Guild Wars 2

Preface: this has nothing to do with DR

I feel like Karma in its current state has turned into a niche currency for a niche set of products; not useful for everyone, and definitely not the ‘reward for heroic deeds’ it was set out to be. Here are my opinions why. I also encourage others to dispute my points if need be.

- Not everyone is a chef
- Not everyone wants a legendary weapon, or armor of the six gods.
- Once you hit level 80, lower level karma equipment will have close to no use.

I think the services of master craftsmen should be split across the world to various Karma merchants. What happens is that you create a dichotomy where coin and karma can allow a player to obtain the same goods, but in varying levels of convenience.

Cost vs Convenience.

Coin allows players to purchase all their crafting needs conveniently next to their craft stations.

Karma should allow the same items to be purchased, however, these goods are split up across Tyria. e.g. A renown heart quest involving miners should allow players to obtain lumps of coal for karma from the NPC. This works very well in conjunction with the waypoint travel system. It will benefit players that are in the area, and players that constantly use the waypoints won’t save much money.

This system can be further enhanced by perhaps adding a limit for each player on the amount of items they can purchase at a karma merchant. e.g. 2 master salvage kits every 24 hrs. Karma merchants dwelling closer to major cities can sell the same item for higher karma to balance out the waypoint costs.

I think Arenanet has this in effect to some extent, with the gathering tools being spread out amongst different karma merchants, but I feel as though it doesn’t benefit a great deal of players.

That’s not a bad idea at all!

Minor nitpick: There is exactly one craftable aquabreather. But it’s so low level (20? Recipe is from Diessa Plateau) as to not really matter. And the Recipe does of course cost Karma.

On the topic at hand, I believe the biggest disconnect is in what Karma represents and how it is used. Going by the name and Heart vendors alone you’d think it’s an abstraction of renown, favour and good deeds being repaid. This trend is continued with Cultural Weapons if you want to see them as national treasures one must be worthy of…

…but this image is ruined when you consider Cultural Armours which sell for gold and thus don’t parallel the weapons. Or if you look at the boatload of vendors all over offering peppers and ginger for Karma. Right now it feels as if a greater concept for Karma was abandoned in favour of it being just a currency you can’t get via smart trading on the TP but only through actual gameplay. And even there only in limited quantities (no Karma for dungeons or map completions; diminishing returns). Basically Karma has no factual meaning, only an end; to be a currency the Devs can control.

Which is kinda lame.

While I agree with you that there are some pretty nice things available for karma. There are zero real karma sinks outside of the 80 exotic Orr gear and Legendary shards.

What I personally would like to see are some karma sinks that are more fluffy and fun. You spoke of environmental weapon bundles, these are fun and on the right track. Yet, just like dungeon tokens, karma needs more.

There are 3 systems in the game that are so completely underused that we could stand to see karma (and/or dungeon tokens) be used to enhance.

1) Miniatures -
Why do we not have some special mini-pets available from karma in areas? Mini-pets being available only in the gem shop is a huge disappointment to me. These pets should be available as rare drops, through karma (themed with the area) and dungeon tokens.

2) Town Clothing -
We have a total of 3 available outfits for town clothing. Why can we not see more made available via karma? Either by recipes for soulbound gear that you can make yourself, or the actual clothing itself? The town clothing system is a good one, a lot of us would love to have better and more themed clothing, making them available through large amounts of karma gives us another reason to gain karma.

3) Backpacks/Capes -
There are a total of what? 5 back pieces in the game. Karma (and dungeon tokens) is a definite place to sell themed backpieces with decent stats for HIGH prices.

niwaar.5631:

2) Town Clothing -
We have a total of 3 available outfits for town clothing. Why can we not see more made available via karma? Either by recipes for soulbound gear that you can make yourself, or the actual clothing itself? The town clothing system is a good one, a lot of us would love to have better and more themed clothing, making them available through large amounts of karma gives us another reason to gain karma.

Town clothing available as karma rewards is a great idea. I hope they add that in. There aren’t nearly enough choices of available town clothes.

