Guild Wars 2

or my expectations of it?

What I expected:

• a way to obtain gear for my chars and my guild mates
  • an easier way to obtain standard gear
  • a limited way to obtain special gear
• a way to convert gaming effort into a reasonable amount of in game currency
• an interesting part of the game

What crafting currently is:

• http://gw2crafts.saladon.net/total.html
• a requirement for Legendary items
• a way to buy 10 levels of xp

So crafting is something you buy in order to create Legendary items (which still cost a lot for people like me) meanwhile getting a lot of xp.

Someone in my guild has 8 chars one has all disciplines at 400 and all have cooking at 400 because cooking is cheap.

I can’t understand why someone would buy xp since it is so easy to level and I’m almost always above my story level (and thus the reward is useless as well)

Buying crafting components/insignias/inscriptions form the TP is up to 70% cheaper than crafting. So crafting is destroying gold.

Leveling crafting requires to craft so many items which are all useless (i.e. nothing worth on TP, even if it would be your level and stat choice you only need one not 10+).

So is the only purpose of crafting to buy Legendaries?

Personally, I leveled all crafting disciplines, because I’m a completionist… otherwise I fully agree with your post

If you’re a savy crafter, there are niche markets where you can profit via crafting. but you need to do some digging to identify where to make that kind of investment and prepare to craft in bulk!

I was so excited that guild wars was adding crafting to the game. It was the main reason i bought the game. But i was expecting the crafting to be what i remembered it to be in other games i played: meaningful, profitable, and fun. I am very disappointed in the GW2 crafting. It seems like everything in the game is strictly “directed” into getting ONE super prize: the legendary. So all other gameplay is nerfed.

Yes this sums up the problem for sure. Becoming a max crafter is cheap since everyone can collect every raw material, so there is a glut on the market.

For starters, Anet needs to up the base material requirements about 6x for crafted items. Then they have to give large salvaging bonuses to crafters (i.e. Leatherworkers get 2x returns on medium armor salvages). Lastly and most importantly, crafted items should offer a 1-5% bonus on damage for crafted weapons (combining weaps in the Mystic forge will determine the bonus here), and crafted armor a 100% reduction of damage taken from deaths. As well, armor can be repaired for free by armor crafters with a tool they can make once they hit 400 (not cheap!).

What is wrong with crafting? In short.. just about everything! Crafting is a waste of gold and time. Most anything you would like to craft is cheaper to buy from the TP. This is at all levels. I recently tried to level crafting with an alt as I moved him to 80. The first thing I can create are level 10 blue gear. When I go to try and make the gear I realize that the components I need to use sell for about 1 silver, the finished piece sells for 18 copper.

Honestly, what is the point? I really hope that someone at Anet is aware of the fact that crafting in this game is horribly broken and a complete waste of time and money.

Well I managed to get 400 Chef and Artificer on one of my characters without breaking my bank the other day (At least $ wise, space was an issue). But I also had a lot of materials saved up and I am pretty sure I would have made more $ to just sell the items. Personally, I think it is a bit too easy to level to crafting. 400 was very quick to get; I even skipped half the inscriptions in artificer.

I do hope that add more purpose to crafting. There are a few things I though of that they could do.
1- Account Bound Crafting Drops: Chef already does this, but if you can’t see it, you’re only way to profit from it is to craft it. So if you could get a 10 Oricalchum Ore Account Bound Drop or Ecto Account Bound Drops it would really help encourage players to craft without flooding the markets.
2- Repairing Items: These would be special Salavage items that you could also repair with a certain level. So you could get a Rusty Sword (Salvage Item, Weaponsmith 400). You could salvage for some materials, maybe Ori even. But if you took it to a crafting station and used your 400 weaponsmith, and maybe some materials, you could turn it into a weapon. Maybe it would be a masterwork, maybe a rare, or very rare chance it could be an exotic. The idea is that most of the time it would break even, but on rare occasions you could repair it to find it is a very rare weapon. Alternatively, you could know what it is as a drop (e.g. Broken Orichalcum Sword) and make them account bound; then you would have to repair or salvage.
3- Unique Skins: Why should the mystic forge get all the unique skins? It would be nice to see some high cost skins crafters could make. It would give more a reason to get 400. Although if some of the skins used account bound materials it would make it even harder to get so more profit.

Just some ideas anyway.

1) Crafting as you go by using mats you collect as you level and replacing select pieces of gear as you level is perfectly viable. There is a player base that likes to only work off things they drop / gather / craft / vendor and don’t like to use the trading post. Crafting is perfectly viable for these players.

2) Crafting for pure profit is viable. Study the market and find what there is demand for. Not every crafted item is profitable, nor should it be.

3) If you don’t know what to do with a lvl 400 crafter, can I strongly suggest you look at Rare Recipes? Corrupted Weapons are one example of a market that can both produce profit, and a weapon that isn’t just floating around. There others out there….

BioMasterZap.4350:

3- Unique Skins: Why should the mystic forge get all the unique skins? It would be nice to see some high cost skins crafters could make. It would give more a reason to get 400. Although if some of the skins used account bound materials it would make it even harder to get so more profit.

Just some ideas anyway.

This is in the game already… Godskull weapons are crafted, Corrupted weapons are crafted….

