Guild Wars 2

So, been playing GW2 for about a month now. Never played the previous GW but had dabbled in quite a few MMO’s during these previous years. In some MMO’s I have played, crafting was a way someone could actually make some coin if they put in the time to get the level high enough.

I have started looking into that for GW2 and noticed a fairly common trend across the board. If you look at the proposed price for the “pre-ordered” items in the BLTC, one will find that the majority of items (willing to say more then 96% of them) are being requested a price points LOWER then it takes to even craft them. I am not talking about a few copper, but sometimes quite a noticeable difference based on what it costs to craft the items. People’s Sell prices I feel are fair on many things, but you do have to wait for that and who knows how long.

Now, I don’t want to come off as a whiner who is not getting his way about being rich from crafting. I do want to point out the choke hold that players may be putting on the economy when it comes to supply and demand. When I look at the crafting and I see 500+ ordered on an item I can make, I should find solace in that. There is a demand for something I can provide… but guess what you 500+ people, I’m not going to make something that costs me 54 silver to make when you are offering 49.

“But Sudden, people can gather items and make stuff, that costs you nothing!” In some cases this is true, but in many cases this statement holds no water. Let’s take a 20 slot bag of some type. From what I have seen this requires atleast 10 Superior Runes of Holding (NPC only item I believe) and those alone cost the crafter 10 Gold by themselves; this is not factoring in ANY other crafting material needed. Guess what? People only offering (at the highest point right now) 9 Gold 13 Silver to Buy now. Do I need to describe the lunacy in this any further? No one is going to craft that to make for a quick Sell… Ever! I could just post it for 12 Gold and make money, but that is not the point of this post.

At the end of this, lengthier than intended, rant it comes down to this. If players want more desirable crafted pieces in the game, then give crafters an incentive to even make the items. The least people can do is offer a buy now price that warrants a crafter to even consider the quick gold option versus the higher Sell price; because as it stands right now these low ball price tactics of players on items is pointless and practically throwing away a chance of ever getting items, that can only be crafted, at a deal price. Those players are hurting themselves and isolating crafting professions to being “Get my Legendary” driven instead of having fun and making a little coin with the craft.

Problem is that people don’t want to take the time to do the math and figure out how much it cost them to make something. Too bad there isn’t a calculator that uses current pricing in mats calculating where you can just click on the mats, it will bring up a pic of mat/fill in current mat pricing add up everything.

You could even tie it to known crafting recipes for how much it would cost to craft things at current trading post prices to see if it would be even worth it.

NO! Lower your sell price!!

This is a valid point. Perhaps if the items NPC value was more in line with the actual value of, at the very least, the NPC items needed to craft. Example, if one has to have at least 5 Gold in NPC / non farm-able items to craft something, then the item being crafted should reflect a NPC value similar to 5 Gold instead of, for example, 2 silver. If someone sees something that the NPC value is only 2 silver, and they are unaware of the true cost to even make the piece, then it is not 100% surprising that a sub par price for Buy Now is offered.

This would obviously be a change that a developer would have to put into place, but I think it would be a warranted change. It would be a change that would silently educate that a new player on what to prepare for when it comes to the economy of GW2. As it stands right now, the NPC value of some items is very misleading to the actual value it takes to create.

Highvoltage.7946:

NO! Lower your sell price!!

This is something I find myself doing sometimes also. But the point of this thread is not the Sell price, as I feel many craft things are fairly priced (that I have run across at least). The point is that if players want to dictate a lower price for an item and even make a crafter consider the lower price, at least dictate a price that is a break even point for the cost of the crafting. Suggesting a price that is lower then it takes to craft something (and impossible to change due to cost of a NPC item) is fruitless for both sides.

You also have to take into account that prices of the materials fluctuate.

EnemyCrusher.7324:

You also have to take into account that prices of the materials fluctuate.

