Guild Wars 2

Votes so far:

Kiel – 4,979,252 (52%)

Evon – 4,596,232 (48%)

Where are you getting these numbers from?

GW2 Facebook page. They updated it about an hour or so ago. They also made an update on Twitter.

Archon.6481:

Where are you getting these numbers from?

Guild Wars 2 Facebook.

Close race, so far. I’m glad it’s not a landslide either way. That’d be boring.

why do I have a feeling 80% of the ppl voting for kiel only votes for her for the cheaper waypoints?

RainbowSyrup.4130:

why do I have a feeling 80% of the ppl voting for kiel only votes for her for the cheaper waypoints?

More likely, the majority of people voting don’t use the site and have no idea what either is actually offering, and simply like the person they know and view as the “good guy”.

So we are now going to Facebook to find out what happens in-game? BaZynga!

inazuma.7021:

Close race, so far. I’m glad it’s not a landslide either way. That’d be boring.

Tbh it’s about what I expected, both have clear benefits.

That being said, now hopefully the tin foil hat conspiracy theorists can shut up about it being rigged for Evon.

Grimwolf.7163:

More likely, the majority of people voting don’t use the site and have no idea what either is actually offering, and simply like the person they know and view as the “good guy”.

The hardcore GW fans will just have to work that much harder.

Go team Gnashblade!

RainbowSyrup.4130:

why do I have a feeling 80% of the ppl voting for kiel only votes for her for the cheaper waypoints?

As if 80% of those voting for Evon are not voting for him only for the Abaddon thing?

Lucky.9421:

Grimwolf.7163:

More likely, the majority of people voting don’t use the site and have no idea what either is actually offering, and simply like the person they know and view as the “good guy”.

The hardcore GW fans will just have to work that much harder.

Go team Gnashblade!

A vote for Kiel means you don’t like GW? I dont understand why people whould be playing this game then.

Most Kiel supporters are uneducated, and are voting only for the pretty face. But worry not, this is far from over. Evon didn’t get to where he is by quitting. I’m sure he’ll be doing something interesting to spice up this race.

Good. Im going to add another 200 votes for Kiel this weekend.

No charrs in charge.

Venirto.4208:

Good. Im going to add another 200 votes for Kiel this weekend.

No charrs in charge.

You could have used that chance to spell it has charrge

But no, you had to go with charge

Shame upon your family!

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Most Kiel supporters are uneducated, and are voting only for the pretty face. But worry not, this is far from over. Evon didn’t get to where he is by quitting. I’m sure he’ll be doing something interesting to spice up this race.

Typical political attacks, you can’t actually find a fault in the opposing party so you just attack the individuals in it.

I don’t like Evon because he’s just greedy. You get a discount on black lion keys, which you buy from him in the first place. And why is a charr so interested in a human god anyway? The only charr I know that have anything to do with gods anymore are the flame legion, who try to kill everything.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Most Kiel supporters are uneducated, and are voting only for the pretty face. But worry not, this is far from over. Evon didn’t get to where he is by quitting. I’m sure he’ll be doing something interesting to spice up this race.

You want a pretty face? Check out Evon’s first mate. What a BABE.

Rainbow Sprint.3215:

Typical political attacks, you can’t actually find a fault in the opposing party so you just attack the individuals in it.

Rainbow Sprint.3215:

I don’t like Evon because he’s just greedy.

Uh…<_<

Rainbow Sprint.3215:

A vote for Kiel means you don’t like GW? I dont understand why people whould be playing this game then.

I didn’t say that. >__>

But definitely the Evon(Abbadon) supporters seem to be more from the GW1 ‘old guard’ who have been following the lore since many years ago. Except for good old Konig from guru. xD

One of the common mistakes I read is that people think this fractal will be the same fight as in Nightfall, when it is actually the cataclysmic battle that turned the Crystal Sea into the Crystal Desert 1000 years prior. That points to not really paying attention.

I don’t think more casual observers realize that the Abbadon fractal will require a new map and new enemies because of the nature of it, but if we get Thaumanova, we will likely tread through a mostly re-hashed map and fight copy-pasted enemies that we’ve already seen.