CassieGold.7460:

BioMasterZap.4350:

3- Unique Skins: Why should the mystic forge get all the unique skins? It would be nice to see some high cost skins crafters could make. It would give more a reason to get 400. Although if some of the skins used account bound materials it would make it even harder to get so more profit.

Just some ideas anyway.

This is in the game already… Godskull weapons are crafted, Corrupted weapons are crafted….

or basically all the crafted rares.

Selling things for a profit is only one way of looking at “income”. Being able to craft things for less than what it cost to buy is another. You might not be acquiring additional money but you are saving money. This is mostly for rares and exotics only but also true for some mid level masterwork items.

Well I did forget about those weapons, but I mean some more impressive and unique skins; not always weapon sets either. The mystic forge gets a lot of cool weapons like Jormag’s Breath, so it would be nice to see more like that from crafting and not just forge. I know some already use gifts and statues from crafting, like the H’Ween Weapons. Still, more like those or maybe even some skins with a brand new process using crafting would be nice to see.

Crafting is a way to be mostly self-sufficient in that you can craft rather than buy gear or have to wait for just the right drops. It is a form of leveling, something to complete, and I did actually enjoy that, and figuring out a strategy for having my first three characters craft everything I needed gear wise. I did have to buy more special crafting items than I liked as the drop rates where not high enough to keep up with the leveling. If the XP requirements for leveling where higher, I could have got the materials I needed eventually without having to buy them. The flip side to that I did experience as well as sometimes my crafting would get ahead of my level.

That being said I do wish that crafting would let you learn how to craft different skins, as the standards are not very good. The stupid pearl weapons are just plain ugly and I find myself transmuting to much lower level skins until I can earn dungeon tokens for those skins.

I really don’t see how everyone can be expecting to craft for profit when someone will just craft their own rather than hand you money. Now if there where many unique crafting skin recipes that where hard to obtain, then there would be a way to make a profit, but again, anything you can attain, someone else will also, and competition will drive the prices down.

Elric Of Melnibone.4781:

I really don’t see how everyone can be expecting to craft for profit when someone will just craft their own rather than hand you money. Now if there where many unique crafting skin recipes that where hard to obtain, then there would be a way to make a profit, but again, anything you can attain, someone else will also, and competition will drive the prices down.

Look into what the dungeon rings sell for if you manage to get one of the recipes for a dungeon ring…

CassieGold.7460:

1) Crafting as you go by using mats you collect as you level and replacing select pieces of gear as you level is perfectly viable. There is a player base that likes to only work off things they drop / gather / craft / vendor and don’t like to use the trading post. Crafting is perfectly viable for these players.

Its great as an RP tool only at this point. Gearing up is too easy as crafting mats are plentiful and drops often are equal or greater, and/or meaningless to the levelling game until you hit 80 and start doing explorables.

CassieGold.7460:

2) Crafting for pure profit is viable. Study the market and find what there is demand for. Not every crafted item is profitable, nor should it be.

Every crafted item should be desirable to players though. I can use GW2spidey and a couple other tools to find what components (because thats where the profit is these days, not really finished goods) will net me a few silver. But crafted items in general are meaningless compared to a good dungeon set or pre-cursor.

CassieGold.7460:

3) If you don’t know what to do with a lvl 400 crafter, can I strongly suggest you look at Rare Recipes? Corrupted Weapons are one example of a market that can both produce profit, and a weapon that isn’t just floating around. There others out there….

This is good advice for crafters. But still does nothing to help fix a broken system.

That’s really RNG driven. If your lucky enough to get a rare recipe drop or even a precursor, your rich. If only there where precursor recipes…

coppertopper.5620

CassieGold.7460:

2) Crafting for pure profit is viable. Study the market and find what there is demand for. Not every crafted item is profitable, nor should it be.

Every crafted item should be desirable to players though. I can use GW2spidey and a couple other tools to find what components (because thats where the profit is these days, not really finished goods) will net me a few silver. But crafted items in general are meaningless compared to a good dungeon set or pre-cursor.

I want to disagree that every crafted item should be desireable to the extent that it is profitable.

Crafted blues should never be profitable. They are short term use items that are quickly out leveled or, at level cap, replaced by Masterwork / Rare / Exotic items. They serve a limited utility purpose and are valued accordingly.

If, however, RNG has proved to be un-kind to you durring leveling, crafting gives you a way to get access to a gear upgrade as you level. I finished a zone on my low level necro, and got a Masterwork GS and Heavy Armor Chest…. bad RNG…. but I can go craft a new staff and I can craft higher level armor, so no big deal.

Some players don’t do dungeons because they dislike instanced play (read all the threads about improving open world play and not forcing people into dungeons.) Crafting gives people an alternative method to acquire exotic weapons and armor.

Crafting serves many purposes in GW2.

1) Crafting does provide a host of skins that are not available elsewhere
2) Crafting does provide a method to completely gear a character (asside from ascended gear, but that’s a whole other thread)
3) Crafting plays a role in obtaining the most valuable items in the game (legendary)
4) Crafting can provide an income opportunity for people who learn how to craft for profit.

Given all of that, I fail to see what crafting is not doing for us that it should be….