That’s what I said in my post before. I see that http://www.guildwarstrade.com has something like I proposed in my previous post, but haven’t really looked into how accurate it is on buy/sell pricing. on crafting an item.

I might have to give it a shot and see if it is accurate this evening.

EnemyCrusher.7324:

You also have to take into account that prices of the materials fluctuate.

Agreed, but that’s also why I put a focus on the minimum costs of NPC items. These material prices never fluctuate.

The market dictates gather / farmable items. The market has no control of NPC only items though.

99.9% of the people who need to know what you write in the OP is most likely not reading anything on the forums at all. either they dont know, dont care or feel like there is no need to be on the forums.

Black Wolf.7348:

99.9% of the people who need to know what you write in the OP is most likely not reading anything on the forums at all. either they dont know, dont care or feel like there is no need to be on the forums.

Also a valid point that is not blind to myself either. That being said, there are some who obviously do read the forums, as the amount of threads does prove that. If a group of people who do read the forum are educated on why no one is selling them them with there proposed prices, then they realize a fault and adjust price. If they change the price they offer to a higher point, then those players who don’t read the forum but browse BLTC will notice and have to adjust there low ball price. Hopefully realization of enough people can create a new dictation on what a minimum buy price should reflect, and again the NPC items are the only real constant with that dictation.

I think the phenomenon described in the OP is expected. The materials used to craft the item you’re selling are more versatile than the item you crafted, which means that the net value of those materials is more than the result of it. Furthermore, the materials can then be used for crafting by someone else, which earns them experience/progress. Selling the end result of the craft does not offer that, and so is less valued.

All buyers want a bargain.
All sellers want a profit.

Clash of 2 worlds.

It’s a noble cause Sudden, but I don’t expect anyone to heed what you say simply because buyers will always want to save some gold. Don’t forget also, the market is an anonymous brokerage with no empathy between the buyer and seller. There is no hope of communicating, nor any way to reach a negotiated deal, other than take the price or leave it.

florence.1674:

All buyers want a bargain.
All sellers want a profit.

Clash of 2 worlds.

It’s a noble cause Sudden, but I don’t expect anyone to heed what you say simply because buyers will always want to save some gold. Don’t forget also, the market is an anonymous brokerage with no empathy between the buyer and seller. There is no hope of communicating, nor any way to reach a negotiated deal, other than take the price or leave it.

True True. I definitely don’t expect a single forum post to change the 100% outlook on something, but its always an attempt at a little change.

Sudden.8729:

If players want more desirable crafted pieces in the game, then give crafters an incentive to even make the items.

Why? No need to buy them from anyone else for a lot of money, if you can buy things of the same quality in the TP cheaper.

If you’re looking for economy – there it is: drops are as well in terms of qualitiy and drop “for free”, however with less probability. But the probability is balanced by player number.

Do you know why there are so few charcoalers nowadays? And so few wagoners? Or litter-carriers? Crafters in GW2 have the same problem: economy doesn’t need them.

Buy orders on crafted goods get filled all the time. Why raise the bid?

Talyjta.9081:

Sudden.8729:

If players want more desirable crafted pieces in the game, then give crafters an incentive to even make the items.

Why? No need to buy them from anyone else for a lot of money, if you can buy things of the same quality in the TP cheaper.

If you’re looking for economy – there it is: drops are as well in terms of qualitiy and drop “for free”, however with less probability. But the probability is balanced by player number.

Do you know why there are so few charcoalers nowadays? And so few wagoners? Or litter-carriers? Crafters in GW2 have the same problem: economy doesn’t need them.

The OP is referenced to things that don’t drop in game. If the item does not drop from a mob, then there would be none in the TP unless crafted. An example would be 20 slotted bags; if I wanted to make these and try to fire sale them then the most optimal method for this would be a buy now price that atleast covers the cost of crafting the item. Sure, I could sell them at the posted price, but again that is not the point of this thread. This thread focuses on the buy now pricing. The way things currently look, people marking the buy now price below the crafting cost means two different things:
1. You, as a buyer, will likely not get the item at that cost, forcing you to pay the Seller’s proposed price (this is assuming the buyer is not in the position to craft the item in a timely manner.)
2. The sellers have all the power to dictate how much you are going to pay as a buyer, so no bargain deals for the buyer.

