Guild Wars 2

These Kiel propagandists have lost their minds.

The Black Lion Trading Company works hard to construct keys for chests found out in the world, for very little profit.

Yet here we have people complaining about what they find in the boxes that those keys open. Evon has no control what you find in boxes found at the bottom of the sea or inside a volcano.

You think Evon personally goes around handing boxes to Skelk, or chucking them inside of Orrian horrors just so you’ll buy keys? Ridiculous.

It’s time to bring sense back to this debate. If you don’t want keys then don’t buy them, but considering how many unopenable boxes there are sitting on the Trading Post it’s clear that Evon is providing a needed service to greater Tyria.

Imagine if the BLTC decided to halt production of keys, we’d be drowning in unopenable boxes. I don’t see anyone else working on this problem.

Anet makes BLC’s and BLK’s! Evon is sells them in game.

The BLT has sold RNG boxes such as Rich Dragon Coffers and Southsun Crates. Lets not forget that!

RNG? Death to Evon!!!!!

Ursan.7846:

The BLT has sold RNG boxes such as Rich Dragon Coffers and Southsun Crates. Lets not forget that!

Yes, and the Southsun Crates were shipped in from Southsun, most likely originating from Kiel or one of her cronies. And the Dragon Coffers were provided by the Lion’s Arch Council.

Evon just runs the marketplace, he isn’t responsible for the items listed within.

Not to mention that Evon isn’t forcing anyone to hand their gold over to him! He’s just a Charr providing goods and services that good Tyrian adventurers may or may not choose to purchase. Saying voting against him is a protest vote against RNG is just silly! Evon losing the election will not make the RNG boxes go away! All it will do is take away your chance to witness an epic god vs god battle that changed the face of Tyria forever!!!!

Beside which a vote for Evon is a vote for cats! Everybody loves cats!

Tinni.4351:

Not to mention that Evon isn’t forcing anyone to hand their gold over to him! He’s just a Charr providing goods and services that good Tyrian adventurers may or may not choose to purchase. Saying voting against him is a protest vote against RNG is just silly! Evon losing the election will not make the RNG boxes go away! All it will do is take away your chance to witness an epic god vs god battle that changed the face of Tyria forever!!!!

Beside which a vote for Evon is a vote for cats! Everybody loves cats!

You’re right. It won’t take Evon out or remove the RNG boxes. But it will make our opinion of the practice very clear to ANet. Which we should all do.

SynfulChaot.3169:

You’re right. It won’t take Evon out or remove the RNG boxes. But it will make our opinion of the practice very clear to ANet. Which we should all do.

They already know what we think about RNG.

Mathog.3157:

SynfulChaot.3169:

You’re right. It won’t take Evon out or remove the RNG boxes. But it will make our opinion of the practice very clear to ANet. Which we should all do.

They already know what we think about RNG.

Never hurts to make it perfectly clear.

But it does seem like they are starting to. Nothing in this stuff so far that is real-money RNG gated. I hope it stays that way.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Never hurts to make it perfectly clear.

But it does seem like they are starting to. Nothing in this stuff so far that is real-money RNG gated. I hope it stays that way.

Evon stands for commerce, if you want to send a message to the Gods then make it the right one.

Tell them a true man works for his reward.
Tell them they expect to get out what they put in.
Tell them each individual is in charge of their own destiny.

Vote for Evon. Vote for commerce. Vote for the future of Lion’s Arch.

Do not throw your vote away on Kiel, who sits atop her throne of gold from her Sunshore Supply Crate scam. Down with RNG, down with Kiel.

Buying RNG chests is a choice. I might not make that choice but I will defend your right to make it. If you vote against Evon you vote against freedom.

Vote Evon for a free Tyria.

All that needs to happen is for a large shipment of boxes going through the Shiverpeaks to have a ‘accident’, and the rest is history.

#TeamKiel

Pfft, what a cheap product. A key you can only use once, who has heard of something like that? Sounds like trickery, not honest hard work.

Convincing the asura to lower the WP prices – now that’s a skilled politician.

Rouven.7409:

Pfft, what a cheap product. A key you can only use once, who has heard of something like that? Sounds like trickery, not honest hard work.

Convincing the asura to lower the WP prices – now that’s a skilled politician.

Another example of Kiel’s and Magnus’ political savvy, which could be turned against threats to Lion’s Arch and Tyria itself in a moment.