If anyone has ever been a crafter in Star Wars Galaxies or Ultima Online, you would understand why so many are disappointed in GW2’s crafting. Crafting should at least be as fun as the old school games, and better yet…how about more improved and more fun? The ingredients were never more then the finished product, gathering was plentiful, and more fun because not every area was covered in mob spawns. Players were proud to be a crafter.

CassieGold.7460:

1) Crafting does provide a host of skins that are not available elsewhere
2) Crafting does provide a method to completely gear a character (asside from ascended gear, but that’s a whole other thread)
3) Crafting plays a role in obtaining the most valuable items in the game (legendary)
4) Crafting can provide an income opportunity for people who learn how to craft for profit.

Given all of that, I fail to see what crafting is not doing for us that it should be….

Well, lets take a look at these.

1) agreed, crafting can provide skins that are not available elsewhere in the game.

2)True, but why on earth would you spend the resources to craft gear that you can buy on the TP for 20% of the cost of materials? If you have the mats, they are more valuable if you sell them on the TP and buy the gear, then to use them to make it yourself. While I agree, you CAN gear a toon out through crafting, its not the most efficient way by any means. You are basically wasting your money.

3)Agreed, crafting plays a role in creating legendary weapons. Of course, you would need to have a precourser in order to make any use of this benefit from crafting, and they aren’t exactly available to many, butthat is a whole different topic!

4)I guess, but if you want to make 10 copper per crafted item, you might still be better off selling the raw materials. If I need to consult a website like spidey to find out what item to craft today 1000 times in order to make 10 silver profit, I would much rather do something else with my time.

It just seems like a broken system when the only time I ever revisit the crafting station is to refine 10 items to get my daily. Of course, I could then sell those 10 items and make myself a 5 copper profit… At every step, crafting costs you money and time and provides very little benefits. I hope Anet revisits crafting in the future and gives players a reason to craft.

OdinBudd.5298:

4)I guess, but if you want to make 10 copper per crafted item, you might still be better off selling the raw materials. If I need to consult a website like spidey to find out what item to craft today 1000 times in order to make 10 silver profit, I would much rather do something else with my time.

It just seems like a broken system when the only time I ever revisit the crafting station is to refine 10 items to get my daily. Of course, I could then sell those 10 items and make myself a 5 copper profit… At every step, crafting costs you money and time and provides very little benefits. I hope Anet revisits crafting in the future and gives players a reason to craft.

I’m not crafting for $$ at the moment, but I think if you look at lvl 80 rares, exotics, and crafted exotics that have recipes you have to acquire from methods other than discovery, you will find that the margins are SIGNIFICANTLY more than a few silver per item.

When I am crafting for profit, my process usually runs about like this:

1) Post a LFG for a dungeon that I want to do, but have a hard time finding a group for…. usually CoE or TA, then hunker down to craft while I idle in lions arch.
2) Search the TP for items that are listing high at the moment…. jot down the cost of the lowest seller.
3) Search the TP for the raw mats if purchased via a ‘buy now’ jot down the total cost to produce the item.
4) Look at the margin. If it’s wide enough, move on, if not, repeat 2 + 3.
5) If the margin is sufficient, look at the total volume listed for sale vs the total number of buy orders (gaging velocity, because that lets me make an informed decision in the next step.)
6) Buy a large amount of raw mats, spam craft, and bulk list at or close to the current lowest seller. I’ll pick up my profit in the morning, or after the dungeon, or… whenever.

And I realize that sounds like a ton of effort. The truth is, it isn’t. A few minutes of poking the TP (I don’t use spidy,) and a few minutes actually crafting. All in all, probably 15 minutes of time spent in LA, idling while I’m looking for a dungeon group, and then I let the TP do the work for me over night.

You have to develop a sense of what the market will bear. I find that if I list more than 25-30 lvl 80 rares in one lump, I get undercut for a significantly longer period of time because it takes too long to cycle through, but if I list smaller batches…. 15-20 at a time, people are more likely to match on my low price…. and then it’s FIFO.

If I’m working in Exotics, I never work in batches of more than 3-4, but the margins are larger on exotics that are profitable. The velocity is also lower, it takes longer for an item to move.

I really, really want to debunk the notion that crafting is not profitable. It is, you just have to learn a bit about what does make a profit.

Last hint: If you look at the most highly valued precursors, and craft the lvl 80 rares for that precursor, there is usually a high demand for those rares because people are hucking them in the forge en masse.

GL in your crafting, whatever you do with it.

Edit: I just wanted to add that I’m really not trying to be obtuse and ‘not give up a secret’ by not mentioning specific items. It’s a moving target… some times, it’s Rare Greatswords… some times, it’s Exotic Berserker’s Light Armor…. the key is to know how to look for the target.

CassieGold.7460:

I’m not crafting for $$ at the moment, but I think if you look at lvl 80 rares, exotics, and crafted exotics that have recipes you have to acquire from methods other than discovery, you will find that the margins are SIGNIFICANTLY more than a few silver per item.

When I am crafting for profit, my process usually runs about like this:

Sure occasionally 1 or 2 items from 1-2 of the crafting professions, and usually a jewelery piece at that, can make you a few silver. Or like your example, a rare recipe can garner you some money. But so can a rare dye, or an exotic with a superior rune that is desirable. Once again – nothing to do with crafting – its all RNG. You don’t even have to be a crafter to get that superior rune out of the item – another thing that could have made crafters more useful in GW2.