If the buyer proses price was at least covering the costs of the crafting then perhaps seller prices would even drop because now the buyer has created competition between the crafters. A crafter will still make a profit, but those wanting to burn through items fast will make the moeny forcing those trying to be “greedy” with seller prices to possibly lower their price. Whether you buy from the high price or lower price, someone still turns a profit and someone is happy they got an item.

Again, I am fairly new in GW2 and could be totally wrong on the drop availability of this item and maybe it does drop and I have not seen this yet, but was trying to use it as an example of a non in-game drop item. If I am wrong on the drop availability of this particular item, then apply the same logic to something you know is craft only. If it is not crafted, then it won’t be in TP. If I do craft, then be prepared to pay a premium if the best counter offer you can give as a buyer is lower then it cost me to craft the item.

As far as I could explore these things, there’s usually a drop or buy-for-karma equivalent to things that can be crafted, except for food. But maybe things changes on top level?

Sudden.8729:

If the buyer proses price was at least covering the costs of the crafting then perhaps seller prices would even drop because now the buyer has created competition between the crafters.

The profit is the skill achieved by crafting. Therefore the drop of seller price already had taken place – that’s why crafted things can be sold so cheap. Crafters take the ingredients price as apprentice’s due, and the return of selling things as a small compensation.

I agree that it would be great to have the NPC sell value of an item at least as high as the cost of NPC only items used in its creation. This would be things like runes of holding bought with gold. That would at least set a baseline that’s fair.

As far as the materials that can be obtained by means other than NPC gold purchase, those are a reflection of someones time and effort. This includes wood, fine mats, karma items, etc. Who is to say what their time and effort is worth? That will keep the market from stagnating and keep things in line with a normal supply and demand market.

I would note that even with the ‘value’ of an item of say 59cp which a seller cannot set a price below, people are constantly bidding 1cp for stuff. Thus setting the ‘value’ at a minimum does not keep the ninnies from offering less than the value of an item.. bidders are just foo-less.. so are those sellers that post an item to the tp for 1 cp more than the price they’d get at an NPC merchant.. they lose the money themselves to the TP fees..
My wife rants endlessly about it.

Talyjta.9081:

The profit is the skill achieved by crafting. Therefore the drop of seller price already had taken place – that’s why crafted things can be sold so cheap. Crafters take the ingredients price as apprentice’s due, and the return of selling things as a small compensation.

True, but what about when you are Master at the skill? I am not disputing that crafters can make a profit; they most certainly can. I am saying that buyers could have a lot more say in the amount of profit if they set their own prices to be more competitive with the cost of making an item. NPC item costs are the only constant and no player can change that on the fly, the market / players decides how much your gather items are worth; but atleast propose a price that covers NPC cost

Sudden.8729:

True, but what about when you are Master at the skill?

Then other player characters, e.g. Alts or characters of newcomers, will still try to sell their items.
And you can sell your lower-level farmed materials to them, and start to think about you own legendary.

Those buy orders don’t go up because crafters are actually selling to them often enough to keep them that low. So no, they aren’t going to raise their offer for the sellers, just to stay above the other buyers. If you can’t make profit on something then make something else.

GW2 has a competitive market economy, so any profitable situation should disappear fairly quickly. It’s possible to make money, but you have to make the effort to figure out where the profit is at the moment. In the past week or so, I have made money:

- making parts for sale to a buyer (first tier Huntsman).
- making green items for sale to a vendor (no kidding – horns)
- making rare (yellow) items
- making beaded items

Everyone thinks crafting means making your items from scratch, but you can often find parts for less than the cost of making them (if you use offers instead of buying immediately).

