Guild Wars 2

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Elephant in the room: the heavily implied lesbian innuendo. The fact is that not everyone likes, agrees with, or is comfortable with homosexuality. It could be that they find the physical act to be disconcerting. It could be that they don’t agree with notion of contemporary homosexuality as a whole.

Why should the entire GW2 player base be limited to what you’re comfortable with? Whether it makes your comfortable or not, it’s part of the world as it is.

It’s funny you complain about the Living Story being bland, when it’s likely a desire to avoid making people like you uncomfortable that’s the primary source of that blandness. Everyone has things that make thing that make them uncomfortable. If we cut them all out, you’re left with bland inoffensive papp.

Some of us actually enjoy stories that make us uncomfortable; pushing ourselves out of our comfort zones is how we grow as a person.

Stormy Dragon.9210:

Some of us actually enjoy stories that make us uncomfortable; pushing ourselves out of our comfort zones is how we grow as a person.

I would like to point out that the argument of “Why should the entire GW2 player base be limited to what you like” can be used against you and those of the same mindset. Why should those who don’t wish to leave their comfort zone be forced to just because a few individuals actually find such content enjoyable? Why must those who have a problem with a certain type of content be forced to be silent simply because the content is connected to political agendas?

If one truly wishes to “grow as a person” then wouldn’t having a intellectual debate on the matter accomplish more than playing the actual content?

I know there will be individuals who will try and make themselves sound noble or righteous, but in reality the answer is quite simple. Everyone is selfish, just not in the same manner. Those of similar interests or mentalities will group together and proclaim their supposed superior simply because they now working in a group. In reality this is a temporary alliance, nothing more and nothing less, as once the goal has been achieved the group begins to splinter and turn on itself.

Shinzan.2908:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Elephant in the room: the heavily implied lesbian innuendo. The fact is that not everyone likes, agrees with, or is comfortable with homosexuality. It could be that they find the physical act to be disconcerting. It could be that they don’t agree with notion of contemporary homosexuality as a whole.

Such people and opinions are best ignored.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

It could be something less, like how many don’t like how the fanservice angle is patronizing men, or how their sexuality is being used to crutch an otherwise uninteresting story, thus exploiting the entire demographic.

…However that’s just video games for you, you could say the same about the design of female armor being eyecandy in general. Yet people point out this particular instance when it’s on par with the rest of GW2’s design and writing, which makes me think that a lot of them are actually complaining for the first set of reasons yet trying to hide their own issues by claiming it’s for the last one.

Pretty much this. Was going to point this out myself. Most of female armors I see running around are skimpy as hell, with tons of skin revealed (and don’t get me started about that underboob armor and T3 sets). That’s not something I want to see in this game because it doesn’t attract me, but there is no use complaining about what other people like. And you have 2 story important, interesting, and fairly well dressed ladies and everybody goes apekitten because they’re dating? Even if you aren’t on the side who is bothered by both, that’s just plain hypocrisy right there.

knbBlackTemplar.3059:

I don’t care if Kasmeer and Marjory are in love.. i just don’t want to see ANY romantic stuff, we have way too more important things to do instead of look at two people flirt patch after patch after patch.

Ah, you don’t like having Kasmeer and Marjory shoved down your throat? Well tough. You will swallow it and you will like it!

I do care about the relationships the characters have with each other.

Daroon.1736:

Nope. The original Destiny’s edge and your mentors story were probably the most engaging storytelling in GW2, but even that ‘got lost’ during the middle part of the personal story when you were ‘encouraged’ to travel to all the dungeons to see how DE got back together and Trahearne took over .

this x1000. And I really need to put my foot down to all of the people who keep saying “but what about Logan and Jennah? wHAT ABOUT LOGAN AND JENNAH THO THEIR RELATIONSHIP IS SAPPY AND DUMB TOO” no stop. Logan and Jennah are super interesting to anyone who read the book. They have the most destructive, disgusting, abusive, and f-ed up relationship in the entire game. Jennah is one of my most favorite duplicitous characters in modern gaming. She acts all noble and regal and kitten, but in reality she’s an extremely powerful mesmer who’s a master manipulator and is literally holding Logan captive as a mind slave (and probably a sex slave too lbr). He probably doesn’t even really actually love her. Probably never did.