Of course some people understand all this and still like Kiel, and that is perfectly fine. It’s a democracy.. kinda. I voted 50 times xD

Ursan.7846:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Most Kiel supporters are uneducated, and are voting only for the pretty face. But worry not, this is far from over. Evon didn’t get to where he is by quitting. I’m sure he’ll be doing something interesting to spice up this race.

You want a pretty face? Check out Evon’s first mate. What a BABE.

Rainbow Sprint.3215:

Typical political attacks, you can’t actually find a fault in the opposing party so you just attack the individuals in it.

Rainbow Sprint.3215:

I don’t like Evon because he’s just greedy.

Uh…<_<

I explained why I think that, and again that was saying a fault with evon, not the players voting for Evon. Not liking Evon’s stance and mannerisms is a legitimate reason not to vote for him.

Rainbow Sprint.3215:

I explained why I think that, and again that was saying a fault with evon, not the players voting for Evon. Not liking Evon’s stance and mannerisms is a legitimate reason not to vote for him.

Explained or not, it’s still an attack on the integrity of an individual. Not liking his “mannerisms” and not voting for him is the exact same thing, I hope you realize. (Yes, Evon is a part of his own campaign.)

Ursan.7846:

Rainbow Sprint.3215:

I explained why I think that, and again that was saying a fault with evon, not the players voting for Evon. Not liking Evon’s stance and mannerisms is a legitimate reason not to vote for him.

Explained or not, it’s still an attack on the integrity of an individual. Not liking his “mannerisms” and not voting for him is the exact same thing, I hope you realize. (Yes, Evon is a part of his own campaign.)

I’m not saying everyone who supports Evon didn’t pass the second grade though. Evon’s principles are integral to his campaign. It’s completely different.

Ursan.7846:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Most Kiel supporters are uneducated, and are voting only for the pretty face. But worry not, this is far from over. Evon didn’t get to where he is by quitting. I’m sure he’ll be doing something interesting to spice up this race.

You want a pretty face? Check out Evon’s first mate. What a BABE.

Duly noted. Time to spread the word that a vote for Evon is a vote for a hot first mate!

I have not voted yet outside of 20 for each for the achievements, but am glad to see Kiel ahead in the polls.

Why? I already know what happened with Abbadon. There is only one possibility. I’d rather find out what happened with nuclear time/space alterations where there are infinite possibilities.

On a plus side it also shows a +1 against rng and that’s always a good thing.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Votes so far:

Kiel – 1,249,185 (52%)

Evon – 1,153,093 (48%)

While these early exit polls are not indicative of the final result, it doesn’t mean that Evon supporters are done. It just means we’ll be buying a lot more votes.

Please don’t bother. The winner has already been decided in advance so that the living story could be made. This was a clever tie in to make the players think they have a say, but I think most of us are smart enough to see through the illusion.

To give an example though I recently did my own test by standing there and asking people to link their support buttons, not the tokens but the actual buttons that show the vote. 1153 for gnashblade to 237 for kiel. Sure it’s only one server, over 1 hour so it’s not scientific at all. I know that, and yet I’ve not seen more than a few people that are actively support kiel over hours of play. The majority seem to get enough to get her achievement, and then that’s it.

Maybe Borlis Pass is just heavily leaning towards Evon Gnashblade, and the other servers are equally tilted in other directions. I think that it’s far more likely Anet has decided the winner in advance in order to keep their schedule for the living story.

^^^ I don’t think so. I believe they are being honest when they say they won’t start on the new fractal until votes are in.

Keep at it Evon fans!

Grimwolf.7163:

RainbowSyrup.4130:

why do I have a feeling 80% of the ppl voting for kiel only votes for her for the cheaper waypoints?

More likely, the majority of people voting don’t use the site and have no idea what either is actually offering, and simply like the person they know and view as the “good guy”.

A very sad truth and part of why waypoints should have never been allowed as a factor.

GSSBlunaspike.4153:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Votes so far:

Kiel – 1,249,185 (52%)

Evon – 1,153,093 (48%)

While these early exit polls are not indicative of the final result, it doesn’t mean that Evon supporters are done. It just means we’ll be buying a lot more votes.

Please don’t bother. The winner has already been decided in advance so that the living story could be made. This was a clever tie in to make the players think they have a say, but I think most of us are smart enough to see through the illusion.