#TeamKiel

The OP is wrong here.

They’re called Black Lion Chests remember? Evon’s company does, in fact, make them. Do you honestly believe he’s not so devious as to seed those chests throughout Tyria for no other reason than to sell the matching keys?

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Iarkrad.8415:

A vote for Evon is a vote for RNG!

RNG is our friend, so your statement is OK.

ROFL

Risingashes.8694:

Tell them a true man works for his reward.

You may want to tell that to Evon as well. He doesn’t seem to be doing much work sitting there making money from our work with his transaction fees.

Risingashes.8694:

Do not throw your vote away on Kiel, who sits atop her throne of gold from her Sunshore Supply Crate scam. Down with RNG, down with Kiel.

Because everyone knows that it was Kiel that made money off of the Supply Crates and not Evon. /sarcasm

Oh. Right. They were bought in the Black Lion Trading Post for gems. Meaning that Evon made the money. That would mean the Evon perpetrated the Southsun Supply Crate scam. Which he then continued with the Dragon’s Jade Claim Ticket in Rich Dragon Coffers.

Evon is the perpetrator of RNG, not Kiel. A vote for Kiel is a vote against RNG.

SynfulChaot.3169:

You may want to tell that to Evon as well. He doesn’t seem to be doing much work sitting there making money from our work with his transaction fees.

He co-founded a massive world-wide company through which players can access any market, at any time. If that’s not hard work, I don’t know what is! Think of all the effort saved due to logistical efficiencies for the player! And think of the great system he created and implemented in order to combat inflation, the bane of all economies! The transaction fee is a small price to pay in order (which you only pay if you’re a seller) to have unlimited access to the world-wide market.

Risingashes.8694:

Ursan.7846:

The BLT has sold RNG boxes such as Rich Dragon Coffers and Southsun Crates. Lets not forget that!

Yes, and the Southsun Crates were shipped in from Southsun, most likely originating from Kiel or one of her cronies. And the Dragon Coffers were provided by the Lion’s Arch Council.

Evon just runs the marketplace, he isn’t responsible for the items listed within.

I’m not RPing when I say vote against RNG. This is a to tell Anet we hate RNG skins in the gem store. Evon is just a NPC. But anet made him a symbol for RNG chests for sale.

RNG is ok in other parts of the game but not to sell skins.

inazuma.7021:

The OP is wrong here.

They’re called Black Lion Chests remember? Evon’s company does, in fact, make them. Do you honestly believe he’s not so devious as to seed those chests throughout Tyria for no other reason than to sell the matching keys?

This man has a point!

Risingashes.8694:

You think Evon personally goes around handing boxes to Skelk, or chucking them inside of Orrian horrors just so you’ll buy keys? Ridiculous.

It is not ridiculous, it is fiendishly clever!

Just think about it. Simply place an employee in map zone, and place a heart on the map at his location (who do you think sells the maps!?). Then have the employee instruct these would-be adventurers to deliver these boxes to the various creatures in the area (call them bombs, or refuge supplies, or spy kits, or scientific experiments). Then when other adventures “stumble” into the boxes, you are there ready and waiting to “help.”

titanlectro.5029:

inazuma.7021:

The OP is wrong here.

They’re called Black Lion Chests remember? Evon’s company does, in fact, make them. Do you honestly believe he’s not so devious as to seed those chests throughout Tyria for no other reason than to sell the matching keys?

This man has a point!

Risingashes.8694:

You think Evon personally goes around handing boxes to Skelk, or chucking them inside of Orrian horrors just so you’ll buy keys? Ridiculous.

It is not ridiculous, it is fiendishly clever!

Just think about it. Simply place an employee in map zone, and place a heart on the map at his location (who do you think sells the maps!?). Then have the employee instruct these would-be adventurers to deliver these boxes to the various creatures in the area (call them bombs, or refuge supplies, or spy kits, or scientific experiments). Then when other adventures “stumble” into the boxes, you are there ready and waiting to “help.”

It has been proven time and time again that Evon is a scam artist that has cheated and lied his way to the top of his pile. Now with promises of more cheaper gambling he tries to scheme his way to the top of the council. Are we really going to let this underhanded slimeball continue to lie and cheat us out of our time and money?

A Vote for Evon is a Vote for RNG!