There other nice things you can do with the karma that does count as a sink. Last week I was able to mix karma gear with drops and made an exotic (zhed’s coat) in the mystic forge. I was able to sell it in the TP for just over 8 gold. Tiering up gear in the mf is not guaranteed with every use.

I can see not wanting to replace intended coin sinks with karma. That strieks me as totally fair.

What about non-coin sinks?

Two parts: After I’ve helped a tribe of quaggan by slaughtering krait, I continue to slaughter krait, but they don’t like me any more for this. Treat hearts like leveling to 80; once you hit the cap (complete the heart), repeat a certain level of that feat for a token bonus—the terms for completing the heart the second time can be modified, but it allows the quaggan to show me they appreciate me more. More importantly, it ties into…

Secondly, those quaggan have no doubt killed a few krait of their own and have some goodies to sell. Maybe they have scales—the reason I slaughter krait—or maybe they just have the bags of random crafting materials krait drop, or maybe they have a more specialized sack of random stuff. Just like you need coin sinks, you need karma sinks too.

Mini-pets and town clothing for karma would be great! Personally I am wondering if there won’t be some major town clothes expansion at some point – either through an actual expansion or a patch or something. The entire town clothes system is just a neat idea that hasn’t happened yet.

Currently karma serves more as a sort of “round out your equipment” equalizer while you’re leveling in PvE. If nothing good drops, you can usually buy something useful from a heart vendor. At the same time this system is somewhat flawed because you have no way to know what you can get from any particular vendor. And even if you find something cool, you’d have to write the location down to know later. And then when you’re done with the item it’s rather anticlimactic to just have to destroy it.

More use for karma other than things that cost a zillion points would be nice! Using it for more unique crafting is a step in the right direction, too.

If you use karma to buy your salvage kits, you can make a higher coin profit off of the items that you salvage if they have accessories.

If I wasn’t working towards a legendary I would have zero use for karma, there definitely needs to be something else to do with it

LinseyMurdock.4165:

Having strong coin sinks in the game is very important to the overall health of the economy. This is a great reason why we don’t make everything available for both coin and karma, particularly when it comes to crafting materials.

Here are some ways that I disagree with you on karma not being useful:

• There are stat combos that are only available for karma.
• There are many armor and weapon skins that are only available for karma. Some pretty sweet ones too.
• Rare and Exotic recipes for all crafting disciplines that aren’t Chef, require karma to learn.
• There are many fun and interesting bundles (environmental weapons) that are only available for karma.
• Stated aqua breathers are currently only available for karma (though I could see this potentially changing in the future).

Sure Karma rewards could be expanded, and I am sure they will be as the game grows, but they aren’t useless for anyone who is 80, doesn’t want a legendary, or isn’t a chef. Just remember, the game maybe be officially released, but it is NOT done growing. We are continuously adding, fixing, and improving!

Thanks for the feedback!

I appreciate your reply Linsey (thats twice in two days!). I realized I omitted an important argument in my OP (my previous iteration was too long so I cut it down).

The problems I see with the reasons you provided in the uses of Karma is that; Karma is an infinite resource, just like coin, but there isn’t an infinite demand for it. I believe I discussed why having more uses for Karma won’t necessarily damage the ‘coin sink’ nature of coin, if Karma merchants are spread out throughout the map, since waypoints do a fine job as coin sinks already. But to reiterate; you can be giving players the option to buy something inconveniently with Karma, by having them travel far and wide to the relevant vendor, or conveniently with coin, by having all items sold by a merchant in the safety of a city.

The thing with coin is, we use it just as quickly as we make it. With Karma, we make it quite quickly and the amount of uses for someone who isn’t a chef, or a legendary seeker is very low.
- Stat combo armor: You’re likely only going to buy this once, even if its expensive
- Getting weapons for their skins: You’re not likely going to use this much at all once you hit level 80. Fine transmutation stones aren’t exactly cheap. But thats beside the point; even if you have lots of fine transmutation stones to use, you won’t be using karma for this on a constant basis.
- Recipes: Just like armor, you’re likely only going to buy these once.