You won’t find it profitable to make blue or green items most of the time – that’s where most of the competition is. (Not always, tho. I thought I’d never make money vendoring crafted items, but I found some parts dumped for very cheap. You might too, if you look.)

Well you see it is about supply and demand,
Supply: The amount of an item/service a given person/entity has or can make, at a given price.
Demand: The amount a consumer wants or needs and is willing to pay for said item or service.

People are demanding an item lower then the cost it takes to make them. Result: they do not get the item they want because,
A) Crafter, buys materials from TP (this is a 3rd party or middle man) Crafter makes item and lists item for a little extra then the cost to buy the mats trying to make profit.
B) Crafter will farm the mats himself trying to make more profit and realize that they sell for more if they are not refined into an item because of the buy order being so low, or still lists the complete item at the highest possible price trying to make even more profit.

Really it is only the truly desperate that sell complete items at lower prices, they aren’t getting ahead at all.
Also this game makes getting a top lvl profession extremely easy so the value of the service of making top tier items lower.

In case you don’t understand economy there is supply and there is demand. If there is more supply then price goes down, if there is more demand price tends to go up.

That means we ask 2 questions…

1) Why is supply high? Because people need 400 for legendary, they want to craft or most likely and crafting is stupid easy so anyone can do it, its not like you have to have a college degree to craft. Plus its a stupid easy way of leveling.

2) why is demand low? Because you can buy armor and weapons @ between the 5’s and 10’s that are cheaper than crafting, you can craft your own weapons… so the only real demand is really just level 80 rare/exotics.

Me personally, I only buy between 5’s and 10’s because its too pricey unless I’m leveling my crafting as I level my character.

But… there are ways of making money with crafting, I’m just not going to tell you because then there would be yet another supplier. :P

Highvoltage.7946:

NO! Lower your sell price!!

I’m hardly a profit-driven player…

However, I am not going to craft an item and then sell it for LESS than what it cost to make, sorry.
If I go to the time and effort of crafting something that I plan to sell, I want to make at least a bit of gold. Otherwise, what is the point? This isn’t a charity…especially considering the current price of crafting mats.
I suggest you take a look at the crafting recipes at GW2 database and then research the cost of those mats on the TP….

I seriously do not understand all of the low-ball orders I see on the TP. Were I placing a custom order on an item I would check the way the prices were trending, and then I would make my minimum price a little less than that of the current lowest seller. When I place something on the TP I always look at the orders, and if somebody has ordered something for a small percentage less than the going rate I will often sell said item to them. It’s easier for me because I don’t have to worry about the next seller undercutting me, nor do I have to worry about reposting. In that situation it’s a win/win all round.

The fundamental issue here is that everyone can make anything easier. It takes 20 minutes to max out a crafting profession. The fact that you can craft something means nothing, because anyone who wants it can research how it’s done and craft it themselves for essentially minimum price.

The only buy orders out there are for less than the item is worth, in case people got that item from drops, or crafted too many accidentally and are looking to unload and recoup some cost.

The only things that one can craft that others might not be able to are off of extremely rare crafting recipes that come from dungeons, and for those, the production/sale difference is astronomical (70s to craft, sells for 15g). Quite a few items like that.

Skill points have value. People do not sell “below cost”. They sell at whatever level satisfies, and it takes into account not only the value of the raw materials, but the value of the time and effort spent researching prices, the value of the skill points and experience points they get out of it, and quite possibly other factors we’re not considering.

If you’re shooting for max crafting skill, a few gold is a small price to pay. Mind you, I try to craft only things for which I can get both money and skill points… but that’s just because I actually enjoy taking the time to identifiy gluts and shortages. But even with that, were it all about the money, I wouldn’t be crafting at all. I’d just flip. Because no matter what you’re crafting, if it is a step on the ladder to max skill, there will be a price discount that reflects the value of the skill points.

tl;dr:

Cost = Materials + Labor + Tedium and Frustration
Revenue = Finished Product + Skill Points + Fun and Satisfaction

Kinda have to remember that ingots are worth LESS than the ore used to make them – because by making the ingot you have squeezed the XP out of them. Pretty much ANYONE who could use an ingot also hes the recipe to make the ingot themselves if the ore had been available. The same applies right on up the production chain.