Here’s how their relationship happened:

>Logan, Rytlock, and Caithe are extremely famous gladiators in Lion’s Arch
>Jennah walks into the arena in Lion’s Arch
>she casts an aoe spell so that everyone in there loves her to neutralize any threats against her that might be present, though when she’s asked if she did such a thing, she denies it
>Logan gets hit by it way harder than anyone else probably because of his latent psych issues involving his bro and the queen (his older brother was Jennah’s personal guard and Logan always felt like he was in his brother’s shadow)
>he wanders up to her like a kitten
>Jennah looks at him and realizes what a powerful tool he’d be if she were to use him as her own blunt little instrument
>she locks eyes with him and basically stakes her claim on him
>the gate to total mindslaving has been opened
>Logan walks right through like an idiot and lets her enslave his mind without realizing he’d even done it.

Throughout the rest of the book, while Destiny’s Edge is off adventuring and killing dragon minions, Jennah keeps sending letters to Logan in order to further cultivate his bond to her. She manipulates the kitten out of him, and she’s not even really all that subtle about it. She keeps giving him the illusion that he still has free will and the power to choose. Her letters all kind of read like, “I COULD forbid you from doing this, and I WANT to forbid you from doing this, but I WON’T because I’m so good to you don’t you think I’m good to you look at all of the free will you still have this is totally a decision that you’re making free of my influence. I need you to believe this now so that it will be easier to manipulate this in your mind when I strip your choices away from you and force you to act without your consent.” About four months into their relationship, even though they haven’t seen each other face to face in that whole time, Jennah already has complete control over Logan’s perceptions of himself and of their relationship.

Even the whole thing with Kralkatorrik and Snaff’s death — when Logan “ran away” — he wanted to resist abandoning DE for Jennah. He even tried. His struggle lasted approximately three whole godkitten seconds before Jennah’s summoning of him was too much for him to fight against. Logan doesn’t blame her for what happened. He gets mad when anyone else does. But it’s 100% her fault, and I’m disinclined to believe he would have left DE if he hadn’t been forced to via magic.

Close to everything in the game itself that Logan does in regards to Jennah and protecting Kryta is actually just Jennah working through him. Worst of all, a part of him knows it. Like, he doesn’t know, but he knows. There are little things he says throughout the course of the game that if you pay attention you can really pick up on as tiny little glimpses of self-awareness in regards to his relationship — his REAL relationship — to the queen. I actually think it would be super interesting if, in an expansion (because it wouldn’t work as a Living Story imo), the spell was somehow broken and Logan was finally able to clearly see what she’s been doing to him for all these years.

It’s absolutely disgusting what she does to him, and I love every second of it, because it’s not something you see very often. Attached pic related. I’m not exactly sure, he says. Holy crap I lost it when I read that line. Don’t you dare compare Marjory and Kasmeer to Jennah and Logan. The former will NEVER be as powerful, complex, or interesting as the latter. Sorry for the long post. I just have a lot of feelings about Logan and Jennah ok.

warbreaker.8154:

I just have a lot of feelings about Logan and Jennah ok.

I know this will be viewed as off topic but I got this idea from your long post. Could it be possible that Jennah is the personal nemesis I read several individuals claim Anet promised? Could it be also possible that Scarlet also fell victim to Jennah’s manipulations and that was why the Arcane Council permitted her to study at their esteem colleges? Perhaps this is why Scarlet has attempted at least on one occasion to attack the queen.

Wait so you’re telling that Logan is literally mesmerized this all time? That’s freaking sad.