- Fun bundles: This is a really good use of Karma. Its a consumable that you can ‘sink’ your Karma in. The problem I see is that not everyone will find this useful as it does not actually contribute to progression, but this is a subjective point.

-Aquabreathers: Well, I could reiterate that this is just another piece of armor, and the likelihood of anyone buying more than 1 level 80 aquabreather is extremely low (unless they use it for mystic forge lottery) but lets not forget this is…underwater combat, we are talking about.

I just feel that, for a currency of infinite supply, there needs to be products of infinite demand. This is available in all other currencies of the game. Coin is self explanatory, glory has chests, Gems have boosters, Skill points has Miyani; even Influence has banners to dump points in endlessly.

I am not saying the Karma system is underdeveloped, I just feel as though its uses are very niche. If we look at Karma as a system just for chefs, than it has already reached a point I believe is great! Different ingredients spread out through the world. Now if only other craftsmen can benefit in the same way.

Karma is basically a leveling currency as presently constructed. You can still find Orichalcum Sickles and Axes (but not picks) and a few salvage kits for karma, though at this point I’d question how long they’ll last. Beyond a few prestige skins for modest karma costs there’s little to spend it on end-game.

Currently the best use of karma is buying those sickles and axes (4 silver value) for 350 karma, an effective rate of 89 karma per silver. I suspect that if karma and gold were interchangable, the fair market value would be closer to 1000 karma per silver, and rapidly increasing.

Like Mystic Coins, there’s a decent concept here, but the market for it was not well constructed and it’s performing poorly as a result.

I tend to find Buttermilk is a good use of karma ^_~

The big problem I have with Karma is that it’s WAY too spread out. Each NPC in the world only sells a very set selection of goods. If I want a Beetletun coat, not only do I need the karma for it, but I have to take that character to Beetletun, AND I have to clear the renown heart for the town, and only then can I buy the jacket. With gold, pretty much everything that can be bought with gold is on the Trading Post. I can call it up using any of my characters, anywhere in the world. I can lock in my purchase with that character, and even if there isn’t one of the dozens of trading post reps nearby, I could even claim it with an alt and put it in the bank for retrieval. It’s just so so so so much more convenient.

There needs to be a way for Karma to be more convenient. At the very least there should be a way to shop remotely for Karma items from NPCs you’ve already unlocked, and Karma rewards should be Accountbound rather than Soulbound, so that you can claim them with an alt and sent them to a different alt. Ideally you could also sell and buy Karma items on the Trading Post, for Karma only (no transfer between Karma and Gold).

It wouldn’t be so bad if Waypoint travel were less expensive, then you could hop from point to point to get the stuff you need, but at current prices it’s just not worth it.

@ Ohoni.

I think the lack of convenience is the idea, because technically karma is ‘free’. What you are suggesting will make Karma even more similar to coin, which in turn just makes it a redundant and confusing system.

Karma right now, has identity as a ‘local hero’s reward’ but the problem is it doesnt benefit everyone once they hit level 80.

Being able to buy useful tools with karma was nice, but since it’s nerfed karma became useless to me. Now I’ll prefer get more coin or experience over some meaningless pinky numbers.

Legendary…. Yeah, there’s such thing. But I’m playing a Necro and there’s no good looking legendary for him. Summoning minions from hell with some rainbow rod is very silly indeed.

God Armor. There’s only 2 sets of god armor with unique stats that can’t be crafted, I believe, and I already have one of those.

I have 400 chief level, but buying food from TP is cheaper anyway.

Armor and weapons. Buying those from karma vendors is such a pain… It’s much more easier just buy best armor every 10 levels from TP, and it’s cheap too.

LinseyMurdock.4165:

There are many armor and weapon skins that are only available for karma. Some pretty sweet ones too.

Not if you wear medium armor. Boy do most of the medium armor in this game stink. So far all my karma is accumulating because there isn’t any decent looking medium armor to purchase.

It won’t matter much even if the armor looked good, its still a finite demand.

So is everyone happy with the lack of the Orihalcum pick? <_<