You seem to delight in finding the gold dust but forget all of the mud you are sifting through to find it, which currently represents crafting in GW2.

coppertopper.5620:

CassieGold.7460:

I’m not crafting for $$ at the moment, but I think if you look at lvl 80 rares, exotics, and crafted exotics that have recipes you have to acquire from methods other than discovery, you will find that the margins are SIGNIFICANTLY more than a few silver per item.

When I am crafting for profit, my process usually runs about like this:

Sure occasionally 1 or 2 items from 1-2 of the crafting professions, and usually a jewelery piece at that, can make you a few silver. Or like your example, a rare recipe can garner you some money. But so can a rare dye, or an exotic with a superior rune that is desirable. Once again – nothing to do with crafting – its all RNG. You don’t even have to be a crafter to get that superior rune out of the item – another thing that could have made crafters more useful in GW2.

You seem to delight in finding the gold dust but forget all of the mud you are sifting through to find it, which currently represents crafting in GW2.

Crafting for $$ is the exact opposite of RNG…. it’s finding out where there is 1) Demand, and 2) Opportunity.

No one is going to hand you $$ because you managed to level a craft to 400, but if you want to make money as a crafter, you need to apply skills outside of the mechanics of crafting.

Yes, there is some mud out there. Lots of it. But is every crafted item in other games profitable to craft?

You can make lots of things that few people want, Chef is full of opportunity like that… tons of things no one buys. It also has several recipes that are in high and constant demand, which can be quite profitable to the savvy crafter.

One of my guild mates makes most of his money on mid level rare artificer items, I tend to make mine in weaponsmith or armorer. I’ve turned a profit as a chef making rare dyes (sold un-identified, and by taking the gamble and identifying it, but that I attribute to RNG luck), I’ve turned a profit while leveling tailor selling mid-range greens (was shocked at that one, it wasn’t something I went looking for.) The list goes on.

There is a LOT of mud, and there is also substantial opportunity.

Here’s the question I would pose to you: If you could make one change to the state of crafting to make it better, what would it be?

CassieGold.7460:

Here’s the question I would pose to you: If you could make one change to the state of crafting to make it better, what would it be?

I like this discussion, and you raise some very valid points CassieGold. First, I don’t see you as being obtuse about what to craft. If you have a few trade secrets that you have learned and wish not to share them, that’s completely understandable, but I gather what you said is more true, its a moving, ever changing target. As for the strategy you use, yes it does sound complicated, but I’m also not that smart :P I guess I can give it a shot, but it seems a lot like playing the stock market (which I don’t do either!) Your tip about the precoursers was most appreciated, and something I will be keeping an eye on.

I guess if I could make one change to crafting, it would be to make it more customizable. I am in complete agreement that not everything you craft should turn a profit, but I know I would pay good money for gear that was crafted with my name on it, personalized gear that could be bind on equip, or not, chances are I would never sell it anyway! I will break the rules and give a second change, what if crafters could mix and match stats? Like cond dam, vit, tough… or whatever combo you wanted>?

CassieGold.7460:

Here’s the question I would pose to you: If you could make one change to the state of crafting to make it better, what would it be?

You know if I am coming off as overly defensive or putting down your opinions I apologize. I love crafting in MMOs, and actually really enjoy the act of crafting in GW2, but currently am really unsatisfied with its place in the game world/economy.

To answer your question, I would say basically what I said in my first response:
1)increase material quantities required for crafted items about 4x to counter the glut and ease of gathering
2)give crafted items small bonuses to damage/defense – and this at all levels of crafted gear – tied in with the mystic forge somehow (combine 4 items to get a +1% to ‘X’ stat)
3)give crafters a bonus to return on salvaging items related to whatever craft they are currently spec’d in – leatherworkers get 2X return on med armor salvages, ect (with crafting discipline level affecting how high of an item level they can get this bonus on)

@OdinBudd & coppertopper both, I’m very much enjoying the conversations, I like good debate, and I hope, if nothing else, we all walk away from a good conversation with some new ideas

coppertopper, thanks for the reply, I wanted to counter point a few things that you had to say, hope you don’t mind

coppertopper.5620:

CassieGold.7460:

Here’s the question I would pose to you: If you could make one change to the state of crafting to make it better, what would it be?

1)increase material quantities required for crafted items about 4x to counter the glut and ease of gathering
2)give crafted items small bonuses to damage/defense – and this at all levels of crafted gear – tied in with the mystic forge somehow (combine 4 items to get a +1% to ‘X’ stat)
3)give crafters a bonus to return on salvaging items related to whatever craft they are currently spec’d in – leatherworkers get 2X return on med armor salvages, ect (with crafting discipline level affecting how high of an item level they can get this bonus on)

1) I don’t know if this would be a good thing or not. It creates a barrier to entry and makes the process of crafting and leveling crafting more difficult. People who start playing after a change of this nature will face a higher barrier to crafting and there will be some community divide focused around people who are already lvl 400 crafters and those who are still leveling it. A second major drawback I see here is that crafted goods could become less price competitive with alternative methods of getting similar items. If it took 20 globs of ecto to forge an exotic great sword, it would drive people to dungeons even more for exotic gear (or other sources of gear, karma, etc) Remember, crafted goods have to compete with Dungeon goods, karma goods, and loot drops for ease of acquisition.