To give an example though I recently did my own test by standing there and asking people to link their support buttons, not the tokens but the actual buttons that show the vote. 1153 for gnashblade to 237 for kiel. Sure it’s only one server, over 1 hour so it’s not scientific at all. I know that, and yet I’ve not seen more than a few people that are actively support kiel over hours of play. The majority seem to get enough to get her achievement, and then that’s it.

Maybe Borlis Pass is just heavily leaning towards Evon Gnashblade, and the other servers are equally tilted in other directions. I think that it’s far more likely Anet has decided the winner in advance in order to keep their schedule for the living story.

KorKor.9452:

Grimwolf.7163:

RainbowSyrup.4130:

why do I have a feeling 80% of the ppl voting for kiel only votes for her for the cheaper waypoints?

More likely, the majority of people voting don’t use the site and have no idea what either is actually offering, and simply like the person they know and view as the “good guy”.

A very sad truth and part of why waypoints should have never been allowed as a factor.

Speaking of which, they still never told us how much the price reduction is on either side yet huh?

Rainbow Sprint.3215:

Ursan.7846:

~snip~

I’m not saying everyone who supports Evon didn’t pass the second grade though. Evon’s principles are integral to his campaign. It’s completely different.

and

Rainbow Sprint.3215:

Typical political attacks, you can’t actually find a fault in the opposing party so you just attack the individuals in it.

You simply cannot argue that these do not directly contradict. Look who is making attacks on the individuals in the opposing party now! Seriously though.

Time to start using my 200 stack of support tokens.

There’d be a lot more votes if there was an incentive. I for example got 100 tokens from mostly doing the arena on day 1. Since I don’t need any more pins, why would I want to click 100 times to get 100 pins just to delete them, when I could just delete the tokens.

I vote for boobies.

But guys…it’s just a game

I threw a couple hundred in for Kiel yesterday, will do a couple hundred more tomorrow.

FB = DiaF

Grimwolf.7163:

RainbowSyrup.4130:

why do I have a feeling 80% of the ppl voting for kiel only votes for her for the cheaper waypoints?

More likely, the majority of people voting don’t use the site and have no idea what either is actually offering, and simply like the person they know and view as the “good guy”.

Did you know if you talk to Kiel or Evon INGAME you can ask them what they promise?
If people can’t read, it’s their problem, but it’s not an excuse for why Kiel is winning.

Personally I think ppl vote for Kiel because it’s “against RNG boxes” and not really because of cheaper waypoints. On the other hand, most Evon supporters are voting for the fractal, which is more stupid imo, maybe Abaddon sounds better, but it doesn’t mean it will be actually better.

Since we don’t know the true numbers, Anet can chose whichever candidate they want. Maybe they’ll be honest with the election, maybe not. We will never know. The only thing I know for sure that whichever candidate wins, the other party’s biggest supporters will cry and whine about it and will accuse arenanet for cheating…

Gratz to the team that worked on the update, I honestly didn’t think it’d be this close. I honestly thought there was imbalance in the race (and it appears as though there is a very slight one) but this is much closer than I was expecting. Nice work guys.

Gery.2718:

Grimwolf.7163:

RainbowSyrup.4130:

why do I have a feeling 80% of the ppl voting for kiel only votes for her for the cheaper waypoints?

More likely, the majority of people voting don’t use the site and have no idea what either is actually offering, and simply like the person they know and view as the “good guy”.

Did you know if you talk to Kiel or Evon INGAME you can ask them what they promise?
If people can’t read, it’s their problem, but it’s not an excuse for why Kiel is winning.

Personally I think ppl vote for Kiel because it’s “against RNG boxes” and not really because of cheaper waypoints. On the other hand, most Evon supporters are voting for the fractal, which is more stupid imo, maybe Abaddon sounds better, but it doesn’t mean it will be actually better.

Since we don’t know the true numbers, Anet can chose whichever candidate they want. Maybe they’ll be honest with the election, maybe not. We will never know. The only thing I know for sure that whichever candidate wins, the other party’s biggest supporters will cry and whine about it and will accuse arenanet for cheating…

Of course ANet will cheat. You don’t honestly believe that the players have any real influence on the outcome of this election, do you? The outcome was decided weeks ago. That’s why Facebook’s vote count appears to be so close and why you cannot view the vote count in real time in-game. It’s all a sham meant to draw players into the game to grind for hours upon hours in hopes of deciding the fate of Tyria.