Iarkrad.8415:

All that needs to happen is for a large shipment of boxes going through the Shiverpeaks to have a ‘accident’, and the rest is history.

#TeamKiel

I wish I was surprised that Kiel supporters would suggest yet more terrorist acts to secure her power grab. But this is now the world we live in, where terrorists have a real chance at a seat on the Lion’s Arch Council.

Rouven.7409:

Convincing the asura to lower the WP prices – now that’s a skilled politician.

The real question is what did Kiel give up to the Asuras in order to get this deal? It’s well known Asurans are proud of their ability to never give up something for nothing. How many of our children’s futures have they sacrificed, either out of the communal purse or through secret backdoor deals, to get this temporary bribe?

Personally I think the election should be decided by Lion’s Archians, not by foreign interests. It’s time to get foreign money out of politics. A vote for Evon is a vote against foreign influence in Lion’s Arch. A vote for Evon is a vote against using public funds for personal gain.

SynfulChaot.3169:

[…..]

Because everyone knows that it was Kiel that made money off of the Supply Crates and not Evon. /sarcasm

Oh. Right. They were bought in the Black Lion Trading Post for gems. Meaning that Evon made the money. That would mean the Evon perpetrated the Southsun Supply Crate scam. Which he then continued with the Dragon’s Jade Claim Ticket in Rich Dragon Coffers.

Evon is the perpetrator of RNG, not Kiel. A vote for Kiel is a vote against RNG.

Or, rather more likely, Kiel had stacks and stacks of crates loaded onto ships and uderhandedly sent to the BLTC by Lionguard ships, while the players were off busy doing the work of real heroes and defeating the Legendary Karka Queen. In doing this, it would both allow her to do her dirty work while deflecting your unsuspecting blame to Evon, who she thought she could trust to shut up about his sources.

Anyway, you can tell yourself that a vote for Kiel is a vote against RNG as much as you want, but I’ll say this: Arenanet reads these forums. they know all too well how much we hate RNG. But they can’t do anything. They are told to put RNG in by NCsoft. The publisher controls the developers, not the other way around. If you want to tell yourself, still, that Evon represents RNG kittenboxes, I’ll remind you he also stands for everything good about the BLTC:

*No more WTT or WTS or WTB
*Free commerce
*Player trade
*Global connections
*Good economics
*No scams

Traders, rally around Evon!
People who do not want their credit stolen, rally around Evon!
#TeamGnashblade

DeShadowWolf.6854:

Or, rather more likely, Kiel had stacks and stacks of crates loaded onto ships and uderhandedly sent to the BLTC by Lionguard ships, while the players were off busy doing the work of real heroes and defeating the Legendary Karka Queen. In doing this, it would both allow her to do her dirty work while deflecting your unsuspecting blame to Evon, who she thought she could trust to shut up about his sources.

Pretty far reaching foundless conspiracy theory that doesn’t mesh with the established character personality there.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Tinni.4351:

Not to mention that Evon isn’t forcing anyone to hand their gold over to him! He’s just a Charr providing goods and services that good Tyrian adventurers may or may not choose to purchase. Saying voting against him is a protest vote against RNG is just silly! Evon losing the election will not make the RNG boxes go away! All it will do is take away your chance to witness an epic god vs god battle that changed the face of Tyria forever!!!!

Beside which a vote for Evon is a vote for cats! Everybody loves cats!

You’re right. It won’t take Evon out or remove the RNG boxes. But it will make our opinion of the practice very clear to ANet. Which we should all do.

Our? You mean yours! I am sorry but I don’t have any problems with RNG. The only message I want to send Anet is simply: the battle of gods vs god better be EPIC!

Tinni.4351:

SynfulChaot.3169:

You’re right. It won’t take Evon out or remove the RNG boxes. But it will make our opinion of the practice very clear to ANet. Which we should all do.

Our? You mean yours! I am sorry but I don’t have any problems with RNG. The only message I want to send Anet is simply: the battle of gods vs god better be EPIC!

I’m far from the only one that finds gem store RNG lottery unacceptable. If you find it acceptable, then I feel sorry for you and wish you would stop enabling practices that are bad for the industry.

As far as fractals go, I would prefer Abbadon as well. I just don’t think I can vote for Evon.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Tinni.4351:

SynfulChaot.3169:

You’re right. It won’t take Evon out or remove the RNG boxes. But it will make our opinion of the practice very clear to ANet. Which we should all do.