2) I think Arena-Net would not go this direction because it’s contrary to their goal of providing even statistical platforms across all areas of the game. If a crafted weapon could be statistically better than a dungeon weapon, that would cause a disconnect in some fundamental design platforms.

Something people have advocated for in this vein before (and maybe in this thread now that I think about it, but I’m being lazy and not re-reading the whole thing) is the ability to create different stat combinations than are already available. From an A-net prospective, this makes game balance more difficult as it adds complexity to the system. If you look at the changes from GW1 to GW2, you can see Isaiah’s strong hand in simplifying the mechanics surrounding balance.

3) If crafters had a bonus to salvaging, it would up the rate at which raw materials enter the market, which would reduce the cost of crafted goods, and put crafting in a worse position now. While some people would mule weapons to a weaponsmith character for salvage, just to get the extra bit, most people would find it inconvenient to do so, and would leave a craft that they never otherwise used, but garnered the highest return on salvage as their assigned crafting profession.

I wanted to toss out what I think crafting needs if I were to make one change, just to see if y’all think it would help:

I think crafting needs more recipes that use account bound items. The dungeon rings are a great example, but I wish the recipe could be purchased for dungeon tokens. If I have to go to a dungeon, and gain the tokens, then craft the item with those tokens, I can create things that required effort on my part, and I can sell that effort.

Way better than hucking 1600 dungeon tokens into the mystic forge via exotic greatswords and hoping for a precursor, then selling the resultant exotic for 1-3 gold :P

The way I see it, all the problems with crafting can be solved by increasing the importance of crafted items. This can be done by either:

1. Increasing the Armor/weapon stats of crafted items for their level.
2. Decreasing the level limit of crafted items.

This would allow crafted items to be superior in stats to other items of the same level.
So, there would be an incentive for players to craft items if they want to possess the best equipment available for their level.

Since crafted equipment is now “Valuable” the prices of crafting mats would go up. Similarly, the crafted equipment prices would also go up.
These change in the economy would also give an incentive to players of all levels to go out in search of crafting mats to sell on the TP or craft equipment for later resale.

I’m aware that it is possible to gain money from crafting. So I’m not yet convinced that this can compete with other methods of gaining money.

But my main point is:

CassieGold.7460:

Crafting as you go by using mats you collect as you level and replacing select pieces of gear as you level is perfectly viable.

I disagree about that for the following reasons

• “normal” playing yields not enough resources to keep your crafting at level and produces gear
• you need to produce a lot of gear for leveling, which you don’t need and can’t sell for profit since everybody produces it in extreme quantity
• the TP value of resources is much higher than the crafted items (example: darksteel helm casing (11c) produced from 1 darksteel ignot (58c) → instead of crafting one helm casing you can buy 5). This is not viable.

CassieGold.7460:

When I am crafting for profit, my process usually runs about like this:

1) Post a LFG for a dungeon that I want to do, but have a hard time finding a group for…. usually CoE or TA, then hunker down to craft while I idle in lions arch.
2) Search the TP for items that are listing high at the moment…. jot down the cost of the lowest seller.
3) Search the TP for the raw mats if purchased via a ‘buy now’ jot down the total cost to produce the item.
4) Look at the margin. If it’s wide enough, move on, if not, repeat 2 + 3.
5) If the margin is sufficient, look at the total volume listed for sale vs the total number of buy orders (gaging velocity, because that lets me make an informed decision in the next step.)
6) Buy a large amount of raw mats, spam craft, and bulk list at or close to the current lowest seller. I’ll pick up my profit in the morning, or after the dungeon, or… whenever.

You have to develop a sense of what the market will bear. I find that if I list more than 25-30 lvl 80 rares in one lump, I get undercut for a significantly longer period of time because it takes too long to cycle through, but if I list smaller batches…. 15-20 at a time, people are more likely to match on my low price…. and then it’s FIFO.

I really, really want to debunk the notion that crafting is not profitable. It is, you just have to learn a bit about what does make a profit.

Last hint: If you look at the most highly valued precursors, and craft the lvl 80 rares for that precursor, there is usually a high demand for those rares because people are hucking them in the forge en masse.

Edit: I just wanted to add that I’m really not trying to be obtuse and ‘not give up a secret’ by not mentioning specific items. It’s a moving target… some times, it’s Rare Greatswords… some times, it’s Exotic Berserker’s Light Armor…. the key is to know how to look for the target.

What you are doing is not crafting, its called “playing the Trade Post”. In GW2 the ingredients sell for more then the finished product in most cases. Crafting in games was originally designed to be meaningful, profitable, and very fun. I do not think GW2 crafting has evolved or improved on the original concept of crafting, but has nerfed it to be the opposite: not meaningful, not profitable, and annoying rather then fun.

One big flaw with crafting in this game is that everyone can do everything.

A society works because people specialize. But in GW2 everyone is master of everything and competing with everyone.

I can’t craft ascended(loot or token exchange) or legendary (a captured magical Djinn crafts that for you like a slave for the Lionguard).
So my crafting characters are 2 levels lower than best in slot.
When I can up my craft another 2 levels (400-600) so I can craft the ungodly expensive to make stuff, I’ll be very happy. Until then it is just a waste of time and money because I refuse to ‘specialize’ in one or two crafting recipes out of the dozens available just to make money from the two things people want on the market.