And you guys bought it…hook, link and sinker.

Gery.2718:

Personally I think ppl vote for Kiel because it’s “against RNG boxes” and not really because of cheaper waypoints. On the other hand, most Evon supporters are voting for the fractal, which is more stupid imo, maybe Abaddon sounds better, but it doesn’t mean it will be actually better.

Voting for what sounds better is stupid? And you think it’s more stupid than voting based on something that isn’t actually tied to the election?

I honestly expect Kiel to win.

I have a handful of friends that aren’t really following the living story, they just log in and play. IE super casuals, which I would assume is the majority of the player base. I have asked them who they’re voting for, and they said the “human, lady, good guy”. . . They really don’t follow the living story, and don’t know much about Guild Wars lore, so I can see the casual playerbase voting for the more likable person. (likable as in you’d probably vote for this guy IRL if this were an actual election)

Elbegast.6970:

Of course ANet will cheat. You don’t honestly believe that the players have any real influence on the outcome of this election, do you? The outcome was decided weeks ago. That’s why Facebook’s vote count appears to be so close and why you cannot view the vote count in real time in-game. It’s all a sham meant to draw players into the game to grind for hours upon hours in hopes of deciding the fate of Tyria.

And you guys bought it…hook, link and sinker.

1) There is literally no point in rigging it other than working on the fractals in advance.

2) It’s doubtful that the fractal will be released anywhere near the conclusion of the election, making rigging it completely pointless.

3) The potential for a leak on the election being rigged is exceedingly risky for Arenanet’s reputation. It would be financial suicide if they were caught.

So, high risk, no reward. Yeah, sure.

This will not end well.
I don’t know how this political storyline was even green-lighted to be implemented, let alone who decided on the ‘campaign promises’ that were the worst they could have possibly selected as well as assigned to which candidate. This single event has highlighted several of the most heated subjects amongst passionate players as the prime aspects of this release…and not in a good way.

• It has turned a massive spotlight onto the argument against the persistent implementation of RNG boxes. One argument is that a vote for Evon is a vote for continued and increased RNG box implementation, as it is seen as an opportunity for players to voice their acceptance and approval for its continued use with the Black Lion Key discount.

• They’ve pitted a human against a charr, and worse, a human female against a charr male. This has put the passionate role-players into a frenzy. Apart from the dynamics of politics in lore for humans and charr generally not meshing well, they’ve now given a prime opening for speciesism to introduce itself. Due to Ashford’s assassination, the Captain’s Council now consists of 3 humans, 2 asura, 1 norn, and 1 charr (no Sylvari at all?). Some players feel that this election is a good opportunity to take a step toward further balancing the representations of the species of Tyria on the Council by filling Ashford’s position with a charr instead of yet another human. A vote for Kiel is seen as a vote against charr and of increasing human domination of the Council. It is also an opening for the all too real gender discrimination issue, especially in relation to a role of power, to rear its ugly face in the game world.

• Hot on the tail (no charr pun intended) of those elements is the overwhelming hatred for Trahearne and the aspect of NPC story characters taking all of the credit for our actions. Just as he is seen by the majority of players as doing nothing but stealing the glory that was meant for us, the players, that view has now been tacked directly onto Kiel. The painting of Kiel as being Trahearne 2.0 (or Kormir 3.0 to some), that despite her actions (or lack of actions) during these events, as well as after, her receiving all of the credit and glory just as Trahearne did during our Personal Story has placed her in a very poor light in many players’ minds. This brings to the forefront a lot of the sour feelings players have regarding the Personal Story and of feeling cheated. So, one argument is that a vote for Kiel is the approval from players of ArenaNet continuing to have characters that reap all of the credit and glory from our actions.

• It has pitted the telling of the “New” (Thaumanova Reactor) against the telling of the “Old” (Fall of Abaddon). They’ve essentially made it a debate of GW1 Lore Vs. GW2 Lore and which is more important, especially since there seems to be many players with strong emotions tied to GW1 who believe GW2 has changed and strayed too far from GW1. So they have also made it a fight between those who enjoy GW2 for what it is and will become, and those who wish GW2 was just GW1 with better graphics. Thus making it into a vote for Evon as being a vote for “Established Lore/GW1”, and a vote for Kiel as being a vote for “New Ideas/GW2”.