Its a big part of why mid-tier food is worthless on the market – you’ve already sucked the useful part out of the materials – the XP. Now you just have the sticky pie-like residue to offer .

I don’t think you can specify a price lower than the merchant value. If that’s correct, it follows that those are all old prices, or server-generated prices.

Tarvok.4206:

Skill points have value. People do not sell “below cost”. They sell at whatever level satisfies, and it takes into account not only the value of the raw materials, but the value of the time and effort spent researching prices, the value of the skill points and experience points they get out of it, and quite possibly other factors we’re not considering.

If you’re shooting for max crafting skill, a few gold is a small price to pay. Mind you, I try to craft only things for which I can get both money and skill points… but that’s just because I actually enjoy taking the time to identifiy gluts and shortages. But even with that, were it all about the money, I wouldn’t be crafting at all. I’d just flip. Because no matter what you’re crafting, if it is a step on the ladder to max skill, there will be a price discount that reflects the value of the skill points.

tl;dr:

Cost = Materials + Labor + Tedium and Frustration
Revenue = Finished Product + Skill Points + Fun and Satisfaction

Excellent post! And, quite correct, too.

There are always intangibles in economies. In the case of crafting, intangibles drive the prices of crafted items lower than materials costs in most cases. This is because part of the value of the act of crafting something is the XP and crafting points one receives.

So, as you say, it is still simply supply and demand working as expected. There are just some elements that don’t carry a gold price.

An in-game example might illustrate this for some readers: A while back, my jeweler character wanted to move up the crafting ladder a bit. But, as a whole, my characters hadn’t done so well in collecting gold ore. So, I needed quite a bit more gold ore than I had in order to move my jeweler up a level.

Now, I could have gone and farmed for gold. But, at that time, I was in a hurry, so I just went out and bought a bunch. On the cost side of Tarvok’s post I was willing to pay money in order to avoid “Labor + Tedium and Frustration”. Further, on the revenue side, I didn’t really care about how much money I received. I was doing it strictly for the jeweling points.

That’s why I never sell at the buyer’s price. I only sell below the market value a few copper. That way I’m the very first person that gets the sale and I still make a profit.

There’s 50000 crafters available for each recipe. If someone posted an order where you could actually make a profit, it’d already be filled up by someone else. Which is why when you look at the TP, the odds are very very high you’ll only see the demands for prices lower than the craft cost.

It’s because it’s the only demands that stay long enough for you to see them.

stof.9341:

There’s 50000 crafters available for each recipe. If someone posted an order where you could actually make a profit, it’d already be filled up by someone else. Which is why when you look at the TP, the odds are very very high you’ll only see the demands for prices lower than the craft cost.

It’s because it’s the only demands that stay long enough for you to see them.

You must not be @ 400 Jewelcrafting then… hmm… guess my 1 gold profit a day from simply buying the materials off the Trading Post and selling it back as a crafted item isn’t paying off… guess I should stop getting about a 13% return rate of my investment every single day because I know how to buy & sell??

Ya, I think I’ll stick to a free gold a day. Jewelery sells w/in an hour at bottom market value. The average rate of return is 8 – 15% depending on what you sell… and that’s buying every crafting material straight out of TP. I did the math, I know.

FYI, I’ll be uploading a youtube on how it"s easily possible w/in month… w/ all the math to boot.

ThCakeIsALie.5306:

stof.9341:

There’s 50000 crafters available for each recipe. If someone posted an order where you could actually make a profit, it’d already be filled up by someone else. Which is why when you look at the TP, the odds are very very high you’ll only see the demands for prices lower than the craft cost.