Thank god, I thought I was the only one utterly tired of the Marj/Kas “relationship”. They both aggravate and bore me. I’m a pansexual female, so it has nothing to do with me being “uncomfortable”, believe me. It’s amazingly ham-handed the way they shoehorn lesbianism into every. Single. Conversation. I get it, ok? They really like each other. It could be two dudes or a man and a woman instead of two women, I’d be just as annoyed by the constant talk of their own relationship. It’s ESPECIALLY annoying (and somewhat degrading) to constantly shove in out of place sexy references to being constantly naked and the like. Again, this would aggravate me no matter who the people involved were.

The Logan/Jennah thing annoys me also, but as others have mentioned, Logan is actually under Jennah’s magical influence, so I give him a pass for that. Really, I feel sad for him more than anything else. She won’t let him go, but she also won’t throw him any bones. He’s just her pet. =/ (Also, devs: PLEASE make it more obvious in the actual game that Logan is under the effects of Mesmer magic. Almost no one understands that because it’s only in the book, and it makes Logan seem like a real idiot.)

I’m just curious… why lesbians are ok but gays would give kittenstorm?

@EDIT:
I have nothing to their relationship if Jory or Kas (or both) will die.

CharrGirl.7896:

Wait so you’re telling that Logan is literally mesmerized this all time? That’s freaking sad.

Golgathoth.3967:

The Logan/Jennah thing annoys me also, but as others have mentioned, Logan is actually under Jennah’s magical influence, so I give him a pass for that. Really, I feel sad for him more than anything else. She won’t let him go, but she also won’t throw him any bones. He’s just her pet. =/ (Also, devs: PLEASE make it more obvious in the actual game that Logan is under the effects of Mesmer magic. Almost no one understands that because it’s only in the book, and it makes Logan seem like a real idiot.)

yeah when I first played through the human storyline, since my first character was a human, I thought Logan was kind of a dipkitten. But now that I’ve read the book, I really just feel terrible for him. In the one personal story mission where you and Trahearne go through Orr with the Pale Tree, you see Logan and Rytlock arguing over what happened to Snaff, and Logan kittening says, “Someone would have died either way! Any one of you would have made the same choice…” Like, that’s how he justifies it to himself. It’s really kittening sad to watch him go through the mental gymnastics required for him to fit into the version of reality that Jennah has fed to him.

In all honesty, Jennah probably would have been fine even if Logan hadn’t been there. And how many people have died because of Kralkatorrik since that day — people who would still be alive if Logan had been there and DE had killed the dragon? I just. Ugh. I feel like there’s no closure for him. Sure, DE got back together and everyone forgave him, but it’s pretty obvious that he still doesn’t forgive himself because he still has that lingering feeling that he made the wrong choice… because he did… because it wasn’t the choice he would have made if it had really been up to him to decide. But that’s just how his story ends. At least for now. :c

warbreaker.8154:

CharrGirl.7896:

Wait so you’re telling that Logan is literally mesmerized this all time? That’s freaking sad.

Golgathoth.3967:

The Logan/Jennah thing annoys me also, but as others have mentioned, Logan is actually under Jennah’s magical influence, so I give him a pass for that. Really, I feel sad for him more than anything else. She won’t let him go, but she also won’t throw him any bones. He’s just her pet. =/ (Also, devs: PLEASE make it more obvious in the actual game that Logan is under the effects of Mesmer magic. Almost no one understands that because it’s only in the book, and it makes Logan seem like a real idiot.)

yeah when I first played through the human storyline, since my first character was a human, I thought Logan was kind of a dipkitten. But now that I’ve read the book, I really just feel terrible for him. In the one personal story mission where you and Trahearne go through Orr with the Pale Tree, you see Logan and Rytlock arguing over what happened to Snaff, and Logan kittening says, “Someone would have died either way! Any one of you would have made the same choice…” Like, that’s how he justifies it to himself. It’s really kittening sad to watch him go through the mental gymnastics required for him to fit into the version of reality that Jennah has fed to him.