Pro-RNG VS Anti-RNG
Charr VS Human
Male VS Female
Evon VS Kiel/Trahearne 2.0
Abaddon VS Reactor
GW1 VS GW2

All of this will end very, very badly for many players and for ArenaNet. Many players have such strong feelings toward some of these issues that there may be a portion of the playerbase that are so dissatisfied with the outcome of this election, regardless of who wins, that they actually quit playing due to how it might sour the game and it won’t be fun for them anymore.

Even still, there are the “Temporary Content VS Permanent Content” aspects of this event and many others I’ve not touched onto here, as well as the “Bugs Fixed VS Bugs Created” aspect of more frequent Living Story updates.

I just cannot believe that someone at ArenaNet thought any of this would be a good idea for events, let alone all of them at the same time in the same event. This reeks of being a horrible idea in all possible ways. Unless you want to risk losing your job, your customers, your friends, or a few teeth, it is just accepted that you do not involve two subjects for discussion: Religion and Politics.

Not to put down the seriousness of all the aspects I’ve mention, as they are all of a pretty serious nature for the future of the game, but anyone want some popcorn?

StinVec.3621:

Pro-RNG VS Anti-RNG
Charr VS Human
Male VS Female
Evon VS Kiel/Trahearne 2.0
Abaddon VS Reactor
GW1 VS GW2

An excellent summary of the candidates (I agree with the whole post but it seemed churlish to quote all of it) and maybe the above could be used as a checklist for voters. Working through it I came out with a 4:2 in favour of Kiel (if she were a charr and Evon, she’d have got the lot).

I wonder where other people sit on the continuum.

What those are real numbers? The playerbase must be almost non existent if thats for real.

StinVec.3621:

Pro-RNG VS Anti-RNG
Charr VS Human
Male VS Female
Evon VS Kiel/Trahearne 2.0
Abaddon VS Reactor
GW1 VS GW2

All of this will end very, very badly for many players and for ArenaNet. Many players have such strong feelings toward some of these issues that there may be a portion of the playerbase that are so dissatisfied with the outcome of this election, regardless of who wins, that they actually quit playing due to how it might sour the game and it won’t be fun for them anymore.

Even still, there are the “Temporary Content VS Permanent Content” aspects of this event and many others I’ve not touched onto here, as well as the “Bugs Fixed VS Bugs Created” aspect of more frequent Living Story updates.

I just cannot believe that someone at ArenaNet thought any of this would be a good idea for events, let alone all of them at the same time in the same event. This wreaks of being a horrible idea in all possible ways. Unless you want to risk losing your job, your customers, your friends, or a few teeth, it is just accepted that you do not involve two subjects for discussion: Religion and Politics.

Not to put down the seriousness of all the aspects I’ve mention, as they are all of a pretty serious nature for the future of the game, but anyone want some popcorn?

I guess this is ArenaNet breaking the fourth wall in terms of storytelling. In none of the past updates have there been this much discussion on the living story. In this case it’s more like heated debate. It does seem that many players are taking this election very seriously because it will supposedly determine the direction the game will be going on. I say supposedly because I doubt that, outside of incorporating player feedback, ArenaNet will decide the future of the game based on a virtual election that not everyone takes seriously.

As for people quitting the game because the candidate they voted for lost, I think that would be taking it really far. Any reasonable person would stay with the game if they’re enjoying and leave, either temporarily or permanently, if they’re not. They won’t leave because more than half of the player base wanted something really trivial they didn’t and vice versa. I say that it’s trivial because the discounts willy only last 4 weeks and I’m sure whichever fractal is chosen will be really well done if the last two dungeons are any indication of ArenaNet’s dungeon crafting prowess. Story-wise I don’t think there is going to be too much of a difference over which candidate is elected.

I’m sure all those people that bought tokens to support one candidate over the other will be sorely disappointed if their chosen candidate actually ends up losing. It’s inevitable. ArenaNet came up with a clever way for players to part with their hard earned gold and thereby curb in-game inflation, if just ever so slightly.

Celestina.2894:

Venirto.4208:

Good. Im going to add another 200 votes for Kiel this weekend.

No charrs in charge.

You could have used that chance to spell it has charrge

But no, you had to go with charge

Shame upon your family!