It’s because it’s the only demands that stay long enough for you to see them.

You must not be @ 400 Jewelcrafting then… hmm… guess my 1 gold profit a day from simply buying the materials off the Trading Post and selling it back as a crafted item isn’t paying off… guess I should stop getting about a 13% return rate of my investment every single day because I know how to buy & sell??

Ya, I think I’ll stick to a free gold a day. Jewelery sells w/in an hour at bottom market value. The average rate of return is 8 – 15% depending on what you sell… and that’s buying every crafting material straight out of TP. I did the math, I know.

Are you selling the items back in “demands” or just putting them for sale at the price you want and wait for someone to pick it up?

stof.9341:

Are you selling the items back in “demands” or just putting them for sale at the price you want and wait for someone to pick it up?

First you have to realize that Jewelcrafting is the only skill that everyone buys and fits on everyone, non-race/profession specific. It’s how I knew it would bring me profit before I even started.

Second, amulets both cost more to make and also give a larger investment return, but the return rate % may still be the same as selling earrings or rings. Regardless, I ONLY sell amulets because I don’t want to spend too much money early on and I want a larger pool return… regardless of the % value return rate.

I then go into TP, type in ‘amulet’ in the search, and sort them by price: highest to lowest.

The Orichalcum amulets are the simplest amulets to make outside of any special amulet (i.e. Triforce Pendant, etc) and are always in high demand. I look at the most expensive Ori-amulet and create it… usually it’s the Exquisite Ruby, but I’ve seen Emerald get up there too.

Due to the fluctuation of the market prices may vary, but I always get a positive % return investment. Last time I did the math I came out to a 13% out of nothing (just buying all the crafting material straight from the TP for a test run, minus the deduction it would take to post it back into the TP).

Again, a LOT of math, but well worth it since it makes me a free gold a day. Basically what I do is I craft an amulet when I start the game, sell it, and w/in an hour I’ve earned anywhere from 30 – 50 silver. Before I leave the game I create another amulet, sell it, and earn the same… 100% profit, 1 free gold a day.

Like I said, I’ll be making an exhaustive guide on it. Usually the amulet prices stay the same w/ the fluctuation of Ectos so you pretty much still get a 8 – 15% return rate. For anyone who knows money, that’s a lot in the long run.

I’m now putting 1 gold a day in my bank account for later use. This is on top of my normal dungeon/map completion runs so I’ve made about 10+ gold in the last week from this strategy alone playing casual (I work for a living).

Oh, and once I finish the amulet I go back into the TP to see the bottom sale price. I then go up to 10 copper less than the bottom price depending on how many are selling at that price (if 10 EA are selling at 3g24s15c, I will go down to 3g24s5c; if 1 EA are selling at 3g24s15c, I match it).

This GUARANTEES me a sale w/in one hour… EVERY time.

(tried selling higher than the bottom price once by 10c… never sold)

So, you finally answered my question : you do not sell the item to “buy demands” but list the item at a price and wait for someone to buy it.

My answer was in the context of the first post that asked people to stop putting “buy demands” for items at a price lower than creation cost.

Sudden,
I don’t happen to know what the costs of materials are for anything except the items I happen to craft. Anet could help here by increasing the vendor price as mentioned above, but there is also some action you can take to protect yourself as well: offer a buy price of your own.

I’m sure I’m not the only person who has offered custom buy prices on stuff I’m selling. Doing so carries additional expense and risk however it locks out the lowball offers pretty effectively. You stand to lose money if more people sell you bags at 10g than buy them at 12g, but that will also help you decide to abandon the market completely rather than to reform it. You might also find yourself a hidden opportunity for additional money if you manage to routinely fill your buy orders & sell out product.

Also, as non-soulbound bags (or similar items) fill the market, people will eventually outgrow them and/or choose to get a different, specialty bag. As this happens, old bags will reenter the market depressing the sale price away from the crafting price.