In all honesty, Jennah probably would have been fine even if Logan hadn’t been there. And how many people have died because of Kralkatorrik since that day — people who would still be alive if Logan had been there and DE had killed the dragon? I just. Ugh. I feel like there’s no closure for him. Sure, DE got back together and everyone forgave him, but it’s pretty obvious that he still doesn’t forgive himself because he still has that lingering feeling that he made the wrong choice… because he did… because it wasn’t the choice he would have made if it had really been up to him to decide. But that’s just how his story ends. At least for now. :c

I never would have thought really. Even though it could be kind of obvious since Jennah is a mesmer. And Countess Overkill (Anise, I call her like that because she can summon like, 10 illusions:P).

My question is, if this is such an important story element, why must we learn from it outside the game?

Or maybe, he grew to love her anyway? Do mesmer illusions really last that long?…

Golgathoth.3967:

Thank god, I thought I was the only one utterly tired of the Marj/Kas “relationship”. They both aggravate and bore me. I’m a pansexual female, so it has nothing to do with me being “uncomfortable”, believe me. It’s amazingly ham-handed the way they shoehorn lesbianism into every. Single. Conversation. I get it, ok? They really like each other. It could be two dudes or a man and a woman instead of two women, I’d be just as annoyed by the constant talk of their own relationship. It’s ESPECIALLY annoying (and somewhat degrading) to constantly shove in out of place sexy references to being constantly naked and the like. Again, this would aggravate me no matter who the people involved were.

To be completely honest, this is how most couples act like when they first start dating. There is nothing weird or “out of place” here. They’re acting like lovestruck puppies and that’s normal. And trust me when I say, it’s much less “annoying” (to me it’s not, I want more of it ) then real life couples who act like this, even more so. Or that couple you see making out in public transport. Or that couple you see kissing in the middle of the street. Now that is something that can make you feel uncomfortable, even if you’re in a relationship yourself.

I say it’s handled well. And there is nothing wrong in liking it. Can’t argue with that. If you dislike it, then turn away from it. It doesn’t affect you in any way.

I like it. It adds something called chemistry. The story don’t have to be serious 24/7, then the story would have been boring.

I’m not interested in the NPCs and their relationships, but I don’t hate them either.

I only care about making high-DPS characters that look good and the greatest powers (dragons, gods, demons, etc.).

The petty and mundane lives of NPCs are not my concern, I am just here to slay the divine and smash the heavens.

Darkbattlemage.9612:

I would like to point out that the argument of “Why should the entire GW2 player base be limited to what you like” can be used against you and those of the same mindset. Why should those who don’t wish to leave their comfort zone be forced to just because a few individuals actually find such content enjoyable? Why must those who have a problem with a certain type of content be forced to be silent simply because the content is connected to political agendas?

So Anet shouldn’t show people of color in their stories either because it makes some people (racists) uncomfortable?

CharrGirl.7896:

Wait so you’re telling that Logan is literally mesmerized this all time? That’s freaking sad.

I’m sure it’s just bad writting. It seems like he would have to be mesmerized to act the way he did but everything seems to point to the writer just thinking that yes, this is what a romance looks like.

Wait who is kasmeer anyway? I have not seen this pin in any bl before.

Shinzan.2908:

Darkbattlemage.9612:

I would like to point out that the argument of “Why should the entire GW2 player base be limited to what you like” can be used against you and those of the same mindset. Why should those who don’t wish to leave their comfort zone be forced to just because a few individuals actually find such content enjoyable? Why must those who have a problem with a certain type of content be forced to be silent simply because the content is connected to political agendas?

So Anet shouldn’t show people of color in their stories either because it makes some people (racists) uncomfortable?