I was led to believe that I would be able to craft the best stuff – I don’t believe legendary’s count for that as I don’t actually have the skill to craft it. But I should be able to craft ascended stuff even if it costs me some random token from some new content to get it ‘blessed’ by some other random magical entity – Captured Ancient Karka eats your stuff and bites an infusion slot into your whatever.

lisamee.2408:

What you are doing is not crafting, its called “playing the Trade Post”. In GW2 the ingredients sell for more then the finished product in most cases. Crafting in games was originally designed to be meaningful, profitable, and very fun. I do not think GW2 crafting has evolved or improved on the original concept of crafting, but has nerfed it to be the opposite: not meaningful, not profitable, and annoying rather then fun.

In what game does profit fundamentally not distil down to:

Step 1: Determine what items have value to the playing community
Step 2: Provide those items

If I was playing the trading post, power trading, I would simply put buy orders out for under valued items, and relist those same items at a higher rate. There are people who do this quite successfully, but that has nothing to do with crafting.

You can self source your mats without the TP, arguments can be made for and against this method as being worth while for a return on investment based on time spent and based on the yield difference of what you would get selling your mats for highest offer vs buying mats at lowest seller and crafting….. Believe it or not, the last few pieces of exotic jewelry that I sold (last night) were made based on what mats I had lying around that I had little other purpose for. I think I spent 10 minutes total on crafting to walk away with 2g after I bought back the ecto I consumed in the crafting.

You can call that playing the TP if you want, but I really want to know how anyone thingks crafting should be profitable without involving the market place, identifying player demand, and catering to that demand.

As to weather or not it’s meaningful or fun…. Personally, I loved the game Alchemy (android app) for combining stuff to make stuff, and finding new combinations. Chef had so many flashback moments to the joy of that game that it was an absolute joy for me to level.

Your definition of fun may vary, but the nice thing is: Because crafting does not produce anything that is statistically better than you can get elsewhere in the game, if you don’t have fun crafting, you don’t have to feel pressured to do it to get superior gear.

On the topic of Ascended Gear, I whole heartedly agree that it needs to be craftable, but I fully understand that the gear is still in a ‘roll out’ phase and the crafting methods for ascended gear are not yet implemented. Meanwhile, there is still a demand for crafted exotics.

TheBlueI.3486:

I’m aware that it is possible to gain money from crafting. So I’m not yet convinced that this can compete with other methods of gaining money.

But my main point is:

CassieGold.7460:

Crafting as you go by using mats you collect as you level and replacing select pieces of gear as you level is perfectly viable.

I disagree about that for the following reasons

• “normal” playing yields not enough resources to keep your crafting at level and produces gear
• you need to produce a lot of gear for leveling, which you don’t need and can’t sell for profit since everybody produces it in extreme quantity
• the TP value of resources is much higher than the crafted items (example: darksteel helm casing (11c) produced from 1 darksteel ignot (58c) -> instead of crafting one helm casing you can buy 5). This is not viable.

I want to diferentiate between viable and profitable.

When leveling characters, I tend to put them in full sets of crafted gear about 4-5 times between levels 1 and 80. there are points in the leveling curve where I’ll go hit up the TP for a set of gear, or a weapon that this paticular character can’t craft, but in general, my characters do most of their leveling in crafted gear.

It is not the most efficiant use of $$ to gear a leveling character. It is, however, something that I can pour mats that I’ve gathered into (and I gathered the mats leveling, so… not really going out of my way.) Now, I won’t say that I run perfect stats while leveling, but I’ve never seen the point of sweating stats while leveling anyway… I worry about stats at 80, while leveling, if I have 2 parts Pillaging gear, 2 parts Clerics gear and 2 parts Valkyrie gear…. I don’t really care, the gear is getting replaced in a few hours of game play anyway.

It becomes more viable when it’s used to selectively replace gear that’s not on par with gear you’re replacing through drops / quest rewards.

As to gathering mats through ‘normal’ game play…. I will agree that there are a few tiers that are rough… I have yet to find the ideal way to gather t2 or t4 mats…. t1s I get chaining events in queensdale (usually done for the daily), and t3 mats I tend to chain centaur events for (hrathi, again, for daily), t5 you can collect chaining events in Orr…. still don’t have a good spot to work t2 or t4 mats….

I think crafting for leveling gear is most viable for players who prefer to avoid the TP and be ‘self sufficient.’ I’ve got a few of those types in my guild that don’t feel they have ‘earned’ an accomplishment if they have to use the TP to acquire something. Crafting is great for them. If it’s not for you, the TP, Dungeons, and Karma Vendors provide an alternative to gear your character while leveling.

Other than specialty recipes only available from RNG, why is there demand for crafted exotics, other than to throw in the Mystic Toilet? If I need an exotic, I craft it (once I have acquired the materials somehow). Are there really that many players who do not bother to level up their crafting?

I would like a full set of exotic weapons for all of my characters, but I just don’t have the money/ectos.

Elric Of Melnibone.4781:

Other than specialty recipes only available from RNG, why is there demand for crafted exotics, other than to throw in the Mystic Toilet? If I need an exotic, I craft it (once I have acquired the materials somehow). Are there really that many players who do not bother to level up their crafting?