Our? You mean yours! I am sorry but I don’t have any problems with RNG. The only message I want to send Anet is simply: the battle of gods vs god better be EPIC!

I’m far from the only one that finds gem store RNG lottery unacceptable. If you find it acceptable, then I feel sorry for you and wish you would stop enabling practices that are bad for the industry.

As far as fractals go, I would prefer Abbadon as well. I just don’t think I can vote for Evon.

Why is it that you anti-RNG folks have such holier then thou attitude when it comes to those of us have no problems buying those boxes? I mean, I don’t know about the rest of the world, but the National Lottery here in the UK does some great work. Lots of arts and research funding, funding to support the preservation of historical sites, museums etc. Likewise, the RNG system supports Anet and thus Tyria.

What harm is there of spending, say, the $20 you would normally spend on monthly fees on keys? I mean, $20 is 1600 gems that equal 19 keys since you can get the 5 keys for 450 gems deal and spend the remaining 250 gems on buying two individual keys. Granted it is a lottery but that’s what’s great about the getting some special out of the chest. You “win” something.

I doubt it hurts the industry. If anything, it’s allowed games like Guild Wars 2 to exist. I mean, nobody is forcing you to play the game of chance if you don’t want to but surely you are going too far when you preach to others how they can spend their hard earned cash. That’s just rude!

SynfulChaot.3169:

practices that are bad for the industry.

What? What are you basing this off from?

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Extraordinary_claims_require_extraordinary_evidence

SynfulChaot.3169:

I’m far from the only one that finds gem store RNG lottery unacceptable. If you find it acceptable, then I feel sorry for you and wish you would stop enabling practices that are bad for the industry.

As far as fractals go, I would prefer Abbadon as well. I just don’t think I can vote for Evon.

I also hate RNG which is why I’m voting for Evon.

Why would you blame a marketplace for the items contained therein? Do you really want market owners filtering the goods offered by vendors within that marketplace- effectively banning the sale of items based upon their whim or fancy?

Personally I respect a business owner who understands the value of freedom, even if Evon himself detests RNG items just as much as the rest of us.

Blame the people who create these insidious items, such as Kiel with her underhanded Southsun Crates, or Magnus with his Dragon Coffers. But not those who simply offer these items to willing buyers, don’t let reputable honest business men be caught up in the dastardly deeds of the corrupt Kiel and Magnus.

Tinni.4351:

Why is it that you anti-RNG folks have such holier then thou attitude when it comes to those of us have no problems buying those boxes? I mean, I don’t know about the rest of the world, but the National Lottery here in the UK does some great work. Lots of arts and research funding, funding to support the preservation of historical sites, museums etc. Likewise, the RNG system supports Anet and thus Tyria.

What harm is there of spending, say, the $20 you would normally spend on monthly fees on keys? I mean, $20 is 1600 gems that equal 19 keys since you can get the 5 keys for 450 gems deal and spend the remaining 250 gems on buying two individual keys. Granted it is a lottery but that’s what’s great about the getting some special out of the chest. You “win” something.

I doubt it hurts the industry. If anything, it’s allowed games like Guild Wars 2 to exist. I mean, nobody is forcing you to play the game of chance if you don’t want to but surely you are going too far when you preach to others how they can spend their hard earned cash. That’s just rude!

When I spend money, I want to spend it on items. Not on a miniscule chance at said items. I spend money on guaranteed items. ANet still benefits that way. But in no way does RNG boxes benefit anyone but ANet.

You spend your money as you wish, but those of us that are opposed to gambling dislike RNG gating when it costs us real money. RNG in game is mostly acceptable. Real money RNG is not.

Risingashes.8694:

I also hate RNG which is why I’m voting for Evon.

Why would you blame a marketplace for the items contained therein? Do you really want market owners filtering the goods offered by vendors within that marketplace- effectively banning the sale of items based upon their whim or fancy?

Personally I respect a business owner who understands the value of freedom, even if Evon himself detests RNG items just as much as the rest of us.

Blame the people who create these insidious items, such as Kiel with her underhanded Southsun Crates, or Magnus with his Dragon Coffers. But not those who simply offer these items to willing buyers, don’t let reputable honest business men be caught up in the dastardly deeds of the corrupt Kiel and Magnus.