CharrGirl.7896:

Wait so you’re telling that Logan is literally mesmerized this all time? That’s freaking sad.

I’m sure it’s just bad writting. It seems like he would have to be mesmerized to act the way he did but everything seems to point to the writer just thinking that yes, this is what a romance looks like.

Well, bad writing or not, this little piece of info makes the whole thing look completely different. I certainly do not expect Bioware level of writing for an MMO, but to be honest, I find myself enjoying it anyway. I don’t need a GoT style of storytelling to feel myself entertained.

And a side note, I agree with your comment about relationships. I actually think that a minority of players feel disturbed or uncomfortable by this. The rest enjoy it/ignore it.

And Souske.7268 is right. Hell, most couples I know act 100x more obnoxious and have to constantly make people feel uncomfortable with their presence. But nothing I can’t understand. It’s how you act when you feel…lovestruck lol. I mean I’m in a relationship for 5 years now and I still call my boyfriend pet names (not in front of everyone ofcourse..). Not that you need to know that, but maybe that’s why I have a very high tolerance for those things, and see relationships differently. I mean kitten , Marjory calls her “honey”. Terrifying political agenda right there.

Live and let live.

I only care about one relationship in game —my enemies and their relationship with my fist.

This isn’t one of those things that can be quickly discussed and suddenly people will change their minds from one side to the other. Either you consider same-sex dating to be fine or even normal, or you consider it not to be. And either you think it’s just adding a note of realism to the world lore or you think it’s in there to shout a message (which message you may or may not agree with).

Me, I think it’s great that love has fewer boundaries these days, and I think it should be something that occasions no comment beyond what any loving couple might cause. So I don’t feel it’s a deliberate message beyond “we’re not going to avoid same sex relationships just because they oog some people out.”

Let’s think about Jory and Kas as to whether they make sense for each other, sure. But their body shape isn’t part of that equation, not in Tyria.

Donari.5237:

This isn’t one of those things that can be quickly discussed and suddenly people will change their minds from one side to the other. Either you consider same-sex dating to be fine or even normal, or you consider it not to be. And either you think it’s just adding a note of realism to the world lore or you think it’s in there to shout a message (which message you may or may not agree with).

You are slightly inaccurate as there is a third group, a minority but still a recognizable group. This group belief doesn’t concern the morality or whatever one wants to spin the argument about homosexuality but rather they want video games to remain a free haven from the real world where they can relax and have fun without worrying about being forced to pick one side or the other.

This is a belief I actually find myself gravitating towards with each passing day as I play video games to relax. Some of the complains about Marjory and Kasmeer’s relationship seems to because it has instigated an argument over a topic that is under the political microscope.

Shinzan.2908:

So Anet shouldn’t show people of color in their stories either because it makes some people (racists) uncomfortable?

To be honest I initially replied to this but deleted the reply, feeling I didn’t spend adequate time on the matter. However I have to stand by initial reaction and say this is a rather poor counter argument. Now that I have reread it several times I feel it sole purpose was to troll.

Finnway.2183:

I only care about one relationship in game —my enemies and their relationship with my fist.

preach on!

whether you agree with it or not, at least we got 88k xp out of the deal…

timidobserver.7925:

knbBlackTemplar.3059:

I don’t care if Kasmeer and Marjory are in love.. i just don’t want to see ANY romantic stuff, we have way too more important things to do instead of look at two people flirt patch after patch after patch.

Ah, you don’t like having Kasmeer and Marjory shoved down your throat? Well tough. You will swallow it and you will like it!

I’m going to hopefully assume this post was meant as a joke.

Shinzan.2908:

I’m sure it’s just bad writting. It seems like he would have to be mesmerized to act the way he did but everything seems to point to the writer just thinking that yes, this is what a romance looks like.

So did you just not read my whole post or something? Logan IS mesmerized. It’s canon. There’s a whole godkitten 3-page scene in the book dedicated to Jennah entering his mind and taking control. I even screencapped part of it for you.