I would like a full set of exotic weapons for all of my characters, but I just don’t have the money/ectos.

You know what I wonder? Why did I manage to make money last night selling exotic jewelry when people can acquire Ascended jewelry… I’ll give you my thoughts:

1) People have bought into the idea that crafting is a waste of time, or a poor investment, etc, and don’t level crafting because they think the TP is a better place to get gear
2) People shy away from salvaging rare drops for ecto because they think they can get more $$ for selling the rares than the resultant ecto is worth. (I usually salvage sub lvl 80 rares for ecto, and list the 80s, but that’s a game of playing with margins.)
3) People want exotics in specific stat combinations that they lack the t6 mats for and if they start going to the TP for t6 mats they start to feel daunted by everything they need to put together for the exotic.

The fact is, Exotics have one of the best profit margins in the game (though they have low velocity) because no one is spam crafting exotics to level crafting…. it keeps supply in a much tighter curve with demand, rather than producing supply that far exceeds demand

CassieGold.7460:

coppertopper.5620:

CassieGold.7460:

Here’s the question I would pose to you: If you could make one change to the state of crafting to make it better, what would it be?

1)increase material quantities required for crafted items about 4x to counter the glut and ease of gathering
2)give crafted items small bonuses to damage/defense – and this at all levels of crafted gear – tied in with the mystic forge somehow (combine 4 items to get a +1% to ‘X’ stat)
3)give crafters a bonus to return on salvaging items related to whatever craft they are currently spec’d in – leatherworkers get 2X return on med armor salvages, ect (with crafting discipline level affecting how high of an item level they can get this bonus on)

1) I don’t know if this would be a good thing or not. It creates a barrier to entry and makes the process of crafting and leveling crafting more difficult. People who start playing after a change of this nature will face a higher barrier to crafting and there will be some community divide focused around people who are already lvl 400 crafters and those who are still leveling it. A second major drawback I see here is that crafted goods could become less price competitive with alternative methods of getting similar items. If it took 20 globs of ecto to forge an exotic great sword, it would drive people to dungeons even more for exotic gear (or other sources of gear, karma, etc) Remember, crafted goods have to compete with Dungeon goods, karma goods, and loot drops for ease of acquisition.

Good point – exotics do not need the 4X increase in ectos.

CassieGold.7460:

2) I think Arena-Net would not go this direction because it’s contrary to their goal of providing even statistical platforms across all areas of the game. If a crafted weapon could be statistically better than a dungeon weapon, that would cause a disconnect in some fundamental design platforms.

Something people have advocated for in this vein before (and maybe in this thread now that I think about it, but I’m being lazy and not re-reading the whole thing) is the ability to create different stat combinations than are already available. From an A-net prospective, this makes game balance more difficult as it adds complexity to the system. If you look at the changes from GW1 to GW2, you can see Isaiah’s strong hand in simplifying the mechanics surrounding balance.

Yep thats why I said “small bonuses” ; ) And this game is not GW1, not even close. They have already introduced power creep with ascended gear. Fixing crafting begins with making crafted gear valuable to players, which it is not today as the cost of a full set of exotics on the TP show (cost to mfg = TP price, excluding jewelery which is just harder to get drops of, which is how exotic armor should be so that crafters are seen as valuable!!!!!!!!).

CassieGold.7460:

3) If crafters had a bonus to salvaging, it would up the rate at which raw materials enter the market, which would reduce the cost of crafted goods, and put crafting in a worse position now. While some people would mule weapons to a weaponsmith character for salvage, just to get the extra bit, most people would find it inconvenient to do so, and would leave a craft that they never otherwise used, but garnered the highest return on salvage as their assigned crafting profession.

The glut of raw materials in the game is a huge contributor to the current crafting market yes. That is why suggestion #1 and #3 have to be implemented together. But generally speaking the still very small return on salvaging, even if crafters got 2x the return, is not going to be that big of a deal as you only have 2 crafts on each character – its not like all your drops are going to be related to those disciplines.

And I have to tell you – you are getting off topic with constantly stating ‘last nite i made money on the TP for selling this piece of jewelery’. You are playing the TP, and that has very little to do with the state of crafting in GW2. The point is crafting is broken in this game – how do we fix it?

I’ll drop the topic of crafting being profitable, I think, at this point, it’s a dead horse.

I’m going to be snide for a moment and distill some of the suggestions down to the following :

Crafting would better if it were difficult enough (arduous enough) to discourage the average player from being able to craft, reducing the population of people willing / able to craft, and there by creating a market opportunity.

To me, that’s what arguments distill down to.

If you increase material cost to craft, you increase the ‘grind / farm’ time required to collect base mats, which discourages the more casual gamer from bothering, they’ll just sell mats to people willing to craft because they never have enough….

If you increase scarcity of materials, making base mats harder to obtain, you get the same result….

Alternately, crafting should produce better gear than is available elsewhere which will:

Devalue dungeon gear, karma gear, and loot drops
Encourage people to grind their own crafted gear to get “Best in Slot” gear (and if you don’t believe that, look what putting ascended gear in fractals did to everyone who needed ‘Best in Slot’ gear)

I would strongly suggest that the only 2 things crafting needs for improvement are:

1) The ability to produce best in slot gear to stay on par with other means of gear acquisition
2) More unique / rare craftable skins, which should be created more by crafters and less by the mystic forge.

