converting your level 80 blue/greens? That’s the MOST costly way to get MF conversion ROI. Why not get lower level mats camping chests and convert with a low QL salvage thing? … make your own from mats you have laying around …. I mean, if anything, MF is so easy to get and you can get it from just playing the game … heck, your daily gives you some.

I just find it really hard to argue there is something out of wack with the system because of things like the ‘cost’ to convert blue/greens when can be made an almost no-cost activity. I don’t think an objective assessment would lead you to the conclusion that you don’t see the effect of 300% MF.

Obtena.7952:

ezd.6359:

As i mentioned before – i don’t see this point B in near future, since i don’t see significant increase even with 300%.

That just get’s back to what Vol said. Maybe you take this as insulting but there is a ‘wrong’ way to get your MF and it’s fair to discuss it because it really does make your MF evident if you do it right.

I don’t think he is trying to insult. In two words he wants to say (if i understand him right): “farm more”. But more farm = more blues and greens. While i want to see more valuable drop. I don’t want +10 greens in my bag, while i can get 20 silver from 1 rich platinum node.

Obtena.7952:

For instance, are you killing AS MANY mobs as you can when you get MF buffs? You should be. Are you running dungeons when you get MF buffs? I can guarantee dungeons is the worst place for MF to be evident because you hardly kill anything (and MF affect on chests/bags, is very questionable).

I try to play farm events and i do my daily chests runs (for empyreal framgments). While i have 210%MF (including buffs), i see more rares / exotics from chests, than from drop. I don’t see the point spend time on farm events (i can tag many mobs, trust me), while i can get more money in different place, especially when i must pay to raise MF%.

Obtena.7952:

Are you converting your level 80 blue/greens? That’s the MOST costly way to get MF conversion ROI. Why not get lower level mats camping chests and convert with a low QL salvage thing? … make your own from mats you have laying around …. I mean, if anything, MF is so easy to get and you can get it from just playing the game … heck, your daily gives you some.

If you will not convert every blue/green item, it will take even more time. I don’t think OP wants to ask “should i raise my MF if is it free?” – the answer will be obvious – yes.

I think he wants to ask two things:
1) Is it working at all?
2) How good its effect is. (how much he can sacrifice and when to stop)

I try to answer these two questions: It works, but it has from zero to too little impact.

Obtena.7952:

I just find it really hard to argue there is something out of wack with the system because of things like the ‘cost’ to convert blue/greens when can be made an almost no-cost activity. I don’t think an objective assessment would lead you to the conclusion that you don’t see the effect of 300% MF.

They said they want to find a place for blues/greens, because people just sell everything to npc. IMHO nothing has been changed, they just added a new ruler. It is still more profitable to sell most of your items (assuming you are lvl 80, and you drop 80 lvl items most of times). All depends on crafting materials price.

From personal experience, not that I have taken the time to log my every move. I have notice a higher chance of exotics/rares while playing as my MF% increase (current luck is at 148%), in certain fractals, dungeons or events I will throw up the MF booster and food which pushes me past 200.

I’ve notice tat most of my exotics are drops from just trash mobs, and rarely do I get one from a chest or box (Vol’s point I believe).

I think two very important points are being made here, one by Vol and one by Obtena/ezd.

1) Magic Find gives you better odds at getting a rare every time the game “rolls a die” for your loot, meaning that getting lots of rares and exotics is not solely a matter of how high your MF, but also how many mobs/champs you kill

That’s why Vol says “better kill 100 mobs in one hour with low MF, than kill only 20 with high MF”. It makes statistical sense, particularly as we are talking of low probabilities.

Taking crude figures: if your base hypothetical chance of getting a rare is 1% and you kill 100 mobs in a day, you get 100 imaginary “roll of die”. 99% of which will give blues and greens. 1 of them will give you a rare. If your MF is 100%, your chance climbed to 2%, so you would get possibly 2 rares. If during that same day you had killed 300 mobs, you would get either 3 rares (with basic MF) or 6 rares (with 100% MF).

What would you rather do? Kill 300 mobs with 0% MF (netting you 3 rares) or Kill 100 mobs with 100% MF (netting you 2 rares)? Depending on your play-style and time available the answer might vary.

The above is obviously made with crude figures but the logic is important: more kills = more chances at rare/exotics ; and much more kills with low MF might be more profitable than few kills with high MF.

2) Very quickly you will hit decreasing returns on investment when salvaging loot for luck

As ezd explains: at some point the oh so small gain of luck that you will gain from salvaging that green will not likely bring you back the value you lost by not vendoring it.

It is hard to calculate that value very precisely, but at some point you are better off selling your greens to a vendor rather than salvaging them. Why? Because GW3 will be out before the increase of luck you just got will give you back the 1 silver and x coppers you just lost.

In view of the steep increase in luck-cost once you get around 150% MF it seems definitely recommended to stop salvaging then at the latest and start selling. I would not be surprised if it happened much earlier though. If you want to be conservative and prioritize guaranteed today’s gains against tomorrow’s hypothetical gains you might want to stop MUCH earlier.

I will probably stop at 100% MF. It sounds like a “doubling” of chances to get good stuff (though who knows for sure what the exact formula looks like) and getting there is not too hard so even if I made losses in the grand scheme of things, they will be small compared to other things (e.g. Mystic Forge gambling).

Zel

Hmm… Thanks for pointing that out, Zelu. As a “Vanquisher”-type player who typically likes to slaughter every single red name I see when I go out into a map, I probably get more mileage out of MF than the average player. However, in the past I used to merch all blues/greens I got too, and I’ve been sorely missing that guaranteed income.

Sounds like I can stop salvaging when I get to 150 MF, as that seems to be the sweet spot where guild buffs/boosters/food can get you to 200 for farming.