Items are sold for gems in Evon’s store. Therefore the onus is on him. His RNG, his fault.

SynfulChaot.3169:

When I spend money, I want to spend it on items. Not on a miniscule chance at said items. I spend money on guaranteed items. ANet still benefits that way. But in no way does RNG boxes benefit anyone but ANet.

That’s how you spend your money. However, there is a quite a significant portion of the population who are willing to spend their money on a chance on certain rewards. i.e. massive popularity of lotteries and casinoes.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Items are sold for gems in Evon’s store. Therefore the onus is on him. His RNG, his fault.

Well if you want one person determining what you can buy and what you cannot, then I’m sure ‘Captain’ Kiel will quickly make that a reality.

As for Evon, he believes in the freedom of the marketplace.

When you’re lining up at the Kielian Trading Post for your daily portion of bread crumbs don’t come crying to us.

Ursan.7846:

SynfulChaot.3169:

When I spend money, I want to spend it on items. Not on a miniscule chance at said items. I spend money on guaranteed items. ANet still benefits that way. But in no way does RNG boxes benefit anyone but ANet.

That’s how you spend your money. However, there is a quite a significant portion of the population who are willing to spend their money on a chance on certain rewards. i.e. massive popularity of lotteries and casinoes.

That is fine. But locking time-limited content solely behind a pay lottery only benefits ANet. Yes, some are willing to flush their money away. Many of us are smarter than that with our money.

If I wanted to waste my money, I’d give it to someone who needs it more than I. I won’t waste my money on a small chance to win. Because, as you should know, the house always wins. And we ain’t the house.

Risingashes.8694:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Items are sold for gems in Evon’s store. Therefore the onus is on him. His RNG, his fault.

Well if you want one person determining what you can buy and what you cannot, then I’m sure ‘Captain’ Kiel will quickly make that a reality.

As for Evon, he believes in the freedom of the marketplace.

When you’re lining up at the Kielian Trading Post for your daily portion of bread crumbs don’t come crying to us.

Lovely straw man there.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Yes, some are willing to flush their money away. Many of us are smarter than that with our money.

I don’t understand. Why the insistence on belittling people who don’t think the way you do? There are many people who, understanding the small chances of success, purchase a chance. Because they don’t mind investing a small amount (relative to the actual value of the item) and hoping to obtain it through luck.

Now I have to make it clear though, what is unacceptable is account-bound RNG items from Anet, such as the Fused/Sclerite/Jade skins.

RNG itself though? It’s perfectly fine. It allows those who don’t want to pay the full value to pay very little relative to the value of the reward for a chance at it. Then through the marketplace, it can be valued appropriately based on its rarity and player supply/demand, and players who are willing to pay the full value can purchase it from there (i.e monocles, Molten back/mini, etc.)

SynfulChaot.3169:

Lovely straw man there.

((You do get that bringing logical fallacies in to a roleplaying argument is like bringing chainmail to a plastic lightsaber battle, right? Sure you’re invincible but no one was trying to break skin to begin with and now no one can have any fun.))

Ursan.7846:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Yes, some are willing to flush their money away. Many of us are smarter than that with our money.

I don’t understand. Why the insistence on belittling people who don’t think the way you do? There are many people who, understanding the small chances of success, purchase a chance. Because they don’t mind investing a small amount (relative to the actual value of the item) and hoping to obtain it through luck.

Now I have to make it clear though, what is unacceptable is account-bound RNG items from Anet, such as the Fused/Sclerite/Jade skins.

RNG itself though? It’s perfectly fine. It allows those who don’t want to pay the full value to pay very little relative to the value of the reward for a chance at it. Then through the marketplace, it can be valued appropriately based on its rarity and player supply/demand, and players who are willing to pay the full value can purchase it from there (i.e monocles, Molten back/mini, etc.)

Look at the pure odds to get the item that you are striving for and multiply the cost of a key (or box) by the number of times needed to hypothetically reach 100%. That cost is far, far greater than if they sold it directly at a reasonable price. You know, the prices they have sold plenty of other skins at.

And I agree that were you to be able to sell them then my main complaints would go away. My problem is solely that the only way to attain these items is by real money pay lottery.

Risingashes.8694:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Lovely straw man there.