Charrles In Charrge?
I remember that show
If it had Charr in it I’d have actually watched it…and maybe even liked it.

Elbegast.6970:

Of course ANet will cheat.

Pack up or shut up. If the former, can I have your stuff?

zeromius.1604:

StinVec.3621:

Pro-RNG VS Anti-RNG
Charr VS Human
Male VS Female
Evon VS Kiel/Trahearne 2.0
Abaddon VS Reactor
GW1 VS GW2

All of this will end very, very badly for many players and for ArenaNet. Many players have such strong feelings toward some of these issues that there may be a portion of the playerbase that are so dissatisfied with the outcome of this election, regardless of who wins, that they actually quit playing due to how it might sour the game and it won’t be fun for them anymore.

Even still, there are the “Temporary Content VS Permanent Content” aspects of this event and many others I’ve not touched onto here, as well as the “Bugs Fixed VS Bugs Created” aspect of more frequent Living Story updates.

I just cannot believe that someone at ArenaNet thought any of this would be a good idea for events, let alone all of them at the same time in the same event. This wreaks of being a horrible idea in all possible ways. Unless you want to risk losing your job, your customers, your friends, or a few teeth, it is just accepted that you do not involve two subjects for discussion: Religion and Politics.

Not to put down the seriousness of all the aspects I’ve mention, as they are all of a pretty serious nature for the future of the game, but anyone want some popcorn?

I guess this is ArenaNet breaking the fourth wall in terms of storytelling. In none of the past updates have there been this much discussion on the living story. In this case it’s more like heated debate. It does seem that many players are taking this election very seriously because it will supposedly determine the direction the game will be going on. I say supposedly because I doubt that, outside of incorporating player feedback, ArenaNet will decide the future of the game based on a virtual election that not everyone takes seriously.

As for people quitting the game because the candidate they voted for lost, I think that would be taking it really far. Any reasonable person would stay with the game if they’re enjoying and leave, either temporarily or permanently, if they’re not. They won’t leave because more than half of the player base wanted something really trivial they didn’t and vice versa. I say that it’s trivial because the discounts willy only last 4 weeks and I’m sure whichever fractal is chosen will be really well done if the last two dungeons are any indication of ArenaNet’s dungeon crafting prowess. Story-wise I don’t think there is going to be too much of a difference over which candidate is elected.

I’m sure all those people that bought tokens to support one candidate over the other will be sorely disappointed if their chosen candidate actually ends up losing. It’s inevitable. ArenaNet came up with a clever way for players to part with their hard earned gold and thereby curb in-game inflation, if just ever so slightly.

Who fills the seat on the council will impact any future living story stuff that involves LA. Kiel would propose radically different measures to solve a crisis than Gnashblade. And they would also pounce on different opportunities when they arise. Gnashblade might go for things that will enrich LA, while Kiel might be more interested in things that help protect LA and the surrounding areas. And that will shape the Living Story content in the months/years to come.

So… it looks like Magnus will have 2 votes in the council breaking the balance? Not cool.

I like Magnus but him having 2 votes (Kiel is his Robin, she will do EVERYTHING he commands and Kiel lacks a lot of personality) on the same individual on a council of equals breaks the power balance.

Just some reminders hoping to affect the final outcome:

- If you’re voting the pretty face, Evon’s first mate is human female and prettier than Kiel.

- If you’re voting for the human, take in consideration that you’re really voting for a Norn (Magnus) as Kiel winning only means 2 votes for Magnus. Aditionally Evon offers the most important battle for humanity in a fractal.

- If you’re voting for the waypoints, take in mind that it is a temporal thing, so you will save like… 30 silver maybe? No big deal compared with permanent content.

- If you’re voting to punish RNG, take in consideration that Evon is just the NPC, it’s an outside game lore decission (and if you’re blaming Evon for that, start blaming him for being able to trade quickly, finding what you want to buy or selling really fast anything you got). Aditionally current iteration of the RNG is akittens best as now you can buy the skins from players so you don’t need to take risks.

If Evon loses, he’ll probably get mad and increase the taxes on the TP. He does after all have to recover that money he’s been giving out, which of course is funded using those taxes.

I wonder how the guy from this thread felt when he read that.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/livingworld/cutthroat/Better-get-busy-kiel-supporters/first#post2487622