Darkbattlemage.9612:

warbreaker.8154:

I just have a lot of feelings about Logan and Jennah ok.

I know this will be viewed as off topic but I got this idea from your long post. Could it be possible that Jennah is the personal nemesis I read several individuals claim Anet promised? Could it be also possible that Scarlet also fell victim to Jennah’s manipulations and that was why the Arcane Council permitted her to study at their esteem colleges? Perhaps this is why Scarlet has attempted at least on one occasion to attack the queen.

I can’t believe I missed this before. But that was the first thing that came to my mind when I read that statement too about the “personal nemesis.” I IMMEDIATELY thought it was Jennah. I am going to screencap this comment, so that when this turns out to be the case you and I can say we totally called it first.

warbreaker.8154:

Shinzan.2908:

I’m sure it’s just bad writting. It seems like he would have to be mesmerized to act the way he did but everything seems to point to the writer just thinking that yes, this is what a romance looks like.

So did you just not read my whole post or something? Logan IS mesmerized. It’s canon. There’s a whole godkitten 3-page scene in the book dedicated to Jennah entering his mind and taking control. I even screencapped part of it for you.

I have the novel, I stand by my point, it’s just badldy written. The bond lets Jennah call to Logan telepathically but she does not control or influence his actions, his love and devotion for her does.

I like when developers put romance in games. It make their characters feel less one-dimensional. A character might be a powerful warrior, but when he’s not waging war, what is he doing? Why is he a warrior? It doesn’t HAVE to be romance, but I think an important character should be defined by more than his fighting prowesses.

Now, I don’t actually know how good or bad the Kasmeer/Marjory romance is because having to do an open world event on a 2-hours timer, with a 75% chance to hit overflow, with the complexity of a WoW raid encounter, and with random people that can ruin it at any time, just so I can unlock a story mission feels more like carrot-on-a-stick baiting than entertainment to me, and ditto with being forced into WvW for PvE-related stuff, so I’m kind of passing on those updates. To be honest, when I first heard those two were “romancing” I thought it was a combination of clumsy writing and the playerbase’s imagination making them look like lovers, (like Fang and Vanille in Final Fantasy XIII…) but apparently it’s intended, heh.

But as long as it’s well written and the characters are interesting I couldn’t care less if they were added “to attract juvenile males” (as some put it) or for whatever other reason.

But when it’s not well written AND it was added “to attract juvenile males” AND it touches subjects that are unfortunately still taboo like homosexuality, then it really leaves a bad taste in my mouth. It reeks like marketing department meddling with the story just to monetize it and ruin the story, and I hate that with passion. Again, I’m not saying that’s what this game’s developers tried to do with this update. It’s just my thoughts about those that do.

I’d also add that I find it kind of insulting as a male when developers attempt to fanservice me with stuff like that because if I wanted to see cute women loving each other I know a lot of places on the Internet for that, heh. Just give me a story you can deliver and I’ll be happy.

I’d much rather have a good story with cool characters that I’ll care for and that the writers can pull off well, than a story that tries to pull taboos right and left but that is in the end over the head of the writers. And if they can have both an excellent story and play with taboos at the same time, it’s mastery. (Games with really memorable stories always shake taboos a little.)

Shinzan.2908:

warbreaker.8154:

Shinzan.2908:

I’m sure it’s just bad writting. It seems like he would have to be mesmerized to act the way he did but everything seems to point to the writer just thinking that yes, this is what a romance looks like.

So did you just not read my whole post or something? Logan IS mesmerized. It’s canon. There’s a whole godkitten 3-page scene in the book dedicated to Jennah entering his mind and taking control. I even screencapped part of it for you.

I have the novel, I stand by my point, it’s just badldy written. The bond lets Jennah call to Logan telepathically but she does not control or influence his actions, his love and devotion for her does.

I think you need to read it again.