((You do get that bringing logical fallacies in to a roleplaying argument is like bringing chainmail to a plastic lightsaber battle, right? Sure you’re invincible but no one was trying to break skin to begin with and now no one can have any fun.))

Arguments involving blatant logical fallacies are not arguments nor are they fun. They are simply a waste of my time.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Arguments involving blatant logical fallacies are not arguments nor are they fun. They are simply a waste of my time.

((Of course they’re fun. Each person makes increasingly fervent claims demonising the other side. It involves creativity and improvisation.

What isn’t fun is you making 1 line statements and pretending you’re a bastion of logical reasoning. How could I possibly of responded to ‘Evon runs a marketplace, therefore it’s his fault’ when my entire post was specifically addressing that argument. Restating something isn’t an appropriate response to a counter-point even in actual arguments, and in pretend arguments it’s additionally lazy.))

SynfulChaot.3169:

Look at the pure odds to get the item that you are striving for and multiply the cost of a key (or box) by the number of times needed to hypothetically reach 100%. That cost is far, far greater than if they sold it directly at a reasonable price. You know, the prices they have sold plenty of other skins at.

I’m going to state this bluntly, but I don’t think you understand statistics.

The number of boxes you need to open to theoretically reach 100% is infinite. That is how probability works.

However, you can still calculate an expected value of obtaining at least one item, assuming you know the actual odds. And then you can compare this expected value to your own personal threshold to make a decision. That other skins they sold for a fixed price is irrevelent (Does the fact that you can get exotic armor for 2G make cultural armor unreasonable? No.). It’s how you individually value this unique item, and how much you’re willing to pay for that plays into a person’s decision. Not a comparison to other items in the same category. If a person calculates the expected value of obtaining a rare molten skin is $200 and he’s willing to spend it, then that is his right.

That being said, however, making skins obtainable through pure RNG is quite silly because it takes away options from players who are RNG-averse. More options are ALWAYS better.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Arguments involving blatant logical fallacies are not arguments nor are they fun. They are simply a waste of my time.

This is an highly amusing statement as your own posts are filled with fallacies such as Unsupported Assertions (RNG = bad for industry. Proof?), Generalizations (All players hate RNG) and the argument from fallacy (pointing your opponent’s fallacy).

Risingashes.8694:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Arguments involving blatant logical fallacies are not arguments nor are they fun. They are simply a waste of my time.

((Of course they’re fun. Each person makes increasingly fervent claims demonising the other side. It involves creativity and improvisation.

What isn’t fun is you making 1 line statements and pretending you’re a bastion of logical reasoning. How could I possibly of responded to ‘Evon runs a marketplace, therefore it’s his fault’ when my entire post was specifically addressing that argument. Restating something isn’t an appropriate response to a counter-point even in actual arguments, and in pretend arguments it’s additionally lazy.))

You find them fun. Fine. I don’t. I prefer actual conversation instead of the puffery and embellishments. I hate it in actual campaigning IRL and I hate it here as well. Especially when it conflicts with logic and lore.

Sorry if you think I’m a killjoy, but that’s my opinion on it.

Ursan.7846:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Look at the pure odds to get the item that you are striving for and multiply the cost of a key (or box) by the number of times needed to hypothetically reach 100%. That cost is far, far greater than if they sold it directly at a reasonable price. You know, the prices they have sold plenty of other skins at.

I’m going to state this bluntly, but I don’t think you understand statistics.

The number of boxes you need to open to theoretically reach 100% is infinite. That is how probability works.

However, you can still calculate an expected value of obtaining at least one item, assuming you know the actual odds. And then you can compare this expected value to your own personal threshold to make a decision. That other skins they sold for a fixed price is irrevelent (Does the fact that you can get exotic armor for 2G make cultural armor unreasonable? No.). It’s how you individually value this unique item, and how much you’re willing to pay for that plays into a person’s decision. Not a comparison to other items in the same category. If a person calculates the expected value of obtaining a rare molten skin is $200 and he’s willing to spend it, then that is his right.

No. I do understand statistics. Thus my use of ‘hypothetically’. But if you calculated that expected value, those items would be priced exponentially higher than anything else on the gem store. That is the problem. The prices are absurd and require gambling with real money.

Ursan.7846:

That being said, however, making skins obtainable through pure RNG is quite silly because it takes away options from players who are RNG-averse. More options are ALWAYS better.