I would love to see exotic skins available for 1k+ dungeon tokens that would allow someone who put in some sweat equity to craft something that people who didn’t do the leg work couldn’t craft… and that was bad kitten enough looking that people seriously wanted it. I would love it even more if that recipe required more tokens from that dungeon every time you crafted the item so that simply having the recipe wasn’t access to “turn key wealth.”

I would equally love to see recipes that required multiple crafting disciplines to produce an item. Gift of Wood + Ancient Staff Shaft + Ancient Staff Head + t6 fine mat = Something Cool…. now you have a reason to be both a Huntsman and an Artificer…..

As always, rotten tomatoes and rejoinders are welcome, I wear at all times a flame kittenant vest when posting on forums

CassieGold.7460:

1) The ability to produce best in slot gear to stay on par with other means of gear acquisition

The addition of Ascended to the list of filters in the crafting interface suggests this is already being worked on.

Khisanth.2948:

CassieGold.7460:

1) The ability to produce best in slot gear to stay on par with other means of gear acquisition

The addition of Ascended to the list of filters in the crafting interface suggests this is already being worked on.

I have no doubt. My only request would be to allow the crafting of ascended gear via a method that didn’t involve a vial of mist essence as that stuff hates me :P

Crafting is profitable at 80 with say Exotic gear, I can make about a gold or slightly less on an item I make with generally most of the mats minus ectos. The issue is selling the mats is far more profitable. I farm mats all the time, one of the things I love to farm drop 3 different tier 6 crafting items, and the tier 5 ones as well. The the odd other items, you can make a ton of money off tier 6 crafting items that are not bones. I make more money by selling the mats and buying the items I want plain and simple. Now I have 2 sets of completely exotic gear for my ranger 1 dps and 1 magic find, which I might add I hate I think magic find was the worst add to this game.

Mainly because why would I use anything other then my MF set other then to show off my dps I guess. I hate that I’m forced to use it based on the fact that I make more money with it.

Sry, but I have to disagree.

For work reasons I couldnt play the game on the first 3 months after release, so I only recently started lvling up my crafters (and seems I lost great opportunities with this). I had looked into crafting a lot during betas, but had no idea how the market was by now.

In beta I loved the craft system, as it was not too time consuming or grindy like other mmos.

Yes, at first I was thinking like you. Crafting would be pointless and not profitable. But I was wrong.
The guides in Saladon.net are a good source to check how much stuff you need to get to the next tier, but the prices are very much wrong.

The last crafter I’ve leveled was my tailor and from lvl ~100 to 400 I made 5g with it (thats not taking into account the stuff I did at 400).
You will need some upfront cash to start, but its nothing you cant get by a single set of exp (full paths) dungeon runs.

The thing you gotta understand is that you will need to study the market. You wont have a profit making anything you want. You might have to cover the costs of the earlier tier (blue itens) with the profit from later tier (green/yellows) and you will need to be patient with buy-orders and selling lists.

Also, the addition of karma jugs made it possible to have craft alts. I transfered all my jugs to crafting alts so they can get the recipes and mats they need.

If you have a constant supply of basic materials (main or alts) its even better!!

So crafting can be profitable, but not just by doing standart itens. Like many things in this game, to be actually good at it you need to put some extra though and effort on it. Or you can just use it to make your gear cheaper…

tl:dr: I used to think crafting was bad, after I started looking deeper into it, I found you can actually get profits if you think a bit harder and now I like crafting.

Personally, Ill be really interested in the next MMO that makes crafting unique for each individual account and by this providing a way to make a profit in the TP. Ive made profit from crafting on one occasion just by accident when I stumbled upon a chef food recipe that I randomly did a check on and realised the cost to purchase the items to make the recipe was less than what it was to craft and sell it. I sold about 780 from memory and made a small amount of copper per recipe after tax. But what I want is for my crafting to be unique, or very limited, to the point where people want to purchase my crafting output on the TP.

sostronk.8167:

Personally, Ill be really interested in the next MMO that makes crafting unique for each individual account and by this providing a way to make a profit in the TP. Ive made profit from crafting on one occasion just by accident when I stumbled upon a chef food recipe that I randomly did a check on and realised the cost to purchase the items to make the recipe was less than what it was to craft and sell it. I sold about 780 from memory and made a small amount of copper per recipe after tax. But what I want is for my crafting to be unique, or very limited, to the point where people want to purchase my crafting output on the TP.

The only place I can think where this holds true is in a system like Second Life where you can actually work at a mesh / texture level to produce a unique item. In a game with millions of players, what kind of system would allow you to produce a unique item without giving you access to the ability to create custom skins / meshes?

Don’t get me wrong, with the right toolkit (similar to TorchEd for Torchlight1) for rigging particle effects, and the ability to import a mesh from my modeling program of choice (yes, I still use Hexagon because I got it for an insanely low price,) along with textures painted in my texturing program of choice (photoshop, because I’m too cheap to buy z-brush) …. Yeah, I could “craft” some bad kitten items.

But that’s an entirely different skill set from what most people are talking about in terms of crafting in MMOs. So I would ask: How would you change the crafting system to allow for ‘unique’ items to occur?