With this I agree. If you could buy directly or gamble for the skins, then this conversation would be moot. Some would still gamble. Those that are RNG averse would buy direct. All would be happy.

SynfulChaot.3169:

No. I do understand statistics. Thus my use of ‘hypothetically’.

To hypothesize 100% in statistics for situations in which there is no 100% chance earns a no-no from me. (It’s a completely pointless thing to bring up, because it’s infinite, hypothetically, literally, theoretically.)

SynfulChaot.3169:

But if you calculated that expected value, those items would be priced exponentially higher than anything else on the gem store. That is the problem. The prices are absurd and require gambling with real money.

You must not have read the entirety of my post. You can’t compare the calculated value with anything else in the gem store, because the reward is a unique thing which individuals place unique value onto it. Some individuals will place very high value on this object, and so naturally they will be willing to spend up to their threshold in order to obtain it, because they value it that much.

This is a very similar logic to the whole achievement point discussion we’ve had. Some individuals place a great deal of value in completing these achievement, thus they will undertake tasks they abhor in order to achieve them. Do you make fun of these people by telling them “it’s not worth it?” No, you respect their individual choice and their individual valuation of certain rewards.

This is why people gamble. They sincerely think it’s worth it, and it’s rude to belittle the fact that they value the reward so much.

EDIT: Of course, as you said this whole point is really moot if RNG items aren’t account bound since the market will set a value to the item and the player doesn’t have to. But for account bound RNG items, yes, it will be ultimately be up to the individual to assign these items a value.

Ursan.7846:

SynfulChaot.3169:

No. I do understand statistics. Thus my use of ‘hypothetically’.

To hypothesize 100% in statistics for situations in which there is no 100% chance earns a no-no from me. (It’s a completely pointless thing to bring up, because it’s infinite, hypothetically, literally, theoretically.)

Yet to determine hypothetical average item value, it is necessary. And that is what I was doing.

Ursan.7846:

SynfulChaot.3169:

But if you calculated that expected value, those items would be priced exponentially higher than anything else on the gem store. That is the problem. The prices are absurd and require gambling with real money.

You must not have read the entirety of my post. You can’t compare the calculated value with anything else in the gem store, because the reward is a unique thing which individuals place unique value onto it. Some individuals will place very high value on this object, and so naturally they will be willing to spend up to their threshold in order to obtain it, because they value it that much.

It should be no more ‘unique’ than any other gem store skin. What makes them differ from the Wintersday gem store weapon skins or the Aetherblade weapons? Nothing but the fact that ANet decided to RNG gate them. Completely unnecessary.

Ursan.7846:

This is a very similar logic to the whole achievement point discussion we’ve had. Some individuals place a great deal of value in completing these achievement, thus they will undertake tasks they abhor in order to achieve them. Do you make fun of these people by telling them “it’s not worth it?” No, you respect their individual choice and their individual valuation of certain rewards.

This is why people gamble. They sincerely think it’s worth it, and it’s rude to belittle the fact that they value the reward so much.

People can spend their money how they like. But real money RNG gating temporary content is just plain bad for anyone but ANet’s pocketbook.

Ursan.7846:

EDIT: Of course, as you said this whole point is really moot if RNG items aren’t account bound since the market will set a value to the item and the player doesn’t have to. But for account bound RNG items, yes, it will be ultimately be up to the individual to assign these items a value.

And that I would not mind as much. It would give those that abhor RNG a chance to obtain the items without the gamble.

Still not as optimal as directly selling the skins, but it least it will reach a closer point of decency.

It’s a conspiracy!
C
O
N
….
spiracy.

I’m surprised some people haven’t mentioned this:

1. RNG boxes do nothing for Anet’s pocketbook directly. Nothing. Ncsoft controls Anet, not the other way around. NCsoft gets the money and can distribute it out among its other games (it is a Korean company, anyway.)
2. Nobody is forcing you to pay out of your personal money for RNG boxes. You don’t have to buy them, but then after you do, you complain on the forums about how Anet shouldn’t have RNG.

Traders, rally around Evon!
People who don’t like their credit stolen, rally around Evon!
#TeamGnashblade

SynfulChaot.3169:

It should be no more ‘unique’ than any other gem store skin. What makes them differ from the Wintersday gem store weapon skins or the Aetherblade weapons? Nothing but the fact that ANet decided to RNG gate them. Completely unnecessary.

I’m not sure I understand. It’s unique because it has a unique skin that’s different from Wintersday/Aetherblade weapons. That is the definition of the word unique. And when an unique item has only one unique method of obtaining it, a person must then judge how much he values the reward, and how much he’s willing to invest in the process. Both are completely subjective things and it’s rude to pretend you’re somehow “smarter” than some because their values differ from yours.

What would be funny if EVON in response to this makes an unbreakable BLT Key to recant the augment against him. Which then cause BLT chest to rise to 1g.

Ursan.7846:

SynfulChaot.3169:

It should be no more ‘unique’ than any other gem store skin. What makes them differ from the Wintersday gem store weapon skins or the Aetherblade weapons? Nothing but the fact that ANet decided to RNG gate them. Completely unnecessary.

I’m not sure I understand. It’s unique because it has a unique skin that’s different from Wintersday/Aetherblade weapons. That is the definition of the word unique. And when an unique item has only one unique method of obtaining it, a person must then judge how much he values the reward, and how much he’s willing to invest in the process. Both are completely subjective things and it’s rude to pretend you’re somehow “smarter” than some because their values differ from yours.

They’re all equally ‘unique’ from the perspective that they are all temporary content linked and only seemingly temporarily obtainable (jury’s still out on the Aetherblade armor). Making some that much more expensive to obtain, on average, is completely unnecessary when they all fill the same niche.

Yes, that view is subjective. As is yours. We can discuss the logic behind it all day, but when it comes to whether or not we think it is right all we can discuss is opinion, in which neither of us are objectively correct.

SynfulChaot.3169:

They’re all equally ‘unique’ from the perspective that they are all temporary content linked and only seemingly temporarily obtainable (jury’s still out on the Aetherblade armor). Making some that much more expensive to obtain, on average, is completely unnecessary when they all fill the same niche.

You continue to use words I use in a different context.

They have a unique skin. The fact that they are all temporary does not change the fact that their appearance are all unique. Some people value this unique appearance more highly than others, and justify their expenses due to it.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Yes, that view is subjective. As is yours. We can discuss the logic behind it all day, but when it comes to whether or not we think it is right all we can discuss is opinion, in which neither of us are objectively correct.

It is an objective fact that people who hold differing opinions than you exist, and it is my subjective opinion that your attempt to paint yourself as “smarter” than people with different opinions is rude and unnecessary.

Ursan.7846:

SynfulChaot.3169:

They’re all equally ‘unique’ from the perspective that they are all temporary content linked and only seemingly temporarily obtainable (jury’s still out on the Aetherblade armor). Making some that much more expensive to obtain, on average, is completely unnecessary when they all fill the same niche.

You continue to use words I use in a different context.

They have a unique skin. The fact that they are all temporary does not change the fact that their appearance are all unique. Some people value this unique appearance more highly than others, and justify their expenses due to it.

Still does not mean that gating them as such is right. I hold that it is not.

Ursan.7846:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Yes, that view is subjective. As is yours. We can discuss the logic behind it all day, but when it comes to whether or not we think it is right all we can discuss is opinion, in which neither of us are objectively correct.

It is an objective fact that people who hold differing opinions than you exist, and it is my subjective opinion that your attempt to paint yourself as “smarter” than people with different opinions is rude and unnecessary.

Et tu, Ursan. Et tu.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Still does not mean that gating them as such is right. I hold that it is not.

That’s not the point I’m trying to make, and you should realize this because I agreed with you that gating content through pure RNG is wrong. The whole point of the thread of conversation is to explain why exactly some people think it’s worth it to spend money on a chance at an item, and you shouldn’t belittle individual preferences and choices.

(In fact, this statement is a strawman since I in no way attempted to try to justify RNG gating in my posts)

SynfulChaot.3169:

Et tu, Ursan. Et tu.

I apologize, but I sincerely do not understand this. Are you honestly accusing me of the things I’m accusing you of? (Being rude by belittling people who hold different opinions from you). My core argument is the defence of subjectivity, how people make different choices because of their own individual valuations of things, and shouldn’t be made fun of because their choices somehow differ from yours.

SynfulChaot.3169:

If you find it acceptable, then I feel sorry for you

SynfulChaot.3169:

Yes, some are willing to flush their money away. Many of us are smarter than that with our money.